OCCRA
Go to Post Math is always fun, especially when it's useful. - Guy Davidson [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Events   CD-Media   CD-Spy   FRC-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-13-2002, 11:06 PM
Summmergrl2298's Avatar
Summmergrl2298 Summmergrl2298 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Collette
no team (Nonnebots)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Rindge, NH
Posts: 107
Summmergrl2298 will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to Summmergrl2298
Student Members vs. Adult Members

On a thread I had posted a few days ago, somebody commented on how adults run their team. How many of you guys feel that the adults on your team take way to much responsibilty and dont let the students do enough? (adults--please respond too! i'd love to hear your views on this also)
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-14-2002, 01:45 AM
s_alaniz s_alaniz is offline
Registered User
#0057 (Leopards)
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 73
s_alaniz is an unknown quantity at this point
Just wait until.....

Just wait until YOU have kids you have to mentor!!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist. Our team, 57 Houston, has had a lot of experience on the adult/student situation. We've only been around for 5 years but we've come to some conclusions.
Our first year our plan was to let the students design and build the robot and we would act as hands off advisors and only act when they had a problem... well, a certain group of students took control of the team and made themselves the team leaders. Bad idea...in the end, as mentors we had to take control of the team and direct the building. The temptation to be a BMOT (Big Man On Team) was too much for those students to resist and they were trying to oust other students that didn't agree with them.
Subsequent years have demonstrated how easily a team can go off track. We finally established with the students, that the final say is with the mentors but we encourage them as much as possible to express their ideas and still let students do the majority of the work with building.
I've been lucky and always had the best team to work with. I mentor the electronics team and while no student can match my 30+ years of experience, there are a few whose technical knowlege and skill make me feel pretty obsolete. That's great though! I like that! Co-incidently, they happen to be the students most willing to listen to other viewpoints, defend their position with sound arguements and swallow their pride when it's appropriate. (Someday I'm going to be able to say I mentored those kid BEFORE they walked on Mars!)
Anyway, mentors have a delicate balance of allowing students to be responsible and making sure the team completes it's objectives safely, sucessfully and on time. Ultimately, the responsibility to the team's sponsors lie with the mentors but more importantly, the last thing WE want to do is allow a team to fail just to make a point.
We try. We're not perfect... we're just mentors.


Best Wishes


Steve Alaniz



"Forget it, I already feel like my life is a comic strip." - Sally Forth
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-14-2002, 01:03 PM
Unsung FIRST Hero
Patrick Wang Patrick Wang is offline
Registered User
#0115 (MVRT Alumni)
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Cupertino, CA
Posts: 128
Patrick Wang has a spectacular aura aboutPatrick Wang has a spectacular aura about
Send a message via AIM to Patrick Wang
Setting a precidence

As a student team leader, there are several things that cross my mind whenever this sort of student/mentor issue surfaces.

As a student, I have only four years on the team, assuming I start as a freshmen.

As a student team leader, one of the things that I have made one of my highest priorities is to set a positive precidence for the team. Leave a legacy, set the team up to be self-sustaining.

What I have found out is that especially in a student run organization, there are certain things that a high-school student simply can't know, have never gone through, that's where the adult has to step in and be the adult.

What I have also observed, is that when the students, especially the older members and the leadership set themselves as a positive role-model, the new members really do take it to heart. When they live in a healthy enviroment for learning, they want nothing more than to keep it that way. As such, when those new members become the student leadership, they bring along the experiences that they have had and hope to model themselves after it.

The converse is also true, when there is or was a Big Man on the Team, often times students will try to model that behavior as well. That is something which needs to be guarded against at all cost.

just my 2cents
I would appreciate any other perspectives offered by both student and adult team leaders.
__________________
Patrick Wang

WRRF
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-15-2002, 01:05 PM
Tom Fennell Tom Fennell is offline
Registered User
#0112 (Gear Grinders)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Arlington Heights, Illinois, USA
Posts: 8
Tom Fennell is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to Tom Fennell
The Adults on our team often have real-world insight that we just lack as students, but the kids are always the ones making the plans, drawings, and even the fabrication.

-Tom
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-15-2002, 02:03 PM
Anton Abaya's Avatar
Anton Abaya Anton Abaya is offline
Registered User
None #0419 (Rambots)
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Boston
Posts: 215
Anton Abaya has a spectacular aura aboutAnton Abaya has a spectacular aura aboutAnton Abaya has a spectacular aura about
Send a message via ICQ to Anton Abaya Send a message via AIM to Anton Abaya
My situation was different.

I am the founder and was the team leader of RAMBOTS for the past two years. I was a college freshman and I was dealing with both high school students (as a mentor) as well as the "adults" of the high school administration.

Initially, it was difficult to deal with "adults." I, after all, was only a year or so older than their own sons. There was a lot of tension.

Students who have shown responsibility or ask for responsibilities, are both given that responsibility -- as well as the power to fulfill it. Responsibility comes with added benefits, but you need to be trusted to fulfill it.

So to students that want responsibility, show that you are capable of it -- or are willing to take full responsibility for it. Sometimes, adults are just afraid to give you the responsibility becuase they are afraid you might make a mistake and they will look bad. In my experience, adults are generally more uptight about mistakes because the older you are, the more people expect you to be more "responsibile." Though when you're young, you can make mistakes.

The balance ? Adults, give your kids some responsibilities (if they are worthy of it), and allow them to make their own mistakes. That's the only way to learn. Just guide them. As for Students, listen to your mentors, as they have made those mistakes already.

-anton
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-15-2002, 04:01 PM
Carolyn Duncan Carolyn Duncan is offline
The_C
no team
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: the corner
Posts: 1,314
Carolyn Duncan is a jewel in the roughCarolyn Duncan is a jewel in the roughCarolyn Duncan is a jewel in the rough
Last year I was on a team where the adults spent most of their time helping the students do things... We worked together to build something that we were mostly proud of, there was one facet of our robot which had very little student involvment and we were not at all proud of it, it was also the part that worked (or didnt work) the worst.
This year the students on 86 also do most of the building. My job this year is to be an "adult" and it is very difficult. Being only a year older than many of the students they see me as some kid who they don't have to listen to, and the adults do a very good job of keeping me on their level. I often give the students who I see working harder, or smarter, more chances to chose their work rather than appointing them to a job. Those who don't listen often get to do the les desirable jobs, ie sweeping the metal chips off the floor or holding pieces up for a long time. This year we taught kids how to use a circular saw. Some of them had never used one, they were scared until we showed them how to safely use the saw, after we put the backwards blade on right.
So to the students I ask you to realize that the college students on the team have a hard time telling you not to do something that they want to do. And the adults I ask you to have faith in the students, you never know how they will suprise you given the chance. All you have to do is guide them.
__________________
C~ya,
Carolyn Danielle

Thats C like the letter not like looking through your eyes or the large bdy of water! Just the letter C and yes it's on my birth certificate!
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-15-2002, 11:08 PM
Tom Fairchild's Avatar
Tom Fairchild Tom Fairchild is offline
Nice Guy
no team
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 308
Tom Fairchild will become famous soon enoughTom Fairchild will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to Tom Fairchild
While we haven't had any real problems on our team with college students, the impression that I've always gotten is that they have the middle-child syndrom of FIRST teams. That student<college student<mentor and that that creates a lot of dynamics in teams. I'm curious to see where I fit in next year as a college student myself.

~Tom Fairchild~, who doesn't care how well he fits in as long as he gets out of high school!!
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-15-2002, 11:16 PM
DaringCommander's Avatar
DaringCommander DaringCommander is offline
Registered User
#0524
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 12
DaringCommander is an unknown quantity at this point
Mentors Are Needed

Every team needs there mentors are they fall apart. The Mentors simply have the experience in the matters. Unfortunently this sometimes means that the Mentors take to much control and become the team. On our team though the Mentors give everyone (Student and Mentors) a democratic vote with nobody outnumbering someone else.
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-16-2002, 12:03 AM
Wayne Doenges's Avatar
Wayne Doenges Wayne Doenges is offline
We Build Robots......and Careers
AKA: Warthog
FRC #1501 (Team T.H.R.U.S.T.)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Huntington, Indiana
Posts: 5,849
Wayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond repute
Last year a student thought up the design for our arm. It worked great. Just ask team 45 or 111.
So on our team the students get involved along with the engineers. The engineers are there for the hard stuff (coeficient of friction, mass and velocity etc...).
Last year we had an engineer doing most ofthe welding. This year we have a student doing very well.
When we brainstorm, both the students and engineers get involved and we hash out the best designand then go build it.

Wayne Doenges
__________________
We Build Robots and Careers
2014 STL Regional, #1 seed, Winners with FRC Team 3284 and FRC Team 4500, Also won the Quality Award
2014 GPR #31 seed, Finalist with FRC Team 2641 and FRC Team 4150. Thanks. Also won Quality Award.
2012 BMR #7th seed, Winners Thanks to FRC Team 1756 and FRC Team 4028, UL Safety Award and GM Industrial Design Award

Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-16-2002, 01:03 AM
fs_2002's Avatar
fs_2002 fs_2002 is offline
Registered User
#0804 (TeamMetamorphisis)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Rock Hill, SC
Posts: 29
fs_2002 is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via ICQ to fs_2002 Send a message via Yahoo to fs_2002
My position is especially weird. We are a relativly large team i guess, of about 25 people, but i say that we at most have 10 who work on the robot, minus mentors. I, myself, have just graduated from high school last month, and have already started college. I don't know whether i'm a mentor, or if i'm considered a student still... I just know that i feel like i'm talking to a brick when i talk to quite a few of our mentors. They're engineers and know exactly what they're doing- they spend alot of time comming up with graphs and charts. They asked me if i could get the electrical systems up and running by tomarrow or thursday so we could get something moving soon. I finished my little task today, and they haven't gotten any where, except we finally got some plywood for our goal. I'm o-so-frustrated right now. Is this normal for a rookie team?
~bobb
Team 804
__________________
"Fundrasing?!? CHILDREN????? AHHHHH!!!!"

"The Pants command me!! Do not ignore the rubber pants!"

"Word up kids, This is POOP DOG!!!"

"I MUST HAVE TACOS!!!!!"
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-16-2002, 01:45 AM
foursixnine foursixnine is offline
Registered User
#0469 (Las Guerrillas)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 50
foursixnine is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to foursixnine
I think we have a great balance on our team. Our adults allow the kids freedom to make their own designs and concepts while the engineers work with these concepts to form a working design. Also when the team needs direction or organization they are there to provide it. I've heard rumors of teams whose adults/engineers treat it more as a class where the engineers do the just of the designing and building while the kids watch and learn. Personally I don't believe this is the best way to inspire future engineers or innovators but thats just my own opinion. There's a certain gratification students get from seeing something they've designed themselves come alive piece by piece, no matter how well engineered it may be.
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-16-2002, 04:38 PM
Happy Birthday! chrisMage chrisMage is offline
Registered User
#1028 (übergeeks)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 5
chrisMage is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via ICQ to chrisMage Send a message via AIM to chrisMage Send a message via Yahoo to chrisMage
On our team, we have two competing designs, and all of the engineers are on one side. The side with the students on it gets drowned out, even though we have scale drawings based on the real world, and the engineers have "concepts" and crude chalk drawings. They are also depending on a grey area of the rules for half of their strategy. The engineers have the most votes because all of the freeloaders on the team automatically go to their side, because "They're engineers, they always know what's right!" When the student team presents their design, the engineers pick it apart for small flaws in it. On the other side, they have no room to talk because they don't HAVE a design, they only have a CONCEPT. The mentors and engineers need to realize that this competition is supposed to be done by the students. The engineers are there to add gravity to the designs, not abstract.
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-16-2002, 10:25 PM
Marc P.'s Avatar
Marc P. Marc P. is online now
I fix stuff.
AKA: βetamarc
FRC #2836 (Team βeta)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Bethlehem, CT
Posts: 994
Marc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Marc P.
I believe there is a fine line between "helping and assistance" and "we're in charge." In that respect the term "mentor" can apply to anyone there as a resource to aide in building a robot, handling finances, etc. But when a "mentor" decides when, where, and what fundraisers are, what the team logo will be, what color the t-shirts will be, demanding certain tasks be done within a given frame of time, criticizing every aspect of work students do, refusing to acknowledge the good students do, highlighting the bad students do, it goes beyond "mentor" to "control freak." Granted, not all of our adults are like that, but there are a select few which try to exert more control than the students would desire, including decision on our team and robot names, despite literal 99% student resistance.

Food for though for all free thinking FIRST individuals.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Valued CD members GregTheGreat Thanks and/or Congrats 16 07-07-2003 12:58 PM
student leaders in a team... archiver 2001 10 06-24-2002 03:49 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:38 PM.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi