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Unread 03-18-2003, 02:32 PM
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Wow...

I just want to say that when I left 810 (to go to RIT) I never thought they would get to this point. Sure, every team has their problems, we had some last year, but this seemed to get out of hand. I really hope that you guys are back on the right track now. I know that when I left last year there was a lot of team spirit and by the end of your rookie year, 810 was truly a <i>team</i>. I like to think that Michael and I had something to do with that. It saddens me to see how things have evolved since my departure but I sincerely hope that this will just be a "lesson in FIRST" and that you can all learn from this experience. I had faith in 810 when I left and I still have it now. I know that you guys can pull together, especially with the student leaders that you have. I saw great potential in all of you last year, please use it to improve yourselves. Ian and Dan, I knew you two could lead this team, I know you can lead this team out of whatever pickle you're in.

I wish you guys luck, as an old mentor and a friend.
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Unread 03-18-2003, 03:08 PM
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Just a scenario to put this in perspective: If I'm invited to someone's house as a guest, and the host family gets into a disagreement in front of me, I do not take it upon myself to critique their lifestyle and the way they run their family, especially in a public forum.

I don't think it's very gracious or professional to argue over the "gracious professionalism" of another team.

And Mel - where have you been? Don't you remember last year when Dave and I got into that fight in the pits? We nearly maimed each other! People do crazy things when they are in the heat of competition.
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Unread 03-18-2003, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by katie86
Just a scenario to put this in perspective: If I'm invited to someone's house as a guest, and the host family gets into a disagreement in front of me, I do not take it upon myself to critique their lifestyle and the way they run their family, especially in a public forum.
Love that!
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Unread 03-18-2003, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by katie86
Just a scenario to put this in perspective: If I'm invited to someone's house as a guest, and the host family gets into a disagreement in front of me, I do not take it upon myself to critique their lifestyle and the way they run their family, especially in a public forum.

I don't think it's very gracious or professional to argue over the "gracious professionalism" of another team.

And Mel - where have you been? Don't you remember last year when Dave and I got into that fight in the pits? We nearly maimed each other! People do crazy things when they are in the heat of competition.
Katie, with all due respect, several members of our team were appalled at the way Melissa was treated. Her concerns and complaints are valid. She not only comments on what she observed, but what she experienced.

She was horribly mistreated and I cannot apologize enough to her for that.
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Unread 03-18-2003, 03:46 PM
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Of course her concerns are entirely valid! She spoke with me soon after she returned home and I could tell that she wasn't happy with the way things happened -- but I just wanted to put things in perspective.

It's hard to see things from the outside when you're so emotionally involved. Thus the analogy
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Unread 03-18-2003, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MasterZeus
Here is another example of the loss of gracious professionalism: One of the members on my team was an inspector at Cleveland. One of the robots he inspected used a hallowed out battery for the weigh-in so that it was under 130 lbs. I can't believe a team would do that. What kind of an example is this for the students?
Is this true??? Because in all honesty, a different person on my team has said that every year in joking, I repeat IN JOKING, but we would never stoop to such a low as to actually do that. That is just wrong....

I mean we all have the weight issue to deal with and we have come up with some real wacky ideas to cut weight, such as, of course the above mentioned action, drilling holes in the air tank, putting helium in the tires, and all kinds of other dumb, but logical things of reducing weight. But the logical approach is not always the most legal thing to do.

Is and/or should flipping the power switch to prove that everything is in working condition a part of the inspection checklist?? Is that how they were caught?

I want to know what penalty they faced (if any) for doing such a disturbing thing...
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Unread 03-18-2003, 09:45 PM
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Mr. Krass,

I'm not too sure if you know me by name or anything yet, but I was one of the 1 1/2 year-ers on 810 this year. I wasn't too involved in a lot of the building, but watching you work was definately a pleasure.

I'm going to go outright to say that from what I've heard in Annapolis, to what's going on right now on this message board, and how you're treated by other "team" members is simply unacceptable.

I, and many others who contributed (or attempted to keep up!) to the team, do not hold any hostility towards you, and truly, honestly, with full respect as a human being, and not something to be toyed around with, extend our thanks.

I definately respect your decision to leave the team, I would do the same in your spot. But thanks for all your donations, allocations and perspirations, and most of all, putting up with a lot of the irrevelant banter about you, which shouldn't even play a role in FIRST as is.

Although our San Jose competition is cancelled and I won't be able to see much action for the bot, I do appreciate your help along with that of all the others who have contributed, unlike some, who continue to be as a detrimental ivy on a still growing sapling.

Titles are irrevelant, actions are what make the person.

Thanks, Michael.
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Unread 03-18-2003, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elgin Clock
I mean we all have the weight issue to deal with and we have come up with some real wacky ideas to cut weight, such as, of course the above mentioned action, drilling holes in the air tank, putting helium in the tires, and all kinds of other dumb, but logical things of reducing weight. But the logical approach is not always the most legal thing to do.
Last year, I toiled endlessly in the lab trying to make electrons lighter, but alas I had no success. Everyone said I was crazy b/c electrons weight almost nothing, but I was quick to point out that there are like 10^million of them in the bot. It was very annoying to charge the bot to -10,000V before every weigh-in. I can still taste the peanut butter from that last shock at nats. Curse that Florida humidity.

On a serious note, the weigh-in is a very important part of gracious professionalism. Last year, teams called us on weight several times when we changed wings, but we had already weighed in under 130 before every match in question. If we had violated gracious professionalism so blatantly, we would have no choice but to give back the Regional Chairman's Award at Drexel.
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Unread 03-18-2003, 10:38 PM
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Well, I think we all understand the importance of gracious proffessionalism.

I think it is a waste of time to focus on the teams that dont have it. It is a serious oversight not to note how many great teams are out there, how many awesome and spirited teams at the competitions.

Just about every team at all competitions are polite and helpful to everyone. A few bad apples dont ruin the harvest.

It is in the spirit of FIRST to celebrate the best of everything, not get hung up on the worst.
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Unread 03-19-2003, 06:08 PM
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Thumbs down brute force guys bashing of M.krass

im on team 263 and dont know brute force guy or M.krass but i read the posts by the 2 of them and i dont think that if all the actions that M.krass described were true that he was unfair in his opinion of his team. so my opinion from the posts is that brute force guy was unfair and premeture in his opinion bout his mentors actions. so 810 if M.krass is anything like his bro (1 of my teamates) then u are lucky to have him as a mentor and that he ment nothing had the best intensions in his attempt to help ur team as a mentor
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Unread 03-19-2003, 07:09 PM
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Re: brute force guys bashing of M.krass

Just as a reminder from Brandon on an earlier page....

Quote:
Then lets drop it (publically). I'd rather any further 810 talk should be via PM, rather than for all of us to see. This is obviously something you guys need to work out, probably not in public for everybody to see.
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Unread 03-19-2003, 07:13 PM
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Don't start jumping on him, it was a show of support, you can't very well support someone without gett ing a message to them. Seeing as how he doesn't communictae with my brother at all, this was his only method. Perhaps a PM would've worekd, but I feel this shows even more support. On a more personal note, Mike you know I've always got your back.

See-ya
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Unread 03-20-2003, 06:37 AM
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I apologize for this post. Somehow, somebody got a hold of my password, or I left a computer on or someone in the school found a computer open with me logged in, but this post was not made by me, and does NOT reflect any of the values of team 74. I apologize for having this appear because it does show ungracious professionalism that was not to be associated with me or my team. Thank you for understanding.

We stand by the fact that we will not make agreements under any circumstances.


quote by TEAM_74

"let me say this....agreements wouldn't be unfair to me....but they'll be unfair to anyone that makes one with us. ANY team that approaches me or my team and asks for an agreement...will pay. We will screw your score up so bad....the match will likely turn out to be close to 0-0. Agreements suck!

Look at any porfessional sport...teams don't agree to let other teams win...they go for the kill. Sooooooo....here's an idea....if someone approaches you on an agreement....agree to it. Then show them what gracious professionalism is all about, and do the oposite of what they agreed to .....after all, what can they complain about, the fact that they're trying to cheat?"
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Unread 03-23-2003, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TEAM_74
Look at any porfessional sport...teams don't agree to let other teams win...they go for the kill. Sooooooo....here's an idea....if someone approaches you on an agreement....agree to it. Then show them what gracious professionalism is all about, and do the oposite of what they agreed to .....after all, what can they complain about, the fact that they're trying to cheat?"
Ok to respond to the first part. A few years ago there was an interesting situation in college basketball. A player from the UCONN womans team was about to break a points record and she twisted or broke her ankle (something like that) There was one game to go before she graduated. The next team they were up against made an agreement that basically let her hoble down the field and score her two baskets to beat this record, and in turn the other team was given the open ungaurded oppurtunity to score 4 points as well. Now I don't know how you all fell about that agreement, but I believe that was done in good faith and gracious professionalism if I have ever seen it.

Now for the second part, if you make an agreement, then go back upon it no matter how wrong it is, you either are making the agreement knowing that you are going to defy it (neither gracious or professional) or, are making the agreement on good faith, and then breaking it on even better faith which basically leads us to a pandoras box where two rights make a wrong??

That is the kicker.

Just deny it to begin with if you think it's wrong and let it go.. But be aware to see if it is being used against you in the future, and defend accordingly.
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Last edited by Elgin Clock : 03-23-2003 at 12:43 AM.
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Unread 03-23-2003, 08:59 AM
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These agreements are a horrible thing. Yes it is "legal", but not inline with FIRST's goals and ambitions. What Enron did was "legal" also, but that is because no one ever imagined something like that would be done therefore there was no law against it. If this was 2001 I could understand, but it is not. This is the 2003 game and it is 2 vs 2 nothing other than that. I know I speak for my team when I say we will not participate in any kind of agreement proposed to us. I can only hope that FIRST addresses this issue before the Championship. It is an appalling practice that undermines the ideals of FIRST. I am really disturbed that some teams want to teach students how to be the next Enron or WorldCom. People like to say that is strategy or whatever, but really just a workaround of the rules to cheat the system.
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