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Unread 02-16-2004, 12:16 AM
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Robot Collaboration

Wow. I'm in a bit of a state of shock. I've heard rumours that team 60 and team 254 were going to collaborate, but I didn't expect this.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pi...&quiet=Verbose

The robots look virtually identical to me. (aside from the fact that one is more complete than the other)

Having two teams of the quality and pedigree of 60 and 254 working together to build the same robot. Wow. All I can say is lookout.

I have so many more questions, but I'll start with how much collaboration was there?

Great job guys. Amazing.
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Unread 02-16-2004, 12:55 AM
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Re: pic: Team 254 robot....almost there!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karthik
Wow. I'm in a bit of a state of shock. I've heard rumours that team 60 and team 254 were going to collaborate, but I didn't expect this.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pi...&quiet=Verbose

The robots look virtually identical to me. (aside from the fact that one is more complete than the other)

Having two teams of the quality and pedigree of 60 and 254 working together to build the same robot. Wow. All I can say is lookout.

I have so many more questions, but I'll start with how much collaboration was there?

Great job guys. Amazing.
Our team and Team 60 have worked very closely, starting with hours on the phone and numerous emails between the teams during the design phase of this season. Each team built essentially half of the robots, with 60 machining the upper subframe and arm assembly, and 254 handling the lower frame, wheels, and programming.

Therefore, may the "rumor" be confirmed.

Also, I'd be happy to answer any other questions about the partnership, our robots, or anything else.
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Unread 02-16-2004, 12:56 AM
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Re: pic: Team 254 robot....almost there!

Why same robots? why did you guys design two of the same robots? What is the benifits of that?
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Unread 02-16-2004, 01:25 AM
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Re: pic: Team 254 robot....almost there!

By doing so, we were able to form an alliance That was never before seen.

We essentially became two teams in one.

And as one team, if either of us becomes successful, we will both feel proud for an accomplishment that we did TOGETHER.

FIRST isn't only about the robots. It's about building relationships, partnerships, and people.


Amanda M
Marketing Director
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Unread 02-16-2004, 03:58 AM
Dennis Jenks Dennis Jenks is offline
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Re: pic: Team 254 robot....almost there!

Alright, now it’s out. Team 254 and Team 60 collaborated this year to build almost identical robots. Since the questions have already started and I’m sure many are to follow I will attempt to sort everything out now.

Our teams’ friendship started back in the 2000 season when Kingman (team 60) earned the number one seed at the Silicon Valley Regional and they picked us as their ally. Our alliance went on to win the regional and over the next few years we wound up winning several events together. Sometimes they seeded and picked us, other times we picked them. As a result of our teams’ successes as well as the time spent together, our respect for each other and our friendship has grown over the years to say the least.

I guess the official collaboration thing really began back in 2001 when, during the first few weeks of the build cycle, we basically shared nothing more than our opinions regarding how we felt the game would play out that year. Our two teams went on to win the Silicon Valley regional together for the second straight year, and we (254) ended up finishing second at Nationals while Kingman finished third, both of us being knocked out by team 71, Beatty (Awesome robot).

When the 2002 game was announced it was readily apparent that traction was of a huge concern that year and we once again discussed strategy with Kingman who helped us out by giving us a lead on some incredible tread for our wheels. We went on to win a third straight regional together and this time it was Kingman’s turn to place second at Nationals while we were knocked out during the divisional playoffs.

OK, so now it’s 2003 and we have gotten to be pretty good friends. This year we shared not only our strategy, but our entire design. We would point out flaws in their design and they would point out the flaws in ours (Any one notice that we both had feet to grip the mesh last year?). Again we both had success in the regionals and each other to thank.

Well anyway after the 2003 season we decided to collaborate on building a new drive train (inspired by team 25) which we entered in the Cal Games under the name “Bionic Poofs” (Bionic Bulldogs + Cheesy Poofs) it was wicked fast and we found that working with a team from another state wasn’t as hard as it sounds. We shipped the robot back and forth and emailed the programming with no problems whatsoever.

Since we had designed it together we began this season with the intension of sharing the production load and building our drive trains together. Once again we began talking about the “how would I beat you, how would you beat me” thing and realized that neither one of us knew how this game would pan out. Eventually (actually were still refining things) we came up with what we felt was a very adaptable design which could be competitive regardless of how the game pans out and we ran with it.

Cut to the chase and basically what you will see this year from teams 254 and 60 is a design that is compilation of the ideas that were put forth by the students and engineers from both of our teams. In “the real world” when companies are faced with large tasks they seldom act alone, they work together alongside other companies which compliment their own attributes. This year our two teams felt that we could build a better product together than either one of us could have built alone, so that is exactly what we did.

Will we continue to work together in the future?
Of course, we are friends and we like and respect each other.

Will we work together on a level of this magnitude?
Who knows, this is uncharted territory for FIRST (at least as far as I know). What I do know is that the kids involved with both teams have had a chance to see what it’s like to work on a project in a real world setting. We both had different strategies coming into this and we have both had to compromise along the way in order to accommodate the needs of the other team.

To quote Amanda M (Team 60) “FIRST isn't only about the robots. It's about building relationships, partnerships, and people.” Amanda if you came up with that on your own you are intelligent beyond your years, because that is exactly what FIRST is about and I believe that that goal is much easier accomplished together than it is alone.

The steps we have taken towards building a unified team (and isn’t that what FIRST should really be considered?) will hopefully be followed by others, this type of sharing of information can only serve to enlighten everyone.

Who knows what the future will bring, right now we have the Cheesy Poofs and the Bionic Bulldogs working in unison. Will the world of FIRST one day see the Bionic Poofs? I hear there have been sightings on the West coast, who knows what’s to follow.

Last edited by Dennis Jenks : 02-16-2004 at 04:03 AM.
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Unread 02-16-2004, 04:07 AM
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Re: pic: Team 254 robot....almost there!

somehow... it seems like cheating to me

i guess it's for the best

but honestly the first thing i thought was "that's cheap..."

*EDIT

your workroom is really really neat /jealous
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Unread 02-16-2004, 04:33 AM
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Re: pic: Team 254 robot....almost there!

awesome!

That was a great detailed answer to my small question. Well i perosnally i have seen both poofs and kingman work together and alone in the competition. Their Bionic Poofd robot at calgames was great this last year. I think 254 and 60 should have a great success story for current and future teams in FIRST. I like how the teams are flushing their ideas back and forth and relating which is the optimal strategy for the game. also pouring in the ideas and also feedback on each others design to create a well balanced preforming robot. I cannot wait to see them preform this year. and who knows they might work as partners this year. that will create history!
this is crazy and i am already loveing it

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Unread 02-16-2004, 05:13 AM
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Team 60 & 254 breaking new grounds in FIRST!

I want to congratulate not just on your fine work on this year's robot, but also your courage to leap to a newer level not many people in FIRST have thought of. It is easy to talk about an idea, I've done it many times, including the idea of 2 teams working together to create a pair of robots that compliment each other in the competition of alliances. But to implement the idea, to make it happen, against all possible opposition from people who might consider this unfair or even "cheating", that takes true courage, and dedication to the purpose of your program.

Those who know these two team will agree with me, they are 2 of the most successful teams in FIRST who did very well at competition, and most important of all, made a difference on their students. This collaboration effort only tells me they want to be more successful than ever, and in my opinion, did exactly that. The message I see from this isn't "look at us, we are better than you". Instead, I see "we understand that we can learn from each other and put both teams' experience to create a better program for our students." Just look at what Amanda M said in her message. I would not believe the same thing would've been said from a student few years ago.

I still remember a time when FIRST was about "you or me". Students on my old team used to look down on rivalry teams and vice-versa. We used to have really bad attitudes against others who were successful in the competition. But things changed when alliance first got introduced, then even more so at 2001 with the game of 4 teams on an alliance, and finally when organizations like WRRF, SCRRF, IndianaFIRST got started. Now its about "you and me", and the idea that effort of a group benefit each team much more than efforts of individuals fighting against each other, with the ultimate purpose of inspiring and educating the students about science and technology.

This collaboration effort is a perfect example of how much FIRST have grown. Instead of doing the same thing all the time, these two teams always strive to better themselves every yeah, and break new grounds for others to follow. That is truly inspiring. I cannot wait to see how this is going to turn out. If anything, this got me thinking about a FIRST I never imagined could be possible.

Great job! Hats off to Team 60 and 254 for something new to this program. Like most new things, there will be criticisms as well as agreements. But it only means you are getting people to start doing their own thinking.
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Unread 02-16-2004, 07:35 AM
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Re: pic: Team 254 robot....almost there!

I think the collaboration thing is cool...But I don't like that you made identical robots and shared the work between the two teams...One of that robot scares me and you guys have just doubled my nightmares.
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Unread 02-16-2004, 08:08 AM
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Re: pic: Team 254 robot....almost there!

I agree that FIRST is intended to help spread and increase engineering knowledge, but the idea of two established teams sharing an identical design seems to have skewed the concept. I feel personally that FIRST should be about each individual team sharing the work load and the joys and the pains that come along with engineering and manufacturing its own unique design. While the idea of developing partnerships and friendships among colleagues and potential opponents is novel and advantageous, I feel that the fabrication, design, and communication that occurs as a single team creates and competes with its own robot cannot and should not be replaced.
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Unread 02-16-2004, 08:20 AM
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Re: pic: Team 254 robot....almost there!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Kixmiller
I agree that FIRST is intended to help spread and increase engineering knowledge, but the idea of two established teams sharing an identical design seems to have skewed the concept. I feel personally that FIRST should be about each individual team sharing the work load and the joys and the pains that come along with engineering and manufacturing its own unique design. While the idea of developing partnerships and friendships among colleagues and potential opponents is novel and advantageous, I feel that the fabrication, design, and communication that occurs as a single team creates and competes with its own robot cannot and should not be replaced.

I some what disagree but then again it is all about perspective...if you are a single team and work with a few mentors to build a robot that is considered a fine course of action in FIRST, and when I see this great partnership between two teams I think of it as they are mentoring each other. About building components for each other I also think this is fine. Knowing that at most of the regional I have been to at some point I am working on a robot that isn't mine, and if you team has ever gotten things machined or welded at another company, I believe that all of these examples follow what these two teams are doing. I think that this is a wonderful collaboration of minds and look forward to what they will produce in the future.
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Unread 02-16-2004, 08:26 AM
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Re: pic: Team 254 robot....almost there!

the idea of collaborating in order to design a build a robot together in my oppinion goes along with exactly what the FIRST competition is all about. FIRSt isn't about making a robot over 6 weeks, it's not about competing against other teams, though the aredaline is awesome and the comradere built is even better, but a major component about FIRST is gracious professionalism. In my oppinion, this kind of allianceship is a wonderful thing towards fullfilling the ideals of FIRST. Kudos to Teams 60 and 254
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Unread 02-16-2004, 08:30 AM
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Re: pic: Team 254 robot....almost there!

is it different? yes. but is it cheating? no, I think its perfectly acceptable. If the friendship between two teams allows them to build a better robot through a partnership that lets everyone play to their strengths, then that is exactly the kind of interaction that FIRST should encourage. the two teams are still building the parts for two robots, just in a more specialized way. as has been said, this IS the way that things happen in real life, and I don't think that it should be disallowed out of some antiquated need to preserve competition. My team has a long-standing friendship with Rage (173), and although we don't go to the extent of building the robot together, I understand the benefits of a close friendship between teams and believe that under no circumstances should it be discouraged.
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Last edited by Solace : 02-16-2004 at 11:08 AM. Reason: because I can't spell
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Unread 02-16-2004, 08:32 AM
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Re: pic: Team 254 robot....almost there!

Congratulations on pioneering an amazing new way of approaching our competition. I have a feeling that a few years from now your two teams will be the answer to a FIRST trivia question. "Which two teams were the first to build the same robot?" Next year I'm sure many other teams will follow suit.
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Unread 02-16-2004, 08:35 AM
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Re: pic: Team 254 robot....almost there!

Quote:
5.3.2.2 Cost Determination
The cost of raw material obtained by a team + the cost of non-team labor expended to have the
material processed further. Team member processing labor is not included. Example: A team
purchases steel bar stock for $10.00 and has it machined by a local machine shop that donates its 2
hours of expended labor. The team must include the estimated normal cost of the labor as if it were
paid to the machine shop, and add it to the $10.00. Exception Examples: If the team members
themselves did the actual machining, there would be no associated labor cost. If the machine shop
were part of the team, its labor cost would not apply.
Does this rule mean that the two teams have to charge each other standard hourly machining rates for the parts each made for the other? What about accounting for non-team member design, programming, assembly time? If I'm reading the rules correctly, that's the case.

Thoughts?
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