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View Poll Results: You Make The Call
No! You may NOT cut parts before kickoff. 75 67.57%
No. I can't find a rule against it but it seems wrong. 14 12.61%
Yes. If it is an off-the-shelf product, you can make it before kickoff. 22 19.82%
Voters: 111. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 12-08-2004, 03:16 AM
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YMTC: Can teams start cutting metal for 2005?

You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you can be the ref and make the call.

Based on the 2004 rules, can a team begin cutting metal before Christmas for parts that will go on their 2005 robot if they are only making parts that are duplicates of commercially available parts & assemblies?

You Make The Call!

Author's note: This YMTC was motivated by the now available AM Transmissions that has been discussed at the Andymark.biz post.
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Unread 12-08-2004, 06:12 AM
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Re: YMTC: Can teams start cutting metal for 2005?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natchez
Based on the 2004 rules, can a team begin cutting metal before Christmas for parts that will go on their 2005 robot if they are only making parts that are duplicates of commercially available parts & assemblies?
i say no. no matter how close the team-produced part is to the commercial part, they're still fabricating parts. rules are rules, and fabricating parts outside of build period and competition is against them.
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Unread 12-08-2004, 07:10 AM
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Re: YMTC: Can teams start cutting metal for 2005?

I say yes. If it's a duplicate of what is available commercially then what makes cutting it different then buying it. Other than possibly the fact that buying it pre-cut more costly.

Allison

Edit - I'm not thinking yes to something like "well lets cut plates for our gearboxes now, because we could buy them if we wanted too." I'm thinking "We have this large pile of scrap materials so let's cut off what we can use and throw it into one pile, and throw all the stuff we can't into another pile."
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Last edited by Allison K : 12-08-2004 at 12:48 PM.
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Unread 12-08-2004, 07:43 AM
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Re: YMTC: Can teams start cutting metal for 2005?

Is precutting metal any different than buying a plate of aluminum and specifying a custom size you want it cut to?

I don't think so.
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Unread 12-08-2004, 07:45 AM
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Re: YMTC: Can teams start cutting metal for 2005?

Any metal cutting means its not an off the shelf item and should not be made. Making prototypes, upgrades to old practice robots, new test bed robots even would be fine but all metal cutting should be done after the kick-off.
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Unread 12-08-2004, 08:46 AM
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Re: YMTC: Can teams start cutting metal for 2005?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerR
i say no. no matter how close the team-produced part is to the commercial part, they're still fabricating parts. rules are rules, and fabricating parts outside of build period and competition is against them.
Ditto. It doesn't matter if it is commercially available or not. Fabrication IS fabrication and that is not allowed. If they want to purchase then that is up to them but NO building.
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Unread 12-08-2004, 09:36 AM
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Re: YMTC: Can teams start cutting metal for 2005?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allison K
I say yes. If it's a duplicate of what is available commercially then what makes cutting it different then buying it. Other than possibly the fact that buying it pre-cut more costly.

Allison
That's eactly why its different. Cutting before may allow a team to save money giving them an unfair advantage over other teams.
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Unread 12-08-2004, 09:37 AM
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Re: YMTC: Can teams start cutting metal for 2005?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve W
Ditto. If they want to purchase then that is up to them but NO building.
Not so. You can not purchase new, but only re-use COTS parts, and only from last year. Notice in <R09> that COTS parts from two years back would not be allowed. It says "from previous year's robots"; is does not say "from previous years' robots."

Dontcha just love trying to obey rules written by engineers?
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Unread 12-08-2004, 10:16 AM
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Re: YMTC: Can teams start cutting metal for 2005?

<R09> Teams must fabricate and/or assemble all custom parts and assembled mechanisms on the robot by the
2004 team after the start of the Kick-off
. Mechanisms from previous year’s robots may not be used,
however, individual off-the-shelf components from previous year’s robots may be re-used to save the cost
of re-purchase of these parts IF they meet ALL of the 2004 Additional Parts and Materials Rules.

I am not sure of what you are saying Jack. If you want to use off the shelf parts from last years robot then that is OK. The mechanisms are not to be used and nothing is to be pre assembled before kickoff. I guess that some people don't understand that no means no.
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Unread 12-08-2004, 11:09 AM
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Re: YMTC: Can teams start cutting metal for 2005?

If you're cutting a piece of metal from one big rectangle into two smaller rectangles, go for it, because you're not doing anything that would be designing or whatnot. I mean, if you have a big piece of aluminum, but need a chunk off of it for something now, and you're saving the rest for build, then what's the big deal?

However, if you're doing any actual design, like figuring out what kind of base you'll want (I don't know how you do that before kickoff, unless you're RAGE), then no, you can't start prefabricating parts.

There's no real option for this, so I didn't vote above.
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Unread 12-08-2004, 11:30 AM
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Re: YMTC: Can teams start cutting metal for 2005?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian W.
If you're cutting a piece of metal from one big rectangle into two smaller rectangles, go for it, because you're not doing anything that would be designing or whatnot. I mean, if you have a big piece of aluminum, but need a chunk off of it for something now, and you're saving the rest for build, then what's the big deal? There's no real option for this, so I didn't vote above.
The way the earlier posts this were written it seemed to me people were condoning a "Cut your materials to size now and wait until kickoff day to weld it" plan off action. Not cutting a piece of material to use it for something else now or even cutting down say a 20' piece of box Al so it fits in your storage area.

Last edited by Peter Matteson : 12-08-2004 at 11:32 AM. Reason: Grammatical problems, English speak we good here. :)
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Unread 12-08-2004, 11:49 AM
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Re: YMTC: Can teams start cutting metal for 2005?

Let me start by saying that I hate "slippery slope" arguments. I think that it's the acme of foolishness to say that "If we allow (thing we're arguing about) x, we won't be able to prevent (thing everyone knows is wrong) y". If x, whether it's a ban on assualt weapons, double parking in the quad for less than 15 minutes, or pushing back against the strictest and most important rules in FIRST, isn't noxious enough to be struck down on its own vices, then we ought to let it happen.

That said, what we have here is a clear case of the slippery slope in action. For the past few years, we have seen an increase in the way we as a community are allowing ourselves to build parts. While the rules explicity address some of these ways(such as the addition of suppliers other than Small Parts), others, such as AM.biz, extreme collaboration, and the bringing of practice / spare parts robots to competitions are not, and have been driven largely by the FIRST community itself.

This cavalier attitude towards the building rules has now slipped and slided to the point that people are trying to justify cutting metal on their robot before the season begins. Don't. It's cheating. If you cut a piece of metal to use on your robot before the kickoff, you are a cheater.
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Unread 12-08-2004, 12:17 PM
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Re: YMTC: Can teams start cutting metal for 2005?

What's the difference between purchasing/stocking up on things like extra PWM cables, servos, keyed rod, wheels, etc. and cutting a piece of metal you intend to use for your 2005 robot?
In any case, you're taking the risk of not being able to use any of the stuff you're preparing based on the not-yet-released 2005 rules.
Similarly, what if you manufacture a robot base (or at least cut pieces for it) to the "standard" 30" x 36" dimensions only to find out that the "standards" have changed for 2005?
Let them (us) cut and suffer the possibility of a consequent rule change that renders the piece(s) useless.
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Unread 12-08-2004, 12:28 PM
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Re: YMTC: Can teams start cutting metal for 2005?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Verdeyen
Let me start by saying that I hate "slippery slope" arguments....

That said, what we have here is a clear case of the slippery slope in action....

This cavalier attitude towards the building rules has now slipped and slided to the point that people are trying to justify cutting metal on their robot before the season begins. Don't. It's cheating....
<slight sarcasm>
Hey Kris,

I like the slippery slope argument, so I use it a lot. But don't you think it's a little hypocritical to first say you hate it, and then proceed to use it? If you are philosophically opposed to the use of this argumentum, then keep yourself away from that slope, and use some of those God-given brain cells to fashion an argument that doesn't conflict with your chosen philosophy.
</slight sarcasm>
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Unread 12-08-2004, 12:33 PM
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Re: YMTC: Can teams start cutting metal for 2005?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Pettit
What's the difference between purchasing/stocking up on things like extra PWM cables, servos, keyed rod, wheels, etc. and cutting a piece of metal you intend to use for your 2005 robot?
In any case, you're taking the risk of not being able to use any of the stuff you're preparing based on the not-yet-released 2005 rules.
Similarly, what if you manufacture a robot base (or at least cut pieces for it) to the "standard" 30" x 36" dimensions only to find out that the "standards" have changed for 2005?
Let them (us) cut and suffer the possibility of a consequent rule change that renders the piece(s) useless.
Mark, the difference is the rules forbid you cutting the metal. That is part of fabrication. I am sorry if I offend but this is a black and white issue. White, you follow the rules and do NO work on the robot till kickoff. Black, you throw away gracious professionalism and sportsmanship and cheat as stated by Chris.

I once had a plaque on my wall that said something like this. I live by my standards, if I decide to do something against my standards I lower them so that I do not feel guilty. This is happening so often in our society. I believe that FIRST has higher ideals and that sometimes we must raise our standards to meet those of FIRST.

On the other hand, and only to throw a wrench into things, the 2005 rules are not out yet. That means that you can work to your hearts content without feeling guilty. However once the rules come out and if like last year say no building before kickoff, then you would not be able, with a clear conscience, be able to use those pieces on your robot. The call is yours and you may be the only one who knows what your actions are. Remember that if the students know what is done and we do nothing to correct the problem they will receive a lesson. I hope that it is not a bad one.
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Last edited by Steve W : 12-08-2004 at 12:41 PM.
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