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View Poll Results: YMTC
Legal! 17 33.33%
Illegal! 34 66.67%
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Unread 03-12-2005, 01:25 AM
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YMTC: Redabot brings 24 lbs of spare parts

You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you are the official and make the call. Please reference specific rules when applicable. The results of YMTC are not official and are for educational purposes only.

Redateam drives all night from Redaville and arrives five minutes before the Magnolia Regional opens their doors. Redateam only takes their tools into the regional and leaves their practice robot along with all of Redabot's spare parts in the trailer.

On Friday morning, Redabot's custom-made telescoping arm breaks; Billy-Bob goes to Redateam's trailer, disconnects Redateam's practice robot's telescoping arm, weighs all of the custom-parts ... 16 lbs, and takes it to the pit. After 16 minutes, Redabot is back in action.

Friday afternoon, the gripper gives way; Mary-Sue retrieves the spare gripper from the trailer, weighs it ... 6 lbs, and takes it to the pit. After 6 minutes, Redabot is back in action.

Saturday morning, a custom wheel breaks; Mary-Elizabeth, the sister of Mary-Sue, retrieves a wheel from the practice robot, weighs it ... 2 lbs, and takes it to the pit. After 2 minutes, Redabot is back in action.

After seeding first and assembling a seemingly unstoppable alliance, Redabot's tetra-retriever catastrophically fails during the semi-finals; Lu-Bob, Billy-Bob's brother, sprints to the trailer, weighs their spare tetra-retriever ... 4 lbs, returns to the pit, and says, "Sorry guys, the tetra-retriever weighs too much!" Redateam feverishly tries to repair the tetra-retriever with no luck. Instead of a 4 minute repair and a shot at the Magnolia Championship, it is a long ride back to Redaville with thoughts of what might have been.


Based on the 2005 Robot Rules, YOU MAKE THE CALL!
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Unread 03-12-2005, 06:57 AM
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Re: YMTC: Redabot brings 24 lbs of spare parts

In my view it would be illegal because although it wasn't carried into the venue itself, the "spare parts", aka the practice bot, weighed more than 25 pounds and was brought to the competition. I do see where you are going with this--since it wasn't physically in the venue, then should only the 25 pounds that they actually carry in by considered in what they can "bring to the compitition." So....once again the team that feels the need to "bend" the rules will interpret the actions as not having "brought" more than 25 pounds to the competition, where those that prefer to stay safely within the rules won't consider it.
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Unread 03-12-2005, 07:29 AM
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Re: YMTC: Redabot brings 24 lbs of spare parts

Quote:
<R24> Teams may bring a maximum of 25 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE PARTS, REPLACEMENT PARTS, and/or UPGRADE PARTS) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their robot at the competition site. All other FABRICATED ITEMS to be used on the robot during the competition must arrive at the competition venue packed in the shipping crate with the robot.
Not sure why this one is even in question. Redateam is illegal as soon as they arrive at the event with their entire practice robot.

Note that the limit imposed by <R24> is 25 pounds of materials at each competition event. Not in the competition venue, but brought to the event. So Redateam's arrivial with their entire practice robot - which they are obviously using as a source for spare parts - in the trailer is a violation to begin with. Whether they bring the entire machine into the building, whole or in parts, doesn't matter. Their collection of spare parts - their practice robot (they are obviously using it as such) - clearly exceeds 25 pounds (last time I checked, 16+6+2+4 > 25). QED. Redateam is in violation, and should be excluded from the competition until they lock up the spare robot and remove it from the competition site so that it is beyond reach.

<Ball four. Batter walks to first base, man on first advances. Team manager is thinking the pitchers arm may be fading, may need to replace the pitcher.>

-dave
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Unread 03-12-2005, 08:23 AM
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Re: YMTC: Redabot brings 24 lbs of spare parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
<Ball four. Batter walks to first base, man on first advances. Team manager is thinking the pitchers arm may be fading, may need to replace the pitcher.>

-dave
<off topic>
Another baseball analogy, ahhhhhh!
<off topic>
Sounds illegal.
I believe the rule states that spare parts much be "spare parts", not from another robot sitting outside in a truck or van or 2 miles down the road. The spare robot constitutes a 130 lb. spare part (singular!).
If the spare robot was dismantled and only 25 lbs. of parts were packed before the event, then it can be used on the competition robot.

Again, I don't make a good lawyer.
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Unread 03-12-2005, 11:05 AM
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Re: YMTC: Redabot brings 24 lbs of spare parts

What about stock parts? Say raw aluminum tubing or plating, blocks of delrin or the like? Or purchased motors/controllers/wire/pneumatics/etc? Are we allowed a limitless supply of those types of items if they are not modified from their original purchased form?

Just adding a twist to the mix. I'm sure their are a multitude of scenarios possible, I just want to make sure we're all playing by the same rules. Let your conscience be your guide!

BTW, our trailer will be filled with a grill and a couple tables for tailgating. Nothing like brats and burgers at a few FIRST events! No room for a practice bot even if we had one!

Sean
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Unread 03-12-2005, 11:44 AM
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Re: YMTC: Redabot brings 24 lbs of spare parts

"Practice Robot"!? They had the resources to build TWO robots and could repair their competition one? That seems a little weird to me. But if it's not legal to have more than 25lbs of spare parts, then they shouldn't have and they were rightfully DQed. Were all of the spare parts and their practice bot made within the 48-hour window?
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Unread 03-12-2005, 01:21 PM
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Re: YMTC: Redabot brings 24 lbs of spare parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Schuff
What about stock parts? Say raw aluminum tubing or plating, blocks of delrin or the like? Or purchased motors/controllers/wire/pneumatics/etc? Are we allowed a limitless supply of those types of items if they are not modified from their original purchased form?

Sean
Quote:
Originally Posted by <R23>
Teams may acquire and bring an unlimited amount of COTS items to the competitions to be used to repair and/or upgrade their robot at the competition site.
Yes.

Brats and burgers? Now I REALLY want to go to a midwest regional...

Wetzel
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Unread 03-13-2005, 10:51 AM
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Re: YMTC: Redabot brings 24 lbs of spare parts

It's well withing the realm to design certain parts to weigh under the 25LBS, in order to bring in spare parts. RAGE also was able to accomplish this, by creating an entire extention arm that only weighs 23LBS. However, we did ship the 2nd arm with our robot.
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Unread 03-14-2005, 07:27 AM
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Re: YMTC: Redabot brings 24 lbs of spare parts

A slightly different question for you (Q&A is down right now , but I will ask it there later):

If an assembly is made up of a mixture of FABRICATED PARTS and COTS parts, do you just count the weight of the FABRICATED parts if you bring the assembly or do you count all of it? The rule is not clear:

<R24> Teams may bring a maximum of 25 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE PARTS, REPLACEMENT PARTS, and/or UPGRADE PARTS) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their robot at the competition site. All other FABRICATED ITEMS to be used on the robot during the competition must arrive at the competition venue packed in the shipping crate with the robot.

So do we have to disassemble the assembly to remove the weight of the COTS parts and bring those separately?

I know last year the rule was different because we did not have a weight limit and no fix-it window. So assemblies that were not COTS were not allowed at all and you had to bring all your spare parts in pieces.
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Unread 03-14-2005, 12:32 PM
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Re: YMTC: Redabot brings 24 lbs of spare parts

This rule is NONSENCE Why should First say what you can and cannot bring into the event. This rule hurts people, it hurts the designers that had to sacrifice their family, job, relationships, and general life during build to get a machine done. Then you show up at the event do your best to run and get restricted on what you can fix. Most of all this hurts the rookie teams that need that little extra to keep there equipment running. First is also turning peole into liers. You know people are bringing in what they need to survive. And I don't blame them for having to bend the rules. This rule for next year better change or I'm leaving this for the birds.
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Unread 03-14-2005, 12:52 PM
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Re: YMTC: Redabot brings 24 lbs of spare parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriggsJr
This rule is NONSENCE Why should First say what you can and cannot bring into the event. This rule hurts people, it hurts the designers that had to sacrifice their family, job, relationships, and general life during build to get a machine done. Then you show up at the event do your best to run and get restricted on what you can fix. Most of all this hurts the rookie teams that need that little extra to keep there equipment running. First is also turning peole into liers. You know people are bringing in what they need to survive. And I don't blame them for having to bend the rules. This rule for next year better change or I'm leaving this for the birds.
Maybe using spellchecker to check the word you underlined and bolded...
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Unread 03-14-2005, 12:58 PM
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Re: YMTC: Redabot brings 24 lbs of spare parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriggsJr
This rule hurts people, it hurts the designers that had to sacrifice their family, job, relationships, and general life during build to get a machine done. Then you show up at the event do your best to run and get restricted on what you can fix.
The idea behind the build season is that you complete the robot in six weeks. The Fix-It Window is just for those spares that seem to get needed now and again.

Quote:
First is also turning peole into liers.
This is flat-out wrong. There is nothing in the 2005 FRC manual that encourages or tolerates lying. You read the manual, you build the robot, you adhere to the rules, and you compete. If you screw up somewhere in the rules, then you won't be able to compete until it's fixed.

Sure, you could lie about material costs or something's assembly after ship, but then will you be able to sign the statement on the inspection form saying you're in compliance? That's your name you're putting down there; if my team were to do something outside the rules and then ask me to sign the paper, I would flat-out refuse. If you don't have your name, you don't have anything.

Quote:
You know people are bringing in what they need to survive. And I don't blame them for having to bend the rules.
What teams need to survive should have been handled in the past six weeks. And not being able to use such disallowed items never stopped anybody. Might I remind the group of 1396's One-Day Wonder? The team had just some extrusion and other small parts, and they finished the day with a functioning robot. By the end of the Championship last year, they had autonomous that worked.

All told, I think the Fix-It Window is a good idea that just needs some bugs worked out. But that's another thread.
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Unread 04-05-2005, 01:14 AM
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Re: YMTC: Redabot brings 24 lbs of spare parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
Not sure why this one is even in question. Redateam is illegal as soon as they arrive at the event with their entire practice robot.

<Ball four. Batter walks to first base, man on first advances. Team manager is thinking the pitchers arm may be fading, may need to replace the pitcher.>
Dave, coach gave me the ole right-hand-to-the-mouth---left-hand-to-the-ear---tip-of-the-hat signal that means to pitch around such a strong lineup ... but a walk is a walk. I have sat the pine for a few weeks while the relievers got me out of the jam. With two weeks rest, I should be ready to go but my first pitch will probably be a hanging curve ball.

Everyone, please allow me to explain how I approach the YMTCs. The YMTCs that I develop basically fall into the following three categories.

1) The scenario is straight forward and covered specifically in the rules. These are meant to be a general education of specific rules and are hanging curve balls.

2) The scenario is realistic and is not directly addressed by the rules. These are meant to generate conversation over something that may happen that would leave officials scratching their heads.

3) The scenario is just silly and is not addressed by the rules. These are meant to generate light-hearted discussions about the rules.

Furthermore, the scenarios can also be divided into the following areas.

1) Game specific scenarios (scoring, penalties, etc.)

2) Robot specific scenarios (construction, robot interaction, etc.)

3) General scenarios (awards, logistics, etc.)

Thanks for letting me explain why some scenarios sometimes leave you writing, "Not sure why this one is even in question.",
Lucien
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Unread 04-05-2005, 12:38 PM
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Re: YMTC: Redabot brings 24 lbs of spare parts

you said:
Redabot's custom-made telescoping arm breaks; Billy-Bob goes to Redateam's trailer, disconnects Redateam's practice robot's telescoping arm,

An arm is an assembly, not a part.
It would have to be diassembled to be brought in.
If it was not built during a fix-it window, any drilloing, cutting, etc would have to be redone from raw stock.
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Unread 04-05-2005, 03:25 PM
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Re: YMTC: Redabot brings 24 lbs of spare parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by team1102a
An arm is an assembly, not a part.
It would have to be diassembled to be brought in.
If it was not built during a fix-it window, any drilloing, cutting, etc would have to be redone from raw stock.
Not necessarily. The violation here is that the totality of the "spare parts" exceed the 25 pound limit that the team is allowed to bring to the event. The fact that the arm is an assembly is not a violation. Under the 2005 rules, the arm would be considered a "fabricated item" (see "Section 5.2 - Definitions" of the rules). As such, it may be brought to the event intact, as an assembled whole, as long as it - along with all other fabricated items - does not exceed a total weight of 25 pounds (see Rule <R24>).

-dave
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