OCCRA
Go to Post Its never too early to start dreaming. - Robert Cawthon [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > Moderated Discussion
CD-Events   CD-Media   CD-Spy   FRC-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-26-2005, 05:54 PM
ducttapejason ducttapejason is offline
Mentor/Volunteer/Referee
None #0598 (Team Duct Tape)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 9
ducttapejason is infamous around these partsducttapejason is infamous around these parts
Send a message via AIM to ducttapejason
Worst Call Ever and Congratulations from San Jose

Let me start this post by saying how much I love teams 22 and 980. My own high school owns its entire team to Wendy Wooten, and the rest of Chatworth High School. And i always get much use from the thunderbots copier as the Pit Admin Manager.

But at the Silicon Valley Regional a 30 pt penalty was called against the alliance that was against 254. This is the most controversial thing I have seen in my 5 years of FIRST. There was no flag thrown on the play, and i will let others describe their eyewitness accounts of the events, since i did not see the exact infraction as it occurred, by i was next to the loading station and saw no flags. All that I did see was the Regional Director, a Bellarmine alumni, discussing with the head referee DURING the match. I have been a referee during the match and you never take your eyes off the game. Also the rules are that the decisions that the referees make are final, and are not subject to intervention by the teams, or anybody else including staff.

I hope that the kids of Bellarmine at least appreciate what NASA has given to them. I know that if I was handed everything, i may not be the most thankful if i did not realize it.

Congratulations to 22 and 980 for their continued success as they strive to improve themselves, and the FIRST community.

Next week I will be a referee at the Southern California event. I will make sure that impartiality will be my watchword as i try to keep the game fair and just.
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-26-2005, 06:06 PM
Brandon Martus's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Happy Birthday! Brandon Martus Brandon Martus is offline
busy.
AKA: B. Slash Kamen
no team
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Nevada, TX USA
Posts: 5,408
Brandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Martus has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via ICQ to Brandon Martus Send a message via AIM to Brandon Martus Send a message via Yahoo to Brandon Martus Send a message via Skype™ to Brandon Martus
Re: Worst Call Ever and Congratulations from San Jose

And, to test out the moderated forum (and keep this thread 'nice') this is being moved to the moderated forums. If you're new to the moderated forum, this is how it works: Any and all replies must be approved by a moderator before they are made public.
__________________
Brandon Martus
e-mail
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-26-2005, 06:11 PM
abeD's Avatar
abeD abeD is offline
Registered User
FRC #4707 (Mentor FRC#4707 Alumni FRC#710)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Ft Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 305
abeD is a splendid one to beholdabeD is a splendid one to beholdabeD is a splendid one to beholdabeD is a splendid one to beholdabeD is a splendid one to beholdabeD is a splendid one to beholdabeD is a splendid one to behold
Re: [moderated]: Worst Call Ever and Congratulations from San Jose

Well from experience from UCF and volunteering I got to stand next to the referee for the entire day. And sometimes they wouldn't throw a flag just make a note of it or tell another ref. Sometimes they wouldn't say anything at all but they would still make the call. And yes I did talk to referees during the match that doesn't mean they're not watching.
__________________
Penn Class 08
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-26-2005, 06:46 PM
jgannon's Avatar
jgannon jgannon is offline
I ᐸ3 Robots
AKA: Joey Gannon
no team
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 1,475
jgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond reputejgannon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [moderated]: Worst Call Ever and Congratulations from San Jose

It sounds to me like you're making some harsh accusations, and I'm interested to hear your rationale. I assume that the "Regional Director" to which you refer is Jason Morella. Though he is one of the founders of 254, I am certain, both by virtue of his reputation and of my contact with him, that he has more candor than to try to swing a match to his old team. Someone with a lack of integrity does not ascend to a position of managing the entire west coast for FIRST. Admittedly, it would not be a particularly good idea to distract a referee during a match, but this mistake is undoubtedly a product of human nature, not corruption. There is also no indication (from your post, at least) that this event directly contributed to the penalty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducttapejason
I hope that the kids of Bellarmine at least appreciate what NASA has given to them. I know that if I was handed everything, i may not be the most thankful if i did not realize it.
NASA provides a great deal of resources to team 254; it's no secret. You can be thrilled for their success and the strength of their partnership (compared to their early pittance of an existance) as they help to support other teams and advance the ideals of FIRST, or you can think of them as the Yankees of FIRST, a team that perennially buys victories. There are many folks on both sides of the fence, and you're free to think as you wish. We're all a little jealous of 254... we all wish we could win a regional EVERY SINGLE YEAR. However, to let jealousy overtake you, and to publicly accuse the students of being ungrateful is ingracious. I look forward to hearing other accounts of this event, but at this point I see more frustration than intentional injustice.
__________________
Team 1743 - The Short Circuits
2010 Pittsburgh Excellence in Design & Team Spirit Awards
2009 Pittsburgh Regional Champions (thanks to 222 and 1218)
2007 Pittsburgh Website Award
2006 Pittsburgh Regional Champions (thanks to 395 and 1038)
2006 Pittsburgh Rookie Inspiration & Highest Rookie Seed

Team 1388 - Eagle Robotics
2005 Sacramento Engineering Inspiration
2004 Curie Division Champions (thanks to 1038 and 175)
2004 Sacramento Rookie All-Star

_
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-26-2005, 06:54 PM
jrmjames jrmjames is offline
James Manley
#0254 (Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 1
jrmjames is on a distinguished road
Re: [moderated]: Worst Call Ever and Congratulations from San Jose

Jason,
I can understand you are upset about the outcome of the SVR. It is always difficult when a penalty decides the outcome of a very important match. However I do not believe this to be unfair. The regional director you are referring to is a very honest and fair man who I would never believe to use his place of power in that regional to manipulate the outcome in any way. Furthermore the students on team 254 work very hard and do a very good job. They also help many many other teams. They may be a very large organization now, but they started from one of the smallest teams in FIRST. They have built themselves through success and perseverance trying to make themselves into a team of sportmanship, education, and everything else FIRST stands for. Everything is not handed to them. They work very hard and deserve to be congratulated just as 22 and 980 do and the teams they played against. The finals were awesome matches with many awesome robots. The point of FIRST is education and sportsmanship so instead of pointing fingers why dont we just recognize all the hard work that was put into that regional and the good experiences that were gained from it.
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-26-2005, 10:05 PM
Cory's Avatar
Cory Cory is offline
Registered User
AKA: Cory McBride
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 6,324
Cory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cory
Re: Worst Call Ever and Congratulations from San Jose

Quote:
Originally Posted by ducttapejason
There was no flag thrown on the play
False, I was the referee standing by the red auto loader and saw the referee on the red human zone clearly throw three flags.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ducttapejason
All that I did see was the Regional Director, a Bellarmine alumni, discussing with the head referee DURING the match. I have been a referee during the match and you never take your eyes off the game. Also the rules are that the decisions that the referees make are final, and are not subject to intervention by the teams, or anybody else including staff.
If you're implying Jason Morrella is anything but impartial, and/or influenced our decisions, you're sorely mistaken. The flag was thrown perhaps 30-45 seconds into the match, the teams could not have influenced our decision. They did not even argue it. When we notified team 368, they shook their shoulders and shook our hands, there was no influencing of any sort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ducttapejason
Next week I will be a referee at the Southern California event. I will make sure that impartiality will be my watchword as i try to keep the game fair and just.
We were trying to do the same thing, and I think most people can agree that overall we were very consistent and fair with our calls. We had a very experienced referee crew. I hope you aren't trying to imply any of us had a bias towards any one team or alliance. We called infractions as we saw them, every time we saw them. I am obviously biased, but I think we were very consistent.

I won't comment on the call itself, I was on the other side of the field and saw nothing except the flags being thrown, I did, however, feel it was necessary to "set the record straight", so to speak.

Congratulations to all on a well played event, and good luck the rest of the year.

Cory
__________________
2001-2004: Team 100
2006-Present: Team 254
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-26-2005, 11:22 PM
Wetzel's Avatar
Wetzel Wetzel is offline
DC Robotics
FRC #2914 (Tiger Pride)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: DC
Posts: 3,442
Wetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond reputeWetzel has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Wetzel
Just because you didn't see it dosn't mean it didn't happen.

Just because you did not see a flag did not mean one got thrown. I don't know about San Jose, but at Annapolis we had 13 refs, and all but our head ref and head ref-in-training had flags. That makes 11 people around the field with flags to throw, and I doubt you can see all of them at once.

Aidan also instructed us to attempt to make it obvious that we were throwing a flag, as he had previously had refs who would just drop the flags on the ground, which is not at all obvious.

Wetzel
__________________
Viva Olancho!
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-26-2005, 11:57 PM
LittleKesich LittleKesich is offline
Registered User
#1097
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1
LittleKesich is on a distinguished road
Re: Worst Call Ever and Congratulations from San Jose

Hey, Im kesich from team 1097. I was there in the Marauder suit watching the final match. We heard the penalty called and were very unhappy. 2 of our members went to a computer to look through the rules. Rule number 3 states that a team is able to hit one of their own teammates that is in the loading zone. There is also a specific point in there saying that is a red team hits a blue team causing the blue team to hit a read team in the loading zone, then there is no penalty called. We found this rule once the next round had started, so there was nothing we could do about it.

But what really angers me is that between the matches we tried to show the refs out video of the match and we couldnt. We has 2 cameras taping the round and both clearly showed that our teams robot never even hit the other teams robot, and that the cheesypoofs team hit out teams bot in the loading zoan under their own power.

I realize that there is nothinbg that can be done about this now, but i would like to make this little fact evident to the other teams incase it occurs again some way or another.

Thanks,
-Kesich
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-27-2005, 01:12 AM
ARcanUSNUMquam's Avatar
ARcanUSNUMquam ARcanUSNUMquam is offline
2 AM Prodekshuns
AKA: Joman Chu
FRC #0254 (Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 19
ARcanUSNUMquam is just really niceARcanUSNUMquam is just really niceARcanUSNUMquam is just really niceARcanUSNUMquam is just really niceARcanUSNUMquam is just really nice
Send a message via AIM to ARcanUSNUMquam
Re: Worst Call Ever and Congratulations from San Jose

I refer you to this post: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...0&postcount=35

If that round was rigged or messed around with, I'd rather not have the tainted medal. The cloud of suspicion that this round is now embroiled in is sad, and throws controversy on the entire event.

Note: My AutoCopy for Firefox keeps deselecting in text boxes. ARGH!
__________________
Carnegie Mellon University CS 2011
Team 254 - Alumni
Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-27-2005, 01:21 AM
phrozen solyd's Avatar
phrozen solyd phrozen solyd is offline
Registered User
AKA: Adrian Santos
#0254 (Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 49
phrozen solyd is just really nicephrozen solyd is just really nicephrozen solyd is just really nicephrozen solyd is just really nicephrozen solyd is just really nice
Send a message via AIM to phrozen solyd
Re: [moderated]: Worst Call Ever and Congratulations from San Jose

We are deeply saddened and disappointed that some people may feel this way about our team, as well as FIRST Regional Director Jason Morrella.

Our team has spent the last 7 years trying to share what we have with other teams around the nation, as well as building a competitive robot. We wish we could reach out to each and every team out there, and we are always more than happy to contribute our resources for the good of others.

We also would like to express our support for Jason Morrella, FIRST Regional Director and Bellarmine alumnus. We have great confidence in the fact that he lives by the values of integrity and honesty taught at his high school alma mater.
__________________
- Adrian Santos

Team 254, the Cheesy Poofs
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-27-2005, 10:48 AM
Dr.Bot
 
Posts: n/a
Re: [moderated]: Worst Call Ever and Congratulations from San Jose

I have been involved with FIRST for seven years. So I think I can say there probably been at least one or two worse calls in FIRST history.

Firstly refs are human, the rules this year are complicated. I was head inspector at SVR, and all the rules and documentaion come in two Phone Book sized volumes. When your trying to make a quick decision on a complicated action, sometimes you can't put your finger on the correct rule.
I think the discussion between the Head Ref and the regional director was about that exact wording of the rule or rule number to explain the infraction.
I know this because after the match I was asked specifically if I knew the 'rule number' for the penalty assessed for pushing another robot and causing an unsafe condition.

Now I am a mentor for 254 - so I can't claim to be impartial, but I was on the field at the time of the action, on the opposit corner from the site of the infraction. What I saw was a red robot push 254 into another red robot that was in the human loading zone. I did not see a flag thrown either - but I wasn't in a position to see a flag of any color on the floor.

My understanding (opinion) of what the reason for the penalty was, by pushing a blue robot into a red robot, the red alliance was causing an unsafe condition, and the possibilty that a human (red) player would get hurt. (I believe this is called "causing a cascade.") Whether this is fair or not or deserved a 30 point penalty, I'll leave it up to others to decide. Now I don't like winning because of a penalty or questionable call, and I like losing because of one even less. Sometimes it happens. I don't think this was a bad call, but bad calls and mistakes are part of any game - you need to accept it and move on.
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-27-2005, 12:54 PM
ducttapejason ducttapejason is offline
Mentor/Volunteer/Referee
None #0598 (Team Duct Tape)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 9
ducttapejason is infamous around these partsducttapejason is infamous around these parts
Send a message via AIM to ducttapejason
Re: Worst Call Ever and Congratulations from San Jose

[quote=Cory]False, I was the referee standing by the red auto loader and saw the referee on the red human zone clearly throw three flags.[\quote]

I was hoping somebody in the thread would prove me wrong about that... Thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
If you're implying Jason Morrella is anything but impartial ...
I am not implying anything against Jason Morella, he is an extremely professional individual who i have MUCH respect for, and get along with pretty well. That is why I did not mention his name in my original post. I did not want to call him out or involve him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
I hope you aren't trying to imply any of us had a bias towards any one team or alliance. We called infractions as we saw them, every time we saw them.
Thanks you for your hard and dilligent work as referees. I was not calling you out at all either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
I won't comment on the call itself ...
i wish i got a better look myself... that is why i want there to be a discussion about it. this is not supposed to be a nasty discussion but a clean one.

from what i understand there was a red robot in an auto loading zone, and one in the zone next to it. there was a blue robot next to the first mentioned red robot, and that red robot was stuck in the middle and could not get out since they could not hit there own alliance, that would be a penalty, so they hit the blue alliance, and the blue alliance got a penalty. i am still brushing up on the rules for next week, but the blue alliance did not hit the red alliance while it was in a zone, and even if it did it was done loading anyways and was most likely an accident on a crowded field, not intentional. if they were next to a tetra goal maybe something like that would have been intentional.

tell me what you saw...
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-27-2005, 01:14 PM
ducttapejason ducttapejason is offline
Mentor/Volunteer/Referee
None #0598 (Team Duct Tape)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 9
ducttapejason is infamous around these partsducttapejason is infamous around these parts
Send a message via AIM to ducttapejason
Re: [moderated]: Worst Call Ever and Congratulations from San Jose

Quote:
Originally Posted by phrozen solyd
We are deeply saddened and disappointed that some people may feel this way about our team, as well as FIRST Regional Director Jason Morrella.
again..... Jason Morella is incredibly professional and I have much respect for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phrozen solyd
Our team has spent the last 7 years trying to share what we have with other teams around the nation, as well as building a competitive robot. We wish we could reach out to each and every team out there, and we are always more than happy to contribute our resources for the good of others.
let me explain my views of 254.

NASA has essentially bought a FIRST team... not a bad investment at all. They put many great, talented, smart, and enthusiastic individuals, such as Jason, and others like Dr. Federman, who just in general kick a lot of $@#$@#$@#, and have done great things for FIRST. There is nothing wrong with this at all.

The problem occurs where I would imagine that NASA would love to parade around their wise investment into the youth of america. This team loves to strut around like the own the place because NASA has made them their poster child. There is nothing wrong with a team being NASA poster child it is in fact great for FIRST... but this is not professional sports. Being a FIRST poster child means building the best robot you can (#254 and every other team), helping out other teams as much as possible (#254 and others), and being placed up on a pillar as a model for others to follow (#254).

Being on #254 it is most likely that you have a great advantage in life. You go to a great school, and play for the winning team. This is what i meant in my original post. The kids of 254 ( or the majority i have seen) need to stop strutting around like the own the place simply because you do.

Keep on winning, keep on helping out other teams, keep on lending out resources, but go out and buy some modesty.

Congratulations to your team, and i hope that you continue to challenge yourselves and the rest of the FIRST community. You are up on a pedestal for a reason, quit looking down at everyone. Reach down and grab others to bring them up as well.
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-27-2005, 02:01 PM
Gordon Bell Gordon Bell is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Jose
Posts: 2
Gordon Bell is a glorious beacon of lightGordon Bell is a glorious beacon of lightGordon Bell is a glorious beacon of lightGordon Bell is a glorious beacon of lightGordon Bell is a glorious beacon of lightGordon Bell is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Worst Call Ever and Congratulations from San Jose

I must say that I am stunned that any FIRST alumni would post such an irresponsible and unprofessional post without knowing all the details.$@# What you have posted is clearly based on some preexisting bias you have, contains a certain degree of ignorance (stating incorrect facts and not knowing the details of what he is posting), and is borderline slanderous. You're agenda here seems clear to me.


I have been involved in FIRST having been a referee and head referee at 6 or 7$@# competitions over the past 4 years.$@#$@# While I have never posted on ChiefDelphi before, I will make an exception to address the post made by Mr. Katzer.$@# While I don't feel any need to defend the decision we as a group of referees made, I do feel that the teams involved and the accusations of Mr. Katzer to deserve a response.

FIRST - I had a great group of referees in San Jose, and the majority of them had already refereed 1 or 2 events already this year.$@# The penalty in question was called about 30 seconds into the match.$@# The referee clearly held up a flag, waved it, and then dropped it on the floor as was done the entire competition.$@# The fact that you claim to have been standing on the side of the field and didn't see the flag shows that you were not paying attention quite as well as you claim.$@#$@# Let me explain this for you:

A blue robot hit a red robot in the human player loading station while a human player was in process of delivering a tetra.$@#This is a very dangerous situation and therefore there is no "no blood, no foul" attitude with regards to penalties. This red robot was unpowered, as the student was off the pad.$@# This is a clear 30 point penalty, and I'm sure all would agree we'd get many complaints from that school and those parents if we never called this penalty during the event, teams got more carefree around the HP zone, a student got hit, impaled, or serious injured by such an incident.$@# Unfortunately, this exact situation was not as easy and clear as some others.

Here's a brief synopsis of what happened: A red robot was in the human player loading station.$@# A blue robot was driving across the field, holding a tetra, on their way to a goal.$@# A red robot in front of the center goal, also holding a tetra, turned and hit the blue robot to intercept them (makes sense, good strategic move).$@# While engaging the blue robot, the red robot pushed the blue robot into the dead red robot in the loading zone.$@# Our interpretation of the chain/cascade rule was that the red robot was responsible for the violation, that the blue robot was clearly avoiding the loading stations and going to score but was pushed into the zone by another red robot.$@# We are confident that there was no intention whatsoever by the red robot to do this - all six teams were playing great, they were all trying to score, and there was very little overly aggressive play in the finals.$@# Good defense at times, but nothing malicious or destructive.$@# Intentional or not, it was a rule violation, and we made the call we did.$@# You might not agree with it, but it was discussed at length before we made the score final.$@# As I'll explain later, the person you question pursued every possible option to see if there was justification for us to CHANGE our decision. Please note that during the playoffs, especially the championship match, tensions and everything is "on-the-line", but we cannot simply stop making penalty calls, especially when it comes to safety.

Second - For you to make veiled insinuations that you "saw" a discussion is so irresponsible I don't even know how to reply to that.$@# This is probably the worst acusation I have heard, and to hear it from a fellow referee is truly disappointing. To clear this up for you Mr. Katzer, the person you are questioning is the Regional Director of the event.$@# "Keeping my eyes on the field" as you put it, I completely witnessed the play in question, saw my referee (correctly) throw a flag, knew it was a unique situation because of the chain/cascade of robots, and turned to Jason to inform him that I'd like to have the rules and updates available to confirm what I felt was the rule before we post a score.$@# That was it Mr. Katzer.$@# I discussed the situation with the referees, we turned in the scorecard, I told our decision to the announcer, the scorekeepers, and the staff.$@#$@# It was entirely our decision, and in the end mine - for you to imply someone influenced our calls is disgraceful.$@# The only thing Jason Morrella did was ask us to postpone posting the score so he could take some time looking at the update and rules to ensure we had the correct interpretation of the rule - his "discussions" could result in only one thing, the score being changed and team 254 and their alliance getting a loss.$@# You don't mention that.$@# You don't mention that Jason was delaying the posting of the score on the chance that he could find a mistake which would take the win away from the team he has been affiliated with in the past. My goal was to ensure that the correct call was indeed being made. With so much on the line, we owe it to all teams to make sure of that.


Mr. Katzer, let me also point out something else to you. Referees are told that if they are unsure of a rule, they can ask FIRST staff who know the rules if they wish.$@# Regardless of what the staff tells them, they still bring up the question to The Head Referee during our after match discussion and the Head Ref makes the decision regardless of what the FIRST staff interpretation of a rule is.$@#$@# Some calls are judgment calls, and if the Head Ref and their team feels their judgment should result in a certain call - we will turn in that call regardless of if Jason, Dave Lavery, Woodie, Dean or anyone disagree.$@#

Mr. Katzer, here's another situation you had no knowledge of and which you'd be happy to know of since you have questioned his integrity.$@# After a match while we were adding up the score, a referee informed me of a flag he threw to confirm amongst ourselves if it was the right call.$@# I did not see the exact scenario because I was watching another part of the field - but this is why we have 6-8 refs.$@# In one of the last qualifying matches on Saturday, Team 254 was undefeated and going for the number one seed.$@# In this match, a close one, the 254 robot got it's wheels caught in a Tetra.$@# The ref observed their robot attempting to pick a Tetra up off of the loading station, but couldn't because the Tetra they were stuck in prevented them from getting close enough to the loading station. He was unsure of the unique situation and wasn't sure if there was a penalty because the tetra they were stuck in was touching the loading zone but not their robot - but they had never actually retrieved a tetra.$@# He asked Jason (who was on his side of the field) and Jason informed him if 254 touched the tetra without their robot touching the triangle, that he should throw a flag on them regardless of any obstruction preventing them from getting into the loading zone. Even though they had failed they had touched the tetra both times.$@# Now we would have made this call regardless of Jason's input, because the ref would have asked me anyway. When asked for input by the referee, Jason told the ref to call whatever he had seen, but that if he felt 254 had touched the tetra twice, even if it was two attempts in just a couple seconds, that should throw 2 flags on them. But understand Mr. Katzer - 254 had won that match, but lost it because of those two penalty flags, and lost the number one seed as a result.

THIRD - I am not a judge, but I was a Head Ref last year also and do remember that the Bellarmine team won the Chairman's Award and then the Championship Chairman's Award last year.$@# I don't know all the details of this award, but they obviously did enough to impress the judges.$@# It seems strange that you would question the students on that particular team and make a claim that they have everything "given" to them.$@# I have observed many great teams in FIRST doing many things to help other teams, 254 and many others.$@# If you have never been a member of that team, how in the world can you make a comment and judgment that they have everything "given to them".$@# I think you owe the students and mentors on that team, and the FIRST community as a whole an apology.$@# It is my understanding that any team that gets those awards must be doing a lot to share, to give back, to help other teams, and to be a positive team in the FIRST community.

FOURTH -We call the games as we see them.$@# We always hope there will be no penalties.$@# Sometimes there are penalties, and it's our job to call them.$@# Most our fairly straightforward, but some are close judgment calls.$@# In those situations we make the best call we can knowing that no matter what we decide, one alliance will think it was a good call and one will not.$@# You should know that.$@# You have the right to root against any team you wish, 254 and others.$@# You also have the right to disagree with a call made by referees.$@# But the instance you posted about was a close call and either way we called it would have upset one alliance.$@# As a referee, you statement that it was the "worst call ever" is childish, petty, and does not reflect well on your gracious professionalism.$@# I wouldn't ask you to agree with the call, and you have the right not to - but as a past referee you should know it was a judgment call, that we discuss all such calls with the entire ref crew before we turn in the scorecard, and that we made the decision we felt was right.$@#$@#


LAST - Your post makes it very clear that you have some issues or biases against certain teams.$@# You may not realize it, but I think most who read your post probably do.$@# You exhibited some of these biases when you refereed in San Jose last year, and unfortunately on occasion seem to let your relationships with teams, and views of other teams, impact your "judgment" while watching matches.$@# You should seriously reconsider your ability to be a referee at this point, and I would think FIRST would seriously reconsider your ability to referee.$@# You're assessment of the situation you started this post about was inaccurate and slanderous, and certainly not a post I would expect to see from a FIRST alumni who volunteers at many events (which you do and should be commended for).

To all who competed in San Jose - you should be very proud of yourself.$@# The level of competition was incredible, the skill of the drivers, the strategies of the coaches and drivers were very well executed, and teams have clearly learned how to play the game (many fewer penalties than in previous weeks).$@# The teams were very impressive, almost all were very gracious, and almost exhibited good sportsmanship throughout the event.$@# Congratulations to all of you, you make FIRST the truly great program that it is.$@#

As for me, I will continue to VOLUNTEER each year, even though every missed day of work costs me lost wages. That's correct, I am "paying" to do this tough job, taking time away from not only my job, but also taking time away from my family. I appreciate the posts of support on this thread~

Gordon Bell
Head Referee from Silicon Valley Region
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-27-2005, 02:05 PM
Unsung FIRST Hero
Jason Morrella Jason Morrella is offline
Robotics Education and Competition
AKA: J-Mo
no team (RECF)
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 154
Jason Morrella has a reputation beyond reputeJason Morrella has a reputation beyond reputeJason Morrella has a reputation beyond reputeJason Morrella has a reputation beyond reputeJason Morrella has a reputation beyond reputeJason Morrella has a reputation beyond reputeJason Morrella has a reputation beyond reputeJason Morrella has a reputation beyond reputeJason Morrella has a reputation beyond reputeJason Morrella has a reputation beyond reputeJason Morrella has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Worst Call Ever and Congratulations from San Jose

Wow. I'd be lying if I didn't admit such a post is not somewhat upsetting and disappointing. It is. Those are strong words Jason.

Funny thing is you and I spoke a number of times during the event, and after the awards ceremony I came to thank you for your work volunteering. I would like to think that if I wondered such things about you or anyone else, that I would approach them, express my thoughts, and see if my assumptions were true before making them public. I would encourage you to do so in the future, it's a good way to get relevant information, maintain respectful relationships, and to ensure public statements you make have some conviction and accuracy behind them. I won't take the time to try to change your assumptions, I don't feel obligated to, and quite honestly don't have the time or the energy to. You do have the right to express yourself, and trust me, if at any point I found that many others share your distrust of me, I would step down as a Regional Director immediately and go back to teaching full time. I would have no problem with that and have way too much love for FIRST to ever stay in a position that in anyway casts doubt on the integrity of an event, volunteers, or teams.

But I will defend our referees and our teams. You do quite a disservice to our refs when you make statements like you have. If you want to question my integrity or honesty, fine. But questioning the honesty and integrity of people you either don't know or barely know? Posting your assumption on why refs made a call without being involved in their discussion or knowing what you are talking about? Implying any team has everything "given" to them or doesn't "appreciate" their mentors and sponsors? I could see such irresponsible assumptions being made by a rookie person in FIRST, but from a veteran FIRST alumni it does surprise me. You know very little about me, you know nothing about our refs or the process they went through to make that call, and you know nothing about Team 254 or any other team that you have not been a member of - you don't know how hard any teams work, how involved their students are, how much they volunteer and contribute to the FIRST community, and how much effort they put into building their program over the years.

I appreciate the comments by some in response to Jason's post, thank you for the nice thoughts. I am comfortable with the decision the referees made and know they went through the exact right process to get to that decision. I'm not sure what things have happened in the past for Jason to have reached the opinion he has of myself and 254, but I'm sure he has his reasons and is entitled to express himself.

Jason, you've been a committed volunteer and FIRST member for years. I've always enjoyed seeing you at events and hope you will continue to work with teams. If you do have doubts and problems with me, I do ask that you direct all your criticism towards me, I'll take it. But great volunteers such as our refs this past weekend and any teams (even 254) shouldn't have to have their commitment, their participation, and their accomplishments questioned or diminished because you associate them with me. That's not fair to them.

Regardless of your views of me, I wish you all the best in the future and hope you do very well in life. I hope your experiences in FIRST in some way help you reach whatever goals you may have.

Last edited by Jason Morrella : 03-28-2005 at 10:50 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:42 PM.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi