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Unread 05-16-2005, 05:19 PM
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[Official 2006 Game Design] Game Elements and Subtasks

This thread is a spin-off of this discussion, and has been started to focus on game elements and subtasks. This is a discussion of ideas for unique game elements and subtasks. If you don't have a fully developed game, but have a great idea about a piece of a game or an idea about something that has never been done before, then this is the place to talk about it. As examples from the past, someone could use this thread to post a suggestion to use funny pyramid-like PVC structures as an element, or that stacking stuff should be included as a challenging subtask. Someone else may have a very creative idea for the role of the human player (while some may propose no human player at all). Others can use those ideas as a creativity springboard to develop a game concept.

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Unread 05-16-2005, 05:26 PM
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Re: [Official 2006 Game Design] Game Elements and Subtasks

I recommend keeping the human player. It adds challenge and fun.

As far as tasks and game elements go, I think discs would be a really interesting change. Ringtoss anyone? However, I think the elements to the 2006 game should vary so that robots of different competition levels can seek different goals. I think having a similar shape item (both this year and in 2004) helped in design, but, it was fun to see robots grab different size items in different ways. I think an obstacle in the middle of the field would also be a good idea, such as a ramp thingy similar to '03 or '04.

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Unread 05-16-2005, 05:31 PM
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Re: [Official 2006 Game Design] Game Elements and Subtasks

I would like to recommend another "attention getting" way to score at the end of the match. Something Akin to the ramp of '03 or the bar of '04. Getting back to the end zone this year didn't really get the crowd on its feet but fighting over the ramp or getting up on the bar sure did.
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Re: [Official 2006 Game Design] Game Elements and Subtasks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugenia Gabrielov
I recommend keeping the human player. It adds challenge and fun.

As far as tasks and game elements go, I think discs would be a really interesting change. Ringtoss anyone? However, I think the elements to the 2006 game should vary so that robots of different competition levels can seek different goals. I think having a similar shape item (both this year and in 2004) helped in design, but, it was fun to see robots grab different size items in different ways. I think an obstacle in the middle of the field would also be a good idea, such as a ramp thingy similar to '03 or '04.

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I think that Woodie mentioned at the kickoff that throwing things was a big no-no, as one malfunction, and the ring spins a bit too fast through the air at someone...
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Unread 05-16-2005, 05:46 PM
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Re: [Official 2006 Game Design] Game Elements and Subtasks

I too would like to see the "big finish" reintroduced into the game. It needs to be something so big that all teams strive for it at the end of the match but not so big that everyone does it at the start of the match then sits there.

I would like to see the rules on tipping relaxed. I would like to see a low center of gravity and/or anti-tipping device considered as part of the design challenge, not as part of the rules of play. The rules should allow intentional tipping, but robots should have provisions for protection against that.

I would like to see a very large scoring incentive for robots with drivetrains that go far above and beyond the one provided in the kit. I think this year, drive systems is an area where missed out on a lot of innovation from teams because the one in the kit was good enough for the game. Make teams strive for better than what they are given.

I would like to see a large central element to the field, like 2003 or 2004. The 2005 center goal was not exciting enough.

Perhaps maybe the whole field slopes toward the center.

Or maybe there is a chasm in the middle of the field and no bridge. The challenge is getting across. There would be a ramp to jump it or there would be a bar to swing over it. Or you'd have to bridge it yourself.

Or maybe a giant wall that you would have to get over.

I've always wanted to see a multileveled field where robots drive up ramps to get to the next level, kind of like a parking garage. The whole thing could be lexan so you can see the lower levels.
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Unread 05-16-2005, 05:50 PM
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Re: [Official 2006 Game Design] Game Elements and Subtasks

I really discourage the use of balls or anything that intakes air. I remember last year that some team's auto mode and stuff wouldn't work because some air got out by the time of the championships eliminations came around. so no balls or anything that takes air to take shape. i would love to see something with bowling balls. wouldn't that be great? or something that the robot has to be one with. a open box perhaps? just some ideas a floating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanddrag
I too would like to see the "big finish" reintroduced into the game. It needs to be something so big that all teams strive for it at the end of the match but not so big that everyone does it at the start of the match then sits there.
oo possibly this big finish only be awarded with 15 seconds left? instead of the ~50pts given any time, only teams can score the 50 pts in the last 15 seconds. If the team does this task before 15 seconds is left then they would get half of the big point alloted. just makes the game have a "big finish".
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Re: [Official 2006 Game Design] Game Elements and Subtasks

I agree with Eugenia, I think we should definietly keep the human players. I was a human player this year, and the ability to actually be on the floor with the competition and the robots was incredible. Plus it adds the extra thrill when human players have to race against time and each other to re-activate their bots and help keep the competition moving. As I just said, it's a great feeling being out there on the floor, and to have the opportunity to provide that rush for kids is great.
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Re: [Official 2006 Game Design] Game Elements and Subtasks

I really want to see some sort of moving part on the feild, Akin to the ramp before my time... (2001?) but more interactive, like robots open channels to get across the feild, but seal off another entrance, like a rotating door. Also, i think that it would be nice to have durable feild peices. The crates, the small balls and the tetras all break way too much. My team hasnt brokne very much, but something more like a cube of pvc that has to be hung on a rack or into a "cargo area" (like a forklift type job) and then at the end the robot stores itself somwhere on the feild and gets points for fitting into a small box (maybe even smaller than starting dimensions).

Mainly, durable feild peices are important to me.
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Re: [Official 2006 Game Design] Game Elements and Subtasks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Cormier
oo possibly this big finish only be awarded with 15 seconds left? instead of the ~50pts given any time, only teams can score the 50 pts in the last 15 seconds. If the team does this task before 15 seconds is left then they would get half of the big point alloted. just makes the game have a "big finish".
Quote:
Originally Posted by pakrat
I really want to see some sort of moving part on the feild, Akin to the ramp before my time... (2001?) but more interactive, like robots open channels to get across the feild, but seal off another entrance, like a rotating door. Also, i think that it would be nice to have durable feild peices. The crates, the small balls and the tetras all break way too much. My team hasnt brokne very much, but something more like a cube of pvc that has to be hung on a rack or into a "cargo area" (like a forklift type job) and then at the end the robot stores itself somwhere on the feild and gets points for fitting into a small box (maybe even smaller than starting dimensions).
Perhaps we could combine these ideas? The big finish could involve a team/alliance being able to pass through certain gates to an end point. The gates wouldn't open until 15 seconds remained on the clock and a member of the alliance pressed a button (whether it be an actual manipulative button or a pressure pad), at which point, the team/alliance races to complete the final objective through the gates (button on other side of field perhaps?).
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Unread 05-16-2005, 07:08 PM
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Re: [Official 2006 Game Design] Game Elements and Subtasks

If we want even more alliance work, than create a task on the field that can ONLY be completed using at least 2 members of your team. For the gate idea, one robot would have to hold down a lever or sensor to keep the gate open while their partner could go through the now open gate.

The Big Finish needs to be re-added, and has to be able to swing the entire game score in only those last few seconds.

More interactive field elements that can hung from, climbed upon, or driven over also need to be added.
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Unread 05-16-2005, 07:14 PM
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Re: [Official 2006 Game Design] Game Elements and Subtasks

I think that the whole options thing should come back. In 2004 there were many things you could do, but in 2005 there was only one thing to do. And I also agree with everybody else in saying the "big finish" should come back. But make it something where only 2 or 3 robots could be able to be at the end. I remember Woodie saying at Kickoff 2004 that it would be almost impossible for 4 robots to hang at the end but it happened. So make it something where it is certain that only a few robots could be at the end.
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Unread 05-16-2005, 07:57 PM
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Re: [Official 2006 Game Design] Game Elements and Subtasks

By all means, keep the human player.

As for the big finale, definitely put something in the middle that robots take aim for. A bar, a ramp, heck, let's have a cargo net this year.

On the subject of cargo nets, I'd be thrilled to see a game that required mobility other than a drivetrain. Monkey bars, for example--they'd require skill to navigate, and you might not be able to get that fifteen-motor drivetrain built, meaning rookies wouldn't necessarily be bringing a knife to the gunfight with a kitbot.

Similarly, I wouldn't mind seeing a field with varying terrain. Perhaps in the manual, FIRST defines four or five six-foot squares, each with a certain feature, like a small stack of two-by-fours. There'd be N of each square on the field, placed in a different-but-mirrored setup at each competition, with a uniform setup at the Championship to make the Einstein matches sane. Think vision tetras, but they stay that way for all three days.

Finally, one that might be a mixture of a game element and technology--score the game in real-time. It'd be harder to execute, granted, but I believe FIRST's ability to do so has improved dramatically over the last game scored that way, 1995's Ramp n' Roll. With some Banner sensors like in 2004 (where catching the reflective tape in the ball tees triggered the ball dumps), I think goals would be doable. And teams could always emulate the goal without the electronics.

Just my thoughts--whatever comes out, I'll play it.
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Re: [Official 2006 Game Design] Game Elements and Subtasks

I would like to keep the human player as others have said, it adds to the excitement. Also, having a "big finish" would add greatly to the excitement of the game to non-FIRST spectators. Also, maybe reintroducing the moveable goal or some other interactive element.
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Unread 05-16-2005, 09:20 PM
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Re: [Official 2006 Game Design] Game Elements and Subtasks

I think it might be interesting to see pressure pads in the middle of the field for the robots to get on. I have no idea what they would be used for or if it's feasible, but it might be interesting.

A big finish would be cool, and would probably make the game more exciting. But what about something big to start with? Maybe the alliances have to get and hold certain areas of the field somehow. With a field like the one this year, they would hold an area by putting something on top of the goal. Sort of like this year actually, but they wouldn't get points for rows and they would be encouraged to take the opponent's piece off, so only one can occupy a goal at a time. This kind of game play might make the beginning like a mad dash to get the different areas, and would make the game pretty exciting. Of course, it would be a much more contact form of play, and I don't know how that would work.
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Re: [Official 2006 Game Design] Game Elements and Subtasks

I'd like to see some of the field elements that limit the size of objects passing through them. In previous years there have been those things like "if your smaller then this, it will save you time". In the real world making things smaller is an ongoing effort and having students practicing while they learn is something they should experience. Its important to know that it isn't always best to have biggest machine out there.
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