OCCRA
Go to Post If you smack the bear with a stick, you'd better be ready for a mauling. - sciguy125 [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Kit & Additional Hardware
CD-Events   CD-Media   CD-Spy   FRC-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-13-2006, 08:38 AM
generalbrando's Avatar
generalbrando generalbrando is offline
Build, Break, Repeat
AKA: Brandon Mensing
FRC #0246 (Overclocked)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 366
generalbrando is a splendid one to beholdgeneralbrando is a splendid one to beholdgeneralbrando is a splendid one to beholdgeneralbrando is a splendid one to beholdgeneralbrando is a splendid one to beholdgeneralbrando is a splendid one to beholdgeneralbrando is a splendid one to beholdgeneralbrando is a splendid one to behold
Send a message via AIM to generalbrando
Tips for KitBot

The team we're mentoring stopped by yesterday and I found myself giving them a lot of tips for the KitBot. I'd like to briefly outline them for your viewing pleasure:

1. Use loctite on all bolts. The 1/4 20 nuts do have lock-washers, but we've found that because they are coarse thread and because the frame is brushed, they still come loose quite a bit.

2. Read the instructions: You're missing a few things that you can pick up at the hardware store: bolts for wheel hubs, pvc for spacers, 3/8" bolts and nuts, etc.

3. Use Grade 8 or 9 bolts for the axels to prevent bending/breaking. Most hardware stores carry higher grades.

4. Cover the extra hole on the transmission boxes to prevent junk from going in there. Duct tape it for now, find something legal latter.

5. The compressor can be mounted upside down between the motors, attached to the motor bracket plate. Be sure to use red loctite though

6. The plates that attach the transmissions to the chassis tend to slip because the drive train is powerful. Consider adding a bolt through a new hole in the plate (i.e. so that there's no way it can slide) - but do this after you're sure you have it in the right place (plenty of chain tension).

7. The gearbox was designed to optimally run with 2 CIM motors per gearbox and I strongly recommend using 2 CIM motors per gearbox. It is legal to purchase 2 more CIM motors and they are only $28 from IFI. (From Paul. Thanks!) Also, consider asking other teams (veterans) if you cannot afford more motors this year.

8. there is a video that illustrates how to assemble the transmissions and chassis, thanks to NASA...Chasis and transmission assembly video (From Vince. Thanks!)

9. Consider placing extra material over the bolt holes of the axles. This will help prevent the holes from wearing out and expanding. Basically, just take some flat aluminum extrusion and bolt it over the hole. Then redrill the 1/4" hole for the axle. (From Nitroxextreme. Thanks!)

10. Once you have the transmission boxes made up, run them for 10 minutes with a little oil. This will break them in and produce better and more consistent results. (From Andrew. Thanks!)

I think that's all, if I have more I'll add them or if others have more to add, please do so.

(Note: I did not yet add welding because there is valid debate below about whether it's a great suggestion.)
__________________
Lead Mentor of Team #246, Boston University Academy and Boston University, Overclocked
www.burobotics.org


Last edited by generalbrando : 01-14-2006 at 06:47 AM.
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-13-2006, 09:15 AM
Paul Copioli's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero Woodie Flowers Award
Paul Copioli Paul Copioli is offline
#BuildBlitz #TeamCopioli
no team (TeamCopioli)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Rockwall, TX
Posts: 1,289
Paul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tips for KitBot

Those are all excellent suggestions!

One more thing to add:

The gearbox was designed to optimally run with 2 CIM motors per gearbox and I strongly recommend using 2 CIM motors per gearbox. It is legal to purchase 2 more CIM motors and they are only around $24 from IFI.

-Paul
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-13-2006, 11:27 AM
Vince's Avatar
Vince Vince is offline
Registered User
FRC #0236 (Techno Ticks)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1994
Location: Old Lyme, CT
Posts: 161
Vince has a reputation beyond reputeVince has a reputation beyond reputeVince has a reputation beyond reputeVince has a reputation beyond reputeVince has a reputation beyond reputeVince has a reputation beyond reputeVince has a reputation beyond reputeVince has a reputation beyond reputeVince has a reputation beyond reputeVince has a reputation beyond reputeVince has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tips for KitBot

One other tip - there is a video that illustrates how to assemble the transmissions and chassis, thanks to NASA...Chasis and transmission assembly video
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-13-2006, 04:17 PM
dtengineering's Avatar
dtengineering dtengineering is offline
Teaching Teachers to Teach Tech
AKA: Jason Brett
FRC #1346 ("Trobotics" competed 2004-2010)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 1,664
dtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tips for KitBot

Last year once we had the kitbot chassis all bolted together we took it out and had it welded up. Then we took the bolts out.

Not only did it result in an even more rigid chassis, but there was no chance of a loose bolt causing problems.

AND it saved a half pound or more of nuts bolts and washers. When we weighed in for competition we were 119.5lbs.

Ounce count.

Jason
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-13-2006, 04:22 PM
Peter Matteson's Avatar
Peter Matteson Peter Matteson is offline
Ambitious but rubbish!
FRC #0177 (Bobcat Robotics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: South Windsor, CT
Posts: 1,629
Peter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tips for KitBot

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtengineering
Last year once we had the kitbot chassis all bolted together we took it out and had it welded up. Then we took the bolts out.

Not only did it result in an even more rigid chassis, but there was no chance of a loose bolt causing problems.

AND it saved a half pound or more of nuts bolts and washers. When we weighed in for competition we were 119.5lbs.
We did the same and then bolted everything to the top of it so we could remove it intact and adapt the base for prototyping this year.
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-13-2006, 07:26 PM
Nitroxextreme's Avatar
Nitroxextreme Nitroxextreme is offline
Relation to Mrs. Steve
AKA: Jon
FRC #1626 (Falcon Robotics ; 190 (Gompei and The Herd))
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Bedminster, NJ
Posts: 276
Nitroxextreme is a splendid one to beholdNitroxextreme is a splendid one to beholdNitroxextreme is a splendid one to beholdNitroxextreme is a splendid one to beholdNitroxextreme is a splendid one to beholdNitroxextreme is a splendid one to behold
Send a message via AIM to Nitroxextreme
Re: Tips for KitBot

Reinforce the axle holes by bolting on another piece of metal so that you will have 4 pieces of metal the axles go through not only 2

2 although it seems strong enough wont be...last year we didn't reinforce and after the season we had to create a new mounting bracket for the axles because the kit-bot holes were at about 150% normal size
__________________



"He needed a chuck norris lesson in FIRST"...."I will give him a round house kick to the face...with gracious professionalism"
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-13-2006, 08:00 PM
Andrew Blair's Avatar
Andrew Blair Andrew Blair is offline
SAE Formula is FIRST with Gasoline.
FRC #0306 (CRT)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Corry
Posts: 1,193
Andrew Blair has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Blair has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Blair has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Blair has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Blair has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Blair has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Blair has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Blair has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Blair has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Blair has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Blair has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Andrew Blair Send a message via Yahoo to Andrew Blair
Re: Tips for KitBot

The gearboxes can be very good, but be sure to assemble them with plenty of LockTite. If you don't, they will comeaprt, and they will jam. We had this happen a couple of times, and total, from three gearbox jams, we found five pieces of loose hardware inside. For some reason, the stuff in there is attracted to the gears.

Also run the gearboxes in for about ten minutes straight. They'll run a lot better for it.
__________________
Reading makes a full man, conference a ready man, and writing an exact man.
-Sir Francis Bacon

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."
-Albert Einstein
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-13-2006, 08:13 PM
ChuckDickerson's Avatar
ChuckDickerson ChuckDickerson is offline
Mentor / Bayou LRI
AKA: DeepWater
FRC #0456 (Siege Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Vicksburg, MS
Posts: 802
ChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tips for KitBot

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtengineering
Last year once we had the kitbot chassis all bolted together we took it out and had it welded up. Then we took the bolts out.

Not only did it result in an even more rigid chassis, but there was no chance of a loose bolt causing problems.

AND it saved a half pound or more of nuts bolts and washers. When we weighed in for competition we were 119.5lbs.

Ounce count.

Jason
Use caution when welding the frame. The heat from welding can distort and weaken the frame. I believe it can actually destroy the heat treatment of the frame and cause the weld to be the weak point in the frame. Also, a super rigid frame may not be a good thing. I believe the kit frame was designed to flex a little across the corners for a reason. Sort of a built in suspension. To reduce the weight of the steel fasteners in the kit frame consider using 1/4" aluminum rivets. They are strong, light and can be removed and replaced if needed.

Last edited by ChuckDickerson : 01-13-2006 at 10:15 PM.
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-13-2006, 10:33 PM
Gdeaver Gdeaver is offline
Registered User
FRC #1640
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: West Chester, Pa.
Posts: 1,188
Gdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tips for KitBot

Definitely go for a grade 8 axle bolt. We bent a low grade bolt in testing last year.
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-13-2006, 10:37 PM
Tom Bottiglieri Tom Bottiglieri is offline
Custom User Title
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,017
Tom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Tom Bottiglieri
Re: Tips for KitBot

We assembled the Kit Bot for early program module development, but are having troubles with traction with the stock wheelchair wheels. I suppose this is from a combination of low robot weight (bare minimum for bot to run mounted), and running the bot on a slick tile floor.

Does anyone have suggestions on how to get more traction from the stock wheels? We are planning on adding more weight over the driven wheels tomorrow, and possible putting zip ties around the wheels.
__________________
2014 FRC Champions! : 254, 469, 2848, 74

Team 254 | San Jose, CA | Mentor (2010 - Present)
Team 125 | Boston, MA | College Student (2007 - 2011)
Team 195 | Southington, CT | Student (2002 - 2006)
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-13-2006, 10:43 PM
Greg Marra's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Greg Marra Greg Marra is offline
[automate(a) for a in tasks_to_do]
no team (The Blue Alliance)
Team Role: RoboCoach
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 2,030
Greg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond reputeGreg Marra has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tips for KitBot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri
We assembled the Kit Bot for early program module development, but are having troubles with traction with the stock wheelchair wheels. I suppose this is from a combination of low robot weight (bare minimum for bot to run mounted), and running the bot on a slick tile floor.

Does anyone have suggestions on how to get more traction from the stock wheels? We are planning on adding more weight over the driven wheels tomorrow, and possible putting zip ties around the wheels.
Big weights. Bolt some big hunks of heavy metal to the top of the frame to get the robot up to weight.

Also, do you have any pneumatic tires you could switch in for the wheelchair ones? They tend to be much better at gripping.
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-13-2006, 10:49 PM
Tom Bottiglieri Tom Bottiglieri is offline
Custom User Title
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,017
Tom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond reputeTom Bottiglieri has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Tom Bottiglieri
Re: Tips for KitBot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Marra
Big weights. Bolt some big hunks of heavy metal to the top of the frame to get the robot up to weight.

Also, do you have any pneumatic tires you could switch in for the wheelchair ones? They tend to be much better at gripping.
No, but does someone want to help me out?
__________________
2014 FRC Champions! : 254, 469, 2848, 74

Team 254 | San Jose, CA | Mentor (2010 - Present)
Team 125 | Boston, MA | College Student (2007 - 2011)
Team 195 | Southington, CT | Student (2002 - 2006)
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-13-2006, 10:50 PM
ChuckDickerson's Avatar
ChuckDickerson ChuckDickerson is offline
Mentor / Bayou LRI
AKA: DeepWater
FRC #0456 (Siege Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Vicksburg, MS
Posts: 802
ChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond reputeChuckDickerson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tips for KitBot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri
We assembled the Kit Bot for early program module development, but are having troubles with traction with the stock wheelchair wheels. I suppose this is from a combination of low robot weight (bare minimum for bot to run mounted), and running the bot on a slick tile floor.

Does anyone have suggestions on how to get more traction from the stock wheels? We are planning on adding more weight over the driven wheels tomorrow, and possible putting zip ties around the wheels.
I think the zip ties will be counter productive if you are trying to increase traction. Chuck up the wheels in a lathe and turn the "crown" off to make them flat. Cut some grooves across the face of the tread. If that isn't enough wrap some better traction material (wedgetop/roughtop) around the new flat wheels and glue it.
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-13-2006, 11:02 PM
Conor Ryan Conor Ryan is offline
Financial Engineer
FRC #4991 (HORSEpower)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,663
Conor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tips for KitBot

  • Try different configurations!!!-Particularly with the chassis
    • Your robot can easily turn much better if you have wheels on shorter side (28") and then use the Longer beams for your Width (38") The further you get away from that, the harder its gonna be on your robot to turn.
    • Drive Train Basics

  • Review some of the documents IFI published, from their design process to their analysis after last year's usage of the kit chassis/gearbox
  • They mention it a few times in the Assembly manual, look into using the kit gearbox in the "Arm" Configuration, you never know you may get something handy out of it.
  • Worried about nuts and bolts coming out and your bot falling apart? Use a lock washer and a Nylon Nut, its a great alternative to lock tight, and i've yet to have a problem with it.
  • Most of all, have fun with the Kitbot

Last edited by Conor Ryan : 01-13-2006 at 11:07 PM.
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-13-2006, 11:06 PM
Biff Biff is offline
Registered User
AKA: Tom Cooper
#1227 (Techno Gremlins)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Posts: 214
Biff is a jewel in the roughBiff is a jewel in the roughBiff is a jewel in the roughBiff is a jewel in the rough
Re: Tips for KitBot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri
We assembled the Kit Bot for early program module development, but are having troubles with traction with the stock wheelchair wheels. I suppose this is from a combination of low robot weight (bare minimum for bot to run mounted), and running the bot on a slick tile floor.

Does anyone have suggestions on how to get more traction from the stock wheels? We are planning on adding more weight over the driven wheels tomorrow, and possible putting zip ties around the wheels.
Two suggestions one for general info
http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2004.../champwork.htm
check out the drive line ppt's
The second is conveyor belting. The gum rubber variety is a First staple. You can get more info from the IFI site they make the controller and also some new bolt together wheels which you pop rivet the belting to other wise teams get the wheel chair wheels lathed flat and glue the belting to the outside. Also try a search of the forums here, Hope this is helpful.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fantasy FIRST drafting tips for newbies (and veterans) Koko Ed Fantasy FIRST 18 04-20-2006 04:06 PM
Building tips Liz C Technical Discussion 6 10-16-2005 01:48 PM
Travel Tips KathieK General Forum 5 12-13-2004 11:47 AM
Mechanical tips for rookies Anne Shade Technical Discussion 10 10-28-2004 12:44 PM
Any Tips on Fundraising? Zzyzx Chit-Chat 3 10-06-2004 02:31 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:06 AM.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi