an evil, desperate, ramp strategy

[Bill Moore]

Originally Posted by Ianworld

As for the cases of tipping robots. I would say that only 1 out 10 times a robot is tipped does the opposing team get punished. The last major tipping game(2003 with the ramp) robots were very, very rarely punished for tipping other robots. I know my team won a quarter final that I was sure we'd lose, in the relatively shady manner of pushing in rather aggressive ways and tipping the awesome MOE that year.

Don't remember this. We weren't as big a target in 2003 as 2002. We made the mistake in 2002 of "awarding" teams the parts of our robot which they broke legitimately during competition as "trophies". Unfortunately, this encouraged teams to completely ignore the game and take aim at breaking our robot. Obviously our policy about awarding such trophies changed quickly.

Originally Posted by Ianworld

Lastly it will get rougher in the finals, much rougher and the refs will be much more relaxed about contact. In the finals teams will almost never be DQ'd for rough contact. .

I would have to disagree from last years experience. In Pittsburgh, our alliance was disqualified for tipping a robot over in the finals, which we lost. Then a few weeks later in Philadelphia, the same disqualification went to our opponents for tipping one of our alliance bots during the finals. The refs remain consistent with their calls, whether it is qualifications or playoffs.

[KenWittlief]

Two years back at the Pittsburgh regional our team was in the second game of the final match.

An opponent robot came all the way across the field at full speed just after auton mode ended and hit one side of our robot, breaking off all the wheels on that side.

our robot turned 180 degrees, the driver not fully realizing half his wheels were gone. The opponent backed up and rammed us again, breaking all the wheels off the other side.

I thought for sure they would be DQ'd. Instead when the buzzer sounded they started playing "we are the champions". They won. We came in second.

So Im inclined to say that in the final matches things will get rough, and DQs will be few and far between!

[nfshuskey86]

Our robot can not go up the ramp without tipping. Since our robot wants to tip we were thinking about tipping ourselves on purpose to block a portion of the ramp. We were hoping you guys could give your opinions and insight on whether or not it would be legal or not.

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by nfshuskey86

Our robot can not go up the ramp without tipping. Since our robot wants to tip we were thinking about tipping ourselves on purpose to block a portion of the ramp. We were hoping you guys could give your opinions and insight on whether or not it would be legal or not.

kinda like lying in the street to save a parking spot?

I dont see any reason why that would be against the rules, but two things to consider:

1. can you block the whole ramp that way? not much point if the other bots can just go around you

B. Are you willing to be pushed or dragged out of the way by other robots? can your bot handle that kind of abuse? I would think if you are blocking the ramp then you are fair game to be shoved out of the way, bumper zone or not. Once you fall over you do not have any bumpers in the bumper zone, but your opponets will still have theirs. As long as they push you with their bumpers, they can push against any part of your robot they come in contact with.

[MattB703]

or shoved up onto the ramp to score points for the other team.

[Bill Moore]

Originally Posted by nfshuskey86

Our robot can not go up the ramp without tipping. Since our robot wants to tip we were thinking about tipping ourselves on purpose to block a portion of the ramp. We were hoping you guys could give your opinions and insight on whether or not it would be legal or not.

I hope you have one eager pit crew, cause with this strategy, they will have plenty of work to do!

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by Bill Moore

I hope you have one eager pit crew, cause with this strategy, they will have plenty of work to do!

yeah and when you goto expo matches at elementary schools you'll have all these 7 year old kids coming up to you and going "can I make the robot tip over?!!!!"

[Mike Norton]

Our robot can not go up the ramp without tipping. Since our robot wants to tip we were thinking about tipping ourselves on purpose to block a portion of the ramp. We were hoping you guys could give your opinions and insight on whether or not it would be legal or not.

This is legal. I would say thanks if we where playing you. We would push you right up the ramp for the points. This is going to be one of the great way of scoring this year. use the other team robots as points.

You would just save us time.

I would say 35% of the robots will fall over by themselves. 40% of the robots will be pushed over. and the other 25% will be doing the pushing

[Bill Moore]

Originally Posted by Mike Norton

This is legal. I would say thanks if we where playing you. We would push you right up the ramp for the points. This is going to be one of the great way of scoring this year. use the other team robots as points.

You would just save us time.

I would say 35% of the robots will fall over by themselves. 40% of the robots will be pushed over. and the other 25% will be doing the pushing

I wouldn't be so quick to push a tipped robot up the ramp, especially if it were an opponent. It is one thing to move them out of the way so you can ascend, but if you break their robot while trying to push them up, I suspect you would be penalized.

This action will be taking place directly in front of your player station, so your driver will have a very clear view of whether the opposing robot is being damaged or not.

For those folks who have a "tipsy" robot, there are mechanisms/strategies that you can employ to ascend the ramp without tipping. Brainstorm some of these amongst your team, and then share them with your alliance partners at the competitions. (Think 2001.)

[Mike Norton]

I wouldn't be so quick to push a tipped robot up the ramp, especially if it were an opponent. It is one thing to move them out of the way so you can ascend, but if you break their robot while trying to push them up, I suspect you would be penalized.

See this year FIRST has put a value on the opponents robot. So if there is a robot on the ground there is no rule saying you can not push them up the ramp as long as you push them within the push zone.

So for all the robots that think they are going to flip over you better have a strong top.

I have seen 2 years ago a lot of robots on its back but once on the back you would stay away from them. But this year you would want to try to push robots up onto the ramp.

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by nfshuskey86

Our robot can not go up the ramp without tipping. Since our robot wants to tip we were thinking about tipping ourselves on purpose to block a portion of the ramp. We were hoping you guys could give your opinions and insight on whether or not it would be legal or not.

I read <G17> as making this illegal. That said, there does not seem to be any penalty for doing so, other than a prohibition against scoring.

Originally Posted by <G17>

ROBOT Orientation - ROBOTs must maintain their vertical orientation with respect to their starting position throughout the match. ROBOTs may not intentionally tip over onto one of their initially vertical sides and operate with this side parallel to the ground. If a ROBOT is accidentally or intentionally tipped over onto its side, it cannot score any balls in any goals from this orientation.

Wetzel

[KenWittlief]

<G17> says "and operate" - the person posting the question knows they will be out of commission once they fall over.

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

<G17> says "and operate" - the person posting the question knows they will be out of commission once they fall over.

They seem to think that they will operate fairly well as a roadblock.

Wetzel

[Bill Moore]

Originally Posted by Mike Norton

See this year FIRST has put a value on the opponents robot. So if there is a robot on the ground there is no rule saying you can not push them up the ramp as long as you push them within the push zone.

So for all the robots that think they are going to flip over you better have a strong top.

I have seen 2 years ago a lot of robots on its back but once on the back you would stay away from them. But this year you would want to try to push robots up onto the ramp.

Yes, the opponents robot may be worth points to your team, but you still must abide by Rule G22 as well, especially these two sections:

• Rule <R35> in Section 5.3.4 establishes ROBOT bumper zones. Any contact within this zone is
generally acceptable, with the exception of high speed long distance ramming. If two ROBOTs
choose not to use bumpers, and they contact such that simultaneous contact occurs both in and out of
the bumper zone, then this contact is considered within the bumper zone.
• Contact outside of the bumper zone is generally not acceptable, and the offending ROBOT will be
assessed a 5-point penalty, and may be disqualified from the match if the offense is particularly
egregious or if it results in substantial damage to another ROBOT. Incidental contact will not be
penalized. Contact outside the bumper zone that is a result of tipping caused by contact within the
bumper zone will be considered incidental contact.

A robot on its' side will have a very small "bumper zone". Pushing outside that zone will not be incidental contact.

Again, I encourage teams to consider how a "tipsy" bot may climb the ramp without tipping. Even if you don't have a tipping problem, one of your alliance partners might.

[KenWittlief]

A robot on its' side will have a very small "bumper zone". Pushing outside that zone will not be incidental contact.

I dont agree. If a robot tips over that does not mean they are now untouchable. The contact zone applies to YOUR robot. You are not allowed to push other robots with any part of YOUR robot outside your bumper zone. For example you cannot extend an arm and push another robot at the top of its frame.

If a robot has no bumpers in its bumper zone, or if their bumpers fall off, or if they tip over, the legal bumper zone is still as defined by the rules, the specified distance above the floor.

If you deliberately allow your robot to tip over you are at your opponents mercy. If that is your strategy you better put bumpers covering your entire robot!