OCCRA
Go to Post It doesn't matter to me where a FIRST local event is held, I'll be there! - Barry Bonzack [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Other > FIRST Lego League
CD-Events   CD-Media   CD-Spy   FRC-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-13-2006, 11:47 AM
Dylan's Avatar
Dylan Dylan is offline
FRC Mentor
AKA: Dylan Stoll
FRC #0830 (Rat Pack)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Posts: 310
Dylan has much to be proud ofDylan has much to be proud ofDylan has much to be proud ofDylan has much to be proud ofDylan has much to be proud ofDylan has much to be proud ofDylan has much to be proud ofDylan has much to be proud of
Send a message via AIM to Dylan Send a message via Yahoo to Dylan
Pnuematics?

I'm helping the local FLL team out this year as sort of an advisor (I know the coach), and I was wondering if pneumatics are allowed on the robot. The rules do say that there is no limit on non-electric components as long as they are in "factory condition", but it does not mention pneumatics.

If they are allowed, has any one used them before? If so, what kind of success did they have?

The team will be using the NXT system.
__________________
"It's like timing a monkey!"-me (explanation avalible by PM request)

"You can't spread Democracy with the barrel of a gun" ~ Helen Thomas

2006 Great Lakes Regional Semi-Finalists (Thanks to our allies: Team 66 and Team 68)
Thanks 469 for lending us your old OI in ATL!
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-13-2006, 11:55 AM
Jeff K.'s Avatar
Jeff K. Jeff K. is offline
Hmm..now what?
FRC #1138 (Eagle Engineering)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Chatsworth, California
Posts: 706
Jeff K. has a reputation beyond reputeJeff K. has a reputation beyond reputeJeff K. has a reputation beyond reputeJeff K. has a reputation beyond reputeJeff K. has a reputation beyond reputeJeff K. has a reputation beyond reputeJeff K. has a reputation beyond reputeJeff K. has a reputation beyond reputeJeff K. has a reputation beyond reputeJeff K. has a reputation beyond reputeJeff K. has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Jeff K. Send a message via MSN to Jeff K.
Re: Pnuematics?

Pneumatics are allowed in FLL. I totally forgot about the Lego Pneumatics. Are they still available though? I was originally thinking the little pneumatics designed for VEX, or even smaller pneumatics you could use in an antweight battlebot.

Last edited by Jeff K. : 10-13-2006 at 12:03 PM.
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-13-2006, 11:57 AM
Jeff Rodriguez Jeff Rodriguez is offline
Too young to be an 'old guy'
FRC #0155 (Technonuts)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Newington, CT
Posts: 1,943
Jeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Rodriguez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Jeff Rodriguez Send a message via Yahoo to Jeff Rodriguez Send a message via Skype™ to Jeff Rodriguez
Re: Pnuematics?

I believe pneumatics are legal as long as they are in factory condition with the exception of tubing that you may cut to required lengths. I don't see a mention about it in the 2006 rules, but I remember something from previous years.
You way want to submit it to the Q&A just to be sure.

Also, http://www.fll-freak.com/faq/faq_printer.htm is an unofficial FAQ but Skye does a superb job keeping it accurate.
__________________
173, student: 1999-2002
173, mentor: 2005-2010
155, teacher: 2011-

Last edited by Jeff Rodriguez : 10-13-2006 at 12:01 PM.
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-13-2006, 12:31 PM
Tapoore's Avatar
Tapoore Tapoore is offline
Registered User
AKA: Tom Poore
FRC #1519 (Mechanical Mayhem)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: May 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Milford, NH/ Mont Vernon, NH
Posts: 206
Tapoore is a glorious beacon of lightTapoore is a glorious beacon of lightTapoore is a glorious beacon of lightTapoore is a glorious beacon of lightTapoore is a glorious beacon of lightTapoore is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Pnuematics?

There are special FLL pnematics that are legal, I believe.
__________________
- www.mechanicalmayhem.org -

* 2010 BAE GSR Champions
* 2009 BAE GSR Chairman's Award
* 2006 BAE GSR Champions
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-15-2006, 01:20 PM
Ian Curtis Ian Curtis is offline
Best Available Data
FRC #1778 (Chill Out!)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 2,427
Ian Curtis has a reputation beyond reputeIan Curtis has a reputation beyond reputeIan Curtis has a reputation beyond reputeIan Curtis has a reputation beyond reputeIan Curtis has a reputation beyond reputeIan Curtis has a reputation beyond reputeIan Curtis has a reputation beyond reputeIan Curtis has a reputation beyond reputeIan Curtis has a reputation beyond reputeIan Curtis has a reputation beyond reputeIan Curtis has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pnuematics?

If they are allowed, has any one used them before? If so, what kind of success did they have?

One the the most inventive solutions I ever saw in FLL used pneumatics. I don't know if you where around in 2002, but in the challenge that year there was a bridge on one side that was about one third as long as the table It started up, but with by hitting a lever it would fall flat. Hidden behind that bridge was a windmill, and with the other things on the table, the easiest way to get to the windmill to push a lever, was to go over the bridge. The bridge was quite treacherous to navigate over, and a plunge off the side meant almost certain death for many FLL robots (lesson learned: ALWAYS PIN YOUR ROBOT TOGETHER!) So, one team, used the pnemautics to power a little cart that they sent over the bridge. It was genious! It required no additional weight on the robot, and if it fell off, you wouldn't accomplish that mission, but your robot was off doing other things, so why would you care? Now, the same thing can be accomplished mechanically. See this video for further information (it's in the part with the gate). Overall, using carts to accomplish tasks is very effecient way to handle things.
__________________
CHILL OUT! | Stability & Control Engineer
Adam Savage's Obsessions (TED Talk) (Part 2)
It is much easier to call someone else a genius than admit to yourself that you are lazy. - Dave Gingery
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-18-2006, 02:11 PM
Dylan's Avatar
Dylan Dylan is offline
FRC Mentor
AKA: Dylan Stoll
FRC #0830 (Rat Pack)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Posts: 310
Dylan has much to be proud ofDylan has much to be proud ofDylan has much to be proud ofDylan has much to be proud ofDylan has much to be proud ofDylan has much to be proud ofDylan has much to be proud ofDylan has much to be proud of
Send a message via AIM to Dylan Send a message via Yahoo to Dylan
Re: Pnuematics?

Do you mean they actually made a pneumatics system that functioned like a motor? I couldn't tell from the video.
__________________
"It's like timing a monkey!"-me (explanation avalible by PM request)

"You can't spread Democracy with the barrel of a gun" ~ Helen Thomas

2006 Great Lakes Regional Semi-Finalists (Thanks to our allies: Team 66 and Team 68)
Thanks 469 for lending us your old OI in ATL!
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-19-2006, 02:50 PM
Vikesrock's Avatar
Vikesrock Vikesrock is offline
Team 2175 Founder
AKA: Kevin O'Connor
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 3,305
Vikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Vikesrock Send a message via MSN to Vikesrock Send a message via Yahoo to Vikesrock
Re: Pnuematics?

That cart looks to be powered by either a pullback motor or rubberband drive of some type.

During the Mission Mars challenge one mission required the delivery of a ball into a container so it could be launched "back to earth". Our team accomplished this by carrying the ball in a container with a pneumatic trap door type device that allowed the bottom to drop out and the ball to be fall through. The biggest issue I found with the pneumatics is that the piston, switch and tank all have to be placed on the robot and attatching the switch to a motor (if that is how you want to activate it) can be difficult if you want any other type of motorized device.

The various pullback motors on the other hand i have found to be very useful. They were far more useful before the rule that requires the robot to leave base before completeing missions, but with a bit of inovation they can still be quite handy.
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-20-2006, 04:10 PM
Jeff 801's Avatar
Jeff 801 Jeff 801 is offline
Registered User
no team
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 347
Jeff 801 has a reputation beyond reputeJeff 801 has a reputation beyond reputeJeff 801 has a reputation beyond reputeJeff 801 has a reputation beyond reputeJeff 801 has a reputation beyond reputeJeff 801 has a reputation beyond reputeJeff 801 has a reputation beyond reputeJeff 801 has a reputation beyond reputeJeff 801 has a reputation beyond reputeJeff 801 has a reputation beyond reputeJeff 801 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pnuematics?

They are aloud but it would to hook the valve up to a motor and a wast of a motor
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-07-2006, 12:04 PM
Ken Streeter's Avatar
Ken Streeter Ken Streeter is offline
Let the MAYHEM begin!
FRC #1519 (Mechanical Mayhem)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Team: Milford, NH; Me: Bedford, NH
Posts: 387
Ken Streeter has a reputation beyond reputeKen Streeter has a reputation beyond reputeKen Streeter has a reputation beyond reputeKen Streeter has a reputation beyond reputeKen Streeter has a reputation beyond reputeKen Streeter has a reputation beyond reputeKen Streeter has a reputation beyond reputeKen Streeter has a reputation beyond reputeKen Streeter has a reputation beyond reputeKen Streeter has a reputation beyond reputeKen Streeter has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pnuematics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan
... I was wondering if pneumatics are allowed on the robot. The rules do say that there is no limit on non-electric components as long as they are in "factory condition", but it does not mention pneumatics.

If they are allowed, has any one used them before? If so, what kind of success did they have?
Yes, pneumatics are allowed, as they are non-electric LEGO components.

One of the teams that I coach, Mindstorms Mayhem, used pneumatics to power the "dump mechanism" on a "dump truck" that they used in the 2005 "No Limits" challenge. To see video of this attachment in use, see the first video on the "Team Videos" page: http://www.mindstormsmayhem.org/team-videos.asp

The attachment in question is the "next-to-last" mission in the round. (FYI, the infamous "ball extractor" is also shown in the above video -- this was also the highest-scoring round at the 2005 World Festival, resulting in Mindstorms Mayhem being awarded the First Place Performance Award.)

In the video, you can also see one of the difficulties with the use of pneumatics -- since only three motors are permitted in FLL, there isn't a good way to have the pneumatic cylinders be charged by the robot without devoting the third motor to this use. The approach that Mindstorms Mayhem used was to have three pneumatic cylinders (lots of air) that were charged manually by the robot handler just prior to running the mission. If you watch the video carefully, you can see the robot handler pumping up the cylinders manually just before launching the "dump truck" on its mission. The main reason that it was decided to use the pneumatics for this mission is that the "dump truck" wasn't actually the robot -- the dump truck was powered by windup motors, and used the pneumatics for the dumping action. The dump truck was simply launched by the robot -- for that mission, the robot itself never actually left the base. This year's rules would not permit the specific approach that Mindstorms Mayhem used to solve that mission in 2005.

Other problems with the pneumatics include the fact that air leaks are very hard to track down and diagnose; the air cylinders are pretty large, and it takes a lot of air to move anything significant. That said, the pneumatics are good for some specialized tasks. The Mayhemers aren't currently planning to use pneumatics for any tasks this year, but haven't ruled it out, either...

Best Regards,
--ken
__________________
Ken Streeter - Team 1519 - Mechanical Mayhem (Milford Area Youth Homeschoolers Enriching Minds)
2013 Archimedes Division Winners with 33 & 469
2013 & 2012 North Carolina Regional Winners with teams 435 & 4828 and 1311 & 2642
2011, 2010, 2006 Granite State Regional Winners with teams 175 & 176, 1073 & 1058, and 1276 & 133
Team 1519 Video Gallery - including Chairman's Video, and the infamous "Speed Racer!"
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-07-2006, 12:49 PM
EHaskins EHaskins is offline
Needs to change his user title.
AKA: Eric Haskins
no team (CARD #6 (SCOE))
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Elkhorn, WI USA
Posts: 998
EHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to EHaskins Send a message via Skype™ to EHaskins
Re: Pnuematics?

They are allowed, but I don't believe they would be of much use. You end up needing one motor to provide pressure, and at least one motor to control a value. You have just used two of your three motors, and you probably could do the same thing with one motor that had some gear reductions.
__________________
Eric Haskins KC9JVH
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
pnuematics great_one411 Pneumatics 1 02-16-2003 10:50 AM
Pnuematics Manual ark_1230 Pneumatics 2 09-09-2002 05:29 PM
leaky pnuematics???? archiver 2001 1 06-24-2002 01:18 AM
Pnuematics archiver 2001 4 06-23-2002 09:55 PM
Pnuematics Travis Covington Pneumatics 2 01-22-2002 09:09 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:34 PM.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi