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Unread 08-13-2001, 04:53 PM
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Question The Future of Nationals

There was some discussion at the team forum about how to do Nationals in the future. I would be curious to hear what everyone thinks. The concern from FIRST was that Disney is running out of space and resources (ie. already have biggest temporary ampatheater and tent ever constructed by them) and the competition will grow, how do we continue to do nationals? Some suggestions were:
1. Based on last years performance you get selected to go to nationals this year.
2. Qualification for nationals from how you did this year.
3. Leave it open as in years past and let Disney deal with it.
Obviously there are pros and cons to each. What are additional thoughts as well as your pros and cons on the above?
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Unread 08-13-2001, 05:23 PM
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I'd like to sewe what Disney has planned, I think possibly a multi-park event would work. Also somthing sorta like the olympics where we take over a town would be kool.

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Unread 08-13-2001, 05:45 PM
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Well, really, the biggest concern is where to put finals. I mean, there's plenty of room to put up more tents or set up more playing fields if need be and fairly easy as well. But, it really comes down to where they will put everyone for finals. It is very difficult to set up a bigger theatre for finals. As far as making it a multi-park event, it would be a pain to transport robots from one park to the next for finals. And you wouldn't get to see how any of the other divisions are doing. Plus, EPCOT's parking lot is definitely big enough to set up more tents. And even with multi-park events, we still have the same problem of where to put everyone for the finals.

Well, those are just my thoughts.

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Unread 08-13-2001, 06:52 PM
Adrian Wong Adrian Wong is offline
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Perhaps abandoning the amphitheater style setup and going with something like a stadium layout? Instead of a 160 - 180 degree viewing angle, you can have a complete 360 degree wraparound seating arrangement, with the field centered at the middle. With a large enough field area, you could even have the division fields in the center, with passageways radiating out to separate tents for each division.

Viewers get to see all the matches. Teams have more personal space in their division tent, yet still have easy access to the central staging area.

Last edited by Adrian Wong : 08-13-2001 at 07:14 PM.
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Unread 08-13-2001, 07:59 PM
Jessica Boucher Jessica Boucher is offline
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About finals...

...I personally think that finals is merely a transportation problem for FIRST/EPCOT, and not a capacity issue. If future finals are anything like this years, they will be rather sparse.

The capacity issue comes into play during the awards. Transportation is an issue here, too...but by then you'd only be transporting people....by that time you could have all the non-finals crates packed up, and Mears is doing a great job already with people-moving.

You know, I just had a thought (stand back, it may be strange)...maybe Disney is the thing holding us back with this "competition in the round" type deal. It may not be an issue of bleacher space at all, it may just be that there is no space to put all the stuff that goes WITH the stage, such as all the electronics, the production trailer, and the "Disney Entertainment" trailer, not to mention the catwalks and the VIP area, without blocking any more viewer vision.

Maybe the answer to this is...how has "competition in the round" been settled at regionals, and how can that be adapted to Nationals?

Plus, please dont reply with your gripes about how the stage is set up, and why theres so much space for the media & the VIPs...lets work towards a solution this time.
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Unread 08-13-2001, 09:16 PM
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I still think what I like best is an idea brought up at the NH forum (by the T157 folks I believe):

Do a 'National' on each coast... afterall, we're not utilizing the fact that 'Disneyland' is on the other coast and could maybe use a little popularization by a mass attendence of people.

Two nationals would slightly regionalize the pack.. but the option could still exist to go to either and ways to prioritize who gets to go where could all be figured in. This would all us to cut the attendence at each event to half of what it is at Disney currently, giving us the room to double the # of teams before running into this sort of problem again.

It also somewhat brings up the stress that Nationals aren't about "going to Disneyworld" (though it's fun) and start to take the 'stress' of nationals. This way, we could get to what FIRST sees as the future... when regionals are the Place-to-be and nationals, if they still exist, and be restricted entrance by performace because everyone will have equal access to regionals.

.. and on the 2 nationals.. the winner of each meet at a place specified by FIRST to play it out... i think it's about time FIRST go back to the WasingtonDC and strut our stuff.. why not have the "World Series" of FIRST at a world capital.

I think it's the best idea I've heard since slicing bread and I think qualifying for nationals can't really happen until a few years down the road.

As for the multi-park competition... a couple of dislikes.. if that is the case, why waste the cash on Disney and just hold 4 'mini-nationals' around the country.. at least divisions as they stand are in a single place and anyone can easily access and see other teams in other divisions.. (my two old teams where both in different divisions from myself.. and I wouldn't have been able to see either of them).. and then sure, play the finals on one field.. but when you are trying to focus on winning a National, who wants to be trying to repack then unpack all there stuff for transport from MGM to Epcot..

I mean, I hate having to get on the bus and get from one park to another.. never mind trying to pack my pit, my 'bot, my spirit stuff, and my team and get them there and reset-up!

my thoughts
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Unread 08-13-2001, 11:29 PM
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I think the two nationals is crazy. I was at that forum in NH and saw the reaction from both the FIRST members and the forum members.

I think Disney has to give us more lean-way. They want us to stop growing and we all know that Dean and the Board of Directors would never let that happen. We have to negotiate with Disney and find something that is mutually benefitial for both of us. I mean, I crunched some rough numbers and I figured the three days the competition happens, we make Disney at least $6,000,000 (6 millions dollars) gross profit. Probably more. If we continue to increase in size, we continue to line their pockets with more and more money. I'm sure a settlement can be reached, but it's only we both sides come to the table with clear thoughts and will listen to the other side. We're benefitial to each other, we just have to listen.

OK, that's enough of my speal. Go onto your lives (if you have one).
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Unread 08-14-2001, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
when regionals are the Place-to-be and nationals, if they still exist, and be restricted entrance by performace because everyone will have equal access to regionals.
The problem with that is trying to make hotel reservations for nationals. It's tough enough trying to make reservatios in January. Try making them 2 weeks before because you don't know if you're going or not.
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Unread 08-14-2001, 01:23 PM
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Exactly!!!!
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Unread 08-14-2001, 02:21 PM
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Ask the Little Leaguers

Quote:
Originally posted by EddieMcD

The problem with that is trying to make hotel reservations for nationals. It's tough enough trying to make reservatios in January. Try making them 2 weeks before because you don't know if you're going or not.
About having two different Nationals, and having the finals in someplace like Washinton DC... I think that's a great idea, and it can be done.

Making travel reservations would not be that tough... the harder thing would be to get the students out of school for the additional time of a National Finals in someplace like Washington DC.

For this option there real choice would be when the have the DC Finals.

It could take place two weeks after the Disney-Nationals. Teams can do the travel planning... if you think they can't, ask all of those Little Leaguers in Williamsport PA next week. And none of them are sponsored by corporations, just by parents and communities.

Getting the students out of class for another 3-4 days would be tougher than the money.

A better solution would be to wait until school is out for the DC Finals. This extra time would provide these things:
1. Gives teams a chance to plan their trips
2. Gives FIRST staff a chance to breathe after the Disney-Nationals.
3. Gives more attention to the teams who are going to the finals (community and Nationwide).

Andy B.
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Unread 08-14-2001, 02:39 PM
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The problem with too long of a delay is that people will loose interest. If you want to do finals like that, it needs to happen a very short amount of time afterwards. Actually, 4v0 could benefit this as there's no need for the teams to be in the same location.

Matt
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Unread 08-14-2001, 04:47 PM
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Yes, but didn't FIRST say it was going to be a competition this year?

Quote:
It could take place two weeks after the Disney-Nationals. Teams can do the travel planning... if you think they can't, ask all of those Little Leaguers in Williamsport PA next week. And none of them are sponsored by corporations, just by parents and communities.
That might be true, but you have to remember that the hotels in Disney and other places nearby are going to be populated during the nationals not only by FIRSTers, but people wanting to go to Disney (and that's a lot). Williamsport hotels probably will populated only by people who are going to see the World Series.

On the side, a little league team from upstate RI plays tonight for the trip to Williamsport.
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Unread 08-14-2001, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Matt Leese
The problem with too long of a delay is that people will loose interest. If you want to do finals like that, it needs to happen a very short amount of time afterwards. Actually, 4v0 could benefit this as there's no need for the teams to be in the same location.

Matt

who are you saying that will loose interest? i certainly won't. i feel that it would pump me up even more
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Unread 08-14-2001, 10:16 PM
Carolyn Duncan Carolyn Duncan is offline
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Ok, here goes. I'm gonna try to respond to what everyone has posted and add my $0.02.
Andrew said to multi park the event, not gonna happen well. Moving the teams, robots, tools, and other pit stuff isn't gonna work. The teams will be unprepared for their matches due to the inability to scout, this year is supposed to be competition again. The idea of taking over a town like the Olympics would be great. One problem, what town? FIRST isn't as big as the Olympics so what town would allow us to take over? It would have to be near FIRST HQ, which many people have said they don't want to be up north for nationals.
Adrian, I'm liking the 360 idea. That makes sense to me, I wondered why they didn't do that last year when I saw the setup, I was a rookie so I didn't realize that's how it's been forever.
Jessica's comment about Disney holding us back is really accurate. There are ways for Disney to setup all their stuff without it being in the way. They could lay fake flooring over wires onthe ground and duct tape them down under that. Setup a booth behind the stands, like a sky box at a pro game.
Colleen, I'm thinking that having events at both Disney parks would be like multi parking in Orlando, except that this would put a definate riff betweeen the 2 coasts. Sorta like splitting between AFC and NFC. There would be a split that would defeat the purpose of getting everyone together at nationals.
Leon brought up that Disney wants us to stop growing, yet our homework assignment this year was to increase the number of college teams. Go figure. I cannot believe that we are a financial burden on Disney as was pointed out be Leon's figures; 6 million in their pockets is about the profits of a movie, not so bad for 3 days versus a year.
Eddie's point about hotels is huge. We can all go and fill up the Disney hotels if there is vacancy but they would most likely be filled anyway. Which is better, having plans of these roome being filled by FIRSTers and counting on the money or speculation? Personally, I'd bet on the sure thing.
Andy suggested finals in DC. This is a possibility but I personally would not want to be in a prime target area with diplomats everywhere. I used to live there, there are many places you don't wanna be. Before people start telling me that that is the situation in most cities I'll say this: it's not isolated parts of the city that are bad it's every street corner. Any street you cross you have to hope that a diplomat doesn't wanna run the red light and execise his diplomatic imunity. You will get run over in DC if you're not exceptionally carefull. DC is really not the best place to have a competition like that with a large volume of people. Don't get me wrong I love the city, I miss living there sometimes. Then I think about the crap and it makes me glad I don't live there anymore.
Matt, teams wouldn't loose interest in the competition but any hopes of media coverage would be shot. The delay would force media to schedule for multiple events which could put thestrain on thecoverage. It would be very little coverage and nothing good.
As for my thoughts, I'll try to be brief. I think we need to figure out a way to have the competition with everyone there. Suggestions have been made to buy an old football stadium. Sounds good to me, especially if the city has hosted a Super Bowl. This would mean plenty of hotel space and capacity to hold everyone. I am not pushing the idea of dopping Disney but if they are unwilling to suport our growth how can we stay with them? It is possible for Disney to work with us a bit more than they seem to be. Mybe it's time to get out of the parking lot and move into something a bit more permanent. There is another discusion about this going on in the national competition forum, I recomend reading that too. Sorry for writing a novel but I hope this covers everything.
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Unread 08-15-2001, 12:31 AM
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Talking

Well a couple things-

Despite what everyone thinks- Disney doesn't need us, the exact hassle, or the exact groups of kids annoying other patrons to stay afloat or anything. We come during a very busy season for them and I'm sure if we picked a less popular season to hold our competition, nothing would be as big of a deal.

But we do it in April. And doing it in April, this is what we have.

Basically, at this point there are a couple options.. all of which involve ditching the 'everybody get together' at Nationals concept. Because I just don't see the multi-park as happen because it would be such a huge nuisance to get those teams moved and resettled just for the final matches. It seems rather ridiculous.. and I think we're better to play those last matches elsewhere.

As for planning in two weeks: well, I gotta go with Andy B there and say that planning travel for WashingtonDC or something wouldn't be very hard. And FIRST could even reserve Xrooms for each team that would be attending and the teams could just pay FIRST for them. Then the online thing to worry about is airfare.. and well, travelling to Orlando is totally different than going to most places.. it's a hopping destination no matter when...

And I totally agree.. 2 week planning and reservation for Disney would be nearly impossible.. and that is why regionals can't be qualifiers for Nationals.. cause that logistic just wouldn't work... and teams at earlier regionals would have a major advantage.

I think no matter what happens.. nationals won't work as this big, happy, 'let's get together' social event.... but it can still be big, happy, beneficial, and fun for all those who have the opportunity to participate.

And everyone should have that opportunity.
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