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 Chief Delphi Question on mounting PVC for flag
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#1
02-07-2007, 11:57 PM
 waialua359 Mentor AKA: Glenn FRC #0359 (Hawaiian Kids) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Apr 2003 Rookie Year: 2000 Location: Waialua, HI Posts: 3,202
Question on mounting PVC for flag

If our team has a moving arm which is the highest point of our robot, how do we mount a flag which supposed to be 18" higher minimum above our robot vertically at all times??
Can someone provide clarification on this?
#2
02-08-2007, 12:12 AM
 Travis Covington Engineering Mentor FRC #0254 Team Role: Engineer Join Date: Oct 2001 Rookie Year: 1998 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 567
Re: Question on mounting PVC for flag

That refers to the distance above your robot in its starting configuration, be it 4, 5, or 6 feet.
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#3
02-08-2007, 12:15 AM
 eugenebrooks Team Role: Engineer AKA: Dr. Brooks no team (WRRF) Join Date: Jan 2004 Rookie Year: 2001 Location: Livermore, CA Posts: 601
Re: Question on mounting PVC for flag

Quote:
 Originally Posted by waialua359 If our team has a moving arm which is the highest point of our robot, how do we mount a flag which supposed to be 18" higher minimum above our robot vertically at all times?? Can someone provide clarification on this?
There is no need for the flag to be higher than a moving arm
that swings around. It would be reasonable to mount it so that
it sticks up 18 inches higher than the highest portion of your robot
that does not swing around, so that it is easily seen.

Eugene
#4
02-08-2007, 07:02 AM
 Alan Anderson Software Architect FRC #0045 (TechnoKats) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Feb 2004 Rookie Year: 2004 Location: Kokomo, Indiana Posts: 9,065
Re: Question on mounting PVC for flag

<R15> says, in part:
Quote:
 ...The flag holder must be permanently mounted to the ROBOT such that when the ROBOT is in any PLAYING CONFIGURATION and the FLAG is in the flag holder, the FLAG is approximately vertical and the top of the FLAG is a minimum of 18 inches higher than any point on the central mass or structure of the ROBOT (note: ROBOT arms, appendages, and extensions may temporarily intrude into the space above the top of the ROBOT and exceed this height of the FLAG – this a normal part of game play, and will not be considered a violation of this rule).
Note what I have highlighted in red and the part in parentheses.
#5
02-08-2007, 07:41 AM
 ChrisMcK2186 Typer of doom AKA: Chris McKenzie FRC #2186 (Westfield Robotics) Team Role: Leadership Join Date: Jan 2007 Rookie Year: 2007 Location: Centreville Posts: 193
Re: Question on mounting PVC for flag

If you were to mount it in such a way that the arm cannot waste it and it is the highest point without damaging the flag, im sure it will work.

Chris
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#6
02-08-2007, 09:28 AM
 haroony341 Registered User FRC #0341 (Wissahickon HS & NMTCC) FRC#2234 (The Episcopal Academy) Team Role: College Student Join Date: Jan 2005 Rookie Year: 2001 Location: Lower Gwynedd, Pa Posts: 70
Re: Question on mounting PVC for flag

what about if the highest point of a teams robot is their ramps, and they come down at the end of the match, are you allowed to attached the flag holder to the top of the ramp so it will com down with the ramp? or does it have to hold its own at that height?
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#7
02-08-2007, 10:04 AM
 Don Wright Registered User FRC #0469 Team Role: Engineer Join Date: Jan 2003 Rookie Year: 2003 Location: Livonia, MI Posts: 683
Re: Question on mounting PVC for flag

Q:We have a question concerning the placement of the flag. One of our ideas is to have a large unfolding ramp, onto which we would mount the flag. Throughout the majority of the match, our ramp will be folded up, and is by far the highest point on the robot. When our ramp unfolds in the last 15 seconds of the match, the flag would be lower than the rest of our robot, and would be pointed horizontally. Since this is a temporary condition, only at the end of the match, would this be permissible?

A:No. That would be a violation of Rule <R15>.
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#8
02-08-2007, 10:22 AM
 GaryVoshol Cogito ergo arbitro no team Join Date: Aug 2005 Rookie Year: 2000 Location: Royal Oak, MI Posts: 5,568
Re: Question on mounting PVC for flag

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Question 1) R15 says that the flag holder must be permanently mounted to the "central mass" of the robot. Can I assume central mass is any part that does not move or is it any structure that starts the match within the allowed starting box even if it might move and tilt the flag? 2) R15 say that arms and appendages may "temporarily intrude" above the flag. Does this mean that you can start the match within the legal starting box but with an appendage that is well above the flag as long as it is intended to move sometime during the match? My concern is the word "temprorary" since this condition may exist for the majority of the match during scoring when appendages may always be above the central mass of the robot.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Answer During the match the flag must remain approximately vertical. If it is mounted to a body part that tilts significantly, then this is not an appropriate mounting point. The intent of Rule is that during the majority of match play the flag is the tallest point on the robot, so that it may be easily seen and the alliance assignment of the robot may be easily determined. If an appendage or manipulator spends most of the match higher than the flag, then this is not a "temporary" condition. This would be considered a violation of Rule , and would need to be corrected before the robot would be allowed to play in another match.
You'll have to build a stationary attaching point so that the flag holder is at least as high as the arm most of the time.
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#9
02-08-2007, 11:25 AM
 haroony341 Registered User FRC #0341 (Wissahickon HS & NMTCC) FRC#2234 (The Episcopal Academy) Team Role: College Student Join Date: Jan 2005 Rookie Year: 2001 Location: Lower Gwynedd, Pa Posts: 70
Re: Question on mounting PVC for flag

it looks like if we can come up with a way to keep our flag verticalat all times even if it comes down with the ramp. like have the flag holder on a hinge and the bottom weighed down to keep it straight up. that would make it higher that the tallest point of our robot, assuming we are completly flat when the ramps are down. do you think that would be a violation or not?
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#10
02-08-2007, 02:11 PM
 waialua359 Mentor AKA: Glenn FRC #0359 (Hawaiian Kids) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Apr 2003 Rookie Year: 2000 Location: Waialua, HI Posts: 3,202
Re: Question on mounting PVC for flag

This is still not clear. Even though it says to be 18" higher than the central mass of the robot, it is still subjective due to ramps deploying, moving arms, etc.
Every team technically will have a different design which may dictate the correct height/positioning of the flag.
#11
02-08-2007, 05:29 PM
 Wetzel DC Robotics FRC #2914 (Tiger Pride) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Sep 2001 Rookie Year: 1999 Location: DC Posts: 3,521
Re: Question on mounting PVC for flag

This seems pretty clear to me. The flag should be above most of the robot most of the time. The holder needs to stay vertical so you don't dump it out on the field.

Remember, this is for identification purposes so think about that when placing your tube.

Wetzel
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#12
02-08-2007, 06:05 PM
 waialua359 Mentor AKA: Glenn FRC #0359 (Hawaiian Kids) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Apr 2003 Rookie Year: 2000 Location: Waialua, HI Posts: 3,202
Re: Question on mounting PVC for flag

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Wetzel This seems pretty clear to me. The flag should be above most of the robot most of the time. The holder needs to stay vertical so you don't dump it out on the field. Remember, this is for identification purposes so think about that when placing your tube. Wetzel
Your reasoning for where it should be placed and the purpose, I understand completely. But based on past experience, inspectors are VERY technical about meeting the rules, even the flag positioning.
However, "The flag should be above most of the robot most of the time" is still vague.
#13
02-08-2007, 10:30 PM
 Justin M. Mechanical/Driver FRC #0321 (RoboLancers) Team Role: Mechanical Join Date: Jan 2005 Rookie Year: 2005 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 310
Re: Question on mounting PVC for flag

We will be mounting it where "we feel is right". If it's not right at the competition, then we'll just simply ask the inspector to suggest a better place. This is why we never somewhat permanently mount the PVC.
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#14
02-08-2007, 11:29 PM
 waialua359 Mentor AKA: Glenn FRC #0359 (Hawaiian Kids) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Apr 2003 Rookie Year: 2000 Location: Waialua, HI Posts: 3,202
Re: Question on mounting PVC for flag

The problem for us is that our entire robot minus arm and ramp is only 12.25" above the ground max. If our ramp is deployed and arm moves which is just under 4' in the starting position, it will certainly rotate and move during the match, thus not give our flag a permanent vertical positioning.
Cant see making a 3' extension just for a flag.
We want to put our flag 18" above the central mass of the robot which is right above 12.25," but they may say "NO," it has to be 18 " higher than our 4' starting point, thus forcing us to create a huge "flagpole."
#15
02-09-2007, 06:02 AM
 Alan Anderson Software Architect FRC #0045 (TechnoKats) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Feb 2004 Rookie Year: 2004 Location: Kokomo, Indiana Posts: 9,065
Re: Question on mounting PVC for flag

Quote:
 Originally Posted by waialua359 Cant see making a 3' extension just for a flag.
In your case, I think making a dedicated flagpole sounds like the correct thing to do.

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