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  #151   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-27-2008, 12:21 PM
Akash Rastogi Akash Rastogi is offline
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Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?

"To be passed up when you are a good competitor, but don't make the cut to be on a STACKED allinace is insulting too."


Dude, teams have so many options sometimes they can be overwhelmed too. In Atlanta this year, we picked 71 because we trusted them and they are obviously one of the best performers in Atlanta. Our next choice-we took a risk. 2166 was not the best robot out there but we stuck by our decision in the end. We passed up good competitors there because we wanted to give them a chance. Now, do you think ANY of the other teams were insulted?? No, because they know what that team was scouting for what an they are looking for in that alliance. If you don't fit their alliance's criteria, then frankly IMHO you don't have a right to feel anything about that team's selection.

+0.02

Btw, how exactly can an alliance be STACKED as you say. There is never a stacked alliance because of serpentine selection (that's the whole point of it) Seeding of teams never stopped anyone from taking down the #1 alliance either. Trust me on that one. Just think of the 190 alliance from last year. 8th seed taking down the rest of Newton. Were the other alliances "STACKED?" maybe, but were they unbeatable? Clearly not. It all plays into strategy my friend.
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Last edited by Akash Rastogi : 06-27-2008 at 12:25 PM.
  #152   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-27-2008, 01:14 PM
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Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson View Post
This still doesn't make sense to me. Choosing to attend the Championship does not have anything to do with which regional competitions one picks. Can you explain why you call it "buying your way"? Can you explain how going to Atlanta is relevant to the number of regionals a team competes at?
Alan, I think he's talking about teams that sign up for the Championship in the Fall, during the open registration period.

Since every team has equal opportunity to register and pay for the Championship at the same time, this is not a fairness issue. It may be a have/have-not issue, in that teams that don't have the money can't reserve one of the spots. But that is irrelevant to the argument that one of those teams shouldn't compete for a spot. If a team already registered wins a regional event, the spot that was being held for them is made available to teams on the waiting list. No one is harmed if a team pre-registered for Atlanta wins a regional.
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  #153   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-27-2008, 02:03 PM
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Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy1718 View Post
Take 217 abd 469 at the detroit regional this year, they could have taken a team that could play good defense, but they didn't, they picked a team that wasn't great(I mean no harm by this, if I affend someone sorry), didn't have much money, and was a 4 or 3 person team. Yeah they picked one another, but bringing in that third pick was beter than oblitterating everyone.
That team which you just insulted (despite your weak disclaimer and apology), Team 440, actually won two regionals this year. So they not as weak as you perceive them to be. From talking to members of Team 217, I know for a fact that this was not a pity pick. They had been scouting 440 all weekend long, and were hoping they would be available in the second round of the draft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzy1718
I am by no means speakng for my team, these are my personal thoughts and wish that you not think of my team any differantly after reading any of my posts.
Fuzzy1718,

You can lay out all the disclaimers that you want, but the bottom line is you are representing your team. Every action you make and every word you speak while your team number is attached to you will be perceived as a representation of your team. This is a lesson many individuals have learned the hard way over the years. You should keep that in mind. It may not be fair that people judge a team based on the actions of one squeaky wheel, but it is unfortunately what happens.
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  #154   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-27-2008, 02:49 PM
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Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?

I'm not sure, but somehow I feel like the true meaning of FIRST has been completely blindsighted here. FIRST is here, not for us to win regionals. Or go to the Championship competition. It's not a program based around bringing home trophies and medals. Rather, FIRST is about learning life experiences from mentors, coaches, teachers, and even friends. It's about finding a program that helps steer you in the right direction; a program that is there to guide your future. It's about meeting new people, expanding your horizons. And making memories that will last a lifetime in the process.

You don't need to go to the Championship for this kind of experience. You can find it during the regionals. You can find it during build season. You can even find it right here on CD, where FIRSTers all around the world come together and share their information with others, hoping what they say will help at least one other person.

FIRST is a competition, yes. But it so much more than that.

Competing at multiple regionals or Championship events has no bearing on the life lessons you will learn or the unbelievable memories you will have--for that is what FIRST is truly all about.
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Last edited by Alivia : 06-27-2008 at 02:56 PM.
  #155   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-27-2008, 08:15 PM
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Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?

Fuzzy,
Your points has some merit if true......but should be directed in a PM or meeting instead of posting here on CD.
Some teams simply go to more than one regional to meet new teams and to get experiences that the host city/area has to offer. Are they trying to strategically win at all regionals?? Of course they are! Why would they attend a regional and not try to win at a competition?
As stated earlier, teams that dont have a sense of purpose/focus on strategies, scouting, and teamwork just there to "experience" something, IMO, is more unjust than teams that do, regardless if the end result is NOT giving more chances for a team to qualify to Atlanta.
Remember, every team still has to put a great deal of time, effort and $$$$ to participate in such a great learning experience.
The thing I hate the most are teams that are so unfocused (not strategizing, not show up for a match, make no effort to being prepared) because they screw up opportunities of the other 2 teams that may have tried hard to be successful. Again, that is extremely frustrating.
I know that you didn't mention this, however, perhaps this could be the reason why it seems that the same veteran teams MAY choose friends over another team. They choose their friends because of positive past relationships, there is trust between the teams, or they just simply complement each other well.
I think as a veteran team who has done FIRST the past 9 years, it is almost impossible to select and scout every team perfectly and deeply enough that you can choose the best alliance possible. Sometimes when it comes to that 3rd alliance partner, the criteria for choosing becomes less apparent and you have oh so little time to decide! i.e. 1 hour after the last round of regular competition play.
In the end, I know you understand what's being said here and you have some merit (simply because I wasn't there to experience what you heard). Teams who may feel what you are saying should take the necessary steps to overcome that with communication and a much more positive attitude.

I get more questions about our beaches than interests on what our robot can do every year.
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Last edited by waialua359 : 06-27-2008 at 08:20 PM.
  #156   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-29-2008, 04:23 PM
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Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?

First off, Fuzzy, I know your team, I know you guys build a solid robot every year. Second, I left 27 for a team that has only competed at the Championship twice in its history and bought its way in both times. Relevant because I know what it is like to be consistently passed over because you aren't one of the big name teams. There are a few ways you can fix this, you can moan and complain on Chief. You could also just accept it and realize that's how it is going to be. Or you could say, what do these teams have that I don't?

I wouldn't want to be picked because another team felt bad for us. That is more insulting to me than anything they could say. 440 was NOT a pity pick. They were among the best lapbots there.

As for teams not picking rookie teams, 2337 comes to mind as a rookie team that was consistently picked high at wherever it played. So the argument that teams only pick veterans really is wrong.

Also, FIRST is not about going to the Championship, its not about the robots, it is about inspiring kids. How can we expect to inspire if we are not allowed to perform at our best? I don't know about you but I am inspired to work harder so that someday I can stand down on Einstein and compete. I go to each competition and compete. I give everything I have because to keep anything back is an insult to your alliance, you opponents, your team, and yourself.
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Unread 06-29-2008, 04:49 PM
fuzzy1718 fuzzy1718 is offline
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Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?

First off I never said a team with little money can't win, i simply said that the higher budget teams win more often.

An alliance can be stacked even without the 3rd pick, like what has happened at detroit the last few years. 2 or 3 great alliances, stacked is what I call them, and the rest can try as the may, but they are fighting an up hill battle in the rain, and often slip and fall. Usually these alliances consist of veteran power houses picking one another. A simple observation, taken the wrong way by quite a few people. I'm simply saying why pick one another, I understand that first isn't all about winning, in that what better way is there to learn that be picked by a veteran team, see how they operate in the playoffs. From the view point of the veteran it should, in my mind, be a win win situtation; they get to teach other teams and give them a taste of how to get better up close and personal, but they are going to atlanta already so there is no need to win the regional.

We didn't pick 440, because we weren't already going, therefore don't qualify as one of the teams I am talking about.

As far as all the disclaimers, I don't care that you think I'm talking for my team, but if I was then I would start every thing with "Team 1718 feels", and I didn't did I.

As far as the comment about 440, I by no means ment it in a harmful way if you take it that way after what I just repeated then you can hold your grudge, but if they (440) feel that I did them harm by that comment I'm sorry. If they are fine with it I really don't care what others think of the comment. I had no idea that they had won at other regionals, I simply had their performance at detroit to work with. By no means did I mean it was a "pity pick" that is your label, due to not percieving my comment the way I ment.

My posts, besides the first, probably don't belong on this thread, but where would you like me to put my thoughts, om a new thread that no one will respond to due to the subject?? I know what I'm talking about is a hot topic, because of its bias against powerhouse veterans, but something should be said. I have had parents that during there first year with frc thought that signing up for championships is wrong. I took what they say a step further. that is what got me thinking about the subject. signing-up for atlanta has a huge deal to do with how many regionals, if you sign-up for atlanta most teams who aren't high budget go to less regionals. I do think FIRST should get invovled and limit the number of events a team could go to. just like the have for the amount of $$ that you can spend on your robot.

I do understand what you guys are saying about the top 8 earning the right to pick who they choose. I simply want them to change the criteria of why they pick who they do. Do I agree with the top 8 picking amongst one another, no, but what are you going to do. That is one rule that will never be changed, so I'm trying to change teams views, and since in my area the powerhouse veterans do this, I aim it at them.

As far as legacy teams and hall of fame teams I didn't even know that this was a rule, now that I do I really think it should be changed. And no I don't think that they needed to go to Finger lakes, they have regionals here to compete in that are highly competitve, let the teams out there compete in their own regional. It is called a regional for a reason, so the best of a region can represent that region in the championships. I think people have lost sight in this. People always talk about what region is better than others well campionships are the way to sort that out. I understand that FIRST doesn't want the regions at one anothers throats, that is why they split them up in atlanta.

Mentors let me her wha the students have to say I don't care of your opionions, your not the focus of FIRST, your students are.
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Last edited by fuzzy1718 : 06-29-2008 at 04:55 PM.
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Unread 06-29-2008, 05:12 PM
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Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?

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Originally Posted by fuzzy1718 View Post

Mentors let me her wha the students have to say I don't care of your opionions, your not the focus of FIRST, your students are.
With an attitude like that, don't be surprised if no one thinks your opinion matters.

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Unread 06-29-2008, 05:31 PM
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Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy1718 View Post
As far as legacy teams and hall of fame teams I didn't even know that this was a rule, now that I do I really think it should be changed. And no I don't think that they needed to go to Finger lakes, they have regionals here to compete in that are highly competitve, let the teams out there compete in their own regional. It is called a regional for a reason, so the best of a region can represent that region in the championships. I think people have lost sight in this. People always talk about what region is better than others well campionships are the way to sort that out. I understand that FIRST doesn't want the regions at one anothers throats, that is why they split them up in atlanta.

Mentors let me her wha the students have to say I don't care of your opionions, your not the focus of FIRST, your students are.
I'll start this post by saying that I am a freshman in high school.

Teams earn the right to compete at any regional they want. FIRST is a learning experience. You need to learn to work with many different people. If you went to the same local regional every year, you would end up making friends there, and being allied with them all the time (I don't have a problem with this, but it doesn't seem to be what you want).Traveling to different regionals mixes up fields and helps teams make friends from all around the country.

I'll tell you which region is best, it's the Midwest region (this is just based on my opinion, there are many great teams elsewhere).

Teams work hard to get to any level. 99.9 percent of the time they deserve everything they have. They get there through hard work and perserverence. It seems to me that you are trying to bring down teams that have worked so hard to get to where they are. Hard work deserves rewards. Being a legacy team or a hall of fame team takes a lot of work, going to Atlanta is a good reward for that.
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Unread 06-29-2008, 05:49 PM
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Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy1718 View Post
I do understand what you guys are saying about the top 8 earning the right to pick who they choose. I simply want them to change the criteria of why they pick who they do. Do I agree with the top 8 picking amongst one another, no, but what are you going to do. That is one rule that will never be changed, so I'm trying to change teams views, and since in my area the powerhouse veterans do this, I aim it at them.
Let me ask you a question, if you were number one seed are you going to pick a team with which you can win or a team which hasn't really done anything that would help you? I would say that the team that would help me win would be the best choice. Now if you want to choose the other fine, like you said, you earned that right to choose for yourself. Under no circumstances should another team ever feel pressured to pick a team if they do not want to. So you think we shouldn't pick a team that will help us win, fine, you made your point. I will choose to disagree.

I feel the "powerhouse veterans" are not the problem. I agree that there is an imbalance between the haves and the have nots but such is the way of the world. FIRST is idealized enough, I really doubt that GP exists in the work world. I think that having teams pick teams based on if they are qualified already or not could actually harm FIRST in that it could discourage teams from being all they can be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy1718 View Post
Mentors let me her wha the students have to say I don't care of your opionions, your not the focus of FIRST, your students are.
I have a few things to say about this:
1) I may not agree with everything you have said but it has all been your opinion up until this point so I have treated it with respect. This goes over the line. Please do not ever disregard someone's opinion. It is rude and often you will miss learning important lessons. I respect what you have to say and I ask that you do the same for me.
2) The line between Mentor and Student does not actually exist, at least in my opinion. A Mentor is merely one with experience, this does not mean one is not still a student, there is always someone who knows more so we should all be students.
3) I agree that students are what FIRST is about but it is also about connecting them with people who can teach them. FIRST is about building a bridge between Industry and Education so as to inspire the students.
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Unread 06-29-2008, 06:06 PM
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Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?

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Originally Posted by fuzzy1718 View Post
Mentors let me her wha the students have to say I don't care of your opionions, your not the focus of FIRST, your students are.
<sigh> Here we go again. Rather than repeat what been said before (but apparently, not quite often enough), I will simply refer you to this post.

-dave

p.s. not to go off on too far of a tangent, but I am compelled to comment regarding the composition and grammar of the originating post. Please refer to this post. A well-written, concise, carefully considered, and well-presented, discussion is one that deserves an appropriate response. Such discussions often generate worthy debate, and may occasionally result in real changes to the system in question. However, a diatribe chock-full of spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, indecipherable shortcuts, and horrid sentence structure basically gives the message "I don't think enough of you to bother giving any real thought at all to my argument or how it is presented." In response, we can only reply, "if you care so little about the presentation of your position, then why should we care at all about providing a thoughtful response?"

Greg Ross, I, and several others, have brought up this concern more than once. We are not doing it just to be old grammar curmudgeons (as much fun as that may be). We do it to make a point. You are evaluated here primarily based on your ability to clearly communicate via the written word. At some point in the future your potential employers will evaluate you, in part, based on that same skill. I know of more than one case where someone has not been hired, or even lost a job, because they could not write clearly. The sooner that you understand that not just your reputation on the Chief Delphi forum, but potentially your future career choices, depend on cultivating that skill, the better prepared you will be for that career.


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Unread 06-29-2008, 06:08 PM
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Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy1718 View Post
Mentors let me her wha the students have to say I don't care of your opionions, your not the focus of FIRST, your students are.
FIRST has a mission statement that you might find enlightening.

Quote:
Mission
Our mission is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership.
Note especially the mentor-based part.

With that, I will stop short of applying a metaphorical two-by-four and stop trying to reach you, since you explicitly prefer not to be reached.
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Unread 06-29-2008, 06:14 PM
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Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy1718 View Post

As far as legacy teams and hall of fame teams I didn't even know that this was a rule, now that I do I really think it should be changed. And no I don't think that they needed to go to Finger lakes, they have regionals here to compete in that are highly competitve, let the teams out there compete in their own regional. It is called a regional for a reason, so the best of a region can represent that region in the championships. I think people have lost sight in this. People always talk about what region is better than others well campionships are the way to sort that out. I understand that FIRST doesn't want the regions at one anothers throats, that is why they split them up in atlanta.

Mentors let me her wha the students have to say I don't care of your opionions, your not the focus of FIRST, your students are.
Where has FIRST ever said that the intent of the regionals is for the best team from that area to win and represent the area at the championship?

FIRST doesn't split up the regions on purpose for Atlanta to "keep them from each other's throats" They sort them at random.

FIRST clearly doesn't care that teams attend out of state regionals. If anything I would imagine they're happy to see it happen, as it's good for the program. Furthermore, they're not going to turn down thousands of extra dollars, which would be exactly what they would be doing by limiting teams to the number of events they attend.

You claim that FIRST is not all about winning, but really you're just saying that it shouldn't be about the good teams winning-it should be about the teams you feel are disadvantaged winning.

Those "big budget" teams (and you have no idea what the budget of any of them may be, since you're not a member of the team and privy to that information) work hard for everything they have. They worked hard to gain sponsors, resources, etc. They work hard to inspire their students, and work hard to make good robots.

There's a reason for their success-TONS of hard work. Nobody can really understand how many hours these teams put in, without having seen it first hand themselves. The reason that these "veteran powerhouses" are so good is because when other teams are taking Sundays off, or going home early, they're hard at work burning the midnight oil, doing everything they can to be the best they possibly can be.

That work entitles them to pick whoever they please. Trying to handicap them and guilt trip them for their own success, and ask them to pick a team that does not represent the best choice is not right. As I said before, if you do any less than your best, you are compromising the integrity of the event.

Let's face it. When you're at the event, it IS a competition, and the best teams deserve to win, regardless of whether or not they are already qualified for the Championship.

Every year any team who wanted to go to the Championship could do so if they wanted to. There's always an open sign up period, and every year there are teams who are able to go who would have no chance of winning an event to qualify. If you want to go, raise the money, and sign up.

Your last line is just ignorant. Without mentors, you wouldn't even be participating in FIRST. Your team wouldn't exist, and FIRST as a program wouldn't exist. If it did, it'd just be another form of a science fair.
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Unread 06-29-2008, 07:08 PM
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Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?

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Originally Posted by fuzzy1718 View Post
First off I never said a team with little money can't win, i simply said that the higher budget teams win more often.

An alliance can be stacked even without the 3rd pick, like what has happened at detroit the last few years. 2 or 3 great alliances, stacked is what I call them, and the rest can try as the may, but they are fighting an up hill battle in the rain, and often slip and fall. Usually these alliances consist of veteran power houses picking one another. A simple observation, taken the wrong way by quite a few people. I'm simply saying why pick one another, I understand that first isn't all about winning, in that what better way is there to learn that be picked by a veteran team, see how they operate in the playoffs. From the view point of the veteran it should, in my mind, be a win win situtation; they get to teach other teams and give them a taste of how to get better up close and personal, but they are going to atlanta already so there is no need to win the regional.

We didn't pick 440, because we weren't already going, therefore don't qualify as one of the teams I am talking about.

As far as all the disclaimers, I don't care that you think I'm talking for my team, but if I was then I would start every thing with "Team 1718 feels", and I didn't did I.

As far as the comment about 440, I by no means ment it in a harmful way if you take it that way after what I just repeated then you can hold your grudge, but if they (440) feel that I did them harm by that comment I'm sorry. If they are fine with it I really don't care what others think of the comment. I had no idea that they had won at other regionals, I simply had their performance at detroit to work with. By no means did I mean it was a "pity pick" that is your label, due to not percieving my comment the way I ment.

My posts, besides the first, probably don't belong on this thread, but where would you like me to put my thoughts, om a new thread that no one will respond to due to the subject?? I know what I'm talking about is a hot topic, because of its bias against powerhouse veterans, but something should be said. I have had parents that during there first year with frc thought that signing up for championships is wrong. I took what they say a step further. that is what got me thinking about the subject. signing-up for atlanta has a huge deal to do with how many regionals, if you sign-up for atlanta most teams who aren't high budget go to less regionals. I do think FIRST should get invovled and limit the number of events a team could go to. just like the have for the amount of $$ that you can spend on your robot.

I do understand what you guys are saying about the top 8 earning the right to pick who they choose. I simply want them to change the criteria of why they pick who they do. Do I agree with the top 8 picking amongst one another, no, but what are you going to do. That is one rule that will never be changed, so I'm trying to change teams views, and since in my area the powerhouse veterans do this, I aim it at them.

As far as legacy teams and hall of fame teams I didn't even know that this was a rule, now that I do I really think it should be changed. And no I don't think that they needed to go to Finger lakes, they have regionals here to compete in that are highly competitve, let the teams out there compete in their own regional. It is called a regional for a reason, so the best of a region can represent that region in the championships. I think people have lost sight in this. People always talk about what region is better than others well campionships are the way to sort that out. I understand that FIRST doesn't want the regions at one anothers throats, that is why they split them up in atlanta.

Mentors let me her wha the students have to say I don't care of your opionions, your not the focus of FIRST, your students are.
Wow. Just wow.
You obviously have some sort of issue with teams that have had success because you just about stomped on each and every single one of them.And insulting the multiple senior FIRST mentors (many who are Woodie Flowers nominees) and blowing off their advice is a really nice touch.
Congratulations.
I'm sure you are very proud.
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Last edited by Koko Ed : 06-29-2008 at 07:58 PM.
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Unread 06-29-2008, 07:43 PM
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Re: Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?

A couple of thoughts -

1. Flexibility. To participate in FRC and to be successful as a team requires a respect for flexibility. If we narrow our views, our opinions, and our perspectives, then we begin to set limits. Those limits can develop rigid side effects. That seems counter productive in the areas of science and technology. To continue to develop the programs of FIRST and to continue to inspire students, mentors, sponsors, and the global community in science and technology, we have to remain flexible. That applies to discussions like these regarding teams competing and where they compete.

2. The importance of veteran teams. With new regionals cropping up globally, it is important for veteran teams to reach out and support those regionals during their inaugural year and perhaps longer. Veteran teams that have the resources to compete in more than one regional do hone their skills, as do the younger teams, that is true. What they are also doing in these competitions is sharing their experience, their knowledge, and the way in which they compete, on and off the field. If we are going to talk about elite teams or powerhouse teams, then we have to look at the whole picture and how these teams impact the FIRST community, not just a specific competition. If we only talk about a specific competition, then we are missing a lot, becoming rigid, limiting our own abilities and opportunities to improve.
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Last edited by JaneYoung : 06-29-2008 at 08:09 PM. Reason: clarifying
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