OCCRA
Go to Post You dont get paid based on your IQ, or how many things you have memorized, or what you can invent on your feet. You get paid for results. - KenWittlief [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Events   CD-Media   CD-Spy   FRC-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
View Poll Results: What do you think the size of the regionals are going to be in the quest for 5 points
Regionals will be larger 29 65.91%
Regionals will stay the same 11 25.00%
Regionals will be smaller 4 9.09%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-28-2001, 07:46 PM
Elgin Clock's Avatar
Elgin Clock Elgin Clock is offline
updates this status less than FB!
AKA: the one who "will break into your thoughts..."
FRC #0237 (Black Magic)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: H20-Town, Connecticut
Posts: 7,754
Elgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond reputeElgin Clock has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Elgin Clock
Smaller Nationals = Bigger Regionals?

Since the Nats are going to be considerably smaller this year do you think that the regionals are going to be larger? I know my team is thinking about attending more than one regional this year. I know this is the norm for a lot of teams but it is do you think that more teams are going to attend more than one regionals this year in order to qualify for Nats?

FIRST has to realise that by making the Nats smaller, it does not necessarily solve all thier problems!
__________________
The influence of many leads to the individuality of one. - E.C.C. (That's me!!)

Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-12-2010, 08:48 AM
Durza16's Avatar
Durza16 Durza16 is offline
Registered User
FRC #2062 (C.O.R.E.)
Team Role: Electrical
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 28
Durza16 is on a distinguished road
Re: Smaller Nationals = Bigger Regionals?

I think that the regionals will be getting larger, that s the only way that i can think that the Nationals will be smaller.
__________________
www.core2062.com
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-12-2010, 09:12 AM
Alan Anderson's Avatar
Alan Anderson Alan Anderson is offline
Software Architect
FRC #0045 (TechnoKats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Kokomo, Indiana
Posts: 7,893
Alan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Alan Anderson
Re: Smaller Nationals = Bigger Regionals?

I think this might be a record for thread resurrection.

There have been nine FRC seasons since Elgin asked the question. We've seen the transition from "Nationals" in the Epcot parking lot to the FIRST Championship in huge sports arenas. Regional competitions have increased greatly in number, if not in size.

I believe this year's push toward more matches for each team was the right thing to do, and it shows that larger competitions are not necessarily a good thing.
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-12-2010, 12:15 PM
yodameister yodameister is offline
The Mad Chemist
FRC #2791
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Latham, NY
Posts: 313
yodameister has a brilliant futureyodameister has a brilliant futureyodameister has a brilliant futureyodameister has a brilliant futureyodameister has a brilliant futureyodameister has a brilliant futureyodameister has a brilliant futureyodameister has a brilliant futureyodameister has a brilliant futureyodameister has a brilliant futureyodameister has a brilliant future
Re: Smaller Nationals = Bigger Regionals?

Holy thread resurrection Batman!
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-12-2010, 12:34 PM
Andrew Schreiber's Avatar
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
Data Nerd
FRC #0125 (NUTRONS) (EWCP)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Misplaced Michigander
Posts: 3,224
Andrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Smaller Nationals = Bigger Regionals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson View Post
I think this might be a record for thread resurrection.
Well, since this thing has been raised from the grave already and is craving brains I will give it some of mine. Yay Zombie Thread.

I am not sure if a smaller Championship would lead to bigger regionals but I know that smaller regionals lead to a bigger Championship. The min size of CMP is equal to 7*Regionals (4 champions, 1 EI, 1 CA, 1 Rookie).

This means that for a number of teams N there must N/40 regionals. (I am going to pick 40 as a size since it is FiM's size) or 43 regionals. This means the minimum size of CMP is 301. Now, if we decrease the size to 30 that number grows significantly to 397. This also assumes that all teams go to 1 regional and ignores 2 tier systems like FiM.

Using that logic (more smaller regionals creates a larger CMP) we can actually see that the converse must be true. If I cap CMP at 200 teams (4 divisions of 50) it means there can be at most 200/7 (28) regionals meaning we would have to have 1700/28 (61) teams at each regional. Also we can see that, as FRC gets bigger, regionals must scale linearly with team number.
__________________

Planning to top a 4 banner year...

Last edited by Andrew Schreiber : 05-12-2010 at 12:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-12-2010, 01:26 PM
Alan Anderson's Avatar
Alan Anderson Alan Anderson is offline
Software Architect
FRC #0045 (TechnoKats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Kokomo, Indiana
Posts: 7,893
Alan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Alan Anderson
Re: Smaller Nationals = Bigger Regionals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
...for a number of teams N there must N/40 regionals...
You have an unstated assumption regarding the number of matches played at a regional. If you're going to do a mathematical treatment, you need to make that assumption explicit. Better yet, derive it based on more basic parameters like the duration of the regional, the average time between matches, the number of teams playing each match, etc. The average time between matches depends in turn on match duration, field reset and robot synch time...and the number of fields being used. I think the 2006 Greater Toronto Regional was doing about four minutes between match starts, alternating between two fields so one match could be setting up while another was still underway.
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-12-2010, 01:31 PM
Andrew Schreiber's Avatar
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
Data Nerd
FRC #0125 (NUTRONS) (EWCP)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Misplaced Michigander
Posts: 3,224
Andrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Smaller Nationals = Bigger Regionals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson View Post
You have an unstated assumption regarding the number of matches played at a regional. If you're going to do a mathematical treatment, you need to make that assumption explicit. Better yet, derive it based on more basic parameters like the duration of the regional, the average time between matches, the number of teams playing each match, etc. The average time between matches depends in turn on match duration, field reset and robot synch time...and the number of fields being used. I think the 2006 Greater Toronto Regional was doing about four minutes between match starts, alternating between two fields so one match could be setting up while another was still underway.
Good points, I'll redo the calculations tonight when I have more time. Thanks.
__________________

Planning to top a 4 banner year...
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-12-2010, 01:37 PM
Chris is me's Avatar
Chris is me Chris is me is offline
Work harder, do better.
AKA: Pinecone
FRC #2791 (Shaker Robotics) (EWCP)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Troy, NY
Posts: 6,551
Chris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Chris is me
Re: Smaller Nationals = Bigger Regionals?

I read this thread and got scared that FIRST made an announcement about a smaller Championship...
__________________
Proud 2791 Mentor (2010-201?):
2014 FLR Motorola Quality / Semifinalists (with 341, 4930)
2013 WPI Regional #1 Seed / Delphi Excellence in Engineering / Finalists (with 20, 3182), BAE Motorola Quality
2012 BAE Imagery / Finalists (with 1519, 885), CT Xerox Creativity / Semifinalists (with 2168, 118)

Proud 1714 Alumnus (2009) - 2009 Minnesota 10,000 Lakes Regional Champions (with 2826, 2470)
2791 Build Season Photo Gallery - Look here for mechanism photos
My Robotics Blog (Updated April 11 2014)
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-12-2010, 04:51 PM
Chexposito's Avatar
Chexposito Chexposito is offline
Registered User
AKA: Expo
FRC #1730
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 268
Chexposito is a glorious beacon of lightChexposito is a glorious beacon of lightChexposito is a glorious beacon of lightChexposito is a glorious beacon of lightChexposito is a glorious beacon of lightChexposito is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Smaller Nationals = Bigger Regionals?

who says nationals will be smaller?
Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-12-2010, 04:54 PM
rtfgnow rtfgnow is offline
Registered User
AKA: Alex Tannahill
no team
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Here and There
Posts: 2,686
rtfgnow has a reputation beyond reputertfgnow has a reputation beyond reputertfgnow has a reputation beyond reputertfgnow has a reputation beyond reputertfgnow has a reputation beyond reputertfgnow has a reputation beyond reputertfgnow has a reputation beyond reputertfgnow has a reputation beyond reputertfgnow has a reputation beyond reputertfgnow has a reputation beyond reputertfgnow has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Smaller Nationals = Bigger Regionals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chexposito View Post
who says nationals will be smaller?
It was an announcement made back in 2001, do you not remember?
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-12-2010, 05:48 PM
Justin Montois's Avatar
Justin Montois Justin Montois is offline
FRCTop25.com
FRC #0340 (Greater Rochester Robotics)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 1,183
Justin Montois has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Montois has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Montois has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Montois has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Montois has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Montois has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Montois has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Montois has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Montois has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Montois has a reputation beyond reputeJustin Montois has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Justin Montois
Re: Smaller Nationals = Bigger Regionals?

I've always felt that the Championship event should have more of an IRI field of teams. I understand that the Championship event is an amazing experience and to 'punish' teams that struggle to build even a robot that runs isn't fair but I wish the Championship event was the best of the best.

Give teams something to strive for. Do some kids in college football play 4 years without ever playing in a bowl game, yup. And yeah that kinda sucks but I think our Championship event should have the best teams in the world, not just the teams that can afford it.

I'm not trying to be rude to the teams that were there and didn't have great seasons but let's be honest, there were teams there that didn't win a match at their regionals. That to me is a sign the system is a bit flawed. I'll be the first one to say that our robot probably didn't deserve to be at the Championship Event a couple years if it weren't for Chairmans. IDK i'm just thinking out loud.
__________________
My Blog
@jmontois340
Team 340
2014-Finger Lakes Regional Finalist with 3015 and 3044
2014-Tech Valley Regional Chairman's Award
2012-Buckeye Regional Champions With 1507 and 3015
2012-Finger Lakes Regional Chairman's Award
2012-Finger Lakes Regional Finalist with 3015 and 4124
2011-Finger Lakes Regional Chairman's Award
2011-Finger Lakes Regional Finalist with 1126 and 3157
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-12-2010, 06:56 PM
kjolana1124's Avatar
kjolana1124 kjolana1124 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Kelsey Jo Starr
FRC #1124 (The ÜberBots)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Blacksburg, VA
Posts: 231
kjolana1124 has a brilliant futurekjolana1124 has a brilliant futurekjolana1124 has a brilliant futurekjolana1124 has a brilliant futurekjolana1124 has a brilliant futurekjolana1124 has a brilliant futurekjolana1124 has a brilliant futurekjolana1124 has a brilliant futurekjolana1124 has a brilliant futurekjolana1124 has a brilliant futurekjolana1124 has a brilliant future
Send a message via Skype™ to kjolana1124
Re: Smaller Nationals = Bigger Regionals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 340x4xLife View Post
I've always felt that the Championship event should have more of an IRI field of teams. I understand that the Championship event is an amazing experience and to 'punish' teams that struggle to build even a robot that runs isn't fair but I wish the Championship event was the best of the best.

Give teams something to strive for. Do some kids in college football play 4 years without ever playing in a bowl game, yup. And yeah that kinda sucks but I think our Championship event should have the best teams in the world, not just the teams that can afford it.

I'm not trying to be rude to the teams that were there and didn't have great seasons but let's be honest, there were teams there that didn't win a match at their regionals. That to me is a sign the system is a bit flawed. I'll be the first one to say that our robot probably didn't deserve to be at the Championship Event a couple years if it weren't for Chairmans. IDK i'm just thinking out loud.
I have to agree here. As I recall they're going to begin cutting back on the amount of "automatic" spots allowed. I'm for this. Well, sort of.

In 2009, our team didn't even make eliminations during Hartford. We still went to Atlanta. It was an amazing experience unlike any other, and we made it to the quarter finals. I know I would've been really upset if our team didn't go. But still, in the end, Championships are Championships.

I still want there to be a way for teams that maybe don't quite make it all the way to get to experience the thrill, however. After all, it was only after going to Atlanta the first time that I really fell in love with FIRST. To deprive that from students just because their team may not be the best of the best would be detrimental to the program. Maybe have two divisions? Like, a field or set of fields for regional winners only (Chairman's winners can come play too ), and another for the other people? There is a downside in that the "others" wouldn't get to really experience the thrill of playing with some of the top teams. But it would allow them to go to Atlanta and give the top teams the matches they more deserve.

I don't know, like Justin I'm also just thinking out loud and my thoughts aren't 100% organized at all times.
__________________
Woodie Flowers asked for Super Nerds

We're giving him ÜberNerds
~Tweeeeter~

2010 Northeast Utilities Hartford Regional Champions
2010 WPI Regional Chairman's Award Winners
2008 Archimedes Division Champions
2008 Hartford Regional Champions
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-12-2010, 07:04 PM
NickE's Avatar
NickE NickE is offline
Registered User
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Moffett Field, CA
Posts: 583
NickE has a reputation beyond reputeNickE has a reputation beyond reputeNickE has a reputation beyond reputeNickE has a reputation beyond reputeNickE has a reputation beyond reputeNickE has a reputation beyond reputeNickE has a reputation beyond reputeNickE has a reputation beyond reputeNickE has a reputation beyond reputeNickE has a reputation beyond reputeNickE has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Smaller Nationals = Bigger Regionals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
The min size of CMP is equal to 7*Regionals (4 champions, 1 EI, 1 CA, 1 Rookie).
7*Regionals + 15 Hall of Fame Teams + 7 Sustaining Teams from 1992 + 3 Last Year's Champions + 1 Last Year's EI Award Winner

There's some overlap between the pre-qualified teams, but its a few more than 7*regionals.
__________________
Team 254 - The Cheesy Poofs
Student 2008-2011, Mentor 2012-Present
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-12-2010, 07:31 PM
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is offline
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 15,710
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to EricH
Re: Smaller Nationals = Bigger Regionals?

Andrew, it's 6* Regionals. The only case where there would be a 4th Champion would be the rare case where the Champion pulls in a backup team. That happens maybe once or twice per year, and can easily be covered by duplication elsewhere, or a Champion not being able to go (which happens more than you might think).

6* Regionals + 15 + 7 + 3 +1 - overlap +18 (the MI contingent)

For overlap, we'll assume none, other than 2 Legacy teams also being HOF. (I think that's the right number...)

Assuming that the number of regionals (not counting districts and not counting MSC as a regional) remains the same for next year, that's 42 pre-qualifiers/MI teams + 6*43 regionals = 300 slots, minimum, with only previously known overlap. Currently, the Championship is running about 340 teams.

Given that 1-2 new regionals are typically added per year, and the number of HOF teams goes up by one per year, (so the team count goes up by 13 per year), I give it 4 years before the minimum has to be the current size, or the qualification system gets tweaked again.

Second assumption: about 30-40 teams manage to get doubly qualified every year, either through multiple event wins or through EI/RAS/RCA combined with an event win. (Or through special circumstances.) That's another 30-40 slots available. 8 years before there's a tweak, maximum, assuming constant growth rate.

More small regionals means either bigger championship, or more districting systems popping up sending X teams apiece.

Fewer big regionals means smaller championship, or more open registration slots. However, a number of regionals are already crowded. So you almost have to add more... which adds to the more regional question.

Either way, I predict that inside of a decade, open registration for the Championship will be extremely limited unless there is some major change to the qualification system. I suspect that that change will be similar to MI's district system, when it comes.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots
2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics
2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

Read the rules and make a picklist before thinking about winning a competition.

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hey FIRST - We're going to need a lot more regionals! Raul Regional Competitions 41 11-08-2003 06:10 PM
Chamionship Qualification - feedback needed ASAP! dlavery General Forum 97 10-11-2003 07:17 AM
Making heads or tails of the new announcement... Jessica Boucher General Forum 66 09-26-2001 11:13 AM
VCU and KSC regionals Manoel Regional Competitions 0 09-25-2001 01:44 PM
The Future of Nationals Scott Wolfe General Forum 55 08-21-2001 12:48 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:56 AM.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi