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Unread 02-08-2011, 05:18 PM
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Team Update #9

Team Update #9 has been posted here.

-Nick
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Unread 02-08-2011, 05:34 PM
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Re: Team Update #9

No red card for tipping! I like it.
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Unread 02-08-2011, 05:40 PM
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Re: Team Update #9

It really sounds like the GDC is clarifying their intent for how LOGOMOTION matches are to be played...

From G48A:
"A ROBOT with a mechanism outside of its BUMPER PERIMETER may be penalized under this rule if it appears they are using that MECHANISM to purposefully contact another ROBOT inside its FRAME PERIMETER."

It sounds like the teams that have made mechanisms that extend out of the bumper perimeter to defend against other robots have had their designs ruled against! I'm sure it would've been valuable to know this intent earlier in the season... :-/

Somehow, I'm not too surprised, though... Over the last several years the GDC has carefully made the rules to limit defensive strategies - I was afraid these innovative ideas would be made illegal. Perhaps it is for the best... The combination of the ease with which defense could be played and the motion of the rack in 2007 made many matches generally low scoring.
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Last edited by Nathan Streeter : 02-08-2011 at 05:50 PM. Reason: G48, not R48
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Unread 02-08-2011, 05:44 PM
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Re: Team Update #9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Streeter View Post
From R48A:
"A ROBOT with a mechanism outside of its BUMPER PERIMETER may be penalized under this rule if it appears they are using that MECHANISM to purposefully contact another ROBOT inside its FRAME PERIMETER."

It sounds like the teams that have made mechanisms that extend out of the bumper perimeter to defend against other robots have had their designs ruled against! I'm sure it would've been valuable to know this intent earlier in the season... :-/
I think the key word here is inside. This rule seems to penalize mechanisms that reach inside of an opponent's frame perimeter, but doesn't prevent a team from using an extension to contact an opponent's bumpers, or other devices also beyond the frame perimeter. This would make, for example, using an extended arm to jab at a tower on another robot illegal, but I see nothing that would make, for example, this design illegal.
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Last edited by Joe G. : 02-08-2011 at 05:51 PM.
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Unread 02-08-2011, 05:49 PM
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Re: Team Update #9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe G. View Post
I think the key word here is inside. This rule seems to penalize mechanisms that reach inside of an opponent's frame perimeter, but doesn't prevent a team from using an extension to contact an opponent's bumpers, or other devices also beyond the frame perimeter.
Good call! Yeah, that definitely does seem to be the point... I'm glad I was wrong! :-) It sounds like they're talking about mechanisms (like arms) that are outside of the bumper perimeter that contact an opposing robot inside their frame perimeter (offending robot reaching into opposing robot's starting volume). Alright, makes sense, thanks! :-)

Sounds like a good update to me!
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Unread 02-08-2011, 09:10 PM
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Re: Team Update #9

Eeh, dislike this update. Even if it is accidental, anyone who reaches inside a robot and messes up their electronics should be heavily penalized, not just a penalty. Yellow at minimum.
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Unread 02-08-2011, 09:48 PM
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Re: Team Update #9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday View Post
Eeh, dislike this update. Even if it is accidental, anyone who reaches inside a robot and messes up their electronics should be heavily penalized, not just a penalty. Yellow at minimum.
Great defensive strategy in some cases...a team can possibly take out opposing alliances top scoring bot now with just a yellow even if obviously intentional (and no red?). Why would the GDC reduce a basic level of protection all robots should benefit from to protect hundreds of hours of hard labor and thousands of dollars worth of equipment? Certainly means at the very least teams need an extra robust level of lexan shrouds protecting their vitals, and a minimum level of exposed wiring on their mechanisms...or maybe we should design a titanium shroud now?
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Unread 02-08-2011, 09:51 PM
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Re: Team Update #9

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB987 View Post
Great defensive strategy in some cases...a team can possibly take out opposing alliances top scoring bot now with just a yellow even if obviously intentional (and no red?). Why would the GDC reduce a basic level of protection all robots should benefit from to protect hundreds of hours of hard labor and thousands of dollars worth of equipment? Certainly means at the very least teams need an extra robust level of lexan shrouds protecting their vitals, and a minimum level of exposed wiring on their mechanisms...or maybe we should design a titanium shroud now?

<T09> If the behavior is particularly egregious, a RED CARD may be issued without being
preceded by a YELLOW CARD, at the Head Referee’s discretion. The TEAM will still carry a
YELLOW CARD into subsequent matches.
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Unread 02-08-2011, 09:53 PM
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Re: Team Update #9

Better question: Why are you driving around with exposed electronics?
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Unread 02-08-2011, 10:00 PM
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Re: Team Update #9

Quote:
Originally Posted by pfreivald View Post
Better question: Why are you driving around with exposed electronics?
Believe me, we don't. But there are always teams that have some level of exposure and they may possibly pay dearly for it. I have seen robot mechanisms blow through various barriers, including lexan, that completely shrouded their components by the way during field action over the years.
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Unread 02-08-2011, 10:00 PM
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Re: Team Update #9

http://www.solostocks.com.mx/img/pol...l-387261z0.jpg

we have this covering every inch of our electronics, i hit it with a foot long 1 inch wrench as hard as i could and it held. btw, our entire electronics board is made of this, and a 27 by 27 by 5 box of this weighs .8 LBS. if you have exposed electronics i would highly recommend this.
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Unread 02-08-2011, 10:54 PM
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Re: Team Update #9

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB987 View Post
Great defensive strategy in some cases...a team can possibly take out opposing alliances top scoring bot now with just a yellow even if obviously intentional (and no red?).
That's not the case at all. First, a yellow card means the "strategy" would obviously only work once.

Secondly, <G48> still exists - you would earn two yellow cards in a single match. Does that become a red card?

Quote:
Why would the GDC reduce a basic level of protection all robots should benefit from to protect hundreds of hours of hard labor and thousands of dollars worth of equipment?
Because FIRST doesn't want to give out red cards to a team with an arm holding a tube that just brushes against another robot?

Quote:
Certainly means at the very least teams need an extra robust level of lexan shrouds protecting their vitals, and a minimum level of exposed wiring on their mechanisms...or maybe we should design a titanium shroud now?
Yellow cards are not trivial things! There is a BIG PENALTY for doing something. Why is that the end of the world now, just because they need to do it twice to get disqualified instead of once?
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Unread 02-08-2011, 11:26 PM
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Re: Team Update #9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
That's not the case at all. First, a yellow card means the "strategy" would obviously only work once.

(Once may be all that is needed if you take out a top scorer?)

Secondly, <G48> still exists - you would earn two yellow cards in a single match. Does that become a red card?

("Repeated or egregious violations of this rule will earn the offending ROBOT a YELLOW CARD."...doesn't say repeated violation earns a red card, it says repeateted violations receive a yellow card,Chris.)

"Violation: PENALTY and potential YELLOW CARD"



Because FIRST doesn't want to give out red cards to a team with an arm holding a tube that just brushes against another robot?

(From the blue box..."A ROBOT with a mechanism outside of its BUMPER PERIMETER may be penalized under
this rule if it appears they are using that MECHANISM to purposefully contact another
ROBOT inside its FRAME PERIMETER. Regardless of intent, a ROBOT with a
MECHANISM outside its BUMPER PERIMETER that causes damage to another ROBOT
inside of its FRAME PERIMETER will be penalized." So a penalty is to be assigned regardless of intent per this explanation, a yellow at most which a team may be willing to live with, especially for a high stakes qualifier late in the rounds.


Yellow cards are not trivial things! There is a BIG PENALTY for doing something. Why is that the end of the world now, just because they need to do it twice to get disqualified instead of once?
(Addressed above)

I am just discussing what could happen...Fortunately the vast majority of teams out there wouldn't consider intentional damage to another's robot.
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Unread 02-09-2011, 02:14 AM
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Re: Team Update #9

I recall an incident back in the 2004 elims where 494 got tangled up with 121 and ended up tearing out wiring out of 121. There was a rather ugly thread about the whole thing too over it.
While FIRST isn't Barttlebots things do get pretty hardcore out there sometimes and in spite of FIRST passing rules to prevent such incidents (kind of like what the NFL keeps doing) it will come up again.
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Unread 02-09-2011, 02:50 AM
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Re: Team Update #9

Call me old, but back in the day (2003 comes to mind) the game was a much more aggressive smash 'em crash 'em style. Robots had to be built tough to survive, and it was quite fun at times (at these for those who knew the meaning of robustness). Bumpers were optional back then, and most went without. Metal on metal contact. Anyhow, I think the new rules have allowed us to really thin out a lot of structure and do more complex tasks without fear of damage. So, I'd say mostly it's been a positive change.

I do agree though, teams should not be building fragile robots. You are not alone on the field. There are 5 other robots which will potentially knock into yours.
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