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Unread 05-24-2011, 10:13 PM
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Re: Why Winners Win?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamHeard View Post
254's alliance didn't seem to work very effectively as a team.

The 2009 game really required good teamwork. 254 was a devastatingly effective robot that year, easily better than each of the three on the other alliance. Clearly, the teamwork won though.
Amen to that. Teamwork wins, that's all there is to it. The only reason I participated in my only regional win thus far was the amazing team work between 1569, 488, and 1425 in the Seattle Regional in 2009. Each team had a specific role they did flawlessly, and that won us the tournament. It's the same thing here, 254 just couldn't work with their alliance nearly as effectively as the opposing alliance. Teamwork trumps individual robots when it comes to Championship matches it seems.
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Unread 05-25-2011, 12:44 AM
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Re: Why Winners Win?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamHeard View Post
254's alliance didn't seem to work very effectively as a team.

The 2009 game really required good teamwork. 254 was a devastatingly effective robot that year, easily better than each of the three on the other alliance. Clearly, the teamwork won though.
This was really the biggest thing. Although going back, we likely would not have built quite the same robot, excellent teamwork is the biggest reason why we lost to the other alliance which worked together quite well.

This year, we ended up on awesome alliances at both of our regionals and a dream alliance at the championship. The results showed.
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Unread 05-25-2011, 01:01 AM
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Re: Why Winners Win?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemiant View Post
Many years there appears to be a very large number of very competitive robots at the top, where any one of them could take championships. What makes some of them the best? I would love to see an analysis of each year individually.

For one specific case, in 2009 how did 254 get knocked out in Division Quarters?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk0RJ...layer_embedded
This robot, easily looks as good as any team on Einstein.

Or another example, this year 1114 was almost identical to 254.
I was a driver on the alliance that beat 254 in the quarters. The strategy was to pin 254 from the side, while 245 and 816 cleaned up the field. 254 had a long robot that year, if you pushed them from the side they were basically immobilized. Then 217's alliance used a similar strategy on our robot in semis, knocking us out.
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Last edited by HighLife : 05-25-2011 at 01:07 AM.
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Unread 05-25-2011, 07:51 AM
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Re: Why Winners Win?

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Originally Posted by HighLife View Post
I was a driver on the alliance that beat 254 in the quarters. The strategy was to pin 254 from the side, while 245 and 816 cleaned up the field. 254 had a long robot that year, if you pushed them from the side they were basically immobilized. Then 217's alliance used a similar strategy on our robot in semis, knocking us out.

Was pinning allowed that year? I applaud some very good strategy and execution.
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Unread 05-25-2011, 08:12 AM
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Re: Why Winners Win?

254's bot in 2009 was awesome, and it was incredibly dangerous if left alone.

That being said, it had one major 'flaw' - the same flaw that all long based robots had that year, which was the inability to spin out of certain pins. Going into the Championship, most teams with long based robots knew of this flaw and tried to avoid a 'RAWC Pin' if possible, because it was basically a guaranteed lose for the team that was pinned if the pin executed correctly.

We were also a bit of a wildcard on Curie that year, seemingly coming out of no where and going 5-1-1 and playing as the captain of the 6th seed thanks to some smart play, a decent schedule and a bit of luck. Going into the QF's against the Poofs and Buzz who were playing from the 3rd Seed, we knew we were out gunned if the Poofs were allowed to score. Because of this, 816 as the alliance captain, decided the best strategy would be to 'remove' 254 from the match, leaving the 3rd seed with 1 scoring robot and 1 defense robot effectively giving us a 10 to 15 ball advantage, if not more.

In Match 1 I wasn't able to get a good hold on the Poofs and our alliance played a bit sloppy. After a lot of yelling, jumping and high-fiving, we came back to win Matches 2 and 3 without too much trouble.

In retrospect, that sort of upset probably wouldn't have happened in any other game or if there had been pinning rules in 2009.

Here's a picture of us executing a RAWC Pin in one of the Curie QF's: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/33886
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Unread 05-25-2011, 09:43 AM
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Re: Why Winners Win?

With all that is being said here about how we beat 254 and 968, I just have to add what amazing machines 254 and 968 had that year. I do not think there was a more effective robot for the given game challenge in all of FIRST during 2009.

If you watch the teaser video of the 254 "Twins" filling a goal, your only reaction can be "Shock and Awe". 968 won 11 straight matches before we faced them in San Diego. It truly was the best machine in FIRST for 2009 with very skilled drivers.
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Unread 05-25-2011, 10:31 AM
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Re: Why Winners Win?

816 won the quarters because Dustin had a vial of pure win extract in his Fro, somewhere...

-Nick
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Unread 05-25-2011, 10:56 AM
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Re: Why Winners Win?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Lawrence View Post
816 won the quarters because Dustin had a vial of pure win extract in his Fro, somewhere...

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Unread 05-25-2011, 11:07 AM
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Al Skierkiewicz Al Skierkiewicz is offline
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Re: Why Winners Win?

In no particular order...
Well practiced drivers.
A robot that is designed to play the game from the beginning.
Luck.
A robot that doesn't break at a critical time or match.
Some more luck.
Partners that compliment your strengths and weaknesses.
A great strategy team taking good data on all teams.
Luck of the draw, i.e. either picking or getting picked by one of the teams high on your pick list.
A good coach who understands game strategy and doesn't get caught up in watching the match.
Luck that one of your picks is still around for the second draft.
Being able to switch from offense to defense as needed for a particular alliance.
Having one of the above infect an opponent at a critical time.
Luck!

Think about this year. Good scoring robots, good auto modes (one better than the other), fast minibots (one the fastest in the division), fast robots, good defensive moves, good data on our opponents for strategy, great operators and human players, and experienced coaches who worked together. Any of the top alliances on any division could have just as easily put some or most of these attributes together for success.
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Unread 05-25-2011, 11:33 AM
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Re: Why Winners Win?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
In no particular order...
Well practiced drivers.
A robot that is designed to play the game from the beginning.
Luck.
A robot that doesn't break at a critical time or match.
Some more luck.
Partners that compliment your strengths and weaknesses.
A great strategy team taking good data on all teams.
Luck of the draw, i.e. either picking or getting picked by one of the teams high on your pick list.
A good coach who understands game strategy and doesn't get caught up in watching the match.
Luck that one of your picks is still around for the second draft.
Being able to switch from offense to defense as needed for a particular alliance.
Having one of the above infect an opponent at a critical time.
Luck!

Think about this year. Good scoring robots, good auto modes (one better than the other), fast minibots (one the fastest in the division), fast robots, good defensive moves, good data on our opponents for strategy, great operators and human players, and experienced coaches who worked together. Any of the top alliances on any division could have just as easily put some or most of these attributes together for success.
That list right there is the reason why we won Lone Star in 2009. After we picked 704 and 1421, we spent our lunch time just discussing strategy and since we were the 5th seeded team, it gave us more time to talk about it when elims started. After the first match we were feeling pretty good about ourselves, then 118 brought us back down to Earth in the second match. That second match was really a turning point for our alliance and from there, we just clicked.

Basically I feel for a winning alliance, not only do you need good partners and teamwork, you also need some good chemistry. Chemistry helped us win in 2009 and I think all the winning alliances develop some form of chemistry to win every year.
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Unread 05-25-2011, 12:16 PM
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Re: Why Winners Win?

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Unread 05-25-2011, 01:01 PM
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Re: Why Winners Win?

Strategy. It's all about strategy. Have a plan for each match which makes the best use of alliance capabilities and takes advantage of your opponent’s weaknesses. Obviously having robots with more capability (and consistency) allows for more strategy options and less weaknesses for opponents to take advantage of.

I think a lot of teams with great robots also have great strategy. This causes people to think it’s the robot winning the matches, when really it’s the strategy. However, some teams have good robots with great strategies, and visa versa. This is when having the most capable robot doesn’t mean you are winning the match.

Understanding your capabilities is most important for your strategies. Be sure you have a good understanding of all 6 robots on the field and that you don’t over or under estimate their capabilities.

Don’t forget: “Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.”

Make sure you are prepared and you will start to feel lucky. The alliance that is the most prepared will take the win.

-Eric
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Unread 05-25-2011, 02:02 PM
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Re: Why Winners Win?

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Originally Posted by Eric O View Post
Strategy.
6 straight division wins makes that hard to argue with.
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Unread 05-25-2011, 03:43 PM
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Re: Why Winners Win?

This thread might as well be renamed Why Winners Win.
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Unread 05-25-2011, 08:32 PM
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Re: Why Winners Win?

I definitely agree with what seems to be the general consensus here, that teamwork, well, works. This point was definitely highlighted in 2009, as many of the elite teams in the world fell to a well thought out and well executed strategy. The 254 example has already been brought up, but another example of this was when 1507, 121, and 177 (the 5 seed) took down 1625, 234, and 768, the one seed, on our way to winning Newton. The only reason we were able to do that was a very, very well executed strategy carried out by all 3 robots, with a healthy dose of luck. 1625 and 234 were definitely, in my opinion, better robots than us, but we were able to squeak out a win by executing our strategy to perfection. (the no pinning rule helped a bit too).

In my opinion, the lesson learned here is that it is not necessarily the best robots that win, but the alliance that can work together flawlessly as a singly entity, with each robot playing their part by carrying out a well thought out strategy.
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