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Unread 06-23-2002, 09:18 PM
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5 points I make..(and a little excess)

Posted by colleen, Student on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro.

Posted on 3/29/99 8:11 PM MST




yet again, i post a message..

Regardless of whether you are pro or con for this tri-alliance deal, it seems like in the end, all this is doing nothing more but taking the actual competition out of it all.
1. no one wants to see the 'good' teams lose and the 'bad' ones come out on top, but the truth of the matter is, no one can be considered 'good' or 'bad' until they prove through the competition..
2. everyone wants to see 'fair' battles, no powerhouse alliances.. well, anyone ever hear of david vs. goliath.. everyone is defeatable, keep that in mind
3. everyone wants to see who they think are good win, and not have them upset by two teams who bring new meaning to teamwork and that 'hard-won victories are the sweetest of all.'... sometimes you may not think someone has what it takes.. but they've really got more than you do..
4. no one wants to let fate or luck have a play in the competition. breakdowns and mishaps are part of what makes FIRST challenging, learning to handle what comes.. that's part of building alliances this year, making it work no matter what, no replacing robots when you feel like it..
5. no one wants to lose, but like everything, someone has to and someone's going to, it's the inevitable factor of this little thing we call 'competition'.. just because you don't like who loses or wins doesn't mean the process isn't fair..

basically.. competition is what attracts people, but soon everyone will have this down to the point where no one loses.. no matter what, this is still a competition, with opposition, winners, losers, dogs, and cheaters.. it'll never be fair.. but it's only a game.. so they say.. 'it's only a game.'

my main reason for arguing against tri-alliances: we played in the UTC New England and can proudly say our well-researched alliance of us and team #19 bell atlantic/greenwich hs took home gold. however, it was not easy.. with mechanical and control failures by both our teams, we played 10 matches during the elimination rounds. we were the 5th rank, and during the first quarterfinal, or alliance had problems, and if we had that third alliance partner, we probably would have put them in right then, but we didn't.. two teams became won and with broken/malfunctioning robots in many of the matches, we made it through to the end, and relying only on each other we won.. if that third team had come in, there's a good chance we wouldn't have made it so far, just because we knew we had to make it with what we had; it wasn't easy but we met the challenge the competition placed before us, win it all with one partner, no swtiching, no trading- their problems are now yours and vice verus.. i am so glad we stuck with team #19 and wish them the best of luck at the nationals.. they are a good team, may they compete..

and may we all realize the competition, no matter how you change it, will never be fair in someone's eyes somewhere, because someone will always lose.. if everyone could go back home and say 'hey, we're national champions' of course they'd get more support, recognition, promotion.. but that's not the point, we all go into this winners, but few come out 'technically' winners.. but that's what attracts new kids, new teams.. in terms of sports..practice everyday after school doesn't attract players, the games do- the big plays, the districts, the front page photos is what gets them hooked.. or at least the chance at that pulls them in.. let's not let FIRST lose it's attracting qualities in the process

ok.. i've said enough (but please don't think i'll be quiet for long :-)


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Re: 5 points I make..(and a little excess)

Posted by Jerry Eckert, Engineer on team #140 from Tyngsboro, MA High School and New England Prototype/Brooks Automation.

Posted on 3/29/99 8:48 PM MST


In Reply to: 5 points I make..(and a little excess) posted by colleen on 3/29/99 8:11 PM MST:



:
: yet again, i post a message..

: Regardless of whether you are pro or con for this tri-alliance deal, it seems like in the end, all this is doing nothing more but taking the actual competition out of it all.

I disagree. There isn't much competition when a team has to compete with
one robot totally dead before the match even starts.

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Re: 5 points I make..(and a little excess)

Posted by Jeff Bazydlo, Other on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro Inc..

Posted on 3/30/99 6:51 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: 5 points I make..(and a little excess) posted by Jerry Eckert on 3/29/99 8:48 PM MST:



I think what Colleen was trying to say was that a robot breaking down before
a match is in the competition... What I think is that building a robot
to overcome a task, what is the task? The task is besides the floppies and
puck, it is competing against 1 or 2 other teams, being able to take your
licks and still run, compete, and come out on top. If your robot can not
take a lick or two or something breaks well it is fate trying to say 'not
this year' really...

I am not trying to make people angry, but we have had our problems in years
past and maybe that is why we try every year to protect from everything
that could possibly happen, but you can't! Luck eventually pulls the plug
sort of speak on your hopes and dreams. That is the competition in the real
es
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Re: 5 points I make..(and a little excess)

Posted by Jerry Eckert, Engineer on team #140 from Tyngsboro, MA High School and New England Prototype/Brooks Automation.

Posted on 3/30/99 7:02 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: 5 points I make..(and a little excess) posted by Jeff Bazydlo on 3/30/99 6:51 PM MST:



: I think what Colleen was trying to say was that a robot breaking down before
: a match is in the competition... What I think is that building a robot
: to overcome a task, what is the task? The task is besides the floppies and
: puck, it is competing against 1 or 2 other teams, being able to take your
: licks and still run, compete, and come out on top. If your robot can not
: take a lick or two or something breaks well it is fate trying to say 'not
: this year' really...

: I am not trying to make people angry, but we have had our problems in years
: past and maybe that is why we try every year to protect from everything
: that could possibly happen, but you can't! Luck eventually pulls the plug
: sort of speak on your hopes and dreams. That is the competition in the real
: es

Keep in mind that a big part of FIRST, especially once the competition
gets to the elimination rounds, is to put on a good show for the audience.

In most cases a 2-on-1 isn't much of a show...
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Re: 5 points I make..(and a little excess)

Posted by Peter VanWylen, Student on team #107, Team ROBOTICS, from Holland Christian High School and Metal Flow Corp..

Posted on 4/6/99 12:49 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: 5 points I make..(and a little excess) posted by Jeff Bazydlo on 3/30/99 6:51 PM MST:



: If your robot can not take a lick or two or something breaks well it is fate trying to say 'not this year' really...

I tend to think that the age old saying still applies:
'May the best man win'
NOT the one who has fate on his side

: Luck eventually pulls the plug sort of speak on your hopes and dreams.

I guess now it should be 'May the luckiest win'
Personally, I like the former version better.

-Peter


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Re: 5 points I make..(and a little excess)

Posted by Jeff Bazydlo, Other on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro Inc..

Posted on 3/30/99 6:51 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: 5 points I make..(and a little excess) posted by Jerry Eckert on 3/29/99 8:48 PM MST:



I think what Colleen was trying to say was that a robot breaking down before
a match is in the competition... What I think is that building a robot
to overcome a task, what is the task? The task is besides the floppies and
puck, it is competing against 1 or 2 other teams, being able to take your
licks and still run, compete, and come out on top. If your robot can not
take a lick or two or something breaks well it is fate trying to say 'not
this year' really...

I am not trying to make people angry, but we have had our problems in years
past and maybe that is why we try every year to protect from everything
that could possibly happen, but you can't! Luck eventually pulls the plug
sort of speak on your hopes and dreams. That is the competition in the real
essence, everyone can't win, some will be out matched, others will break
down, but somebody has to or we would never have a 'champion'!

That is all! Your take on the subject is looked forward to!!!

Jeff Bazydlo
Team #126
Gael Force



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Re: 5 points I make..(and a little excess)

Posted by Andy Grady, Coach on team #42, P.A.R.T.S, from Alvirne High School and Daniel Webster College.

Posted on 3/30/99 10:20 AM MST


In Reply to: 5 points I make..(and a little excess) posted by colleen on 3/29/99 8:11 PM MST:



I would have to disagree with Colleen about third alliance taking away from the competition. With 200+ teams a hardly think that is possible. Even though I am not a great fan of the 3 team alliance rule, i think that it gives a chance for cinderellas, or mabey teams that have good robots, but just don't get noticed easily. Don't get me wrong, i still think that 16 teams choosing 1 alliance partner and having a split single to double elimination tornement would be better.(help me on this one people if ya think it would work) It just seems that right now for Florida, anything to get more teams involved in those elimination matches would be good.
Good Luck to all,
Andy Grady, DWC/Alvirne HS


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Re: 5 points I make..(and a little excess)

Posted by Jerry Eckert, Engineer on team #140 from Tyngsboro, MA High School and New England Prototype/Brooks Automation.

Posted on 3/30/99 10:31 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: 5 points I make..(and a little excess) posted by Andy Grady on 3/30/99 10:20 AM MST:



: Don't get me wrong, i
: still think that 16 teams choosing 1 alliance partner and having a
: split single to double elimination tornement would be better.

I don't think the three team alliances and the 16 alliance elimination
format have anything to do with each other. My understanding is that
the three team alliances were created to reduce the amount of time spent
on timeouts during the elimination rounds and to provide for a substitution
if a robot is damaged in a previous match. The fact that more teams are
participating is a side effect.

Also, from what people have been saying in this forum it seems likely
that there will be a 16 alliance elimination in Florida - with ot without
the three team alliances.

- Jerry

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