OCCRA
Go to Post Data is never ugly. It is only how you use it that can be. - Ed Law [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Events   CD-Media   CD-Spy   FRC-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-12-2013, 05:03 PM
MagiChau's Avatar
MagiChau MagiChau is offline
Registered User
AKA: Michael Chau
FRC #0085 (B.O.B. (Built on Brains))
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Zeeland, Michigan
Posts: 866
MagiChau is just really niceMagiChau is just really niceMagiChau is just really niceMagiChau is just really nice
Something New Ė Chairmanís Award Eligibility

Quote:
Chairmanís Award is the one FRC team award for which teams must select a single event at which to compete. This leads to some potentially negative consequences. It reduces the pool of competing teams at a given Regional or District, if some teams are present that decided to submit for Chairmanís Award at another event. It also strongly encourages teams to Ďevent shopí, as they are forced to put all their eggs in one basket with regard to this award, and they naturally Ė if they have the resources and inclination to travel Ė may give some consideration to attending events at which they believe they have the best chance of winning this most prestigious of all FRC awards. In addition, a one-shot-only approach does not allow teams to iterate and improve upon their Chairmanís Award presentations if they are not selected as winners their first time at bat. This is in contrast to the iteration they can do on their robot from event to event, whether they win on the field or not.

So, for the 2014 season, teams will be eligible to win Chairmanís Award at every event they attend at their initial level of competition Ė District or Regional - until they win. In other words, teamís donít have to select a specific event at which to compete, though they can only win once at the District or Regional level. This change does not affect competition at higher levels. Only teams selected at the District or Regional levels will be allowed to compete for Chairmanís Award at higher levels of competition, as usual.

This change does not fully eliminate the potentially negative consequences I list above of the current system. For example, while teams may not be putting all their eggs in one basket with this change, there still is some incentive to travel to an event if a team believes they have a stronger chance of winning Chairmanís Award there. I think this change will reduce the incentive in some situations, but the incentive doesnít go away.

This change also introduces other challenges. From a team standpoint, at many events, it will increase the competition for Chairmanís Award. As this is our most prestigious award, I think thatís OK. Earning Chairmanís Award should be a very competitive process. Also, this does give teams with the resources to attend multiple events an opportunity they didnít have before.* On this point, Iíll say my working assumption is that the great majority of FRC teams - whether they have the resources to attend one, two, three, or more events Ė work extremely hard to be able to attend the events they do, and as a rule of thumb should have an opportunity to compete for all awards available at every event they attend. There are some exceptions to this guideline, and youíll note that we did put a governor on this award. Trying to avoid the potentially demotivating effect on other teams of powerhouse teams traveling from event to event picking up the top FRC award at each, teams can only win once at the Regional or District level. One additional challenge falls to the judges at events, as they will be doing more interviews, and have more difficulty sorting through candidates, with this change. However, working with the FRC Chief Judge advisors, we think the benefits outweigh the costs.

I believe this change will generate some buzz. Iím looking forward to reading those comments.



Iíll blog again soon.

Frank

*In the 2013 season, about 38% of FRC teams participated in more than one event, excluding the FIRST Championship. With the addition of two new Districts in 2014, and assuming the percentage of non-District teams attending multiple events holds steady, that percentage should increase to somewhere in the 48% range. The expansion of the District model is putting us on the path of multi-event teams being the norm, rather than the exception.
This is a very interesting step taken by FIRST.
__________________
2014 FRC Season Hyped
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-12-2013, 05:05 PM
Michael Hill's Avatar
Michael Hill Michael Hill is offline
Registered User
FRC #3138 (Innovators Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 1,026
Michael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Hill has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Something New Ė Chairmanís Award Eligibility

I really really like this change.
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-12-2013, 05:07 PM
jessss's Avatar
jessss jessss is offline
Registered User
AKA: Jessica
FRC #3182 (Athena's Warriors)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 59
jessss is just really nicejessss is just really nicejessss is just really nicejessss is just really nice
Talking Re: Something New Ė Chairmanís Award Eligibility

I'm really excited for this change!
__________________
Mentor: Team 3182 Athena's Warriors
West Hartford Public Schools, Connecticut.
Student: Team 2705 WE ROBOT 2010-2013
The International School of Minnesota, Eden Prairie, Minnesota.
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-12-2013, 05:13 PM
Jonathan Norris Jonathan Norris is offline
Jno
FRC #0610 (Crescent Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Toronto ON
Posts: 1,051
Jonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond reputeJonathan Norris has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Jonathan Norris
Re: Something New Ė Chairmanís Award Eligibility

This is a great change, the Chairman's presentation team's I've seen all work extremely hard on their presentations, there is no reason that their work shouldn't also be an iterative process throughout the competition season.
__________________
2013 World Champions (1241, 1477, 610)
Co-Founder of Taplytics.com
Crescent Robotics Team 610 Mentor
K-Botics Team 2809 Founding Mentor ('09-'11)
Queen's University Mechanical Engineering, Applied Science '11

Crescent Robotics Team 610 Alumni
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-12-2013, 05:15 PM
Nemo's Avatar
Nemo Nemo is online now
Team 967 Mentor
AKA: Dan Niemitalo
FRC #0967 (Iron Lions)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 689
Nemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Something New Ė Chairmanís Award Eligibility

This was the right move.
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-12-2013, 05:19 PM
Steven Donow's Avatar
Steven Donow Steven Donow is offline
Registered User
AKA: Scooby
FRC #0125 (NUTRONs)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Boston, MA/Ringwood, NJ
Posts: 1,242
Steven Donow has a reputation beyond reputeSteven Donow has a reputation beyond reputeSteven Donow has a reputation beyond reputeSteven Donow has a reputation beyond reputeSteven Donow has a reputation beyond reputeSteven Donow has a reputation beyond reputeSteven Donow has a reputation beyond reputeSteven Donow has a reputation beyond reputeSteven Donow has a reputation beyond reputeSteven Donow has a reputation beyond reputeSteven Donow has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Steven Donow
Re: Something New Ė Chairmanís Award Eligibility

This is a great idea, and definitely a logical thing to do.
__________________
FRC 223 [2009-2013]: Xtreme Heat - Student; a myriad of positions.
2012 MAR Championship Dean's List Finalist

FRC 125 [2013-Present]: NUTRONs - Mentor/College Student
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-12-2013, 05:31 PM
Chris is me's Avatar
Chris is me Chris is me is offline
Work harder, do better.
AKA: Pinecone
FRC #2791 (Shaker Robotics) (EWCP)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Troy, NY
Posts: 6,587
Chris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Chris is me
Re: Something New Ė Chairmanís Award Eligibility

Wow, this actually makes quite a lot of sense. So many issues are eliminated this way - teams not submitting to avoid losing to a perennial powerhouse, teams avoiding certain regionals that seem to give preference to local teams, etc. This way, if you're good enough to win, and you go to multiple events, you've got a great shot of winning. Best of all, you can actually incorporate the advice given by Chairman's judges into future presentations rather than waiting an entire year to act on suggestions. This should make the Championship Chairman's pool deeper and stronger all around as well.
__________________
Proud 2791 Mentor (2010-201?):
2014 FLR Motorola Quality / Semifinalists (with 341, 4930)
2013 WPI Regional #1 Seed / Delphi Excellence in Engineering / Finalists (with 20, 3182), BAE Motorola Quality
2012 BAE Imagery / Finalists (with 1519, 885), CT Xerox Creativity / Semifinalists (with 2168, 118)

Proud 1714 Alumnus (2009) - 2009 Minnesota 10,000 Lakes Regional Champions (with 2826, 2470)
2791 Build Season Photo Gallery - Look here for mechanism photos
My Robotics Blog (Updated April 11 2014)
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-12-2013, 05:39 PM
Littleswimmer14's Avatar
Littleswimmer14 Littleswimmer14 is offline
Lady Logistics
AKA: Renee
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2006
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 218
Littleswimmer14 has a reputation beyond reputeLittleswimmer14 has a reputation beyond reputeLittleswimmer14 has a reputation beyond reputeLittleswimmer14 has a reputation beyond reputeLittleswimmer14 has a reputation beyond reputeLittleswimmer14 has a reputation beyond reputeLittleswimmer14 has a reputation beyond reputeLittleswimmer14 has a reputation beyond reputeLittleswimmer14 has a reputation beyond reputeLittleswimmer14 has a reputation beyond reputeLittleswimmer14 has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Littleswimmer14
Re: Something New Ė Chairmanís Award Eligibility

This is an excellent update, it will help increase quality competition at regional events and decrease feelings that teams "picked the wrong regional to submit at that year". It looks like HQ put a lot of thought into this as they also recognized that they will need to increase the number of judges at regional events.
__________________
Follow @Robot_Chat on Twitter
Sunday 7 EST/6 CST #BotChat
Twitter: @LadyLogistics

Mentor FRC 4690, 4545, 1529 ~ FRC 1675 Alumni
Co-Founder of Assisting Creative Energy - www.assistingcreativeenergy.com
Founder of the MN Alumni Organization, GO FIRST - Est. 2009
2011-2014 NEMO/Roundtable Meeting Facilitator- WI, IL, MN, IN
2012- 2013 FSM- MN & FRC 3184 Mentor
2013 - 2014 FIRST Vista - IN

Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-12-2013, 05:44 PM
Nate Laverdure's Avatar
Nate Laverdure Nate Laverdure is offline
Registered User
FRC #2363
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Newport News, VA
Posts: 627
Nate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond reputeNate Laverdure has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Something New Ė Chairmanís Award Eligibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
Best of all, you can actually incorporate the advice given by Chairman's judges into future presentations rather than waiting an entire year to act on suggestions.
It will also motivate teams to ask for clear, helpful, and insightful feedback from their judges. The judges will have to step up their game to match the higher expectations.

Great change. Good job FIRST.
__________________
  1. Whatever the second post in a thread is about, that's what the thread is about.
  2. If a test was successful, you've probably already seen the results. If a test was unsuccessful, you'll probably never see the results.
Cryogenics mechanical engineer, Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility (JLab)
Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-12-2013, 05:50 PM
Allison K's Avatar
Allison K Allison K is offline
Registered User
AKA: Allison Kneisler
FRC #3538 (Avondale RoboJackets)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Troy, MI
Posts: 519
Allison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond reputeAllison K has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Allison K
Re: Something New Ė Chairmanís Award Eligibility

Overall I'm very pleased with the change. My one question is as stated the change is "every event." Does this include third districts?
__________________
FRC226: 2003-2013
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-12-2013, 06:01 PM
LeelandS's Avatar
LeelandS LeelandS is offline
Robots don't quit, and neither do I
AKA: Leeland
FRC #1405 (Finney Falcons)
Team Role: Tactician
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Webster, NY
Posts: 518
LeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Something New Ė Chairmanís Award Eligibility

This is going to lead to some serious friction during Week 6 events.

Teams trying to improve their Chairman's presentations and win the award (Either to be eligible for the Championship Chairman's Award, or just to qualify for worlds to begin with) will be very tense to win.

I can see this creating a great deal of disappointment for teams who bid for the award again in a late event, but fall short.

I'm on the fence with this. I like it since it means that teams won't have to decide what event they want to submit for, and that they can use the Judge's Evaluations they receive from their regional to improve. Not only does this help teams improve their presentations for the award, but it will be a valuable experience in learning about business presentations and speaking skills.

On the other hand, I don't like Chairman's Award being seen as an award that you can keep trying over and over for until you get it. I think that kind of devalues the award in the long run. When it's "One shot to win it all", I think teams appreciate the award overall much more. But now that we might be playing a game where teams pick events to allow them improve the most and better their chances of winning, I think this will make the award a little less prestigious. I don't think I really like the change.

Just a thought. Let's see how this goes first.
__________________
My heart will forever lie with SparX
1126: 2008 - 2011; Where it All Began.
1405: 2013 - Present; A Wanderer is Born.

I want to change everything. I want to revolutionize FIRST. If only, one team, and one day, at a time.

Last edited by LeelandS : 09-12-2013 at 06:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-12-2013, 06:12 PM
BrendanB BrendanB is offline
4 Banners, 6 medals, 1 insane year!
AKA: Brendan Browne, Sensei, Mentuar
FRC #3467 (Windham Windup Robotics) 1519 (Alumni)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Londonderry/Windham NH
Posts: 2,697
BrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to BrendanB
Re: Something New Ė Chairmanís Award Eligibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeelandS View Post
This is going to lead to some serious friction during Week 6 events.

Teams trying to improve their Chairman's presentations and win the award (Either to be eligible for the Championship Chairman's Award, or just to qualify for worlds to begin with) will be very tense to win.

I can see this creating a great deal of disappointment for teams who bid for the award again in a late event, but fall short.

I'm on the fence with this. I like it since it means that teams won't have to decide what event they want to submit for, and that they can use the Judge's Evaluations they receive from their regional to improve. Not only does this help teams improve their presentations for the award, but it will be a valuable experience in learning about business presentations and speaking skills.

On the other hand, I don't like Chairman's Award being seen as an award that you can keep trying over and over for until you get it. I think that kind of devalues the award in the long run. When it's "One shot to win it all", I think teams appreciate the award overall much more. But now that we might be playing a game where teams pick events to allow them improve the most and better their chances of winning, I think this will make the award a little less prestigious. I don't think I really like the change.

Just a thought. Let's see how this goes first.
I think its more disappointing when your chairmans team works long and tirelessly year round only to have one shot and that's it. They and the team put a lot of time and effort into having only one chance. \

Its a good move by FIRST!
__________________
[2003-2007]: FLL student
[2008-2010]: FRC 1519 student
[2011-current]: FRC 3467 mentor

2013 Pine Tree Regional Champions with 2648 and 2386 + Engineering Excellence Award
2013 Archimedes Judges Award
2014 UNH District Champions with 58 & 4555 + Chairmans Award
2014 Northeastern District Champions with 125 & 5000 + Engineering Inspiration Award
2014 New England District Championship Engineering Inspiration Award
2014 Archimedes Division Champions with 2590, 1625, & 1477
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-12-2013, 06:13 PM
DonRotolo's Avatar
DonRotolo DonRotolo is offline
Feeling Honorable
FRC #1676 (Pascack PI Oneers)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Montvale NJ
Posts: 6,507
DonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Something New Ė Chairmanís Award Eligibility

Generally I see more positives than negatives, so it's a good change.
__________________

I am N2IRZ - What's your callsign?
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-12-2013, 06:33 PM
Tristan Lall's Avatar
Tristan Lall Tristan Lall is offline
Registered User
FRC #0188 (Woburn Robotics)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 2,437
Tristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Something New Ė Chairmanís Award Eligibility

I'm alright with it.

The dynamics change a little bitóparticularly with regard to choice of events, because there's now a bigger schedule-based component to the likelihood that a particular team will win the award at a particular regional.

Also, it's not clear whether a team can officially declare itself out of contention for a particular event, despite having a valid submission. (Telling the judges "take us out of contention" would probably suffice unofficially.) For example, a team might want to maintain a streak of several awards in a row at an event where they're expected to dominate, but the only workable schedule forces them to attend a preceding regional. (I don't think this is a particularly good idea, but I could see a team wanting to do it anyway.)

There's also the issue of judges estimating a team's probability to win at an upcoming event, and factoring that into their deliberationsóthe team that has the least chance of winning elsewhere might get a slight boost. (If this is objectionable, FIRST could simply state that this isn't a permissible judging criterion. Alternatively, maybe this is an equitable thing to do, despite the fact that it dilutes the idea that the award is won and lost based on the presentations at each event.)
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-12-2013, 06:34 PM
Jon Jack's Avatar
Jon Jack Jon Jack is offline
Registered User
AKA: Mentor / Coach
FRC #1538 (The Holy Cows)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 608
Jon Jack has a reputation beyond reputeJon Jack has a reputation beyond reputeJon Jack has a reputation beyond reputeJon Jack has a reputation beyond reputeJon Jack has a reputation beyond reputeJon Jack has a reputation beyond reputeJon Jack has a reputation beyond reputeJon Jack has a reputation beyond reputeJon Jack has a reputation beyond reputeJon Jack has a reputation beyond reputeJon Jack has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Jon Jack
Re: Something New Ė Chairmanís Award Eligibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeelandS View Post
I think that kind of devalues the award in the long run.
I think it does the exact opposite, actually. This actually helps advance the best Chairman's teams to the championship. In the past if you applied (and lost) at a "strong Chairman's regional" then you were done. At your second regional you could have probably beat any of the Chairman's Award competitors, but you couldn't apply at a second regional. Under the new system you now have a chance of winning the Chairman's Award at that second event.

In the end, I think you'll see an even stronger pool of teams competing for the Chairman's Award at the Championship.

The other thing to think about is that district events are scaled down regionals. If 12 teams (20%) at a 60 team event is competing for the Chairman's Award, then that means a 40 team district event would have 8. Now, things aren't distributed evenly so some events could have more some could have less. Under the new system you'll see that number jump. What's better for the prestige of the Chairman's Award? Winning out of a pool of 3 teams or winning out of a pool of 10 teams?
__________________
Team 1538 / The Holy Cows - 2013 FIRST Hall of Fame
2013 World Championship - Chairman's Award, Newton Division #1 Seed (8-0-0) & Finalists w/ 1986 & 217
2013 Inland Empire Regional - Champions w/ 2485 & 968
2013 San Diego Regional - Chairman's Award
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:16 PM.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi