How should we react to posts? [Archive]

IndySam

12-02-2012, 18:08

Here is a post by a student who doesn't understand the purpose of FIRST. As a community how should we react to this post?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102609

I understand the immediate reaction is to go on the attack and slam him but what purpose does that serve? Sure maybe he deserves it but wouldn't it be better to just have a mod delete the thread and send the offender a note explaining why his actions are inappropriate and maybe help him learn something?

Who knows, with a little coaching maybe he could become a valuable member of the community. Lets face it, there's almost zero chance of that happening now.

I must say Cory that your comments when closing the thread are absolutely inappropriate. You are basically saying OK boys lets get this guy. I think you deserve as many red dots for that comment as the OP.

wireties

12-02-2012, 18:16

It sounds like the student had a poor experience somewhere along the line. I also advocate contacting him and giving a chance to post a "sorry, I didn't understand" message and delete the entire thread.

Andrew Lawrence

12-02-2012, 18:17

I agree with this. I happened to read the post, and while a little uncalled for, it was obviously of good intentions. The OP brought up a valid issue that anyone in FIRST has thought of at least once. However, he/she brought Buzz into it, and that's where people began to bash him/her. I haven't watched the video so I can't say how many mentors were shown, however as we all know mentors are a huge part of FIRST. What the mentors do may have been misunderstood by the OP.

Personally, I think the OP was a good person who brought up a valid issue, but just worded it wrong. The people at CD are supposed to help others, not bash them so hard they not come back and receive the experience we have because of a silly first-time mistake. I understand the OP's side, being once new and still very uneducated in some areas. Is it not our job on CD and FIRST to educate those who need it?

KevinGoneNuts

12-02-2012, 18:27

I agree with all of this but the one thing that EVERYONE on chiefdelphi needs to remember is something we hear so constantly. Gracious Professionalism.

I understand where the OP is coming from, but he could have handled it in a more gracious and professional way. We all should remember that what we say on CD reflects not just us, but also our teams. And yes Andrew, everyone needs a second chance. I mean I feel bad for the OP look at how many red bars he has...I have been in his boat before and it is a huge a learning experience...

MrForbes

12-02-2012, 18:32

Yup, should have been handled differently....and yeah, it's that time of build season when a lot of us are pretty wound up! so it's hard to put things in perspective.

BrendanB

12-02-2012, 18:33

I'm not happy by the OP's position but again that is his position and he is entitled to it and I respect it. Even though some of us don't agree with that viewpoint about mentors on a team a majority of teams do. I do understand where he comes from, I have seen several teams who appear to be all the mentors work but that is just me staring at a house saying it is ugly without going inside.

I'm also not happy with the reaction by CDers and the reaction to reactions. If you have things to say we have PM for that. Don't air it out here folks! :mad:

Tristan Lall

12-02-2012, 18:36

I'd avoid deleting the thread unless the original poster really wants it deleted, and the ChiefDelphi community seems to agree. There's no defamation there, especially not after the link was redacted.

I definitely think the person deserves the opportunity to respond (civilly and thoughtfully) to those who criticized them. A locked thread doesn't serve that purpose very well, so I suggest they post here instead. (If they want nothing more than to throw insults, they'll just get banned.)

Cory

12-02-2012, 18:49

If you want to be a jerk on the internet I don't think you should be shielded from the consequences of acting like a jerk. I see nothing wrong with what I posted and stand by it. My intent was not to ostracize the kid or leave it there so people can 'blacklist' the kid or team. I simply think that in the real world if you say something you don't get to take it back.

I'll abide by that myself. If some think my posts are inappropriate and rude, that's fine. They were my words and I won't hide from them.

Chris is me

12-02-2012, 19:07

This is not an easy question. My opinion on this has changed as much as I have while posting on CD... And my opinion is just that. I know nothing about the moderation policy of Chief Delphi. Treat this post as a perspective from an individual, nothing more.

I believe the appropriate response in terms of community moderation to that thread would be a deletion and a temporary ban. In the particular incident we are now having a public meta discussion about, the reputation of the team is at stake. The poster's identity is not persistent outside of Chief Delphi, but the team number is persistent, potentially long after the student leaves. People create permanent negative associations easily. A deletion and temporary ban allows the poster to "cool off" long enough to at least try and understand what happened.

I bet at least one person has now put that team on some kind of blacklist. And that's not fair to everyone else who ever put any effort on that team, even if the student was claiming to speak for them all. I know some teams have all out policies against posting on Chief Delphi to protect their particular brand. Others do not go so far, but (correctly?) reinforce a strong culture of "act as if you're always being watched" which serves them very, very well! It's a healthy lesson to learn in professionalism. I generally see the teams that take such preventative action as teams that have their act together enough that they don't "need" the help and support of places like CD as much as other teams, though.

If the user's post was deleted, the permanence would be less daunting. If the user was temporarily banned, with clear reasoning and an opportunity for a private discussion with their team leadership, if any, before posting again - that would help prevent the permanent damage to the team's reputation that posts like that would cause.

Now with damage control and moderation out of the way... I think the intent of this thread was to discuss how to react to people that basically don't "get it" - "it" being the general values of tolerance and respect for team structures different than one's own. That's... quite difficult. I'll get back to you guys on that one.

CidTeach

12-02-2012, 19:08

I'm with Cory,
i tell my students to "man-up" all the time. All that means is stand up the the consequences regardless of how severe. If you are upset about something, talk it out and come to a resolution - after all, that is what we are here to do. Help young ones grow into solution finding useful people. If you do not know how to act, personally and professionally you will learn by fire.

No one forgets the first time they bust up their finger in the shop, I'm sure this similar analogy applies.

MrBasse

12-02-2012, 19:25

I don't know if it is fair to call him a jerk right away... I think what we have here is a something that we have all been, a kid. He saw what he views as a problem, which I think we can all agree can be a problem to different degrees with some teams, and his method for recognizing it was good until he went the extra step and crossed a line, or two, well maybe three.

I also don't think that it is fair for us to say that he doesn't understand FIRST either. Personally I feel that a kid will be more inspired (the true goal of FIRST) by learning how to make something and then actually making it, rather than just learning the process by watching someone else make it or by sending it off to a shop to be made. Does that mean that sending something out to be laser cut is a bad practice? Of course not, it happens in industry all the time. But does sending it out directly involve the students in the process from start to finish? More often than not I doubt it.

I am not saying I agree with his method, or his idea completely, but I can see where he is coming from and I feel that it is a legit concern that should be addressed in a friendly and compassionate way. Maybe by reminding him that the issue could be handled differently and seeing how he responds to the idea, rather than immediately saying that he is reported for doing something wrong.

We still have to remember that everyone makes mistakes, sometimes the results are just more visible and affect more than just the individuals involved...

Andrew Lawrence

12-02-2012, 19:29

We still have to remember that everyone makes mistakes, sometimes the results are just more visible and affect more than just the individuals involved...

Well said Mr. Basse. Everyone makes mistakes, in fact everyone still makes mistakes, although they occur less frequently with experience, something us who are somewhat new to FRC can lack sometimes. If it were a 30 year old mentor, then the results/reactions would have been very different. But this is a kid, probably around 16 years old. If a students gets something wrong in class, the more experienced and educated teachers teach them how to do it right.

wireties

12-02-2012, 19:34

No one forgets the first time they bust up their finger in the shop, I'm sure this similar analogy applies.

If a student busts a finger after being given safety instructions, I totally agree. If this is strike 2 for this student, I also agree. Was that the case here? Did the student have any idea what FIRST is about? Hard to know I reckon...

I suppose the older (and hopefully wiser) one gets the more tolerant - right up to the point where one is being ignored or taken advantage of - then the hammer must come down, maybe literally ;o)

GW Kalrod

12-02-2012, 19:37

If you want to be a jerk on the internet I don't think you should be shielded from the consequences of acting like a jerk. I see nothing wrong with what I posted and stand by it.

Wait, you locked a thread because you found it in poor taste, yet you leave it visible so he has to face the "consequences"?

Slow down for a second. The original thread involved a student posting about how he does not agree with the philosophy that many teams/mentors/students hold that mentors should work equally with students, or perhaps even do most of the technical work. That in itself, I think you'd agree, is not worthy of a lock because it is a very valid point of contention within the FIRST community.

I think the quote that got everyone's attention was the following:
"If you think you are some cool old guys because you own a bunch of high school kids, get a grip and go start your own robotics organization."

Many mentors would take offense from that statement, and rightly so because it stereotypes all mentors in a negative way. However, that doesn't change the fact that there are a few teams (which we are all aware of) where the mentors may be accurately described by this statement. While this is a minority, that part of the student's point, while poorly delivered, stands as an open issue in our community.

To be clear, I have absolutely no problem with how other teams run, it's up to each team to decide what works best for them. I'm just not sure how I feel about the overall response to the original thread.

Cory

12-02-2012, 19:43

Tetraman

12-02-2012, 19:48

I'm in agreement with IndySam's suggestion, of deleting the thread entirely, PMing the poster with the reason it was taken down, and give the poster a second chance to state his or her opinion on CD in a more appropriate matter.

The community that doesn't have Mod status should do one of two things: Respond to the posters question (if there is one) or ignore it. "By giving attention to it, we've managed to make the situation bigger than it was." Why do we always have to defend our hive like bees and then turn into the bullies? Just ignore the thread. Or, if you can find a question or issue posed by the original poster, answer it. The topic the poster proposed in the end, is a valid one. If you have an answer for it, answer it, or if you want to debunk the question, debunk it. But we should not just simply sit there in the thread and act like fools mocking the poster and his post.

It then is the job of the Mod and forum supervisors to act on the thread in a way that corresponds with the rules of the Chief Delphi community. In this case, immediate deletion of the thread and notification to the poster should have been the proper course of action.

In this case, I feel that the actions taken in this situation is akin to bullying another poster simply for a lack of judgement. The poster had less than 10 posts; don't expect someone to just easily mold into the community at large instantaneously. It should not be up to the moderation staff to openly mock someone for their posts, nor accuse them of being a "jerk" openly.

Also, negative rep is never an appropriate response to ANY situation.

Chris86

12-02-2012, 19:52

No offense to anybody here, but thinking that giving the kid a chance to apologize is being fair to the post does not resolve the issue. I did not see the original post, but the student at least showed some courtesy by removing the team's name and trying to address it as an issue instead of calling people out.

If I'm that student, I still don't think I did anything wrong because the "consequences of my actions" is currently several mentors (that I think do everything for their team as it is anyways) discussing how best to deal with me.

As for the actual issue - I have been involved (as a student or as a mentor) with three different teams that have radically different views on roles of students, parents, and mentors. It really is a culture-shock seeing how different teams can be set up.

A team in which the student's do all of the work often has the students wondering how it could possibly be better for the mentor's to be as involved as they are in other teams, but when they post about it (whether it be in a rather insulting post as it was in this case or in one of the other discussion posts), its always called jealousy, arrogance, or just plain ignored by the mentors having their adult-discussion on what they do for their teams on the forums.

Teams have a wide variety of how involved mentors are and there is no one "best" way to do it. However, some teams treat their students as adults and give them the responsibility of an adult. So on CD, especially if we are going to force students to "face the consequences of their actions" like an adult, the least we can do is respect students' opinions the way we would an adult's.

EricH

12-02-2012, 19:53

It wasn't that the thread discussed a sensitive issue, to me. It was that it was an attack post, in tone as written, though I don't know if it was intended that way. This sort of post has the severe potential for a flame war. It wasn't just that one sentence, it was almost the entire post, and the followup posts.

To be honest, part of the best way to respond to posts like that can be found in the one post I made to the thread, of the three I started. When I see a post like the initial one, I get really mad. I've found that it works better if I wait a bit, to cool off/organize my thoughts, and present a cohesive, non-attacking post.

This particular issue is by no means dead. However, it is also by no means an easy one to bring up without causing a flame war. As such, we as a general group, prefer to quell the flame wars and refer people to the prior, closed threads on the topic.

SousVide

12-02-2012, 20:15

As many have said, this has been hashed and rehashed over again. The debate won't die, except the results... that is when students see a wicked awesome robot built by mentors - it doth not inspire nor encourage.

There are Mentoring guidelines. I like section 8 a lot:

http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Community/FRC/Team_Resources/Mentoring%20Guide.pdf

I Do, You Watch
I Do, You Help
You Do, I Help
You Do, I Watch

I come from a world of FLL, which is still FIRST. In FLL, students do *all* of the work - emphasis mine. Mentors and Coaches encourage and provide the process; keep everything including sanity in check. In FRC, we encourage the engineering process, learn the technical knowledge, and at some point, we as mentors do need to start turning the keys over to the students - as much as they can manage. The idea behind FIRST isn't just to inspire, it is to build leaders... They can't learn to be leaders having to take the backseat the entire time.

XaulZan11

12-02-2012, 20:28

that is when students see a wicked awesome robot built by mentors - it doth not inspire nor encourage.

Watching 111 take on 71 (http://www.thebluealliance.com/match/2006il_f1m3)(two teams who I thought were mentor built at the time*) in the finals of my first regional was pretty inspiring for me.

*I obviously no longer think that now.

Akash Rastogi

12-02-2012, 20:39

Andrew Lawrence

12-02-2012, 20:44

I would be on Cory's side on this one.

I've said plenty of stupid things on CD since I started using it. Having those stupid posts still exist for all to see (especially for me to see) is a reminder to correct such actions in the future.

+$0.02

I agree with Cory that keeping it there reminds the user of their mistake, however we could be a bit lenient towards the OP, since it was his/her first offense. If it was a repeating problem, I'd say put it in bold letters for everyone to see, but it's not.

If/when I say something stupid, I expect it to stay there since I don't learn anything if it disappears, but only because I've been here for about a year now, and I've said stupid things before.

Alan Anderson

12-02-2012, 20:51

I think the appropriate way to respond to a post attacking mentors for building their team's robots for the students is to simply invite the author to visit one of the teams being accused and see what really goes on.

Andrew Lawrence

12-02-2012, 20:52

SousVide

12-02-2012, 20:54

:deadhorse:

it's always inspiring to see professionals do work - obviously, I am talking about inspiring for the students to see what they can do *on their own skills*... Sure, it's great to see NASA engineers build the space shuttle - that's not what I am getting at...

I build awesome rockets too, on my own time and in my own shop - when I am mentoring, I am trying my damnest to have the students learn to be able to do it... not turn it into a sweatshop for my own enjoyment - but that's just me... I'll have to admit that it is a difficult line to draw, it's the 20th hour and nothing works - what then. I can't say that I understand other's in their own situation. My opinion is that the students get the robot commensurate with their own skills and knowledge... It's terrific that I know how to put one together, but that's not the idea...

I always congratulate other teams for their awesome job... and if it turns out to be a space shuttle job - that's great too, I'd still admire it for what it is... But just too bad for some of these students who do get the short end... FWIW, I haven't seen an awesome robot without the students behind it yet... Even if I see one, I promise not to point it out ;)

Watching 111 take on 71 (http://www.thebluealliance.com/match/2006il_f1m3)(two teams who I thought were mentor built at the time*) in the finals of my first regional was pretty inspiring for me.

*I obviously no longer think that now.

nitneylion452

12-02-2012, 21:12

Was the response by the community a good one? No. Was the topic sensitive? Yes. Did the OP apologize and try to reformulate his question/argument in a non offensive way after seeing that s/he offended some people? No. And that's where the issue lies in my mind. Sometimes we say things in a way that isn't the best to convey our true feelings or intent. When we do that and people respond in a way that shows they are offended, we should step back, apologize for the original comment, state our true intent, and reformulate our thoughts. The OP didn't do that in this case.

Granted, the response by the community as a whole was not good as far as what was public, but I think negative rep is a good way to tell a poster that he's crossed a line. It's there for that reason, so we should use it. Yes, it's a shame that the poster has such bad rep at the moment, but I think had he done what I described above, his rep may have increased or at least stayed the same as he would have admitted to a mistake and taken the high road in this case.

In conclusion, this thread was just bad all around. Neither side is really right or took the moral high ground. I do, however, agree with Corey's comments in locking the thread. If you say something that you will regret in the real world, nobody will be there to delete it. The same should hold true in this instance.

NickE

12-02-2012, 21:19

I was a student on a team that has been specifically called out on these forums before for being structured with what some posters viewed as too much mentor involvement. Having had a phenomenal experience on the team, directed attacks like these just seem insulting.

Everybody has a different idea of how a FIRST team should be run. My opinion is that in situations like this, the original poster should be reminded that there is not one perfect team structure and nobody should tell anybody else how to run their team. Different teams inspire members in different ways and this diversity in structure is not a bad thing.

Koko Ed

12-02-2012, 21:27

I actually wonder if the kid was booted off of his team and is trying to burn them by insulting as many team in FIRST as they can while representing themselves as a member of their team(this isn't a new problem but they usually do it without a team number so there is no backlash towards their own team) That was a very real fear of mine if a student is booted off my team and decided to get revenge by damaging our reputation by going around giving us a bad name with rude behavior on CD.

sgreco

12-02-2012, 22:06

I think the topic of the post is important (but the execution was in poor taste). I also agree with Cory that people should be held responsible for what they say. I've certainly made some posts that I regret, but if you can just delete them, change your user name, etc. (effectively hide from it), then you never learn anything. People should think twice before they post (something I could certainly stand to do myself).

With my experience in FIRST I've found that the most important for people to realize is that FIRST is mostly about inspiration; I'm not suggesting that other things don't matter, but inspiration is first and foremost in terms of the goals of FIRST.

Students can't learn if they don't do somethings themselves, but they also can't learn by doing everything by themselves; it's a lot easier to learn with professional guidance. That said, it's most important that kids are inspired. They can be inspired in so many different ways by so many different levels of involvement. I think we should let teams deal with the ratio of student work to mentor work on an individual basis. If the team exists, students are coming, and if students are coming, they're more than likely inspired in some way or another.

PayneTrain

12-02-2012, 22:39

There's always one way this annual discussion comes to life.
This is the more likely and more disappointing way.

Contrary to the belief of the op, no one likes it when you attack other teams.

Contrary to the belief of a few Chief Delphi members, red-repping the kid into the 6th circle of hell isn't exactly a quick fix.

I think when people who are at the mentoring age verbally go after an OP in a negative way, you are giving them what they expect, and not what they are supposed to hear. Send a PM asking why they think that. Ask if they want to come visit your build site. Ask for mentor contact information and get the communication lines open. Two people sitting with their noses facing opposite corners have a tough time finding common ground.

It's not the duty of the community to be a Gracious Professionalism Internet Police squad, but a set of spokespeople who promote the good works of gracious, rational, professional members of the CD community and the FIRST community through both their words and their actions representing these values.

It's Sunday on Week 6. In 9 days, we all bag up a robot that we enter at competition in March and April. Some of us have been done for a week. Some of us finished most of our work today. I feel like this member is staring at a few parts in a box and no where to go.

Well, no where to go except the internet machine. The thought process probably involves seeing what other teams are doing, how they are doing it, and what they are doing. Then after looking back at the progress of this students team, a few unsavory dots begin to connect themselves.

Ye who has not thought enviously of other teams, cast the first stone.

I'll watch.

nileshp87

12-02-2012, 23:07

I was in no way criticizing all mentors in one group, sorry if it came across that way. I had just noticed it was quite prevalent at both the competition and scrimmage we went to last year, while observing teams in their pits.

MrForbes

12-02-2012, 23:16

Watching what happens in the pits might give you a false impression of what happens during build season.

wireties

12-02-2012, 23:29

Watching what happens in the pits might give you a false impression of what happens during build season.

Totally agree - there is a lot of pressure in the pits. Students have worked themselves to death for many weeks only to see a robot that is dead in the water and dozens of cheering fans in the stands staring at an empty alliance station.

Does a mentor use this as a teachable moment and spend hours (missing multiple matches) nudging the students towards a solution? Or does a mentor jump in (when asked) and fix the robot in 15 minutes so it can go out for the next match (and afterwards explain/teach what was wrong)? It is a tough call. Mr nileshp87, I can swear to you this happens over and over again inside most teams (and with teams helping other teams during events).

DampRobot

12-02-2012, 23:43

I think that the OP on the thread mentioned had a good point, just didn't word it correctly. I have many times felt frustration for various reasons at other teams who I felt were "cheating" or doing something "unfair." However, I havn't posted with such a clearly offensive tone on a public forum where I know my comments will reflect on myself and on my team.

As for the negrep, I think that it it can be a very good way to give the member feedback and to keep them accountable. I received some negrep in some of my early posts; it helped me learn about how my statements would come across. If we didn't have an effective reputation system, how could circumspect and vetran members like Ether or SuperNerd be recognized? I think negrep is an effective tool, especially with less experienced posters.

I agree with the OP on the mentioned thread, I think mentor participation can sometimes undermine student learning despite the best intentions. To me, it goes with sponsor fabrication as ways that can make FRC less of a learning experience for students in an attempt to make a team more competitive. I am in no way trying to pick a fight, I just want to say that I understand what the OP was trying to say.

nileshp87

12-02-2012, 23:50

Akash Rastogi

12-02-2012, 23:54

If FIRST is truly about the students then look at what they are saying about the topic not what the mentors are saying.

You are talking to mentors who were once students in this program.

EricH

13-02-2012, 00:04

I have never given neg rep. I prefer neutral rep or a PM if I need to send a rebuke. Sometimes I'll respond somewhat harshly in public--but in public, I try to be at worst "chilly" to even the worst offenders. (I'm more likely to try to give a level-headed answer, after a few hours of turning over the initial post and some of the responses if possible.)

The times I have thought about giving a neg rep, I usually discover that at least 47 people (or some other significant number) already have, and I figure that I'd just be adding insult to injury and let it go. Usually, you've got to be pretty darn "thickheaded" (for lack of a better word) on an inflammatory topic to get me thinking that way seriously--unapologetic works as well.

wireties

13-02-2012, 00:10

nitneylion452

13-02-2012, 00:10

Why would the students not know how to repair the robot if they were being so very well taught during build season?
There may be odd cases but for the most part the answer is quite obvious and the same.

Simple repairs are often obvious issues, such as a broken chain, or a loose wire. But let's say you're out there driving the robot and all of the sudden, it dies. You bring it back to the pits and do the routine checks. All of the wires are okay and everything else seems solid. The students have no idea what is wrong with the robot. A mentor has a pretty good idea of what's happening. Should he give a hint to the students on how to fix it and miss multiple matches, or should the mentor jump in and fix it, briefly explaining what happened as he works, then giving full details during a break?

As a mentor who is only one year removed from being a student, I would want the mentor to jump in and fix it because I want to compete! I worked with my teammates for 6 weeks to get there! Why would I want to see that effort go to waste as we try to identify the issue and waste precious time?

EricH

13-02-2012, 00:14

Why would the students not know how to repair the robot if they were being so very well taught during build season?

The students all went to lunch because someone mistimed lunch to arrive while repairs were going on.
The students are out strategizing for their next match.
The mentors you see are in fact students--you just can't see that because they're elbows-deep in the robot. (This goes both ways; your second year in FIRST is your first year as a mentor, or something like that.)
The students are trying to recover extra material to assist in the repair.
The students haven't gotten back to the pit from watching the match yet--the drive team had to go up and grab the pit crew in a hurry, then stopped to strategize with the scouts, and you happen to look in the 2 minutes when the drive team's out and the pit crew's not back down.

See, you're assuming that the students don't know how to repair the robot. I find it much safer to assume that the students do know how to repair the robot, but for any number of reasons there aren't any visible in the pit.

Also, I've got to agree with Akash. Check your PM box for the one I sent last night. 5 years on a team as a student, working with mentors 1-on-1 (and not always the same mentor in one night). I learned a lot more than I would have if I'd had to struggle through solo. I'm stepped back as a mentor, not because I don't want to step in, but because distance makes it very difficult to do so.

jason701802

13-02-2012, 00:34

There are a number of posts in this thread that I find as aggressive and angering as the post by the OP of the other thread. I don't agree with how he stated his opinion, but I have to say that I sympathize with him, even more so after some of the reactions in this thread.

5 years on a team as a student, working with mentors 1-on-1 (and not always the same mentor in one night). I learned a lot more than I would have if I'd had to struggle through solo.

'with' being a very important word is this statement.

JaneYoung

13-02-2012, 00:48

Why would the students not know how to repair the robot if they were being so very well taught during build season?
There may be odd cases but for the most part the answer is quite obvious and the same

If FIRST is truly about the students then look at what they are saying about the topic not what the mentors are saying.

I think it might be helpful for you to assign yourself some homework. The purpose of the homework would be to gain a better and broader understanding of FRC and its purpose.

Take some time and do some searches in CD regarding this topic, finding threads that discuss it. It (the topic) goes back quite a few years. That's part of the homework assignment. The other part is to talk to other teams. The Hall of Fame teams are examples of teams who understand the bigger picture and can explain it and share their experiences of working together to build the team that builds the robot. Many teams have that understanding but the HoF teams are great role models for sharing all things FRC.

From doing my own homework - reading older threads and talking with teams and with individuals such as Andy Baker - I have a better understanding of how and why FIRST was founded and what some of the hopes and expectations were - 20 years ago. I also have an understanding of how the program has continued to grow, develop, and evolve. This would include the FRC teams and the members of those teams that have participated through the years.

If you think that FIRST is all about the students and for the students - then you don't have the full picture. If you think mentors need to go off and form their own robotics program, then you still don't have the full picture. With doing the homework and finding answers to your questions and thinking about them - then you can begin to acquire the tools necessary to help you build an understanding of the program that you have become a part of. Then - your criticisms of mentors and teams may carry a little more weight. Maybe.

To add, I've had this discussion with parents routinely for 10 years. Students aren't the only ones who get confused by the freedoms that FRC teams have with regard to forming key leadership roles on their individual teams.

Jane

ttldomination

13-02-2012, 00:56

Why would the students not know how to repair the robot if they were being so very well taught during build season?
There may be odd cases but for the most part the answer is quite obvious and the same

If FIRST is truly about the students then look at what they are saying about the topic not what the mentors are saying.

Many a people have flamed you for your belief, but I can understand where you're coming from.

In my freshman year, I had very similar sentiments. My team seemed to do perfectly fine with 1-2 main mentors and a strong horde of students. So it bit a little when we were bested by teams who carried insane mentor to student ratios.

As I climbed the robotics ladder I learned exactly how strong the mentor/student bond was. I also learned exactly how large some of the other programs were. So it became kind of a 'If you can't beat them, join them" deal, we actively sought out mentors to assist our team. The mentors we found bring years of experience into the team, and I can say that I can spend the next 10 years in college, and I still won't learn some of the things that they have taught me.

As an alumnus on team 1261, and a 'mentor' in the loosest definition of the word, I now realize how important a true mentor is. Even today, I find myself going back to old mentors for design help. And something that's new, I find that students approach me for help on design, electrical, heck, even asking how to tap a piece of 8020.

To wrap up this post, I understand where you're coming from, but attempt to understand and learn who mentors are, why they are helping teams, and what the students are really getting out of it. If you put yourself on such a 'high' pedestal, you might just miss out on all of the fun we're having down here.

- Sunny G.

Ninja_Bait

13-02-2012, 07:10

I think it might be helpful for you to assign yourself some homework. The purpose of the homework would be to gain a better and broader understanding of FRC and its purpose.

Take some time and do some searches in CD regarding this topic, finding threads that discuss it. It (the topic) goes back quite a few years. That's part of the homework assignment. The other part is to talk to other teams. The Hall of Fame teams are examples of teams who understand the bigger picture and can explain it and share their experiences of working together to build the team that builds the robot. Many teams have that understanding but the HoF teams are great role models for sharing all things FRC.

From doing my own homework - reading older threads and talking with teams and with individuals such as Andy Baker - I have a better understanding of how and why FIRST was founded and what some of the hopes and expectations were - 20 years ago. I also have an understanding of how the program has continued to grow, develop, and evolve. This would include the FRC teams and the members of those teams that have participated through the years.

If you think that FIRST is all about the students and for the students - then you don't have the full picture. If you think mentors need to go off and form their own robotics program, then you still don't have the full picture. With doing the homework and finding answers to your questions and thinking about them - then you can begin to acquire the tools necessary to help you build an understanding of the program that you have become a part of. Then - your criticisms of mentors and teams may carry a little more weight. Maybe.

To add, I've had this discussion with parents routinely for 10 years. Students aren't the only ones who get confused by the freedoms that FRC teams have with regard to forming key leadership roles on their individual teams.

Jane

Quoted for truth.

Why can't we all be as sweet and nice as Jane Young?

In the meantime, let us leave grumblers and naysayers behind while the rest of us keep working forwards. We let them drag us down too easily, which is exactly what they want - misery loves company - and it leaves everyone unhappy, defamed, and bitter.

Ultimately, the only way to effect change is to do it yourself. To nileshp87: go and beat all those mentorbots that you see out there. If your student-run team can beat a mentorbot, then what is the point of a mentorbot? Then go meet a mentorbot team. To everyone else: remember that negative rep is not supposed to be for shutting down people's opinions. I hate to see people, including myself, overreact to something they disagree with. In the end, someone will be right, and someone will be wrong, but perhaps we can just wait to see what way it goes, instead of butting heads first.

Daniel_LaFleur

13-02-2012, 09:03

I've been reading these posts,and collecting my thoughts ....

Why would the students not know how to repair the robot if they were being so very well taught during build season?
There may be odd cases but for the most part the answer is quite obvious and the same

If FIRST is truly about the students then look at what they are saying about the topic not what the mentors are saying.

Niles,

I've been a mentor for the past 10 years. Every year I have 2 goals:
1) Inspire the kids to go on and do great things in thier lives
2) To not pick up a tool during build season

as for #1 -- I believe I have succeeded beyond my dreams. 100% of our seniors have gone on to college. Some have even returned as mentors (for us or other teams).

as for #2 -- I fail gloriously every year. Most times, its while teaching or explaining concepts. Sometimes its while troubleshooting a robot falure.

So, yes, I have picked up a tool and worked on the robot. But its because I want to inspire my students. Do you believe a broken robot during competition is inspiring?

If you want to understand more, I invite you to our build time. PM me.

I am locking this thread. Will leave it in place so that nileshp87 isn't shielded from the consequences of his actions on the internet.

I've been a mod on forums that are much more "in the wild" than CD. Locking a thread is at the mods discretion, but your last statement was uncalled for. You need to leave your personal feelings behind when you moderate and just ennforce the rules of the boards. Niles may have much to learn, but using your position as a bully pulpit is not how teaching should be done.

thefro526

13-02-2012, 09:24

IKE

13-02-2012, 10:47

Not a slam on the original poster, but a couple of neat things to think about.

"How should we react to posts?"
This statement says a lot. There is a pretty strong arguments about the abuse of the word "should" (http://www.mindfulcommunication.com/article-d3.htm). Please don't "should on me". You "should" do this, you shouldn't do that is a breading ground for conflict psychologically. Even in your own inner monologue. I "should" on myself too often.

The second strong word in this statement is "react".

react:
1. to act in response to an agent or influence: How did the audience react to the speech?
2. to act reciprocally upon each other, as two things.
3. to act in a reverse direction or manner, especially so as to return to a prior condition.
4. to act in opposition, as against some force.
5. to respond to a stimulus in a particular manner: reacting to a shock by jumping; to react to the word “coward” with anger.

"Reacting to a post", can be quite dangerous. There is a part of the brain that is activated when you are angry. It is the part that invokes the fight or flight response. This part is really important when you are in danger. There is little chance of immediate danger, and thus it is not necessary to react. Also, since this is the internet, it is likely that anyone looking for an argument can find a willing participant. I prefer to "respond". And a little play on respond is ponders (as in multiple sessions of pondering).

If you ponder more, respond less, and react even less, rarely will find your foot in your mouth less frequently.

BTW, I "like to respond to posts" in a manner that thoroughly gets my point across without being a detriment to myself or my team's reputation.

JaneYoung

13-02-2012, 11:16

I hesitated to post in this while I got my thoughts together.

Personally, I think that a stern response may be best for these types of instances. Some of the comments made in that thread are things that someone could only get away with on a Forum like CD. I think that sometimes we're a little too nice in our responses to blatant attacks against teams and their ideologies.

Depends on how you want to spend your time on CD. If you want to police it and sit in harsh judgment - fine. If you want to find opportunities to mentor and share your knowledge and experience, that's fine, too.

What I have found many times is that members new to teams don't learn many of the different aspects of being a FRC team from their own team and mentors. They are left to their own devices to learn, figure out, and create confusion for themselves. There is also that part of the complex puzzle that is tuning out/not listening to people who attempt to explain those different aspects.

Several times in recent years, I've had the pleasure of helping mentors, students, and parents try to wrap their minds around the competitive performances of the fantastic FRC team, 148, the Robowranglers. They don't know anything about 148 until they get to competition and then, WHAM-O - who.are.these.guys?! :) Sometimes, I am very successful in conveying the incredible opportunities that teams like 148 provide. Sometimes, I am not successful because of one simple reason - the person listening believes that this FRC program is a high school competition and it should only be for high school students. Sometimes, if the mentor, student, or parent sticks around long enough to begin to understand and respect the program - they develop an appreciation for such a remarkable team. I single out 148 because of our regional competitions in Texas and because so many new teams have sprung up here so quickly in the past few years. Those of us who understand the FRC program and its impact potential - spend a lot of time trying to build bridges of understanding. With the bridges in place and communication channels open to the possibilities - teams can develop and mature at a faster rate than if they are left to their own ideas of what they - think - FRC is.

Because of the discussions/efforts/workshops that I've been involved in, I know that if we, as veteran members, don't help build those bridges of understanding, the program weakens and it is reflected in the competitions. CD always presents opportunities for building bridges, maximizing the potential to develop a deeper understanding of the program that so many of us are so passionate about.

It's what I choose to do. Besides, FRC teams are tough. They can handle a little naive uneducated criticism, even if it gets horsey once in a while. Consider the source.

Jane