14 inch protrusion beyond frame

[Elizabeth Velds]

We are not clear about the appendage that we have designed and built for our robot. This is our first year competing.

It is a wedge that extends 14" beyond the frame perimeter. Our frame perimeter is the maximum allowed.

It is our understanding that this is an allowed appendage because it does not extend beyond 14" of the frame perimeter based on
[R20] "D. any appendage may not extend more than 14 in. beyond the frame perimeter"

and on the inspection checklist under mechanical
"PLAYING CONFIGURATION - Robot may not extend beyond ... 14" beyond frame perimeter"

HOWEVER, on the inspection cheklist, the initial inspection states that
"Excursion Beyond Frame Perimeter No robot components can extend beyond the frame perimeter in the starting configuration."

We also know that if anything is added to the robot after inspection, then it must be re-inspected.

SOOOO, we understand this to mean that our appendage must be inside the perimeter but attached during the initial inspection, but then AFTER that we are allowed to have the appendage protrude outside of the frame perimeter as long as it is not greater than 14 inches.

We just want to make sure we are interpreting this correctly.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

We are as rookie as rookie can be.

[Becca334]

You must start with all appendages within your chassis. However, during the match you're allowed one appendage at a time up to 14 inches outside the chassis perimeter.

[EricH]

When you take the field for each match, you have to have the appendage stowed inside the Frame Perimeter. Once the match starts, you can deploy the appendage to the 14" (how is up to you).

[onecoolc]

The appendage must be articulated. Basically, it must begin the match inside the perimeter, but then can be mechanically moved/extended outside, so that it is no longer in the position it started in (as long as it is no farther out than 14").

If your appendage moves in/out of the frame perimeter by itself, you're fine.

If your appendage can not move on it's own power, you have a bit of a problem.

[Elizabeth Velds]

Oh dear. Some clarification, some raised confusion.

It is clear to me that the protrusion must be inside the frame at inspection and may be deployed on the field at match time.

What is not clear to me is the MANNER in which is may be deployed.

We had made a wedge that extended outside of the frame (but within 14 inches) that is able to move the ramp down for our robot to get on.

We have a few ideas on how to stow it attached but within the frame up to match time. But it requires unlatching latches by hand -- much like a door on door handles and a door handle locking into place using one's hand.

We are not sure if doing such is allowed.

[bduddy]

Oh dear. Some clarification, some raised confusion.

It is clear to me that the protrusion must be inside the frame at inspection and may be deployed on the field at match time.

What is not clear to me is the MANNER in which is may be deployed.

We had made a wedge that extended outside of the frame (but within 14 inches) that is able to move the ramp down for our robot to get on.

We have a few ideas on how to stow it attached but within the frame up to match time. But it requires unlatching latches by hand -- much like a door on door handles and a door handle locking into place using one's hand.

We are not sure if doing such is allowed.My understanding of the rules is that such devices can only be deployed during the match. The rules state:
[G01]

When placed on the Court, each Robot must be in compliance with all Robot rules, may not exceed 60 in. tall, and have all appendages within its Frame Perimeter. The Robot must be in contact with its Key, and may contain up to two Basketballs.Although it doesn't exactly say this, this rule really refers to the Robot at the start of the match. Otherwise you could, for example, place the robot on the Key and then push it anywhere else.

Sorry, but I don't believe the system you described is legal...

[Becca334]

You won't be able to unlatch it by hand, it needs to be mechanically done.

[nitneylion452]

Unless those latches are just for safety while off the field and the appendage holds itself back under its own power, your design is probably illegal, but we'd need pictures and maybe a video to give a better analysis.

[Bill_B]

Elizabeth,
Your appendage is the right size, but it must be moved into place under the control of the same program that runs your robot. For example, after you enter teleop mode, someone at your driver station pushes a button that starts a motor on your robot to spin a gear that makes your appendage extend.

[Gearheads1]

I don't see why it can't be deployed during Hybrid, say to tip the Coopertition bridge and get balls on your side of the field. The key is it has to be totally inside your perimeter when the match starts and can only be deployed after the start of the match when human hands aren't available. Good luck working through this, hope you have a great season!

[jvriezen]

Others have said this in different ways, but just to be sure you understand-- You place the bot on the court, with all appendages inside the frame perimeter. You walk off the court. Appendages exit the perimeter via robot actuators -- a piston, a motor, some sort of release mechanism. You don't need a way to retract the appendage, as long as you are happy with it being your only appendage option once you deploy it.

Your posting seem to indicate you need to stow your appendages for purposes of checking size during inspection -- and that is true, but it also applies to the robot rright up until the instant hybrid period starts.

You also mentioned in the OP that you built to 'maximum' frame perimeter allowance -- Most teams build to an inch or so less than the max The reason is that you MUST fit into the inspector station sizing box, which is exactly 28x38x60. Any bolt heads or 'out of square' conditions on robot that cause it to exceed this strict measurement will need to be dealt with.

[CalTran]

Totally reviving an old thread, but does anybody know if the appendage is restricted to 14" while in transition? I can't rememember where I heard or saw that it isn't, and I can't find a rule explicitly restricting it, but I'm not sure....a quick reply would be much appreciated.

[remulasce]

[G21]
Robots may extend one appendage up to 14 in. beyond a single edge of their frame perimeter at any time.
Violation: Foul for exceeding size allotments; Technical-Foul for continuous or repeated violations

Extending an appendage beyond 14 in, even in passing, is illegal. There is no allotment for extra size while deploying.

You may be thinking of the blue-box update for the requirement that an appendage be contiguous. The update allowed brief periods of incontiguity as the appendage extended or retracted:

[G21 Blue Box, Abridged]
All portions of an appendage that are outside the Frame Perimeter must be contiguous with each other. Very brief violations of the contiguity requirement as a single appendage is being extended or retracted will not be penalized.

This does not exempt you from the 14" rule. You may at no time extend more than 14" beyond your Frame Perimeter.

[CalTran]

Ah. That'd be it. Thanks!

[jvriezen]

Since the thread is revived, a clarification on the answer to the original question... As Inspector at 10K Lakes, I worked with a team that built a bridge tipper very simply. It was simply a standard wedge arm on a pivot, that was held just past vertical by gravity. A little movement of the robot, and it fell forward. A gate latch kept it down once it fell. No motor, no pneumatics, just the simplest of simple machines.

I never actually saw it in action, but I heard it worked marvelously well. I hope no one ran into it though....

[AlexD744]

Since the thread is revived, a clarification on the answer to the original question... As Inspector at 10K Lakes, I worked with a team that built a bridge tipper very simply. It was simply a standard wedge arm on a pivot, that was held just past vertical by gravity. A little movement of the robot, and it fell forward. A gate latch kept it down once it fell. No motor, no pneumatics, just the simplest of simple machines.

I never actually saw it in action, but I heard it worked marvelously well. I hope no one ran into it though....

Gate latches work wonderfully for tipping the bridge. That is unless you wish to retract your manipulator. We had latches, and after the system was broken in, it got to the point where it became nearly impossible to retract the ramp lowerer (costing us a finals match, and possibly a regional win). At our last event we ended up scrapping the latches and the power of the Van Door motor was enough to get the ramp down.

[loyal]

So our team 4055 has an arm that has worked flawlessly. It is legal. If we added a stinger to the arm that was on a pivot and a solenoid released it then it gravity dropped. Is it now two appendages? Like this, we go up the bridge and drive to the edge, the arm comes down and is extended straight out, the solenoid releases the gravity pivot stinger. Would that be legal?

[CalTran]

So our team 4055 has an arm that has worked flawlessly. It is legal. If we added a stinger to the arm that was on a pivot and a solenoid released it then it gravity dropped. Is it now two appendages? Like this, we go up the bridge and drive to the edge, the arm comes down and is extended straight out, the solenoid releases the gravity pivot stinger. Would that be legal?

If it forks outside of the bumper perimeter then it is still one appendage. From what I've been able to see on webcasts, that's about the same as most other stingers

[EricH]

I'd be cautious with that gravity drop. Gravity is exceptionally reliable at dropping things, but not too great at pulling them back up. You should make sure that you have a way to pull up the stinger once you're balanced, without grabbing or grasping the bridge. Otherwise, no balance points.

[loyal]

I'd be cautious with that gravity drop. Gravity is exceptionally reliable at dropping things, but not too great at pulling them back up. You should make sure that you have a way to pull up the stinger once you're balanced, without grabbing or grasping the bridge. Otherwise, no balance points.

In order to pull up the stinger we will be able to just lift up the arm and the stinger will rise also. As long as it doesn't effect the balance it should work. I think?:cool: We are gonna find out before Saint Louis.

[EricH]

In order to pull up the stinger we will be able to just lift up the arm and the stinger will rise also. As long as it doesn't effect the balance it should work. I think?:cool: We are gonna find out before Saint Louis.
It should work... but how are you going to find out before St. Louis? (If that "finding out" involves unbagging the competition robot, you're going to have some trouble with inspection.)

[loyal]

It should work... but how are you going to find out before St. Louis? (If that "finding out" involves unbagging the competition robot, you're going to have some trouble with inspection.)

We will make and fit it to our test bot.(should mention we have a test bot) Completely disassemble it. Bring it with us as our 30 lbs. Unbag the bot. Install stinger on arm. Then have it inspected. Good plan or bad plan?

[rsisk]

Good plan ;>