View Full Version : Alamo 2012
So who is attending alamo?
midway78224
24-02-2012, 21:41
We will be going to lone star but since we are from san antonio we will be watching from the stands.
We'll be there with a skeleton crew. It's going to be fun to see how another region plays robots.
AllenGregoryIV
24-02-2012, 21:48
I'll be inspecting and we should have a few other volunteers from my team there as well on Saturday.
JaneYoung
24-02-2012, 22:28
I'll be inspecting and we should have a few other volunteers from my team there as well on Saturday.
Some of the folks from 418 will be joining you guys in helping to support the Alamo Regional by volunteering. I can only come volunteer on Thursday but I am looking forward to it. I'm sooooo excited that Madison and 488 are making the trip to San Antonio for the first time!
Jane
2158 is chomping at the bit.
Andrew Schuetze
24-02-2012, 23:59
I'll post on be half of the 36 advancing FTC teams from the Austin, Brownsville, Laredo and two San Antonio FTC qualifiers competing on Friday for a chance to earn a spot at world's. Likewise, 61 FLL teams on Saturday as part of the brand new FLL Championship.
If you team is bringing more than a skeleton crew, we could use some FTC and FLL practice field monitors and judge assistants on Friday and Saturday. PM or send me a note if you want to volunteer.:cool:
I'll be there telling people where to go, what to do, when to do it and how fast I want them to do it. Don't ask me why. It's a que thang, you gots to understand...
JaneYoung
25-02-2012, 09:53
I'll be there telling people where to go, what to do, when to do it and how fast I want them to do it. Don't ask me why. It's a que thang, you gots to understand...
You'll get to see some of the teams you met at Texas Robot Round-up and meet some new ones. Thank you for coming all this way, Ed!
Jane
You'll get to see some of the teams you met at Texas Robot Round-up and meet some new ones. Thank you for coming all this way, Ed!
Jane
Thank Southwest for flying me there. It's why I picked Alamo over Smokey Mountains.
Out of curiosity, is San Antonio's downtown completely dead and abandoned on a weeknight? We arrive fairly late and will want food, I'm sure. Is Riverwalk always kinda alive?
2583 will be there! It should be a good one.
Kevin Sevcik
27-02-2012, 23:47
Out of curiosity, is San Antonio's downtown completely dead and abandoned on a weeknight? We arrive fairly late and will want food, I'm sure. Is Riverwalk always kinda alive?The Riverwalk's busy till really late. I don't think you'll have too much trouble finding someplace to eat. Most places are open til at least 10pm there. Barriba Cantina is open till 2am, and I'm sure there's other places open late.
Also, it's probably out of your price range ($25 entrees) but Boudro's makes tableside guacamole that's ridiculously good.
Andrew Schuetze
28-02-2012, 00:27
San Antonio has a vibrant downtown. There are many establishments along the Riverwalk which serve food and drinks of both kinds late. There is a McDonalds and even a Fuddruckers if you want a 1/3, 1/2, ... build your own burger on a homemade bun, ... On your way downtown, you can stop at any number of local or chain Mexican food restruantes. Taco Cabana is open late with the original location on Hildebrand & San Pedro just off of US HWY 281 which is on the way from the airport.
In short, Downtown San Antonio is tourist friendly place with the Alamo, Riverwalk, Rivercenter Mall, Ripleys Believe it or Not Museum, House of Wax, ....:D
Andrew Schuetze
28-02-2012, 00:30
Thank Southwest for flying me there. It's why I picked Alamo over Smokey Mountains.
Any reason to you pick SA over any other week one event is a reason the celebrate.:)
JohnSchneider
28-02-2012, 00:42
Any reason to you pick SA over any other week one event is a reason the celebrate.:)
Dont sell yourself short... Alamo has a frightening list of teams attending this year. It may be one of the better week 1s.
Im not From SA but I am from the wonderful state that houses it,
And for any visiting teams I would recommend going to the River walk at night.
If you have Wednesday or Sunday to spare, I would also recommend going to the Alamo, its a cool piece of Texas History.
Kevin Sevcik
28-02-2012, 01:12
The Alamo is neat, and all, but Ripley's Believe it or Not is a lot more likely to amuse a bunch of robot nerds.
JohnSchneider
28-02-2012, 01:28
Those aren't just in SA though. Whereas that is the only place to see the Alamo :P
Andrew Schuetze
28-02-2012, 10:29
For the Civil Engineering nerds, the Riverwalk has a north reach that opened in recent years that has a lock system to move the barges upstream. It has some really nice walking / jogging paths and on the right Saturday morning you might find a FIRST Senior Mentor with his relay for life team. SA also has less than year old rent a bike program with bikes parked in stations ready to accept cash or credit for pay by the day/hour rental. Somewhere near the River Center Mall is a Segway self-guided tour of the downtown store. One has to pass a short safety course::safety:: I think before they let you out of the shop.
Thanks, everyone, for the recommendations. I'm sure we'll wander around Riverwalk during the evenings -- our hotel is, I believe, right alongside it.
My Sunday will be spent at Fiesta Texas. I can't pass up a chance to ride roller coasters.
Kevin Sevcik
28-02-2012, 15:54
It's been a while since I've been, but the Poltergeist was good last time I was there. LIM coaster that launches you at 60 mph into, literally, a huge knot of track. Plus you can hear it sounding spooky from a quarter of the park away.
It's been a while since I've been, but the Poltergeist was good last time I was there. LIM coaster that launches you at 60 mph into, literally, a huge knot of track. Plus you can hear it sounding spooky from a quarter of the park away.
Yeah, I am looking forward to Poltergeist; it's a clone of the Flight of Fear coasters in Virginia and Ohio and I quite liked the Virginia version when I last rode it several years ago. I'm also looking forward to Goliath, a mirror-image of the original Batman: The Ride at Great America near Chicago.
Krypton Coaster is the longest floorless coaster in the world, so that's cool; and for awhile, it had the largest vertical loop in the world. I'm also kinda curious about Rattler. It has an interesting history and has been completely neutered, so I'm interested to see what could've been there.
JaneYoung
28-02-2012, 17:17
Yeah, I am looking forward to Poltergeist; it's a clone of the Flight of Fear coasters in Virginia and Ohio and I quite liked the Virginia version when I last rode it several years ago. I'm also looking forward to Goliath, a mirror-image of the original Batman: The Ride at Great America near Chicago.
Krypton Coaster is the longest floorless coaster in the world, so that's cool; and for awhile, it had the largest vertical loop in the world. I'm also kinda curious about Rattler. It has an interesting history and has been completely neutered, so I'm interested to see what could've been there.
What do you mean by Rattler being neutered and when did that occur? (I think you mean that it has been tamed?)
My husband still talks about the horrors of that ride after several years of trying to forget about it. And he loves roller coasters.
Jane
What do you mean by Rattler being neutered and when did that occur? (I think you mean that it has been tamed?)
My husband still talks about the horrors of that ride after several years of trying to forget about it. And he loves roller coasters.
Jane
When The Rattler opened in 1992, it was the tallest, fastest wooden roller coaster in the world. It had a 166' first drop. During the park's off-season each year for the following four years, The Rattler's first drop was in some way re-profiled. The end result was a first drop that is 42' shorter today than when it was originally opened.
The ride was designed and built by the Roller Coaster Corporation of America just before computer's began to revolutionize roller coaster design and is part of a generation of wooden coasters that were, in many ways, too big for their britches. As a consequence, The Rattler was a VERY rough ride when it first opened; the changes to its first dropped were meant to lower its speed and smooth out the violent vibration that occurred at the bottom of that drop.
This video shows the original ride: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4YGPKbKhq0
And this shows the reprofiled drop: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trDnwt72hMM&feature=fvwrel
JaneYoung
28-02-2012, 17:47
When The Rattler opened in 1992, it was the tallest, fastest wooden roller coaster in the world. It had a 166' first drop. During the park's off-season each year for the following four years, The Rattler's first drop was in some way re-profiled. The end result was a first drop that is 42' shorter today than when it was originally opened.
The ride was designed and built by the Roller Coaster Corporation of America just before computer's began to revolutionize roller coaster design and is part of a generation of wooden coasters that were, in many ways, too big for their britches. As a consequence, The Rattler was a VERY rough ride when it first opened; the changes to its first dropped were meant to lower its speed and smooth out the violent vibration that occurred at the bottom of that drop.
This video shows the original ride: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4YGPKbKhq0
And this shows the reprofiled drop: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trDnwt72hMM&feature=fvwrel
Ok, we went a few years later which would be after the change. He said, "It was like a controlled crash the entire time." I think you're going to like it. :)
Jane
Kevin Sevcik
29-02-2012, 10:47
Returning to our regularly scheduled programming...
I've worked out a deal with my wife, so I'm actually going to be at Alamo all or most of Saturday. For research purposes. (Spying) And to check in on the various Houston area teams that are attending. So I'll see you all there on Saturday, and you'd better put on a good show, dang it. That's 6 hours round trip I'm driving for you people.
Going to miss you guys this year, was already signed up to volunteer for Alamo when San Diego got bumped to week 1. Next year for sure!
tanguma26
29-02-2012, 23:19
Good luck to all the teams attending the Alamo Regional and a special shot out to team 3999 Shadetree Mechanics:)
EricLeifermann
01-03-2012, 14:32
Anybody know what type of ruling 118 has gotten for there hanging balancing?
JohnSchneider
01-03-2012, 16:57
Against my better judgement I have decided to drive from college station to come watch Saturday. I just couldn't wait for robots any longer.
rcmolloy
01-03-2012, 16:59
It's legal, for now.
https://twitter.com/#!/robonauts118
It's legal, for now.
https://twitter.com/#!/robonauts118
How did you draw that conclusion? Their feed implies they will not know until tomorrow.
JohnSchneider
01-03-2012, 17:09
If you look at the match in which that happen 118 was on Red and 488 was on blue. The Coopertition score is 0...this would actually imply it didn't count...
Time will tell...
rcmolloy
01-03-2012, 17:11
Hmm, why would they post then? This is only going to get more and more frustrating until qualifications start.
JohnSchneider
01-03-2012, 17:14
"successfully balanced" could just mean that the Bridge was level.
Successful != legal
Like I said - the field system shows they were awarded 0 points.
Hmm, why would they post then? This is only going to get more and more frustrating until qualifications start.
I read the tweet as meaning they were physically successful, not necessarily legally successful.
rcmolloy
01-03-2012, 17:17
I read the tweet as meaning they were physically successful, not necessarily legally successful.
Yes I do see it now. I did tweet them back for a more concise clarification on the ruling.
Nick Lawrence
01-03-2012, 17:20
I was told by a student on another team that the ruling would be handed out tomorrow.
-Nick
JohnSchneider
01-03-2012, 17:22
I wouldnt be surprised if the Refs had to call the GDC and clarify if it's in the "spirit of the game".
Scott England
01-03-2012, 19:34
There's a picture of that balance with 488 on the Robonauts facebook page. I think it's publicly viewable. Just search Robonauts.
wireties
01-03-2012, 22:28
Against my better judgement I have decided to drive from college station to come watch Saturday. I just couldn't wait for robots any longer.
I loved the Alamo last year - alas, it coincided with a band trip this year.
Have fun and take notes!
AlecMataloni
01-03-2012, 22:38
Honestly, even if the balancing mechanism is ruled illegal, at least 118 will have an awesome bridge manipulator. It's not like they built their entire robot around one strategy that got ruled illegal (see the Troll Bot discussion).
However, if their method IS legal, Then i'm expecting every competition to play this sound whenever they balance: http://inception.davepedu.com/ ;) .
The Coopertition score is 0...this would actually imply it didn't count...
The entire day they were not scoring bridge points. Numerous teams including ours balanced but the points were not displayed. The points being neglected does not imply anything.
Let's see what happens tomorrow!
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/428342_10150598517439472_506304471_9018500_4874649 50_n.jpgThere's a picture of that balance with 488 on the Robonauts facebook page. I think it's publicly viewable. Just search Robonauts.
Aren_Hill
01-03-2012, 22:56
Honestly, even if the balancing mechanism is ruled illegal, at least 118 will have an awesome bridge manipulator. It's not like they built their entire robot around one strategy that got ruled illegal (see the Troll Bot discussion).
Aside from the trollbot we'd built could still manipulate the bridge and pickup and shoot balls....
AlecMataloni
01-03-2012, 23:19
Aside from the trollbot we'd built could still manipulate the bridge and pickup and shoot balls....
You're right. I should've used 190's 2008 hurdling mechanism, or 68's field-obstructing mechanism in 2003 as an example.
looks like 118's hang has been ruled legal. Match 1 score changed to add 10 bridge points.
Anyone know if there's a live stream of the matches?
JohnSchneider
02-03-2012, 10:51
why is the stream still down?
sdcantrell56
02-03-2012, 11:00
looks like 118's hang has been ruled legal. Match 1 score changed to add 10 bridge points.
That's interesting considering a 118 mentor told me this morning they were ruled illegal. You sure you have your story straight?
stream for alamo is working now
http://madstream.team1323.com/
cast for Alamo is working now
That's interesting considering a 118 mentor told me this morning they were ruled illegal. You sure you have your story straight?
Yes. check usfirst match results
Link here (http://www.alamo-first.org/component/content/article/53-frc/145-2012-frc-webcast.html).
Lowfategg
02-03-2012, 11:17
Yes. check usfirst match results
Don't mean they balanced with it, could be they just went on the bridge like normal.
Aren_Hill
02-03-2012, 11:18
Yes. check usfirst match results
well anything saying they didn't just drive onto the bridge to balance?
That's interesting considering a 118 mentor told me this morning they were ruled illegal. You sure you have your story straight?
Initial result from FMS twitter:
#FRCSTX TY Q MC 1 RF 43 BF 5 RA 118 3582 2936 BA 3999 3353 3103 RB 10 BB 0 RFP 9 BFP 0 RHS 6 BHS 5 RTS 18 BTS 0 CP 0
(43 points)
Result on event match results now:
9:15 AM 1 118 3582 2936 3999 3353 3103 53 5
(53 points)
Sources:
http://twitter.com/#!/frcfms/status/175597747330756608
http://www2.usfirst.org/2012comp/Events/STX/matchresults.html
Andrew Schreiber
02-03-2012, 11:24
Initial result from FMS twitter:
#FRCSTX TY Q MC 1 RF 43 BF 5 RA 118 3582 2936 BA 3999 3353 3103 RB 10 BB 0 RFP 9 BFP 0 RHS 6 BHS 5 RTS 18 BTS 0 CP 0
(43 points)
Result on event match results now:
9:15 AM 1 118 3582 2936 3999 3353 3103 53 5
(53 points)
Sources:
http://twitter.com/#!/frcfms/status/175597747330756608
http://www2.usfirst.org/2012comp/Events/STX/matchresults.html
Congrats... there was a balance. Who was on the bridge? Can you tell me that from that information? If you can could you also tell me some lottery numbers? I'd like to retire early.
well anything saying they didn't just drive onto the bridge to balance?
chat indicated they hung, ruled a technical, usfirst showed no balance pts for Match 1, 118 asked for ruling, balance points restored. I did not see as stream was down for early matches
Congrats... there was a balance. Who was on the bridge? Can you tell me that from that information? If you can could you also tell me some lottery numbers? I'd like to retire early.
Just providing the information that likely led to the assumption. Chill :)
thefro526
02-03-2012, 11:31
Match 009, 148 did not move and their number was red.
Did they get a red card? Or does Red mean no comms?
Match 009, 148 did not move and their number was red.
Did they get a red card? Or does Red mean no comms?
No, there was a field issue that bypassed them.
That match will be rerun right before lunch
Justin Ridley
02-03-2012, 11:41
The Robonauts were informed this morning our mechanism would be penalized if used. We did not attempt to hang in our first match, nor will we for the remainder of this tournament. 2936 balanced the bridge for 10 pts. The head ref announced the ruling to the regional during a break after match 4. I will post more details on this at a later time.
JaneYoung
02-03-2012, 11:42
Congrats... there was a balance. Who was on the bridge? Can you tell me that from that information? If you can could you also tell me some lottery numbers? I'd like to retire early.
Can we save the snarkiness for other places and leave it off CD and off this thread?
Jane
The Robonauts were informed this morning our mechanism would be penalized if used. We did not attempt to hang in our first match, nor will we for the remainder of this tournament. 2936 balanced the bridge for 10 pts. The head ref announced the ruling to the regional during a break after match 4. I will post more details on this at a later time.
Thank you again for providing us direct information on your team's situation. I am interested to hear the exact wording of the ruling and how it will effect teams throughout the rest of the season. I look forward to your comments.
thefro526
02-03-2012, 11:46
No, there was a field issue that bypassed them.
That match will be rerun right before lunch
Thanks for the clarification.
Tom Bottiglieri
02-03-2012, 11:47
The Robonauts were informed this morning our mechanism would be penalized if used. We did not attempt to hang in our first match, nor will we for the remainder of this tournament. 2936 balanced the bridge for 10 pts. The head ref announced the ruling to the regional during a break after match 4. I will post more details on this at a later time.
That's too bad Justin. I was really hoping this would be ruled legal.
Andy Baker
02-03-2012, 12:00
The Robonauts were informed this morning our mechanism would be penalized if used. We did not attempt to hang in our first match, nor will we for the remainder of this tournament. 2936 balanced the bridge for 10 pts. The head ref announced the ruling to the regional during a break after match 4. I will post more details on this at a later time.
Thanks for the update, Justin. Congrats to your team for going out on a limb and designing a mechanism that was risky, but inspirational at the same time. You guys created this most likely for the sake of seeing if it could be done, and to push the envelope.
I believe that you guys did this in a very appropriately timed fashion, publishing a video around the time of kickoff and also demonstrating this during practice day at a week 1 regional.
As usual, 118 is a classy and innovative team.
Sincerely,
Andy Baker
118 just flipped and took a hit while trying to balance on the coopertition bridge.
Hope everything is ok
1477's fender shooting is deadly. It will be interesting to see where they go tomorrow. 118 is also fender shooting but to the side with the turret, the two of them would fit well together and would be a deadly combo. It will also be interesting to see what 148 can do when fully operational and how they fit into the equation. I have a strong feeling that 2 of these 3 teams will be in the top alliance.
AdamHeard
02-03-2012, 13:32
Thanks for the update, Justin. Congrats to your team for going out on a limb and designing a mechanism that was risky, but inspirational at the same time. You guys created this most likely for the sake of seeing if it could be done, and to push the envelope.
I believe that you guys did this in a very appropriately timed fashion, publishing a video around the time of kickoff and also demonstrating this during practice day at a week 1 regional.
As usual, 118 is a classy and innovative team.
Sincerely,
Andy Baker
I'm curious if Tuesday's team update will provide any commentary on this issue, or will FIRST just let the ruling of a head ref at one regional be the indication to all teams around the world of whether or not this system is legal.
Kevin Sevcik
02-03-2012, 13:38
I'm curious if Tuesday's team update will provide any commentary on this issue, or will FIRST just let the ruling of a head ref at one regional be the indication to all teams around the world of whether or not this system is legal.It would seem like someone should announce it. I know it will likely get passed around among the head refs, but everyone in FIRST isn't following the situation on CD and all that. Or, at least, FIRST shouldn't assume they are.
Tristan Lall
02-03-2012, 13:41
So is it just me, or is something screwy about the co-opertition bridge scoring?
In the rankings page (http://www2.usfirst.org/2012comp/events/STX/rankings.html), three teams are listed with 2 CP each, and all others have 0 CP each. That's not possible if the Twitter feed (http://twitter.com/#!/search/%23FRCSTX) is accurate. CPs are scored for both alliances simultaneously, and can't be erased by DQs (although the QPs that ordinarily result would not count).
(Also, the FMS web feed seems to have just gone down, so you may have to wait a while to check this.)
Tristan Lall
02-03-2012, 13:42
In the rankings page (http://www2.usfirst.org/2012comp/events/STX/rankings.html), three teams are listed with 2 CP each, and all others have 0 CP each.
And now the standings are back...but with 1 CP each. Still wrong.
Tristan Lall
02-03-2012, 14:22
Match 25: if you can't shoot, for god's sake, go for the bridges! (Especially the middle one.)
did anyone else lose audio on the webcast?
ALL OF THE BRIDGES!!!!!! AHAHHAA best match I've seen yet
JaneYoung
02-03-2012, 14:44
ALL OF THE BRIDGES!!!!!! AHAHHAA best match I've seen yet
Oh man. What am I missing by being at work?!
(On break... )
Jane
231, 118, 3481 on red vs 2583, 3417, and 2789 on blue (one of the three was missing, I didn't see which)
Red balanced their bridge with 2. Coopertition was balanced with 2. Blue alliance bridge was balanced with the last robot. All robots on the field were balanced, too cool.
(Red put 4 balls in autonomous too, also impressive)
JaneYoung
02-03-2012, 14:59
Thanks, Chris. I bet the fans in the stands went nuts.
Wow.
Jane
Tristan Lall
02-03-2012, 15:18
231, 118, 3481 on red vs 2583, 3417, and 2789 on blue (one of the three was missing, I didn't see which)
Red balanced their bridge with 2. Coopertition was balanced with 2. Blue alliance bridge was balanced with the last robot. All robots on the field were balanced, too cool.
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/1816/5waybalanceon3bridgesst.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/5waybalanceon3bridgesst.jpg/)
In this case, it looks like the Twitter feed (http://twitter.com/#!/frcfms/status/175667271119802369) has got it right (2 CP); the FMS feed (http://www2.usfirst.org/2012comp/events/STX/rankings.html) still doesn't (blue didn't get any CP/red got 2 each).
Blue isnt supposed to have any. They made an announcement that the entire blue alliance got DQd for the match because one of their robots hadn't passed inspection and that human player was still playing -> pretty rough on the blue alliance imo, but I guess those are the rules
Tristan Lall
02-03-2012, 15:43
Blue isnt supposed to have any. They made an announcement that the entire blue alliance got DQd for the match because one of their robots hadn't passed inspection and that human player was still playing -> pretty rough on the blue alliance imo, but I guess those are the rules
I didn't hear the announcement. (The non-inspected robot DQ affects the whole alliance, even in qualifying rounds, so that much is right.)
Regardless, disqualified teams are supposed to keep their CP, but forfeit the QP bonus (equal to the number of CP earned) along with the rest of their QP for that match. This impacts the rankings for the Co-Opertition Award.
Sean Raia
02-03-2012, 15:46
Some of these matches are just depressing...
I understand that its the first week of competition but still.
PayneTrain
02-03-2012, 17:16
Apparently they will let some shoddy bumpers through... at least at Alamo. I wish I didn't have to bring it up, but considering how critical we all have been over each other team's bumpers, it annoys me bumpers that break multiple rules are allowed to compete.
Scott England
02-03-2012, 18:42
is the Alamo webcast down for anyone else? Or rather I should ask, does anyone have a working link? I managed to catch the last few but it seems like the feed died around 5:30ish local time with ~10 matches left in the day.
it is down. recorded matches keep loading
Scott England
02-03-2012, 18:48
looks like it just came back for the last few seconds of match 64, running through 68 today
Thanks, Chris. I bet the fans in the stands went nuts.
Wow.
Jane
OH they did.
I did too! I was screaming and jumping down in my room.
JaneYoung
02-03-2012, 21:13
OH they did.
And were there certain fans and team members jumping up and down when one of their amazing team mentors garnered the Outstanding Volunteer Award AND another amazing mentor on the same team garnered the Woodie Flowers Finalist Award? :)
Congratulations to Jess! Congratulations to David!
Oh.my.goodness!
Jane
Scott England
03-03-2012, 11:55
Has this happened elsewhere yet? (haven't seen a ton of matches)
Something to think about as autonomous plans improve
Has this happened elsewhere yet? (haven't seen a ton of matches)
Something to think about as autonomous plans improve
This has been very common in our testing. The nets are really constricted at the bottom and two balls entering in rapid succession almost always cause jams.
148, 922, 2936 just triple balanced!
EricLeifermann
03-03-2012, 15:11
148's alliance just balanced 3 robots!
speedbuggy76
03-03-2012, 15:13
148 balances three
Amazingly smooth balance.
It was 148 922 and 2936 who had the triple balance!
GCentola
03-03-2012, 15:15
that comeback with the 3-robot balance was truly amazing! Congrats on pulling it off!
Im rooting for 148.
These matches are awesome.
148 won.
avanboekel
03-03-2012, 15:58
If I see another triple balance, then I think I'm going to eat a cRio!
George Nishimura
03-03-2012, 16:01
I think they're going to go for the triple again. 118, 488 and 3325 just need to double and be up by 20+, I can see a really close one.
Maybe they'll both go for the triple again!
EDIT: They're going for a third. This will be good.
372 lives on
03-03-2012, 16:42
nooooooooooooooo.......
what happened to xbot? i couldn't see the robot.
:(
George Nishimura
03-03-2012, 16:43
Oh my goodness what just happened?
I cannot believe 148 922 and 2836 won that.
gyroscopeRaptor
03-03-2012, 16:44
I'm going to go ahead and call that the most exciting set of three games EVER.
BHS_STopping
03-03-2012, 16:45
That triple at the end with half of 2936's robot hanging off the end of the ramp while 922 was oriented long-ways was incredible!
WOW! All 118 needed was 1 bot on the bridge and they would've won.
Now on to the FINALS!
Can't believe the refs didn't call that, that was completely deliberate.
George Nishimura
03-03-2012, 17:19
How did 148 tip?
Alamo, full of drama today! If only the livestream didn't freeze <_<
Sean Raia
03-03-2012, 17:20
Can't believe the refs didn't call that, that was completely deliberate.
I agree, but you cant blame the blue robot for persisting with his defense... it was a pushing fight and 148 just happened to be rocking too much.
So while it was a bit deliberate, i can see why the refs didn't call it.
nahstobor
03-03-2012, 17:20
Great no call. Let them play.
I agree, but you cant blame the blue robot for persisting with his defense... it was a pushing fight and 148 just happened to be rocking too much.
I don't know, from what I saw he stopped while under 148's bumper to decide what to do, then charged forward with the intent of tipping him.
372 lives on
03-03-2012, 17:23
the rules say you cant use a mechanism for tipping robots
looked legal because it looked like it was all bumper on bumper.
PayneTrain
03-03-2012, 17:23
Apparently the bandwidth in South Texas can't handle how awesome these games are.
AndrewMorrison
03-03-2012, 17:25
To me it looked like 148 was rocked backward, and the defending machine charged into them pushing them until they tipped over.
If the defending machine was not there 148 would have fallen back onto their wheels.
ratdude747
03-03-2012, 17:25
Can't believe the refs didn't call that, that was completely deliberate.
Agreed.
nahstobor
03-03-2012, 17:25
I don't know, from what I saw he stopped while under 148's bumper to decide what to do, then charged forward with the intent of tipping him.
It was a clean play. All bumper.
the rules say you cant use a mechanism for tipping robots that looked legal because it looked like it was all bumper on bumper so that is more of 148 design error.
Intent should factor in just as much, and it looked to be pretty intentional. It looks like they're pausing to review that match at the moment as well.
EricLeifermann
03-03-2012, 17:26
the rules say you cant use a mechanism for tipping robots
looked legal because it looked like it was all bumper on bumper.
The reason everyone is angry is because when 148 started to tip the team pushing them didn't back off, they just kept right on pushing. It wasn't necessarily against the rules but it was bad form....
nahstobor
03-03-2012, 17:28
Intent should factor in just as much, and it looked to be pretty intentional. It looks like they're pausing to review that match at the moment as well.
Don't forget the location. The robot playing defense on 148 can argue that they were attempting to go into the lane.
Sean Raia
03-03-2012, 17:31
WHAT AN UPSET IS RIGHT!
That was amazing, well played blue.
NOO they lost. :(
148 lost...
KevinGoneNuts
03-03-2012, 17:32
Alamo just had the craziest finals matches! Best regional I have seen in a long time!!!:D
RayTurner1126
03-03-2012, 17:32
now that no-call comes up BIG
Exciting regional, I'd like to say that I'm not disappointed by the outcome, but....
This game is very crazy no team can be dominate in it me thinks.
Peyton Yeung
03-03-2012, 17:33
148 shouldn't have gone for the triple. A double would have won it. Nice try though
Chickenonastick
03-03-2012, 17:33
The commentating during the last seconds of the final match was priceless.
jason701802
03-03-2012, 17:33
I'm surprised that the manipulator on 148 isn't able to right the bot.
I'm glad the tip wasn't called, the games were a lot more fun when there was a lot of tipping.
Sean Raia
03-03-2012, 17:34
This game is very crazy no team can be dominate in it me thinks.
I would tend to agree, every robot is subject to flipping (even more so because of these bridges) and it can really turn the match around.
ratdude747
03-03-2012, 17:34
now that no-call comes up BIG
QFT
racesick222
03-03-2012, 17:35
148 shouldn't have gone for the triple. A double would have won it. Nice try though
No it would have been tied 50-50
jason701802
03-03-2012, 17:36
No it would have been tied 50-50
You're forgetting the penalty points
Sean Raia
03-03-2012, 17:36
No it would have been tied 50-50
It would have been 56 - 50 in reds favor.
racesick222
03-03-2012, 17:36
Now that would have been fun
never mind the final score was 36-50 not 30-50
EricLeifermann
03-03-2012, 17:38
Don't forget the location. The robot playing defense on 148 can argue that they were attempting to go into the lane.
That has no merit to whether they fouled 148 or not. It was VERY obvious that they were not trying to get to their alley and where just playing defense.
After the last match the webcast rewound and showed the tip of 148 and after seeing the whole altercation it was very clearly intentional and something should have been called.
Sean Raia
03-03-2012, 17:40
Read G26:
Strategies aimed at the destruction or inhibition of Robots via attachment, damage, tipping or entanglement of Robots are not in the spirit of the FRC and are not allowed.
Violation: Technical-Foul plus Yellow Card
It wasn't a strategy, it was a result of pushing bumper to bumper. It "just happened". Its clear that they made the proper call (in my eyes).
372 lives on
03-03-2012, 17:43
That has no merit to whether they fouled 148 or not. It was VERY obvious that they were not trying to get to their alley and where just playing defense.
After the last match the webcast rewound and showed the tip of 148 and after seeing the whole altercation it was very clearly intentional and something should have been called.
eric can you point out the rule that said they committed a foul?
I'd say it was very clearly within the rules. Even though it's impossible to prove, they had malicious intent, as can clearly be seen through the footage of the event. Weren't they also the same robot who stopped 148 from doing the triple balance in the previous match?
372 lives on
03-03-2012, 17:45
I'd say it was very clearly within the rules. Even though it's impossible to prove, they had malicious intent, as can clearly be seen through the footage of the event. Weren't they also the same robot who stopped 148 from doing the triple balance in the previous match?
i dont see a rule ..........
i dont see a rule ..........
....Which is basically what I was trying to say. There isn't a rule that prevents you from tipping other robots over, however I think most of us can agree that deliberately disabling other robots isn't in the spirit of the competition.
honour, etc
Chris is me
03-03-2012, 17:52
After the last match the webcast rewound and showed the tip of 148 and after seeing the whole altercation it was very clearly intentional and something should have been called.
For the sake of playing devil's advocate, should 148 not have gotten a foul for contact outside the bumper zone?
EricLeifermann
03-03-2012, 18:02
For the sake of playing devil's advocate, should 148 not have gotten a foul for contact outside the bumper zone?
Who did 148 contact outside the bumper zone(I might have missed it)?
These were some of the best matches I've ever seen. The triple balance has a huge advantage in finals as proven by 148. I can't wait to see how the rest of the season plays out!
Something I noticed not just in the final match but in many others is that alliances are risking multiple robots on the bridge when sometimes just 1 (or in 148's case 2) robots would guarantee a win. I think all coaches should be careful when making these calls in the future.
EricLeifermann
03-03-2012, 18:04
These were some of the best matches I've ever seen. The triple balance has a huge advantage in finals as proven by 148. I can't wait to see how the rest of the season plays out!
Something I noticed not just in the final match but in many others is that alliances are risking multiple robots on the bridge when sometimes just 1 (or in 148's case 2) robots would guarantee a win. I think all coaches should be careful when making these calls in the future.
Agreed.
Who did 148 contact outside the bumper zone(I might have missed it)?
I guess they contacted as they were flipped over?
I hope not, because that sounds completely ridiculous.
I guess they contacted as they were flipped over?
I hope not, because that sounds completely ridiculous.
If that was the case, it would presumably be a [G44] call. No foul on 148.
There is no rule that prohibits tipping, true. But strategies aimed at the disablement or tipping of other robots are disallowed. Not having seen the tip, I can't say whether it was a strategy aimed at tipping or not; it is possible to have that strategy without making it obvious (my team's been on the receiving end of those before)--and if it isn't obvious, the refs probably won't call it.
If that was the case, it would presumably be a [G44] call. No foul on 148.
There is no rule that prohibits tipping, true. But strategies aimed at the disablement or tipping of other robots are disallowed. Not having seen the tip, I can't say whether it was a strategy aimed at tipping or not; it is possible to have that strategy without making it obvious (my team's been on the receiving end of those before)--and if it isn't obvious, the refs probably won't call it.
I can say with certainty that they paused when they realized they were about to tip 148, then pushed forward as hard as they could. The coach behind the human player on that side was even clapping.
Largely irrelevant, but this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAO_LpwHX-0&feature=related) happened to our team in 2006.
jason701802
03-03-2012, 18:23
Largely irrelevant, but this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAO_LpwHX-0&feature=related) happened to our team in 2006.
That was part of the game back then. We were responsible for tipping many robots in 2006 and before. That also looks a lot less intentional than the tipping of 148.
That was part of the game back then. We were responsible for tipping many robots in 2006 and before. That also looks a lot less intentional than the tipping of 148.
The post-tip ramming was what I was referencing, sorry.
jason701802
03-03-2012, 18:25
The post-tip ramming was what I was referencing, sorry.
Yes, that was uncalled for.
Andrew Lawrence
03-03-2012, 18:45
When will the matches be available for viewing? Will they be on youtube? A different source?
Chris is me
03-03-2012, 18:52
Who did 148 contact outside the bumper zone(I might have missed it)?
As 148 was being pushed, they rode up and landed on the angled surface above the bumpers of the defending robot. By the rules, that is contact outside the bumper zone.
(After that, the defending robot drove forward, pushing 148 into the blue lane and eventually over. The rest is history...)
Again, I am playing devil's advocate here - I have no stance on the matter, just curious...
Ian Curtis
03-03-2012, 18:53
The level of play in the 488 alliance v. 148 alliance and 148 alliance v. 231 alliance was simply off the charts. If that "sets the bar" for week one I really can't wait for week two!
I know the GDC reserved the right to change the point amount for the triple balance, but for now it looks just about right. It is a lot of points, but the other alliances always had a way to make it close. It will be interesting to see how alliances can cut that time down as the season progresses, and how trapping robots on the field evolves.
This game is a ton of fun to watch. :)
Kevin Sevcik
03-03-2012, 23:46
Okay, so first off, Alamo totally made the 6 hour round trip of driving worth it. Epic eliminations, even in some of the quarters.
About 148 in the finals. I'd like to point out that 148 was actually incredibly lucky they we're playing for their lives in match 2 of the finals. In match 1, 457 did a great defense job on 148, started to back off, then made a wrong move and touched the red bridge. 148 proceeded to fail at balancing for reasons completely unrelated to 457 touching the bridge. 148 still won that match because interfering with a balance means that bridge counts for maximum points. If it wasn't for a silly slip by the 457 driver, 148 would have been in a much worse position in match 2. Weird random stuff happens in the finals. When two strong alliances face-off it's almost a guarantee something weird is going to happen that you can blame the loss on. In this case 148 lost, so it's the no-call. If the refs made that call, it'd be that oops touch of the bridge by 457.
And thanks go out to the awesome teams that put on such a great show in the elims for my benefit. That'd be 118, 148, 231, 457, 488, 922, 1477, 2848, 2936, 3103, 3325, and 3481.
Congrats to the winners and finalists and especially to 2158 on their Chairman's and 3103 for their second in a row Engineering Inspiration at Alamo. That's not easy and they sure deserve it.
....Which is basically what I was trying to say. There isn't a rule that prevents you from tipping other robots over, however I think most of us can agree that deliberately disabling other robots isn't in the spirit of the competition.
honour, etc
G26]
Strategies aimed at the destruction or inhibition of Robots via attachment, damage, tipping or entanglement of Robots are not in the spirit of the FRC and are not allowed.
Violation: Technical-Foul plus Yellow Card
For example, use of wedge-like mechanisms to flip Robots would be considered a violation.
But i was watching the web cast like everyone else the refs made the right call. Iam sure there will be talk within the next week among refs about this call/no call. remember we as refs make calls in real time and we cant see everything so go easy on Us.
Yes it was a shame they tipped but it was not the first time this has happened in an event and it will not be the last.
congrats to all week One teams and good luck to week two teams.
Thank you Alamo regional for an exciting round of week 1 elimination matches. Having 3 vs 5 in the finals showed how balanced the elimination alliances ended up being and the level of play put on by some of the lower seeded alliances was amazing.
The 1 vs 5 semi-final was truly spectacular. I don't know how many other elimination rounds we will see that show two contrasting alliance strategies (bridge versus ball scoring) so prominently.
Ready for week 2 now.
AllenGregoryIV
04-03-2012, 01:13
Thank you to everyone that made Alamo possible this year, including all the teams. I was only inspecting but it was such a fun event and you couldn't ask for a more exciting way to start off FIRST season.
itsjustmrb
04-03-2012, 15:09
On behalf of FRC Team 4063 – TrikzR4kiDz I would like to thank everyone for their gracious hospitality to our team. We are a rookie team in every sense of the word and we really appreciate all the words of wisdom and suggestions that were presented to us during the Alamo Regional Event. We had an awesome time and look forward to seeing y'all again next year.
Thanks again,
Mr. Billeaudeau
On behalf of Team 2080, Torbotics, I'd like to thank each and every person that made the Alamo Regional possible. We were working out some bugs on our robot up through Saturday morning, but thanks to the amazing group of people offering their continuous support, things were straightened out. I'd post a list thanking everyone that aided our team, but it would just go on. This weekend was truly one to "remember" ;)
My son tells me about a rather disturbing incident at Alamo.
Evidently, when 148 was called up to receive their award as finalist, there was dead silence.
Come on guys! 148 is a valient competitor and I've never seen them act in a way that doesn't display gracious professionalism. By eliminating the number 1 seed and being the only team to put together an alliance capability to triple hang, they've earned the right to be finalists.
They deserve better.
On behalf of my son, I offer my sincere apologies. 148 has been a great team and a great friend to my son's team. I look forward to seeing you do even better at the JCP Regional in Dallas.
AllenGregoryIV
04-03-2012, 20:20
I was at the award ceremonies for Alamo and wouldn't in any way call it dead silence. Members of my team and most fans were cheering. In most cases the really load noise and cheering for awards is led by the team that wins them. In this case some members of 148 may have been in a slightly less than ecstatic mood after a perceived no call eliminated them from competition. 148 is an extremely important member of the Texas robotics community and everyone here loves and respects them however they have never been the most spirited team and they take pride in their professionalism (going so far as not participating in the wave or other group spirit things during events, JVN wrote a bit about that at some point). It was in no way a reflection of teams not supporting power houses and especially not a power house that will go above and beyond to help every team they possibly can. It was quieter than other team's responses but that is because 148 was quieter than other teams and there is nothing wrong with that.
JaneYoung
04-03-2012, 20:46
When 148 goes down to take their Awards walk, everyone in the stands should cross their arms. 148 has taken a lot of pride in using that gesture to show strength and intimidation. It would be a gesture they would understand and appreciate since they don't like to wave or cheer. I think it would be amazing to see everyone with their arms crossed.
:)
Jane
Regarding the 148 tip... I am surprised no one has mentioned 148's very unstable drivetrain as a primary reason for this tip. If you watch the match video prior to the tip, they are rocking and swaying constantly every time they change direction. Very unstable. When the defender got under their bumper, is was because 148 had tipped up on their own just before the defender made contact. The tip-over happened very quickly as the defender was following through with their push. No way you can call it intentional or strategic. 148 has some issues to deal with regarding the stability of their pneumatic tires and wheel arrangement.
Coach Norm
04-03-2012, 21:57
2468 had a great time at Alamo. Thanks to 245 and 2969 for being part of our alliance in the quarterfinals. It was a great pleasure to have each of you on our alliance.
It was great to compete with all of the teams in attendance there.
I was totally shocked when the opposing alliance got the triple balance in the second match of our quarterfinals. I thought 148 was going to tip us over twice trying to get to the bridge. 245 was waiting on us at our bridge and we thought had left with enough time but to no avail. Congrats to 148, 2936 and 922 on the victory.
Defense is a underestimated part of this game than I think that many have previously thought especially in the eliminations.
Regarding the 148 tip... I am surprised no one has mentioned 148's very unstable drivetrain as a primary reason for this tip. If you watch the match video prior to the tip, they are rocking and swaying constantly every time they change direction. Very unstable. When the defender got under their bumper, is was because 148 had tipped up on their own just before the defender made contact. The tip-over happened very quickly as the defender was following through with their push. No way you can call it intentional or strategic. 148 has some issues to deal with regarding the stability of their pneumatic tires and wheel arrangement.
I disagree. It was pretty obvious that the opponent stopped to pause for a second when 148 was off the ground but not tipped. They then continued to follow through and finish the tip.
This happens all the time and never gets penalized though. I immediately thought to myself that it was an intentional tip, but there was no way they would get called for it.
It was pretty obvious that the opponent stopped to pause for a second when 148 was off the ground but not tipped.
I would measure it as closer to 1/10th of a second. But my point was about the lack of stability being the root cause of the tip-over. This push would not have tipped over our robot or many others I have seen so far. There is no way a defender can know whether a particular robot is going to tip or just slide when pushed. That is only revealed when it happens, and it happens very quickly. If you build an unstable, top heavy robot this is a risk you take. A defender in the fender zone of this game can't be asked to back off of a pushing situation just because the other robot is one that is prone to tipping.
Quick question: does anybody know about how long it takes for match videos to be uploaded to The Blue Alliance?
Kevin Sevcik
04-03-2012, 22:57
Quick question: does anybody know about how long it takes for match videos to be uploaded to The Blue Alliance?Anywhere from two days to never. Literally. We don't even know if anyone has recorded the matches, so there's no way of telling if they'll ever make it up.
Anywhere from two days to never.
I'll second the "never." I have sent them many matches that were needed and they were never posted. TBA ain't what it used to be.
I can say with certainty that they paused when they realized they were about to tip 148, then pushed forward as hard as they could. The coach behind the human player on that side was even clapping.
Largely irrelevant, but this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAO_LpwHX-0&feature=related) happened to our team in 2006.
I'm the lead mentor for 1477 and I know with certainty that tipping 148 was not the strategy for our alliance. 457's assignment was to keep 148 from getting their easy two point layups, just as 2936 was keeping us from getting ours. While the coach for 457 may have been clapping after 148 got tipped, a camera trained on me would have shown I was also pretty ecstatic. Without 148, I knew we had most likely just won the second Final's match.
I'm glad everyone found the final's matches as exciting as I did. I would also like to thank 231 for selecting us and 457 for doing such a great defensive job. That was so much fun!
RoboCat2005
05-03-2012, 03:03
2468 had a great time at Alamo. Thanks to 245 and 2969 for being part of our alliance in the quarterfinals. It was a great pleasure to have each of you on our alliance.
It was great to compete with all of the teams in attendance there.
I was totally shocked when the opposing alliance got the triple balance in the second match of our quarterfinals. I thought 148 was going to tip us over twice trying to get to the bridge. 245 was waiting on us at our bridge and we thought had left with enough time but to no avail. Congrats to 148, 2936 and 922 on the victory.
Defense is a underestimated part of this game than I think that many have previously thought especially in the eliminations.
On behalf of FRC Team 2969 we want to thank you both FRC team 2468 and
FRC Team 245 for picking us to be on your alliance it was a great honor after a not so stellar weekend. We look forward to the chance at working with you guys again in future competitions.
For those who weren't able to see it.
22:25
http://www.alamo-first.org/component/content/article/53-frc/145-2012-frc-webcast.html
Everyone gets their own opinion, but what matters is what the refs are taught by Dr. Aidan Browne.
For those who weren't able to see it.
22:25
http://www.alamo-first.org/component/content/article/53-frc/145-2012-frc-webcast.html
Everyone gets their own opinion, but what matters is what the refs are taught by Dr. Aidan Browne.
Watching this again reinforces my opinion. 148 makes an abrupt move which causes them to tip severely on their own just before the defender makes contact. 148's wheels are literally over the defender's bumper as the defender moves in. It was very bad luck and timing for 148, but you cannot expect the defender to stop their move or anticipate what was going to happen in a split second. FRC involves pushing. Sometimes if the interaction is just right (wrong), tall robots on bouncy wheels get pushed over. It happens.
Paul Copioli
05-03-2012, 12:36
Watching this again reinforces my opinion. 148 makes an abrupt move which causes them to tip severely on their own just before the defender makes contact. 148's wheels are literally over the defender's bumper as the defender moves in. It was very bad luck and timing for 148, but you cannot expect the defender to stop their move or anticipate what was going to happen in a split second. FRC involves pushing. Sometimes if the interaction is just right (wrong), tall robots on bouncy wheels get pushed over. It happens.
Two people look at the same video and see completely different things. In full disclosure, I obviously work at IFI, but that does not matter in this case as my opinion would be the same no matter who the two robots were.
jspatz1, I am with you except for one very crucial detail: the defending robot drove about 4 feet before 148 tipped. That is, to me, intentional tipping. I don't care how "tippy" a robot is. As a matter of fact, the red robot on the 148 alliance had several opportunities to do the exact same thing to Texas Torque when their robot's front wheels "tipped" up, but they did not. That is the difference between clean defense and not clean defense. I am certain that was not the alliance's strategy going in, but that is irrelevant as the actions are clear, to me, from the video.
Again, this are just the facts as I see them. I usually do not like speaking for others, but if this exact action happened at IRI when Andy Baker was reffing it would definitely have been a DQ. With Stu reffing I bet it will be a DQ at IRI this year.
Paul
Do I think 148's drivetrain partially caused the tip, yes. Do I think 457 intentionally tipped 148 after 148 landed on top of them, yes. If 457 wasnt intentionall trying to tip 148 over they would have driven backwards after being landed on by another robot. To me, that shows reckless care of one's robot to the point of intention.I'd say this event was a 90/10 share of tipping.(90% = 457 and 10% = 148)
I accept your opinion Paul and defer to your immensely greater amount of FRC experience. Its one of those questions that is only answered in the mind of the student driver. Did he see what was happening quickly enough too know for sure what was going to happen if he kept going? Was he an experienced veteran or a new driver full of adrenaline in his first FRC final? I'm not sure in the excitement of the moment I could have backed off of the push soon enough with my old man's reflexes, but maybe a student driver should have. Anyway, the tip was surely a combination of some very unfortunate rocking/timing for 148, and some aggressive driving from the defender. It wouldn't have happened without both. I'm not experienced enough to know what the right call was.
Jared Russell
05-03-2012, 13:02
Again, this are just the facts as I see them. I usually do not like speaking for others, but if this exact action happened at IRI when Andy Baker was reffing it would definitely have been a DQ. With Stu reffing I bet it will be a DQ at IRI this year.
I should hope not.
At worst, this should have been a technical foul + yellow card, per [G26]. [T17] permits the Head Ref to give Red Cards for "particularly egregious" behavior, but this is a tricky call that we can all agree was not premeditated by more than a couple seconds.
Kevin Sevcik
05-03-2012, 13:14
I should hope not.
At worst, this should have been a technical foul + yellow card, per [G26]. [T17] permits the Head Ref to give Red Cards for "particularly egregious" behavior, but this is a tricky call that we can all agree was not premeditated by more than a couple seconds.Coincidentally, a tech foul + yellow would have still resulted in a red win and 148 taking the regional championship in this particular case. But yes, [G26] lists a very specific penalty for this, and that penalty isn't an instant red card and DQ.
XaulZan11
05-03-2012, 13:14
While I think the conversation regarding 148's tip has been civil and generally productive, I rarely have good feelings when a call or non-call is the main topic of conversation after an event. Coming from a team that has benifited from some questionable calls in the past, it was disheartening to read all the discussions after the event revolving around the the non-call or decision by the head ref. Instead of celebrating my team's accomplishment, myself and my team had to listen to discussions questioning if we should have won or not. From what I've seen and heard, Alamo was a fantastic event. I just hope the win by 231-1477-457 and all the amazing things that occured during the event don't get overshadowed by one 2 second play.
Nuttyman54
05-03-2012, 13:21
I should hope not.
At worst, this should have been a technical foul + yellow card, per [G26]. [T17] permits the Head Ref to give Red Cards for "particularly egregious" behavior, but this is a tricky call that we can all agree was not premeditated by more than a couple seconds.
This is correct, it should have been a yellowcard. HOWEVER, there also should have been a redcard dolled out with the balancing interference in match 1, resulting in a yellowcard being carried into match #2, and the [G26] resulting in a double yellowcard->redcard.
This is a really crappy way to end a regional, but if all rules are being followed, this is what should have happened. I'm with Paul on this one that it falls under the jurisdiction of [G26], and I felt that way when I saw it live. Whether or not it was in the mind of the driver to try to tip them, whether it happened too fast, or was just an adrenaline-fueled reaction is irrelevant here: when you drive 4 feet with a team's chassis partially on top of you, and then back up and they fall, that has to be called as intentional by the refs because the ONLY thing they have to go off of is what they see.
It has nothing to do with the reactions of the driveteam afterwards. Regardless of if it was intentional or not, that's the natural reaction to a situation unfold that likely means you're going to a 3rd match. What it has to do with is the actions of 457 directly resulting in 148 tipping over. Watching the video it is clear to me that
1) 148 was rocking back at the time of contact, but not very far. They would not have tipped over had 457 not contacted them.
2) 457 continued to push forward towards 148 after they were clearly underneath them, an action which resulted in 148 tipping over.
I want to stress that I do not think 457 had any malicious intent to tip over 148. I am simply commenting on the fact that in situations such as this, it is impossible for the refs to read minds, and they MUST rule based on what they see. This has to be called as [G26], as similar actions have (or should have) in previous years.
JaneYoung
05-03-2012, 13:49
While I think the conversation regarding 148's tip has been civil and generally productive, I rarely have good feelings when a call or non-call is the main topic of conversation after an event. Coming from a team that has benifited from some questionable calls in the past, it was disheartening to read all the discussions after the event revolving around the the non-call or decision by the head ref. Instead of celebrating my team's accomplishment, myself and my team had to listen to discussions questioning if we should have won or not. From what I've seen and heard, Alamo was a fantastic event. I just hope the win by 231-1477-457 and all the amazing things that occured during the event don't get overshadowed by one 2 second play.
John, you are wise.
Perhaps the celebratory and happy posts could be made in an Alamo Congratulatory/Thank You thread created in this (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4) forum.
It's not unusual for teams from an event that has transpired to start a Thank You thread and it is an appropriate response after a weekend of competition.
Jane
dj bauch
06-03-2012, 19:43
Yes, I am defending my team -- but there have been several assumptions made by folks commenting on this thread.
When you see that team celebrating when 148 tipped over in round 2 of the finals, that was NOT my team! Team 457 was at the other side of the court. The celebrating team were our allies. Our driver could not see the predicament that the 148 robot was in as clearly as you see it in the video because his view was obscured by the baskets and backboards, not to mention our robot itself, which was between 148 and our driver. I can tell you first-hand that it was not our strategy to tip another robot. Teams 231 and 1477 selected us to join them because they wanted us to play defense, and to try to prevent 148 from scoring baskets, and we are very glad they did! Our team was just trying to keep 148 away from the baskets.
You should also take note of the fact that 148 tipped over in all three games of the finals, and that our robot was nowhere near them when those other accidents took place. 148 was, unfortunately, a bit top-heavy.
Some folks think we should have been penalized for 148's fall, but there is no rule that says that our robot has to run away when another robot becomes unstable -- otherwise the winning strategy would be to just design an unstable robot.
I will also point out that our team didn't make a peep when we were hit with a 49-point penalty for incidental contact with 148 or the bridge just before they lined up for a three-way robot balance attempt in the game before, although I can tell you I thought the penalty was outrageous. Unfortunately, my view of the contact was blocked by the head of somebody in front of me during the competition -- so I couldn't even tell whether it was with the bridge or with the robot, I could only see the parts of the robots above the bumpers. If you are able to see the first game of the finals on video, you will see that we backed away from the bridge and let the opposing team attempt the balance -- but there was some incidental contact just before that which is not in the video.
Celebrate that 148 was the first to demonstrate the triple balance in competition. As the defending Alamo champions, they were worthy opponents and crowd favorites.
I am a rookie mentor, but from day one I heard from my team what a great robot 148 had last year -- and how lucky we would be if we were chosen to be teamed up with them this year for the finals.
JoeWithTheSpecs
06-03-2012, 20:47
Does anyone have video of the triple balance? I might be able to post what I have tomorrow but if anyone else had footage that'd be great.
2789_B_Garcia
06-03-2012, 22:58
DJ, as lead mentor of 2789, I know where you're coming from. My team prides itself on two things: 1) designing & building robots that have a low center of gravity, and 2) playing hard-nosed defense within the rules. Our approach to competing in FRC games has resulted in other teams being neither gracious nor professional towards us, however, in the spirit of FIRST, I do what I can to show my team how to be gracious and professional when dealing with situations like these. I think your response above was thoughtful, and I like how your post both explains your team's approach and is respectful of your competitor.
I am a passionate person, and I know that the FIRST community is full of passionate people. There have been a great deal of posts on here that show that passion. I, of course, have my opinions on these matters, but I would rather show my passion for FIRST in a different way. I'm going to follow Jane's link posted above, and I'm going to write a much longer post about the importance of making human connections and building bridges based on an important lesson my team learned at Alamo this year. I would like to invite everyone else on this thread to follow that link as well, so that we can channel the passion we have for this sport into a much more productive, gracious, and professional manner. Honestly, the arguments could go on forever on this thread, and while several people on all sides have made valid and thoughtful points, I feel like the culture of our regional and the FIRST community would benefit more by focusing on the hard work everyone put into this event and the positive and lasting impact this event will leave on our teams and on our kids.
Astrokid248
06-03-2012, 23:22
Does anyone have video of the triple balance? I might be able to post what I have tomorrow but if anyone else had footage that'd be great.
Courtesy of the Robowranglers FB page: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=509eQSLcm90&feature=youtu.be
As to those asking for match videos, no guarantees, but if the scouters saved all the matches, I will try to have them posted to our YouTube channel by Friday. I doubt we'll have the finals, but we should have all the seeding matches.
2789_B_Garcia
06-03-2012, 23:40
I've created a new thread in Thanks & Congrats for Alamo, here's the link: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104319
Kevin Sevcik
07-03-2012, 10:18
Courtesy of the Robowranglers FB page: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=509eQSLcm90&feature=youtu.be
As to those asking for match videos, no guarantees, but if the scouters saved all the matches, I will try to have them posted to our YouTube channel by Friday. I doubt we'll have the finals, but we should have all the seeding matches.
2012 Alamo Videos (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104252)
UStream has a recording of the entire webcast in 8 multi-hour chunks. Also, 148 linking to my youtube video of the triple balance probably explains the thousand or so hits shortly after it was posted that got it on the trending list. And several thousand MORE hits.
dj bauch
07-03-2012, 11:27
There are videos of all three Alamo Regional final games on FRC1477 Youtube channel. Unlike the ustream video, the video from 1477 shows the events in round 1 that led up to our 49-point penalty. I've watched it over and over, trying to figure out what I should tell my team not to have done -- but I'm afraid I can't spot the infraction. I just see our robot contact the bar in the center of the court, in between the red alliance bridge and the coopertition bridge after 148 fell off the bridge for the first time. I don't see any attempt to interfere with the balance. The only words I'll be passing along to my team are "great job"!
Again I would like to thank teams 231 and 1477 for picking us for their alliance, and I would like to thank our opponents 148, 922 and 2936 for giving us the most exciting and challenging match we could hope for!
Kevin Sevcik
07-03-2012, 12:43
There are videos of all three Alamo Regional final games on FRC1477 Youtube channel. Unlike the ustream video, the video from 1477 shows the events in round 1 that led up to our 49-point penalty. I've watched it over and over, trying to figure out what I should tell my team not to have done -- but I'm afraid I can't spot the infraction. I just see our robot contact the bar in the center of the court, in between the red alliance bridge and the coopertition bridge after 148 fell off the bridge for the first time. I don't see any attempt to interfere with the balance. The only words I'll be passing along to my team are "great job"!
Again I would like to thank teams 231 and 1477 for picking us for their alliance, and I would like to thank our opponents 148, 922 and 2936 for giving us the most exciting and challenging match we could hope for!LauraHood's video of Finals 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-duuN_FdUZA&feature=plcp&context=C3a6c4f2UDOEgsToPDskJIvuUTQVtIsNk5ScxJm9ma ) It occurs at exactly 1:58 in this video. Or at exactly 2:29 in the FRC1477 video. 457 runs forward and hits the bridge. I suspect it was an honest mistake, and your driver forgot which way forward was, but I was watching from the blue driver's station side of the field and you pretty clearly bumped the bridge, even if it likely had zero effect on the balancing going on at the time.
wireties
07-03-2012, 13:15
LauraHood's video of Finals 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-duuN_FdUZA&feature=plcp&context=C3a6c4f2UDOEgsToPDskJIvuUTQVtIsNk5ScxJm9ma ) It occurs at exactly 1:58 in this video. Or at exactly 2:29 in the FRC1477 video. 457 runs forward and hits the bridge. I suspect it was an honest mistake, and your driver forgot which way forward was, but I was watching from the blue driver's station side of the field and you pretty clearly bumped the bridge, even if it likely had zero effect on the balancing going on at the time.
You can't tell what it actually hit (in the video) but 457 bounced off something. The ref's reaction was pretty quick, it must have been the bridge. Looks like driver error - understandable.
dj bauch
07-03-2012, 14:26
Thanks, Kevin. I see it in Laura Hood's video. From the forward/backward point of view (as with a lot of the robots, there's not much to distinguish our front from our back), it looks like we backed into the bridge.
It took me a couple days, but I finally got my videos off of my camera.
I had a different angle and you can clearly see the robot hit the bridge at about 2 minutes into the video. (http://youtu.be/twF1OOgIu9I)
It would have been an easy mistake for the driver to make.
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