View Full Version : Team Update 2/28/12
Steven Donow
28-02-2012, 17:30
GAME
General Announcements
2012 Foul Process
Congratulations on surviving build season! Just a few things we wanted to remind you about before you head off to your first competition…
Your Head Referee and their Referee staff are here to work with you and ensure that we have consistent, fair play in all matches. If you have any concerns about what happens on the Court, a student player can go to either the red or blue question box at either end of the scoring table. As soon as the Head Ref has a moment, they will talk to them there. One big change this year though, normal Fouls are not up for discussion – Technical-Fouls, cards and general concerns are all open for discussion – just not normal Fouls. We don’t enter or record any details about them, other than their occurrence. This approach is very similar to other sports where basic calls aren’t challengeable.
Recall that this year Fouls will be called and updated in real time. When a Referee sees a Foul committed, they will first raise their flag, point to the offending Robot, and, they will also issue a hand signal (if the Foul is one of the six that we predicted to be the most likely). Those hand signals are how Teams learn what Foul has been called – more details on them can be found under Section 3 - The Game on the Competition Manual section of the FIRST Website. The Referee will then enter the Foul into the scoring system, which will credit the other alliance with points – kind of like a free-throw in basketball or a penalty kick in soccer – only the points are guaranteed in our case – and credited immediately.
All of that means that about fifteen seconds after the buzzer in any Match, the score you see on the screen will be the final score – no more waiting for adjustments. (Issuing of a Yellow or Red Card may take another minute or so to make sure we get the details right, but cards don’t affect the score in the current Match during the Qualification portion of the Tournament.)
Lastly – Rule [G44] says that you cannot be penalized for something your Robot does that was directly caused by the actions of your opponent. It does have an exception though – it doesn’t affect Rule [G28]. Any time an opponent contacts a Robot that touching its Key, Alley or Bridge – it’s a Foul on the opponent – no matter who caused it to happen. So be careful – and provide plenty of breathing room in those areas.
Cutting the Nets
In the tradition of customary Basketball, there will be an opportunity for the winning Alliance and the Chairman’s Award winning team to each cut down one net as a souvenir of the competition and of their success. As the final event during the Awards Ceremony, the drive teams from the winning Alliance will be invited to come onto the Court and join the Chairman’s Award winning team to cut down one net per team. The ceremonies will conclude and the audience will be dismissed as the drive teams make their way to the Court.
One member from each team will be provided with cutters and may cut down one net, one at a time, safely and expeditiously. A ladder may not be used; however those cutting the nets may stand on the Fender.
The net from the Top Basket will be reserved for the Regional Chairman’s Award winning team.
GAME
The Robot
The 2012 FRC Inspection Checklist has been updated to Rev C and is now available under Section 4 - The Robot on the Competition Manual section of the FIRST Website.
I, for one, am incredibly excited that they're letting us cut the nets!
Hm, I guess it won't take up an hour of event staff time after all?
nitneylion452
28-02-2012, 17:34
I'm happy that they added some guidelines for net cutting and made it part of an official ceremony. That'll take care of a lot of the confusion that could have risen. Great update as far as I'm concerned.
akoscielski3
28-02-2012, 17:37
YAY!!!! I am soooo glad that we can cut down the nets :) This would make winning a regional soo much more memorable!
If they are going with basketball traditions, does the winning alliance get to give their drive coaches a gatorade shower? Also, just an FYI towards IRI, since it is considered the "all-star" regional in FIRST I think they should have certain events like the real NBA All-Star game does.
Justin Montois
28-02-2012, 17:37
Yesss!! Cutting the net!
Now just find a way to win an event...
engunneer
28-02-2012, 17:39
Interesting Update. I'm glad the top net is reserved for RCA. It's a much harder item to win!
If they are going with basketball traditions, does the winning alliance get to give their drive coaches a gatorade shower? Also, just an FYI towards IRI, since it is considered the "all-star" regional in FIRST I think they should have certain events like the real NBA All-Star game does.
The gatorade shower is football :p
thefro526
28-02-2012, 17:41
Really excited about this net cutting business.
The gatorade shower is football :p
Its every sport.
flippy147852
28-02-2012, 17:46
Will this also apply to FiM and MAR District events or will this only apply to their respective Championship events?
George A.
28-02-2012, 17:48
Will this also apply to FiM and MAR District events or will this only apply to their respective Championship events?
Well the MAR Districts each have a Winning Alliance and Chairman's...although the MAR championship has 2 Chairman's....so I don't know how that'll work.
Francis-134
28-02-2012, 17:49
Well the MAR Districts each have a Winning Alliance and Chairman's...although the MAR championship has 2 Chairman's....so I don't know how that'll work.
There are two top nets; one blue, one red.
Justin Montois
28-02-2012, 17:51
There are two top nets; one blue, one red.
You just blew my mind!
I'm guessing they will only allow one set to be cut down.
You just blew my mind!
I'm guessing they will only allow one set to be cut down.
Or they are having 2 chairmans winners!!! :eek:
The gatorade shower is football :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8qNvbq_ydg
nahstobor
28-02-2012, 18:03
This is my favorite update
There are two top nets; one blue, one red.
The FiM Championship has three Chairman's winners. But I'm sure one of the teams will graciously give up their right to top net. They are a Chairman's winner after all :D
LeelandS
28-02-2012, 18:45
Yesss!! Cutting the net!
Now just find a way to win an event...
Because 340 is going to have trouble earning the right to get a net, eh Justin? ;)
I love the idea of Cutting the Net. It adds a lot to FRC trying to get mainstream attention by emulating popular traditions, but at the same time, it's a really nice reward for the teams who A) put in the extra effort to represent FIRST (as the Chairman's Award winners), or B) designed and built a truly amazing machine worthy of recognition. It's going to make a great trophy for teams who earn them, as this will likely never be done ever again (unless FIRST ends up liking the idea and adding this to future games).
I'm honestly going to be a bit jealous if my team can't earn a net. It's an amazingly cool thing to be able to do.
It looks like someone at FIRST HQ actually does take a look at Chiefdelphi now and again (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1132720&postcount=1) :yikes:
Justin Montois
28-02-2012, 19:23
Because 340 is going to have trouble earning the right to get a net, eh Justin? ;)
Nothing is a given. My true hope is cutting the net right next to you guys!
LeelandS
28-02-2012, 19:28
Nothing is a given. My true hope is cutting the net right next to you guys!
True. Nothing is a given.
That would be a tremendous honor! I'd love to see 1126 and 340 together on the field again, doing something that may never be done in FIRST again. A fitting continuation to out teams' long-lasting friendship :D Here's to hoping we get the honor!
Justin Montois
28-02-2012, 19:43
True. Nothing is a given.
That would be a tremendous honor! I'd love to see 1126 and 340 together on the field again, doing something that may never be done in FIRST again. A fitting continuation to out teams' long-lasting friendship :D Here's to hoping we get the honor!
Here here!
GCentola
28-02-2012, 19:47
Nothing is a given. My true hope is cutting the net right next to you guys!
That would be awesome! This is definitely a cool tradition, and definitely something worth accomplishing. Especially becasue the Drive Team gets to cut the net!
Of course, Justin, the top net of FLR will be for us ;)
I do wonder, however, what does the alliance that wins Einstein get? Divisional net AND Einstein net? or are they not doing that at CMP?
waialua359
28-02-2012, 20:09
Interesting Update. I'm glad the top net is reserved for RCA. It's a much harder item to win!
I'm guessing that at CMP, since the CA team usually gets to sit on stage to watch Einstein, they'll be able to cut the top net once the alliance champions are crowned.
Tetraman
28-02-2012, 20:13
I can't wait to see FLR finals for this, but even more to see the Divisional Champions at Worlds holding their nets upon entering Einstein. Its going to be amazing.
Grim Tuesday
28-02-2012, 20:22
I dunno guys, we're eyeing the top net too this year at FLR.
GCentola
28-02-2012, 20:24
I dunno guys, we're eyeing the top net too this year at FLR.
Isn't every team at FLR?
Isn't every team at FLR?
I think even we're allowed to again.
Sean Raia
28-02-2012, 20:54
Isn't every team at FLR?
It's strange how this thread started talking about FLR.
What a coincidence, Devil Tech is shooting for a net as well :rolleyes: not necessarily the top net, but a net.
Its every sport.
Never ever seen it in anything but out door sports. Can you imagine poring Gatorade on somebody's $100k floor?
Billfred
28-02-2012, 20:56
Called it the day after Kickoff (https://twitter.com/#!/WmLeverette/status/156124810311778304) ;)
For real though, I'm glad this is happening...it's going to be great for those teams that get the opportunity.
waialua359
28-02-2012, 21:02
This season will be as close to emulating the NCAA Final Four March Madness for sure!
PayneTrain
28-02-2012, 21:19
This season will be as close to emulating the NCAA Final Four March Madness for sure!
Wouldn't it be sweet if divisional winners got those massive wood trophies like in the NCAA, but with the FIRST logo?
Alex Cormier
28-02-2012, 21:38
It's strange how this thread started talking about FLR.
What a coincidence, Devil Tech is shooting for a net as well :rolleyes: not necessarily the top net, but a net.
You might win more matches by aiming for the hoop instead of just the net. You will have a better chance at making it in. :p
Chris Hibner
28-02-2012, 23:07
Thank you to FIRST for a great update. Seriously one of the best I've ever seen.
Not only did they decide not to be killjoys and let us cut down the nets, but they put a good stamp on G28/G44. Very happy tonight.
Tyler Olds
28-02-2012, 23:29
Will this also apply to FiM and MAR District events or will this only apply to their respective Championship events?
Per an email that I received about this earlier today: "In an attempt to add “flare” to the end of the FRC events (not Districts), the GDC has decided to borrow a long-standing basketball tournament tradition and allow the Winning Alliance and the CA winner to cut the nets from the baskets at the conclusion of the event."
I am going to assume that the FiM and MAR Championship events will allow you to but not at districts.
Per an email that I received about this earlier today: "In an attempt to add “flare” to the end of the FRC events (not Districts), the GDC has decided to borrow a long-standing basketball tournament tradition and allow the Winning Alliance and the CA winner to cut the nets from the baskets at the conclusion of the event."
I am going to assume that the FiM and MAR Championship events will allow you to but not at districts.I hope the email didn't actually say "flare"... Well, nice to see FIRST actually implementing something cool in response to feedback.
As for the other part of the update, it will be nice to see hand signals during the match... I just hope they're explained well to the teams and the audience. And I hope that there is some kind of review process so that all of the volunteer refs with a couple of days' training can be told if they're doing something wrong...
alectronic
29-02-2012, 01:36
And I hope that there is some kind of review process so that all of the volunteer refs with a couple of days' training can be told if they're doing something wrong...
All key volunteers go through training, and in the case of ref's, they specifically take a test. So you should safely be able to count on consistency and accuracy! (at least in my opinion) I guess we will be able to tell after week 1
All key volunteers go through training, and in the case of ref's, they specifically take a test. So you should safely be able to count on consistency and accuracy! (at least in my opinion) I guess we will be able to tell after week 1Of course, but having refereed intramural sports at my college, things can definitely be different in high-pressure scenarios, and I'm just a little worried that some people might be thrown off by the change in procedure or that new referees might make some mistakes without being noticed.
Wayne Doenges
29-02-2012, 06:39
The cutting down the nets won't work at BMR. We go to another building for the awards ceremony :(
I guess we will have the awrds ceremony in the Armory.
Sean Raia
29-02-2012, 08:51
You might win more matches by aiming for the hoop instead of just the net. You will have a better chance at making it in. :p
Ah clever, I should have chosen my wording better.
We're excited to compete with you guys again this year, Sparx is always a powerful force on the field :cool:
The cutting down the nets won't work at BMR. We go to another building for the awards ceremony :(
I guess we will have the awrds ceremony in the Armory.
I thought the same thing. Perhaps they'll do the net-cutting directly after the win; it always takes some time to get set up for awards anyway. The net-cutting will allow the refs & judges & everybody to get over to Elliott and get ready.
Alan Anderson
29-02-2012, 09:11
The cutting down the nets won't work at BMR. We go to another building for the awards ceremony :(
I guess we will have the awrds ceremony in the Armory.
The net cutting takes place after the awards ceremony, so it could work. But the Boilermaker Regional field crew usually has the field mostly disassembled and packed away by that time, so it probably won't.
Maybe I'm missing it, but could anyone find the details on the foul hand signals?
RufflesRidge
29-02-2012, 09:57
Maybe I'm missing it, but could anyone find the details on the foul hand signals?
The wording they used is goofy, they didn't mean in Section 3, they literally meant under it on the Comp. Manual page on the USFIRST website. Here's the direct link: http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/HandSignals.pdf
http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/HandSignals.pdf (http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/HandSignals.pdf)
Please be kind to your refs. I tried helping ref basketball acouple of times. It is not easy and they will not catch everything and you don't want them too. Every match would end 0-0. They are trained but they are volunteers. Remember it is a game. Have fun.
I'm happy that FIRST will allow a bit of celebration by teams after a hard-won victory.
I think the real-time penalty process is a joke.
Brandon Holley
29-02-2012, 11:19
I think the real-time penalty process is a joke.
I made this point in one of the bumper threads, but I think the stringent requirements on bumpers+numbers doesn't make sense when penalties are not being tracked real time. If we had the bumper issues + tracked penalties, its much more tolerable than what seems like overly constrained rules for no easily recognizable purpose.
-Brando
I think the real-time penalty process is a joke.
I'm not disagreeing with this statement.
I think it's an attempt at becoming more like the sports model FRC is trying to emulate. In basketball, we as spectators know the score immediately after the ball goes through the hoop*. We don't have to wait on the referees conferring on whether the basket counted or not or if they're going to count penalties. Scoring and results are real-time and theoretically more exciting**.
*I know, in professional American football, the officials have to verify all scores. Honestly, this system inhales audibly.
**I know, it's exciting to sit on the edge of seats, waiting for the official score. However, this provides an atmosphere of the scores being dependent on the officials rather than the teams' play.
JaneYoung
29-02-2012, 11:43
I'm happy that FIRST will allow a bit of celebration by teams after a hard-won victory.
Just a wee small comment here. I thought that's what teams have been doing for 20 years. The nets add something extra but the teams have been celebrating their successes since way before the nets found their way into the spotlight.
.02
Jane
P.S. Don't get all Mad at me. :) Travel safe. See you at the Alamo!
I'm not disagreeing with this statement.
I think it's an attempt at becoming more like the sports model FRC is trying to emulate. In basketball, we as spectators know the score immediately after the ball goes through the hoop*. We don't have to wait on the referees conferring on whether the basket counted or not or if they're going to count penalties. Scoring and results are real-time and theoretically more exciting**.
*I know, in professional American football, the officials have to verify all scores. Honestly, this system inhales audibly.
**I know, it's exciting to sit on the edge of seats, waiting for the official score. However, this provides an atmosphere of the scores being dependent on the officials rather than the teams' play.
The bigger problem is that in sports referees have years of experience officiating a game that almost never changes...and they still routinely make brutally wrong calls.
We have a game that nobody has refereed, with volunteer referees, and penalties will be assessed in real time now. I'm really curious how they plan to handle multiple referees signaling the same infraction. It has been very common in the past for more than one ref to see a violation occur and flag it. This is normally resolved after the match when they confer and eliminate the double penalties.
How does this get handled now? Do individual refs signal penalties and then the head ref sorts them out in real time and signals them in to the scorekeeper? Does each ref have a clicker or something that automatically assesses the points?
[edit] I see in the above linked document about hand signals that referees "enter the foul on tablet". What does that mean? tablet like iPad tablet, or tablet of scoring sheets? If the latter, why are they bothering, if fouls will not be tracked after being called?
[edit] I see in the above linked document about hand signals that referees "enter the foul on tablet". What does that mean? tablet like iPad tablet, or tablet of scoring sheets? If the latter, why are they bothering, if fouls will not be tracked after being called?I don't see any harm in answering this. The tablet is a touch screen. We're doing zone reffing, and if we see anything on a border or in someone else's zone, we have wireless microphones to quickly check with the other ref(s). You may see two people signal, but it should be sorted out before it affects the score. We can also subtract (i.e. erase incorrectly entered penalties) quickly via the touchscreen if needed.
If you ask at the driver's meeting, I'm sure your refs would happily cover all this and more.
Mike Martus
29-02-2012, 23:02
Has everyone looked at the PDF of the hand signals for the game?
Eleven slides, eleven penalties, eleven signals dispersed from several referees, at different locations - how will any of us be able to keep up with the action.
The refs will have some tired arms......... Do the refs practice in front of a mirror to get the signals right?
How many different signals are there in Basketball or football?
This will be very interesting. A great subject for a music video.
kjohnson
29-02-2012, 23:18
[edit] I see in the above linked document about hand signals that referees "enter the foul on tablet". What does that mean? tablet like iPad tablet, or tablet of scoring sheets? If the latter, why are they bothering, if fouls will not be tracked after being called?
From the field pictures and documentation I've seen, the referee tablets are the same as the scoring tablets from last season that were placed at each corner of the field.
If Siri is correct (no iPhone joke intended), the Refs having radios is a change from previous years. I'm not sure about all events, but we barely have enough radios for technical personnel, pit admin, queuing, and other event staff. Even when using a zone system and hand signals, I still wonder how accidental double fouls will be avoided.
Has everyone looked at the PDF of the hand signals for the game?
Eleven slides, eleven penalties, eleven signals dispersed from several referees, at different locations - how will any of us be able to keep up with the action.
[...]
How many different signals are there in Basketball or football?
For football, there are more than 11. (Offside, false start, personal foul, incomplete, catch, touchdown, safety, holding, facemask, out of bounds when catching, roughing, clock run, delay of game, and the down calls are the ones I can think of.)
Has everyone looked at the PDF of the hand signals for the game?
Eleven slides, eleven penalties, eleven signals dispersed from several referees, at different locations - how will any of us be able to keep up with the action.
The refs will have some tired arms......... Do the refs practice in front of a mirror to get the signals right?
How many different signals are there in Basketball or football?
This will be very interesting. A great subject for a music video.Note that only seven of the signals are actually new, and some of those will be quite rare (being too tall, crossing over the line...) I don't think it will be a problem, especially if you compare it to many sports. I definitely think they should provide a version of that in the program and in the one-page game summary...
Jon Stratis
01-03-2012, 01:44
Just a wee small comment here. I thought that's what teams have been doing for 20 years. The nets add something extra but the teams have been celebrating their successes since way before the nets found their way into the spotlight.
.02
Jane
P.S. Don't get all Mad at me. :) Travel safe. See you at the Alamo!
+1
Our team won our first regional championship last year. We put together a team dinner that evening in order to celebrate (as opposed to waiting until our end-of-season dinner), and we specifically had a chance to highlight what got us there, and how the team had evolved since its founding. Personally, I think that sort of celebration is worth more than any net cutting.
At work, we have a system of performance reviews. It gives us, as individuals, a chance to recognize what we do well, and what we need to improve upon. Even if you are the best at what you do, you always have room to improve (if you don't, your employer doesn't have room to give you raises).
Even if you aren't out cutting the net, make sure you take the time, as a team, to recognize what went well this season, and what you want to make sure continues on through next season!
MagiChau
01-03-2012, 06:39
Has everyone looked at the PDF of the hand signals for the game?
Eleven slides, eleven penalties, eleven signals dispersed from several referees, at different locations - how will any of us be able to keep up with the action.
The refs will have some tired arms......... Do the refs practice in front of a mirror to get the signals right?
How many different signals are there in Basketball or football?
This will be very interesting. A great subject for a music video.
Two of the slides deal with red & yellow card.
Two of the slides deal with pinning, the countdown.
Slide for any of the fouls without a signal being called is just pointing.
Slide for technical foul adds a cross after calling the foul.
One signal is for autonomous crossing into the other side, not too hard to miss.
I kind of doubt robots will exceed the 60" on the opponent's scoring side of the field and the signal makes sense, ref patting his head for height.
One signal is for the safety foul.
Probably the G22 and G28 and G27 signals are the ones that have to be known. Not too much craziness to look out for in hte number of penalties.
pfreivald
01-03-2012, 08:26
Isn't every team at FLR?
No -- we're going for cutting down two nets. :D
Brandon Holley
01-03-2012, 09:09
For football, there are more than 11. (Offside, false start, personal foul, incomplete, catch, touchdown, safety, holding, facemask, out of bounds when catching, roughing, clock run, delay of game, and the down calls are the ones I can think of.)
Those signals are not being called simultaneously. They are also not being called during play, which means both sides have a chance to see the call. In the case of a penalty caused by a specific player (offside, facemask, holding, etc) they also specify which player did it...
-Brando
Perhaps each alliance can appoint a Human Player to watch the refs and let teams know when fouls have been called.
JohnBoucher
01-03-2012, 10:00
I hope the post-match questions box is still available
I hope the post-match questions box is still available
From the update:
If you have any concerns about what happens on the Court, a student player can go to either the red or blue question box at either end of the scoring table. As soon as the Head Ref has a moment, they will talk to them there. One big change this year though, normal Fouls are not up for discussion – Technical-Fouls, cards and general concerns are all open for discussion – just not normal Fouls.
EricLeifermann
01-03-2012, 10:15
From the update:
There is a difference between a discussion and asking what the foul was. I think the Head ref will allow teams to ask what the foul was as long as they are not trying to get it over turned....
kjohnson
01-03-2012, 11:16
There is a difference between a discussion and asking what the foul was. I think the Head ref will allow teams to ask what the foul was as long as they are not trying to get it over turned....
The Head Ref may not know what Foul was called considering only Technical Fouls are actually being tracked. It will be up to the teams/spectators to watch the Ref's hand signals to determine regular Fouls. I'm not saying the Head Ref absolutely won't know what the foul was, but I wouldn't plan on them being able to tell you specifics.
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