View Full Version : 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East
GTR east is next week so I was wondering, who's coming?
Feroz1325
04-03-2012, 15:35
Team 1325 will be bringing Phambot to the GTR east regional! Good luck to all teams. :]
biancs15
04-03-2012, 16:47
Team 610 will be attending GTR East next week. We are looking forward to competing !!!
basicxman
04-03-2012, 17:24
2200 will be there webcasting, however not competing. Good luck teams, see you all there!
Bjenks548
04-03-2012, 20:22
548 is ready to cross the boarder and for some tough Canada competition. I think were the only non-Canadian team there! Just because were from outta town don't count us out!
Gaurav27
04-03-2012, 22:07
Team 1241 will be competing at the Greater Toronto East Regional next week. Good luck to all teams attending! :)
Vince lau
04-03-2012, 22:21
548 is ready to cross the boarder and for some tough Canada competition. I think were the only non-Canadian team there! Just because were from outta town don't count us out!
Welcome to Toronto, you guys will have a blast.
Welcome to Toronto, you guys will have a blast.
He's not wrong :cool:
Bjenks548
07-03-2012, 23:25
Anyone know where the webcast will be for this event?
Anyone know where the webcast will be for this event?
http://www.theredalliance.com/
Every week 2 regional and district event should be there.
Good luck to all teams participating, and I better get some sleep now for the big day, my first FIRST regional!!!
basicxman
07-03-2012, 23:40
Anyone know where the webcast will be for this event?
I'm webcasting it with my mentor, it will be on http://watchfirstnow.com starting Friday.
I'm super excited to watch this from Kansas. The team stack up is HUGE, and I'm just as antsy to see Simbotics as the next FIRST-aholic
*Ahem* You mean welcome to Oshawa!
Although none of my teams are going, as a UOIT grad I'll definitely be there cheering on some favorites. I pushed (more like harassed) the UOIT administration all through university to get them to host a regional so I'm not missing this! (unless one of my teams needs my help... *gives evil eye*) I hope to make it for part of the day Friday if I can get off work early and set some land-speed records from London, if not, definitely for Saturday!
Anybody know when GTR East will start webcasting? They've currently got Match 003 on loop and I've analyzed it as much as humanly possible.
Anybody know when GTR East will start webcasting? They've currently got Match 003 on loop and I've analyzed it as much as humanly possible.
Go to the alternate GTR-East stream on WatchFirstNow.com. The original got taken down by ustream, presumably for restreaming the DJ content.
Go to the alternate GTR-East stream on WatchFirstNow.com. The original got taken down by ustream, presumably for restreaming the DJ content.
Thank you. I've been using MadStream from Team 1323. I like the scale it does and watchfirstnow was being mean to me and overlapping and other problems.
Pjohn1959
09-03-2012, 10:47
Same thing on that website.
ON GTR EAST is back up on watchfirstnow.com (http://www.watchfirstnow.com) you will have to refresh the page. We got banned by ustream for copyright infringement.
We have removed the music feed from the stream and added a ambient mic to comply with ustreams policies.
Very sorry for the minor down time, We will continue to post archived matches to youtube at
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDB1C34562C633A0E&feature=plcp
AlecMataloni
10-03-2012, 10:45
Okay, I can understand refusal of the coopertition bridge for strategic reasons, but it looked as if there was a team that was (intentionally?) ramming the bridge to prevent another team from getting coopertition points after they were already balanced. I hate using the GP card, but how is that at all Graciously Professional? Obviously the alliance should've made the decision not to balance instead of one member taking it upon themselves to make the balance points void after the decision had already been made.
Chexposito
10-03-2012, 11:56
Okay, I can understand refusal of the coopertition bridge for strategic reasons, but it looked as if there was a team that was (intentionally?) ramming the bridge to prevent another team from getting coopertition points after they were already balanced. I hate using the GP card, but how is that at all Graciously Professional? Obviously the alliance should've made the decision not to balance instead of one member taking it upon themselves to make the balance points void after the decision had already been made.
I agree, I feel like there should be a penalty or rule... Of course if I were a top 8 team the team that wasn't competing graciously and professionally I would scratch them off my pick list.
Ricky Q.
10-03-2012, 12:28
Okay, I can understand refusal of the coopertition bridge for strategic reasons, but it looked as if there was a team that was (intentionally?) ramming the bridge to prevent another team from getting coopertition points after they were already balanced. I hate using the GP card, but how is that at all Graciously Professional? Obviously the alliance should've made the decision not to balance instead of one member taking it upon themselves to make the balance points void after the decision had already been made.
I saw the same thing and couldn't believe it.
If a team on your alliance has chosen to work with a team on the opposing alliance and go for the co-op balance, it is ridiculous to try and intentionally try and de-balance that bridge.
You have the right to say no and not participate, I don't believe you have the right to try and knock robots off the co-op bridge once they have balanced successfully.
If this continues at other events with other top ranked teams, it should be an interesting season.
Pat Fairbank
10-03-2012, 12:38
There's video for the match in question here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_dOhl9YgWU&feature=plcp&context=C405eb89VDvjVQa1PpcFOFFrMEVEWd4P7kYWQIVWyt aKnPovnhhA0%3D).
A lot of (presumably) unintended consequences of the Coopertition Bridge have been manifesting at this regional. It's not pretty.
I have a feeling tuesdays update will address this in the wake of GTRE.
Probably, strategies aimed at debalancing a balanced coop bridhe will be made a red card offence
The robot that targeted the bridge seemed to have been assigned to play defense on 1114, and for most of the match they did it right--get in the way, knock them away from their shooting spot, that sort of thing.
Once 1114 went onto the coopertition bridge, however, they should have backed off. The only thing you can really do there is damage yourself on the bridge, or maybe deny both yourself and your opponent (and your partners) those coopertition points. Maybe if you get really lucky (or unlucky), you get both knocked off and/or damaged--but then you might get into strategies intended to X, and that's risky. Continuing contact like that is not smart.
The blacklist suggestion--well, I probably would, but it wouldn't work on this team. They made it to the top 8.
Is there a direct link to the Ustream address to watch the webcast? Watch First Now and the red alliance isn't working for me.
basicxman
10-03-2012, 13:16
Is there a direct link to the Ustream address to watch the webcast? Watch First Now and the red alliance isn't working for me.
What issues are you having with Watch FIRST Now? In either case,
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/frc-gtr-east
nikeairmancurry
10-03-2012, 13:19
What issues are you having with Watch FIRST Now? In either case,
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/frc-gtr-east
I'm having issues with all three with the feed stopping every few seconds, and it's the only webcast I'm having the issue with.
What issues are you having with Watch FIRST Now? In either case,
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/frc-gtr-east
I am watching on a censored network and the proxy I'm using just completely screw up the sight.
Chickenonastick
10-03-2012, 13:29
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_dOhl9YgWU&feature=plcp&context=C49d49d1VDvjVQa1PpcFOFFrMEVEWd4KDSvw0vZOXo POCJEP6KoJs%3D
If you watch at 2:15, it looks like the red alliance robot that is balancing with 1114 is actually adjusting their robot's position in order to maintain the balance. Very interesting.
basicxman
10-03-2012, 13:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_dOhl9YgWU&feature=plcp&context=C49d49d1VDvjVQa1PpcFOFFrMEVEWd4KDSvw0vZOXo POCJEP6KoJs%3D
If you watch at 2:15, it looks like the red alliance robot that is balancing with 1114 is actually adjusting their robot's position in order to maintain the balance. Very interesting.
I can assure you that from the other side of the field it did not look like that.
akoscielski3
10-03-2012, 13:42
If thy were trying to not let them balance then why wouldnt the robot that is balanced with 1114 just move to makethe bridge not balance??
Regarding the webcast, all three different sights are freezing and skipping on me every few seconds...
nikeairmancurry
10-03-2012, 13:47
TRIPLE!
Chexposito
10-03-2012, 13:48
TRIPLE!
I was getting excited when I saw this happening without a special mechanism
akoscielski3
10-03-2012, 13:48
TRIPLE!
Also Proving that even if you get a triple balance it is not a definite win...
If thy were trying to not let them balance then why wouldnt the robot that is balanced with 1114 just move to makethe bridge not balance??
In that case, you just don't balance that bridge. I think this was just a "rogue team" move. Great way to end up on blacklists of good teams, with a note of "not a team player".
nikeairmancurry
10-03-2012, 13:49
I was getting excited when I saw this happening without a special mechanism
I think 4107 had there ramp thing, interlocked into 1075.
But that triple still shows just how much they're worth. With the triple, they closed a huge margin and made it a much closer game for them to head out with.
Triple balance just happened in a QF match, watch here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYyrLQlU2gA&feature=plcp&context=C4f26e6cVDvjVQa1PpcFOFFrMEVEWd4KDSvw0vZOXo POCJEP6KoJs%3D
akoscielski3
10-03-2012, 13:51
But that triple still shows just how much they're worth. With the triple, they closed a huge margin and made it a much closer game for them to head out with.
I didnt know you could call 88-52 close....
I didnt know you could call 88-52 close....
Well, closer than the 88-12 it would have been...
Chexposito
10-03-2012, 13:55
I think 4107 had there ramp thing, interlocked into 1075.
Yeah, you can see it here, http://youtu.be/AYyrLQlU2gA?t=1m53s.
I was saying without something like 148 and I beelieve (ha see what i did there?) the killer bee's had something similar, to stabilize the bridge.
nikeairmancurry
10-03-2012, 14:02
Yeah, you can see it here, http://youtu.be/AYyrLQlU2gA?t=1m53s.
I was saying without something like 148 and I beelieve (ha see what i did there?) the killer bee's had something similar, to stabilize the bridge.
67 has something similar to, check it out at the Waterford contest.
Chexposito
10-03-2012, 14:06
67 has something similar to, check it out at the Waterford contest.
Thanks, I didn't see HOT was competing this weekend. Must've missed them when I was looking at the events
nikeairmancurry
10-03-2012, 14:08
Thanks, I didn't see HOT was competing this weekend. Must've missed them when I was looking at the events
http://www.coderedrobotics.com/webcast/Waterford-FIRST-Robotics-District-Competition/
They just pulled off a triple and 103 points.
Chexposito
10-03-2012, 14:12
http://www.coderedrobotics.com/webcast/Waterford-FIRST-Robotics-District-Competition/
They just pulled off a triple and 103 points.
I pulled it up just in time
akoscielski3
10-03-2012, 14:41
wow 1114 and 2056 lost!!!!!!!!!!!????
And Semi Match 1 is a huge upset...wow, matching each other point for point, then pulling away with a balance. Finals here are going to be intense.
basicxman
10-03-2012, 14:42
wow 1114 and 2056 lost!!!!!!!!!!!????
SF 1-1 up on YouTube, just processing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRHGOdjmkAU&list=PLDB1C34562C633A0E&index=72&feature=plpp_video
EDIT: Above YouTube link was changed due to an issue processing.
I saw the same thing and couldn't believe it.
If a team on your alliance has chosen to work with a team on the opposing alliance and go for the co-op balance, it is ridiculous to try and intentionally try and de-balance that bridge.
You have the right to say no and not participate, I don't believe you have the right to try and knock robots off the co-op bridge once they have balanced successfully.
If this continues at other events with other top ranked teams, it should be an interesting season.
This is quite possibly the worst display of sportsmanship I've ever witnessed in FIRST.
Wow, this is a long wait for results! Has to have been 10 minutes... and in the finals, too!
Andrew Lawrence
10-03-2012, 16:01
CONGRATULATIONS to 1114, 2056, and 1219!
Wow, this is a long wait for results! Has to have been 10 minutes... and in the finals, too!
There ought to have been an explanation. The closest I can come up with is they were checking video for a [G25], because it looked like someone came pretty close, but that can't be right under [T13]... Real-time scoring, plus a balanced bridge versus a non-balanced bridge, should have made it pretty obvious who won. (I have no knowledge of what they were doing, other than "reviewing the match".)
There ought to have been an explanation. The closest I can come up with is they were checking video for a [G25], because it looked like someone came pretty close, but that can't be right under [T13]... Real-time scoring, plus a balanced bridge versus a non-balanced bridge, should have made it pretty obvious who won. (I have no knowledge of what they were doing, other than "reviewing the match".)I was thinking something similar. The only think I can think of is that there was contact, the refs discussed but couldn't ultimately agree on whether it was a [G25] or not, and they ultimately called up FIRST to check... And there definitely should have been an immediate explanation. Imagine if there had been a 10-minute review in football or something, and then they never explained what they were reviewing!
I can clear up the delay after F2.
As the MC was finishing the F2 intros, myself and at least one ref, and at least one robot inspector noticed that 1219 had added a tabletop vice and 2 bags of chain to their robot as ballast. They did not report this change to the inspectors, nor did they get reinspected afterward.
The inspection sheet with weights confirmed that they very well could have been overweight during that match.
The delay was while the LRI and several of the event organizers decided what to do about it.
Additionally, there was some debate over whether 2056 touched the blue bridge while the 188/610/3360 alliance was balancing, and how to call it. (techfoul, or techfoul+interfering with balancing)
Personally, I don't like how the calls played out, but I'm not sure the alternative is any better.
I can clear up the delay after F2.
As the MC was finishing the F2 intros, myself and at least one ref, and at least one robot inspector noticed that 1219 had added a tabletop vice and 2 bags of chain to their robot as ballast. They did not report this change to the inspectors, nor did they get reinspected afterward.
The inspection sheet with weights confirmed that they very well could have been overweight during that match.
The delay was while the LRI and several of the event organizers decided what to do about it.
Additionally, there was some debate over whether 2056 touched the blue bridge while the 188/610/3360 alliance was balancing, and how to call it. (techfoul, or techfoul+interfering with balancing)
Personally, I don't like how the calls played out, but I'm not sure the alternative is any better.So was the robot weighed after the match, or what? That should have cleared everything up, and I have no idea why they wouldn't have done that...
I don't remember any technical fouls ultimately being called in that match at all, but I could have been mistaken... are there any replays?
It was not weighed, and the techfoul was not called. Video of F2 should be available on youtube from @WatchFIRSTNow.
I don't know the full details of the decisions beyond that.
basicxman
10-03-2012, 20:06
It was not weighed, and the techfoul was not called. Video of F2 should be available on youtube from @WatchFIRSTNow.
Sure is, all 12 minutes of it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3oejptCKfc&list=UU_TxdRux1SlsDx44QfcClhg&index=1&feature=plcp
IIRC this is the only video YouTube has flagged as not viewable outside of Canada, we're going to get this fixed but for now you're stuck.
As the MC was finishing the F2 intros, myself and at least one ref, and at least one robot inspector noticed that 1219 had added a tabletop vice and 2 bags of chain to their robot as ballast. They did not report this change to the inspectors, nor did they get reinspected afterward.Aside from the possible weight issue, IMO this is a Red Card.
[T03]
A team will only be allowed to participate in a Match and receive Qualification Points only if it has passed Inspection. If it is learned after the start of the Match that a team did not pass Inspection, the team’s entire Alliance will receive a Red Card for that Match.
[T06]
At the time of Inspection, the Robot must be presented with all Mechanisms (including all Components of each Mechanism), configurations, and decorations that will be used on the Robot during the entire competition event. It is acceptable, however, for a Robot to play Matches with a subset of the Mechanisms that were present during Inspection. Only Mechanisms that were present during the Inspection may be added, removed or reconfigured between Matches. If Mechanisms are changed between Matches, the reconfigured Robot must still meet all Inspection criteria.
[T10]
If a Robot is modified after it has passed Inspection, other than modifications described in [T06], that Robot must be re-Inspected.
Aside from the possible weight issue, IMO this is a Red Card.
The question is, how far back does the red card go? If they added it only for that last match, single red card. If it was added during quals, then that messes up all of the rankings. If it's added for elims, then that alliance is out in QFs (or whenever they added it).
It's not as easy as a single red card. That's why it's unclear whether the alternative is any better.
I believe the change was made in semifinals, but I cant corroborate that. I also agree it should have been a red card for red in F2, according to the quoted rules, followed by a reinspection before F3.
I believe it was further complicated by the inspection station having already been packed away.
Bjenks548
10-03-2012, 23:26
Thanks to everyone for opening up their regional to the Americans. Special thanks to 1075 and 4307 for being great alliance partners and having the best lost ever.
Also to answer some questions about the triple we pulled off, 4307 lowered their bridge manipulator into 1075 to hook in. We followed in the back and pushed all 3 robots up the bridge. We were chosen to go last due to our lack of bridge space needed and our low gear. It was a lot of fun to pull this together during lunch.
On behalf of all Robostangs, I just wanted to thank all the teams for showing their Canadian hospitality.
Team 3705
11-03-2012, 05:26
Good match everyone... wish we could have gotten into the quarter finals...We were so close...
Congratulations to Team 1219,2056,and 1114!
I still cannot believe that team 1114 lost :o in that semi match...
EDIT: Our drivers were complaining about how team 1114 was pushing our robot wile we were trying to make some shots....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhnOasQtW5I&t=0m26s
In the future, should our robot try to clear away so that other teams that can shoot... should shoot?
Right now, we dont have a good aiming system...Hopefully that will change at Hershey's...
We tried our best to climb the bridge, at practice we were able to balance our robot. But it seems as if each time we try to balance, our partner or us messes up somehow...
There's video for the match in question here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_dOhl9YgWU&feature=plcp&context=C405eb89VDvjVQa1PpcFOFFrMEVEWd4P7kYWQIVWyt aKnPovnhhA0%3D).
A lot of (presumably) unintended consequences of the Coopertition Bridge have been manifesting at this regional. It's not pretty.
The only thing that will stop that behavior is red cards.
mhat_ios
11-03-2012, 10:03
I can clear up the delay after F2.
As the MC was finishing the F2 intros, myself and at least one ref, and at least one robot inspector noticed that 1219 had added a tabletop vice and 2 bags of chain to their robot as ballast. They did not report this change to the inspectors, nor did they get reinspected afterward.
The inspection sheet with weights confirmed that they very well could have been overweight during that match.
The delay was while the LRI and several of the event organizers decided what to do about it.
Additionally, there was some debate over whether 2056 touched the blue bridge while the 188/610/3360 alliance was balancing, and how to call it. (techfoul, or techfoul+interfering with balancing)
Personally, I don't like how the calls played out, but I'm not sure the alternative is any better.
Actually, on the field, we did not know about the weight of 1219. That is not what we were questioning the referees about. However, I saw Steve Warren, the lead robot inspector, talking with the head ref a lot, so I am sure that it was part of the discussion. After the match, several people on our alliance drive teams thought that 2056 hit our alliance bridge. We looked at a video that a teammate took, and it appeared as if 2056 might have hit the 610/188/3360 bridge as they were preparing to balance. (NOT accusing them) If you recall the Alamo Regional, that would have been a 49 point penalty, and a match DQ. We tried to show the video to the referees, but they did not accept our video. As human player, I saw the head referee looking right at 2056, and I was watching them as well. If the head referee did not call it, since he was watching, I respect the call, or lack there of. We had a hard fought, exciting finals. Lots of fun. Congrats to 1114, 2056, and 1219 for a great played finals, and tournament, and for taking home the gold.
-Michael
A couple of questions:
* What was the official reason for replaying QF 3-2? The youtube posts show the "we mis-scored a basket" reason for the change in the score of the original match, but why replay? I'm guessing it was a "we would have tried to score more if we'd known we were actually behind" protest, but I'm curious if that was it or not.
* What's connecting the two arms of 188's appendage once it's outside of the frame perimeter? The video isn't clear enough for me to tell.
Aidan S.
11-03-2012, 10:59
A couple of questions:
* What was the official reason for replaying QF 3-2? The youtube posts show the "we mis-scored a basket" reason for the change in the score of the original match, but why replay? I'm guessing it was a "we would have tried to score more if we'd known we were actually behind" protest, but I'm curious if that was it or not.
* What's connecting the two arms of 188's appendage once it's outside of the frame perimeter? The video isn't clear enough for me to tell.
The offical reason that QF 3-2 was replayed was that all three members of our alliance (610, 188, 3360) had experienced errors with our controls, causing a significant lag time between when we gave the robot a command to when it responded (about three seconds). That made it very difficult for us to make shots and impossible to balance. The referees thought that the best course of action was to replay the match.
188's appendage was connected by a retractable wire that would pull itself tight when outside the frame perimeter.
The offical reason that QF 3-2 was replayed was that all three members of our alliance (610, 188, 3360) had experienced errors with our controls, causing a significant lag time between when we gave the robot a command to when it responded (about three seconds). That made it very difficult for us to make shots and impossible to balance. The referees thought that the best course of action was to replay the match.
Not that that needed to happen... but the refs' call is final, eh?
Shankar M
11-03-2012, 11:36
QF 3-2 was replayed because a ball, that had been jammed in the chute, was unintentionally re-entered back onto the field as a volunteer attempted to free the jam. Such an event calls for a replay - our alliance had no issues with this. (All three teams on the alliance did in fact experience lag, but I do not believe that this was the reason for the replay.)
I think this weekend was interesting to say the least. The intentions of the teams at the event were very clear all regional long which made the feat of 1114 seeding first all the more impressive. Regardless of what transpired, 1114, 2056, and 1219 pulled off a regional win and I congratulate them for their performance.
Irrespective of whether [T03 (http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/viewItem/58#5.5.2)] or [G25 (http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/viewItem/56#3.1.4)] should have been called, had our alliance been able to execute on the match plan that we had run for three consecutive matches prior to the finals, whether the calls were made or not would have been moot. That said, I want to take nothing away from our fantastic partners: 610 (we both know that the time is nigh for us to walk away with a regional win) and 3360 - you were a pleasure to work with!
I think that the events that transpired this weekend have exposed some of the intrinsic flaws built into this game owing to the GDC's decision to include an element of "coopetition." I'm intrigued to see how the rest of the competition season plays out.
[T03]
A team will only be allowed to participate in a Match and receive Qualification Points only if it has passed Inspection. If it is learned after the start of the Match that a team did not pass Inspection, the team’s entire Alliance will receive a Red Card for that Match.
Please take note of this rule. It is important that FRC teams make sure their Alliance partners have passed Inspection. Allowing a partner that has not passed Inspection to play with you puts you at risk of disqualification. We recommend that you check check with your Alliance partners early and help them to pass Inspection before your compete together.
[G25]
Robots may not contact or otherwise interfere with the opposing Alliance Bridge.
Violation: Technical-Foul. If the act of Balancing is interfered with, also a Red Card and the Bridge will be counted as Balanced with the maximum number of Robots possible for that Match.
Holtzman
11-03-2012, 12:37
I wish I would say we had an amazing time at the GTR East regional, but that is simply not the case.
From an event stand point, it was very well run. The ref's, FTA,FTAA, Field Crew, Announcer, MC, Queing, and Pit Admin were all spot on.
However, the conduct of a few select teams have tarnished this event. Throughout the course of the event, we heard increasingly disturbing remarks from multiple teams.
We had numerous partners tell us that they had been approached by a team, and asked to intentionally take fouls and cause us to lose.
We had our opponents approach us, and tell us that they had been told not to coopertate with us by their partners, and if they tried, their partners would block the bridge, and that the entire regional would be mad at them if they did coopertate with us.
We had a team come to us late on Saturday and explain that they had been blocked from their own alliance bridge by their partner, so that they would lose a match that directly affected the top of the standings.
This is not the FIRST we know and love. The actions we saw from certain teams at this event were despicable, and defy Gracious Professionalism in every way. To see actions like this, especially from well-respected veteran teams was simply astonishing. I don't even know how we got to this point. I understand wanting to win, and doing everything within reason to win, but what we saw this weekend was over the line.
I'd like to thank teams (This list obviously isn't full inclusive, just the teams who talked us about the specific issues.) 188, 548, 781, 865 ,1114, 1219, 1241, 1547, 2852, and 3386 who rose above the garbage, and competed with honestly and integrity. It seems to be in short supply these days.
I wish I would say we had an amazing time at the GTR East regional, but that is simply not the case.
From an event stand point, it was very well run. The ref's, FTA,FTAA, Field Crew, Announcer, MC, Queing, and Pit Admin were all spot on.
However, the conduct of a few select teams have tarnished this event. Throughout the course of the event, we heard increasingly disturbing remarks from teams at the event.
We numerous partners tell us that they had been approached by a team, and asked to intentionally take fouls and cause us to loose.
We had our opponents approach us, and tell us that they had been told not to coopertate with us by their partners, and if they tried, their partners would block the bridge, and that the entire regional would be mad at them if they did coopertate with us.
We had a team come to us late on Saturday and explain that they had been blocked from their own alliance bridge by their partner, so that they would loose a match that directly affected the top of the standings.
This is not the FIRST we know and love. The actions we saw from certain teams at this event were despicable, and defy Gracious Professionalism in every way. To see actions like this, especially from well-respected veteran teams was simply astonishing. I don't even know how we got to this point. I understand wanting to win, and doing everything within reason to win, but what we saw this weekend was over the line.
I'd like to thank teams (This list obviously isn't full inclusive, just the teams who talked us about the specific issues.) 188, 548, 781, 865 ,1114, 1219, 1241, 1547, 2852, and 3386 who rose above the garbage, and competed with honestly and integrity. It seems to be in short supply these days.
I had heard rumor of this occurring and if that is the case then FIRST needs to step in and put a stop to this kind of behavior immediately. It's unacceptable , period.
JaneYoung
11-03-2012, 13:03
I think that the events that transpired this weekend have exposed some of the intrinsic flaws built into this game owing to the GDC's decision to include an element of "coopetition." I'm intrigued to see how the rest of the competition season plays out.
Does the element of Coopertition create intrinsic flaws or does it create golden opportunities?
FRC continually raises the bar for the participants to make choices and decisions that require honesty and integrity. Yes, the GDC can come in and address what happened, curtailing these ugly behaviors/decisions. It's a shame that they would have to. In my opinion, it slows down the whole culture changing process and, in some cases, bogs it way down. It's good to know that so many teams rose above the garbage and competed with honesty and integrity, keeping it classy.
Jane
I would like to share my thoughts and experiences from the GTR-E regional in thorough detail here on CD.
It will take me some time to process everything that has happened, and so I cannot post immediately.
However, it was no secret that I spoke with teams throughout the tournament about the rules governing coopertition points, and how they could affect the rankings.
There is certainly far more to the GTR-E coopertition points story than what can be seen on a webcast, read on CD or witnessed from the stands.
At this time, I ask you to be patient, and to keep the speculation and hearsay to a minimum. Many people have heard one person say another person has said or done this or that.
What I can say is that I know what I said and did, and will share that experience with you shortly.
Sean Raia
11-03-2012, 13:26
I had heard rumor of this occurring and if that is the case then FIRST needs to step in and put a stop to this kind of behavior immediately. It's unacceptable , period.
Should FIRST really step in on this?
I think every team that doesn't compete with integrity is putting themselves on the chopping block. I think FRC teams as a whole can govern this situation well enough...
You can't pretend sketchy practices such as this don't happen in the real world. We should learn how to be better people and work past them.
Should FIRST really step in on this?
I think every team that doesn't compete with integrity is putting themselves on the chopping block. I think FRC teams as a whole can govern this situation well enough...
You can't pretend sketchy practices such as this don't happen in the real world. We should learn how to be better people and work past them.
I'm not sure if FIRST teams instituting "Frontier Justice" upon one another is the culture change Dean was looking for.
Sean Raia
11-03-2012, 13:37
I'm not sure if FIRST teams instituting "Frontier Justice" upon one another is the culture change Dean was looking for.
I would think of it as more of a self-governing system.
It's about being graciously professional without a rule stating that we must be.
We had our opponents approach us, and tell us that they had been told not to coopertate with us by their partners, and if they tried, their partners would block the bridge, and that the entire regional would be mad at them if they did coopertate with us.
Honestly, I'm not sure that the "don't coopertete with 1114/2056" strategy is that objectionable. Both 1114 and 2056 have excellent robots. If a team sees that by not cooperteting with them, they can cause a situation where they get split up for eliminations and thus weaken the powerhouse alliances in finals, it would be sub-optimal if they chose not to take that strategy. The team that was actually ramming the bridge to void 1114's CP points certainly crossed a line, but to say that the overall strategy of not cooperteting is morally wrong is vastly overstating it.
Example: In 1114's final match, 2852 chose to coopertete with them, which clinched the #1 seed for 1114. If they hadn't done that, 610 would have seeded first, split up the powerhouse 1114/2056 pairing, and finals would have been very different. 2852 had the power to make a decision either way, and they chose one way. Had they chosen to just camp on the threshold of the bridge, thus deciding the seeding for the regional in a different way, I'd hope nobody would think any less of them.
Maybe people were making non-GP comments this weekend that crossed the line, but I think making rational decisions about optimizing a team's chances of winning the competition overall shouldn't be anything to be ashamed of.
Note: I'm not defending any of the dirtier things that may have occurred (attempts to throw matches, ramming bridges, directing ire at top teams, etc), but I'm saying that a strategic level, sacrificing your alliance's own CP points because of a long-term strategy on the seeding table shouldn't be outlawed, and teams that pursue that strategy in a GP manner shouldn't be shunned.
Maybe there could be a code of conduct for CP-strategizing:
-Don't coerce your alliance members into not doing the bridge. If they want/need the points, let them go for it
-Don't try to unscore or block the CP bridge if an alliance member wants to do it
-Don't throw matches (although throwing matches, if it is actually occurring, would have been a problem in past years too)
.
Example: In 1114's final match, 2852 chose to coopertete with them, which clinched the #1 seed for 1114. If they hadn't done that, 610 would have seeded first, split up the powerhouse 1114/2056 pairing, and finals would have been very different. 2852 had the power to make a decision either way, and they chose one way. Had they chosen to just camp on the threshold of the bridge, thus deciding the seeding for the regional in a different way, I'd hope nobody would think any less of them.
2852 would be borderline insane to have chosen to do that. It was the difference between them being an alliance captain and not seeding.
There are so few cases as to where it's plausible to not cooperate that it's almost not worth mentioning.
Apparently the only reason at GTR is malice, because the lengths certain teams have apparently gone to to spite 1114 and 2056 are ridiculous.
Chexposito
11-03-2012, 15:32
I'm not sure if FIRST teams instituting "Frontier Justice" upon one another is the culture change Dean was looking for.
I agree. Also, did any team that was approached report the incidents to the judges? I think that is something that the judges should know about. I'm glad that there were teams that took the high road and decided that being graciously professional was more important than targeting teams.
I would just like to say to the teams that are ungraciously targeting teams for being successful historically and currently. Imagine being in the shoes of the members on those teams, just because your team does well, and has a history of doing well, people are downright rude and inconsiderate to you, even though you did nothing to them personally. How would you like it? I don't imagine you would.
2852 would be borderline insane to have chosen to do that. It was the difference between them being an alliance captain and not seeding.
I respectively disagree - 2852 was an extremely good robot (they had the highest OPR once the top 3 seeds of 610/1114/2056 were accounted for), and could be certain to get picked very early. There would have been 2-3 alliances (depends on whether 1114 or 2056 accepted 610's invite) with very strong captain robots in the 1st 3 spots: 610, 1114, and 2056. Surely one of those teams would have invited 2852, and they would have ended up on a very powerful alliance with a great chance at an overall victory.
Related: Here's the final OPRs after qualifications for GTR-east:
0 OPR 2056 38.1207
1 OPR 1114 27.1704
2 OPR 610 22.53
3 OPR 2852 22.2304
4 OPR 907 18.4266
5 OPR 188 17.9194
6 OPR 4334 17.3855
7 OPR 1241 16.8836
8 OPR 2626 13.7548
9 OPR 548 12.4619
10 OPR 2185 11.599
11 OPR 1547 9.02688
12 OPR 3386 8.63664
13 OPR 4252 8.06852
14 OPR 1219 7.69893
15 OPR 781 6.99094
16 OPR 3387 6.14863
17 OPR 2198 5.79157
18 OPR 1404 5.5336
19 OPR 2994 5.29717
20 OPR 2625 5.19636
21 OPR 4307 5.05267
22 OPR 1815 4.98423
23 OPR 2809 4.34489
24 OPR 1075 4.00574
25 OPR 1246 3.62352
26 OPR 3705 3.31858
27 OPR 3117 3.24853
28 OPR 865 2.61379
29 OPR 3550 1.50749
30 OPR 4248 0.9201
31 OPR 3360 0.488284
32 OPR 1325 -0.62812
33 OPR 1221 -1.69833
34 OPR 3988 -1.95951
35 OPR 3985 -2.12646
I respectively disagree - 2852 was an extremely good robot (they had the highest OPR once the top 3 seeds of 610/1114/2056 were accounted for), and could be certain to get picked very early. There would have been 2-3 alliances (depends on whether 1114 or 2056 accepted 610's invite) with very strong captain robots in the 1st 3 spots: 610, 1114, and 2056. Surely one of those teams would have invited 2852, and they would have ended up on a very powerful alliance with a great chance at an overall victory.
Unless I'm reading the box score wrong, 2852 ended up captaining their alliance...so if a handful of teams passed on them after 2056 and 188 went off the board, why would that not necessarily be the same deal if 610 had seeded first?
Same outcome, different order. 610 picks 1114 or 2056, the other picks 188, the alliances are just split. A team like 2852 could still be left in a precarious position if not in control of their own destiny.
Holtzman
11-03-2012, 15:52
We have no objections with a team choosing not to coopertate with us for strategic reasons. For example, Team 188 chose not to coopertate with us in our last qualifying match. We then approached their partner, team 2626, who agreed to coopertate with us. While the attempt was ultimately unsuccessful, team 188 made no attempts persuade team 2626 not to, or made any attempts to block or otherwise interfere with our attempted coopertition balance. I can't make that statement for all of our matches though.
What I do have a problem with, is a team actively trying to sabotage the success of another on or off the field.
This could include manipulating another team into taking actions they would not normally commit. This could include manipulating a team into taking actions that would hurt their own alliance partners. This could include saying you will coopertate, then not show up at all. This could include saying you will coopertate, agreeing on a time to be at the bridge, and then continuing to score baskets and showing up late to coopertate. This could include intentionally loosing so that a member of the opposing alliance is guaranteed a win. This could include influencing the outcome of matches you aren’t even playing in for your own selfish gain.
I have no problem with playing to win, but playing to make someone lose?
Honestly, I'm not sure that the "don't coopertete with 1114/2056" strategy is that objectionable. Both 1114 and 2056 have excellent robots. If a team sees that by not cooperteting with them, they can cause a situation where they get split up for eliminations and thus weaken the powerhouse alliances in finals, it would be sub-optimal if they chose not to take that strategy. The team that was actually ramming the bridge to void 1114's CP points certainly crossed a line, but to say that the overall strategy of not cooperteting is morally wrong is vastly overstating it.
Unless I'm reading the box score wrong, 2852 ended up captaining their alliance...so if a handful of teams passed on them after 2056 and 188 went off the board, why would that not necessarily be the same deal if 610 had seeded first?
Same outcome, different order. 610 picks 1114 or 2056, the other picks 188, the alliances are just split. A team like 2852 could still be left in a precarious position if not in control of their own destiny.
If I remember correctly, they declined 1815's selection, and thus weren't available for other alliances to pick. I agree it would be precarious, but a scenario where 1114 and 2056 are on the same alliance isn't precarious at all: it has historically been a lock they'll win.
Even in your scenario, they would have been picked (remember, it was only a 36-robot regional and by at least one measure they were the 4th-best robot there), possibly right around the 6th alliance where they ended up, but they would have been playing in an elimination scenario where the talent is slightly less concentrated, and thus the best alliance is much more beatable.
Chris Fultz
11-03-2012, 16:15
Anytime a team or alliance does not play to their potential they are damaging the rest of their team and all of the other teams at the event. Choosing to "not" cooperate with any one team also means "not" cooperating with their two alliance partners for that match, so it impacts the ranking and seeding throughout the team list.
Teams are risking damage to their own reputation and that of their sponsors.
The only valid reason I know to "not" cooperate with any team is if you need to continue other play (shooting or going to your own bridge) to secure the win.
I personally side with Bongle on this one. As questionable as the strategy is, for a 2nd tier robot to have a snowballs chance of winning in Canada, splitting up 1114/2056 is not just a good idea, its all but required.
It became apparent at the end of the day on Friday that there was a very real possibility of that occurring, and the coopertition bridge makes ensuring it alot easier than in past years, barring moves like intentionally throwing matches.
Its a question of who you're cooperating with.
The offical reason that QF 3-2 was replayed was that all three members of our alliance (610, 188, 3360) had experienced errors with our controls, causing a significant lag time between when we gave the robot a command to when it responded (about three seconds). That made it very difficult for us to make shots and impossible to balance. The referees thought that the best course of action was to replay the match.
188's appendage was connected by a retractable wire that would pull itself tight when outside the frame perimeter.
It was actually a problem with all six robots on the field. Every robot suffered the same connection issue (with the field).
The ball accidentally being scored just happened to happen the same match, it was not the reasoning for the replayed match
Unless I'm reading the box score wrong, 2852 ended up captaining their alliance...so if a handful of teams passed on them after 2056 and 188 went off the board, why would that not necessarily be the same deal if 610 had seeded first?
Same outcome, different order. 610 picks 1114 or 2056, the other picks 188, the alliances are just split. A team like 2852 could still be left in a precarious position if not in control of their own destiny.
Also, due to the days events, 1114 and 2056 probably both would have declined 610.
cool breeze
11-03-2012, 17:50
Example: In 1114's final match, 2852 chose to coopertete with them, which clinched the #1 seed for 1114. If they hadn't done that, 610 would have seeded first, split up the powerhouse 1114/2056 pairing, and finals would have been very different.
I may be in the minority but I really don't care for the way the top 8 seeded teams are allowed to pick teams in the top 8. I really liked it the way it was.
Geoff1114
11-03-2012, 18:06
I'd like to take the opportunity to speak on behalf of 1114 and to add to what's been stated already by Tyler and 2056.
First we'd like to thank 2056 and 1219 for being tremendous alliance partners and to thank the volunteers and Regional Planning Committee for a well-run event. Additionally, we echo the sentiments of 2056 and thank those teams mentioned specifically by Tyler. Unfortunately, the actions of a few teams convincing other teams to not attempt to receive co-opertition points when playing in matches with 1114 and 2056 marred an otherwise fun event.
To add to the ongoing discussion, I agree with Tyler and Bongle that choosing not to co-opertate is a valid strategy, however, as Cory stated, there are very few occasions where I can see this as being beneficial to a team. The larger concern for us was that there were teams convincing other alliances that it was in their best interest to not co-opertate when that simply wasn't the case. One situation we encountered when discussing co-opertating with another team they told us their alliance would not allow them to attempt the bridge and that "it was best for the regional" to not perform this way. This team considered themselves a second round pick and wanted to demonstrate their ability to get on the bridge with us, however, we found out after the match that they were told if they tried to get on the bridge that another team would hold the bridge down or knock them off. The team who wanted to co-opertate approached us after the match asking to show their ability to get on the bridge with us on the practice field because they had wanted to show that all along. This doesn't sound like an instance when it was in that team's best interest to choose not to, they were simply bullied and coerced into doing what benefitted someone else.
We also heard from a rookie team that they were told if they were to balance with 2056 that every team at this regional would be mad at them and it wasn't the way they wanted to start off in FIRST. It's not fair to a rookie team that a situation like this occurs where they feel pressured to perform in a way other than what they want simply out of fear of being ostracized.
Obviously these stories are second hand, but the actions we witnessed on Friday and Saturday made it very clear these types of discussions were ongoing before all of our later matches and other incidents were directly witnessed by members of 1114 and 2056. All of this culminated in match 53, as discussed previously in this thread, when Team 2185 intentionally rammed the co-opertition bridge in an effort to unbalance the bridge and take away the co-opertition points from every team in that match. The team's lead mentor later acknowledged that this act was intentional and has apologized. His drive team disobeyed him and was acting under the instructions from other coaches. We'd like to thank 1219 for their attempts in co-opertating with us in this match despite intense pressure from other teams. This did no go unnoticed by 1114 and 2056 and was definitely a huge factor in our decision to select you for our alliance.
Regarding the discussions about whether 2852 should have chosen to co-opertate with us, we can look at how things might have gone without them receiving two co-opertition points in that match. If 610 seeded first and selected 1114 or 2056 and IF that team decided to accept, the remaining likely would have selected 188 based on how the picking occurred on Saturday afternoon. That leaves 1815 as the third alliance captain in a picking position to select 2852, only this time they wouldn't have been in a top 8 position able to decline. If we've decided to use "OPR" as a proxy for robot value, then 2852 would be forced to compete with the 22nd best robot in the competition as opposed to the 6th best robot as they were able to do by co-opertating. Obviously there are assumptions built into this hypothetical situation, but it simply demonstrates the risk any team puts upon themselves if they choose not to use the co-opertition bridge, thereby knocking themselves out of the top 8. Team 1114 would like to extend a thank you to 2852 (in addition to those mentioned by Tyler) for being able to rise above the spitefulness being shown at this event and choosing to play the game as it was designed.
However, to address what was stated by 1075guy above, 1114 definitely would have declined had 610 attempted to select us. Their robot was fantastic throughout the weekend, but due to the weekend's events, 1114 did not feel it was right to compete alongside a team who would act in such a way.
To the teams that were trying to turn the regional against 2056 and 1114, I hope these actions don't continue at any other events you attend this year. To the teams who were convinced by those teams to do what you did, I hope you will be able to see from the discussion on this thread that you will not by any means be hated for your actions and I hope that you will be able to make your own decisions for what's best for your team, sponsors and school going forward.
I may be in the minority but I really don't care for the way the top 8 seeded teams are allowed to pick teams in the top 8. I really liked it the way it was.
It was tried with top 8 not allowed to pick within the top 8. There were allegations of teams throwing matches to get out of the top 8 to get into a particular alliance. This lasted maybe one season. (I also recall something about there being a season where your first partner was assigned to you; my recall is very fuzzy on that.)
I'll take the lesser of two evils here. This year, the power gap between #1 and #8 alliances is much narrowed; I hope the GDC keeps something like this in future games.
Grim Tuesday
11-03-2012, 18:42
Reading this thread, I am astounded that a team would even consider ramming the coopertition bridge. An act like that, even if not done to our team, would earn a spot on our blacklist for years to come.
If any team is considering refusing to balance with a team on the Co-Op bridge, I would urge them to think of the ramifications for the future, not only at the competition, but for the entire image for your team.
If any team is considering refusing to balance with a team on the Co-Op bridge, I would urge them to think of the ramifications for the future, not only at the competition, but for the entire image for your team.But if you're going to refuse, then say upfront that you're going to refuse, and please don't try to prevent others from going for it. (Convincing with words... well, depends on the words. Some of the examples mentioned in this thread are borderline or not good. Others words can be used pretty well.)
And yes, a team did ram the center bridge at GTR East while teams were balancing. I saw it on the webcast. I'm hoping that that can be addressed in the next update to be a minimum of a T-foul.
But if you're going to refuse, then say upfront that you're going to refuse, and please don't try to prevent others from going for it. (Convincing with words... well, depends on the words. Some of the examples mentioned in this thread are borderline or not good. Others words can be used pretty well.)
And yes, a team did ram the center bridge at GTR East while teams were balancing. I saw it on the webcast. I'm hoping that that can be addressed in the next update to be a minimum of a T-foul.
Video relink (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_dOhl9YgWU&feature=plcp&context=C405eb89VDvjVQa1PpcFOFFrMEVEWd4P7kYWQIVWyt aKnPovnhhA0%3D)
I understand why much of the discussion regarding this regional surrounds the Coopertition Bridge, I find it surprising that there is not more concern (to put it mildly) that a robot that made major alterations was allowed to compete in the eliminations without re-inspection.
Either the inspection process is important, or it is just for show. Many teams loose opportunity to even participate in matches because they do not pass inspection - they spend hours at events trying to make weight or change their dimensions so they fit in the box. Out of respect for these teams, we need to make sure that these rules are applied evenly throughout the event.
If you make changes to your robot after inspection, you need to be reinspected. To do otherwise is the same as using an illegal motor, working outside of the Build Season, re-using mechanisms from previous years, or any other FRC rule.
So, how do we make sure this does not happen in the future? I think one major way is for all veteran teams to share their appropriate attitudes with other teams. Establishing a "this is the way we do it - to keep everything fair" culture will help teams comply with all of the rules.
Also, having an inspector watching matches can help. This is especially helpful for the "not harming the game pieces or field" rules. (In LA last year, we had an inspector watching robots that seemed to be popping game pieces and politely warning teams that they needed to make corrections - it worked well - teams were eager to fix things so they could continue playing.)
I do not wish to take anything away from anyone. I want to make sure that this sort of situation is avoided in the future. My greatest admiration and respect goes to the people at GTR-E who were gracious throughout the event - even in what seems to have been trying circumstances.
- Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox
Honestly, I'm not sure that the "don't coopertete with 1114/2056" strategy is that objectionable.
I'd like to respectfully disagree with you. Sure, if your team wants to not cooperate, that's your strategy decision... but going around to every other team at the regional and telling them that the whole regional will be mad at them if they cooperate with one specific team? It's ungracious, unprofessional, and it's just ugly behavior. As Tyler said, that's not playing to win, that's playing to make someone else lose, by manipulating other teams for your own gain. And that is just plain wrong.
I've been following this discussion, as well as spoken to some people about it, and I can't see any side of this where a team intentionally going around the regional, convincing teams to collectively work against one or two specific teams is at all acceptable.
Kaushal.K
11-03-2012, 20:50
Firstly, on behalf of FRC Team 1241 I would like to congratulate Teams 1114, 2056 and 1219 on their Regional victory and 1114 on another Chairman's Award. We will be rooting for you to take home the Chairman's Award at St Louis!
I was a Robot Inspector/Queuer at this regional event (my first time volunteering at an FRC Regional) and was very impressed by the teams and all the volunteers. I would also like to thank Karthik Kanagasabapathy (who, if my understanding is correct) was the regional coordinator. This was the first regional competition that was consistently running early (by approximately 15 minutes)! I started calling it the "Karthik effect" while asking teams to get ready for matches in the pits! ;) I would also like to thank Steve Warren for being a very dedicated FIRST Mentor and Volunteer. Within the 3 days of the regional, I was able to learn a lot from him.
The role of inspectors, as I understand it, is NOT to prevent teams from competing, but rather to ensure (as best as possible) that teams do NOT miss matches and are competing within the rules outlined in the game manual. From discussions with my fellow inspectors, we found all the teams were forthcoming with information about changes throughout the qualification matches. Due to my lack of experience, and the presence of many experienced inspectors, I was allowed to watch the Alliance Selections/Elimination matches and not inspect robots.
Upon reading this thread however, I am confused. I always believed (as a student, and now as a mentor, on FRC Team 1241) that it was a teams "duty" or obligation to get re-inspected when they made any changes to the robot. Where the penalty of not doing so was a DQ from a match and potentially even future matches.
If someone would be able to clarify my understanding about the matter in the last paragraph, I (and I'm sure many others) will be very grateful.
The role of inspectors, as I understand it, is NOT to prevent teams from competing, but rather to ensure (as best as possible) that teams do NOT miss matches and are competing within the rules outlined in the game manual. From discussions with my fellow inspectors, we found all the teams were forthcoming with information about changes throughout the qualification matches. Due to my lack of experience, and the presence of many experienced inspectors, I was allowed to watch the Alliance Selections/Elimination matches and not inspect robots.
Upon reading this thread however, I am confused. I always believed (as a student, and now as a mentor, on FRC Team 1241) that it was a teams "duty" or obligation to get re-inspected when they made any changes to the robot. Where the penalty of not doing so was a DQ from a match and potentially even future matches.
If someone would be able to clarify my understanding about the matter in the last paragraph, I (and I'm sure many others) will be very grateful.The role of inspector is to make sure that all teams are safe and legal to compete. If you're not legal to compete, then you should not be allowed to compete.
If a team makes changes, they are supposed to go call an inspector and say "we did X and Y, check for legality please". That didn't happen in this case; the inspectors spotted it. That should be a DQ, if you can prove it illegal. With the scale "not available", then it's more of a "somebody call HQ" problem; it can take a bit to get the scale out, up, and calibrated.
I can clear up the delay after F2.
As the MC was finishing the F2 intros, myself and at least one ref, and at least one robot inspector noticed that 1219 had added a tabletop vice and 2 bags of chain to their robot as ballast. They did not report this change to the inspectors, nor did they get reinspected afterward.
The inspection sheet with weights confirmed that they very well could have been overweight during that match.
The delay was while the LRI and several of the event organizers decided what to do about it.
Prior to eliminations, our alliance had removed 1219's shooter to lower their CofG and allow them to balance on the bridge easier. After QF1-1, 1219 commented that their robot was not driving as well as it had before, so we added a vice and two bags of chain to return some of the weight that was removed with the shooter. An alliance member was sent to the pits to inquire about re-weighing only to find the inspection station, including the scale had been packed. The shooter that was removed was approximately 25lbs, and the vice and chain that were added were approximately 12lbs combined, so we were not concerned that 1219 was over weight and did not pursue the issue further. Had the LRI requested 1219 to be reweighed, we are fully confident they would have passed.
remulasce
11-03-2012, 21:41
Indeed. The issue with hardline "reinspect or DQ" stance is that it's nearly impossible to get reinspected quickly when you need it. If there was an inspector at the scoring tables that you could just ask to take a look at changes, it would be trivial to get reinspected, but when it's a major task just to get weighed, it's a giant barrier to innovation.
If a team has the option to either improve their robot against regulations*, or play with the same sucky (relative) robot, I don't see how it's such a problem to work on their robot. That's what we're all here to do.
That said, so long as inspection isn't available at the time, it would probably be a good plan to get inspected or at least weighed after anyway to reassure everyone that no undue advantage was gained. Remember, inspection's role is to make sure everybody is safe and nobody is unfairly favored. If a team can prove that that happened without inspection, I see no foul. So 1114 & co. should have made public that proof.
*note that there is no "improvement + inspection" option, because of stated lack of facilities. The basis for this post is invalidated if there is such an option.
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I wasn't at the competition either, but I've had the honor of spending some time with both teams at other events. I've spoken to their students, as well as their mentors.
How DARE you say something like that. I'm continuously impressed by both 1114 and 2056, and most of that is from my interactions with their students- in fact, I'm not even sure I've spoken with any mentors from 2056.
Before you start talking trash, think about the fact that you're criticizing teams for their 'un-GP behavior' by calling them out on something that's not even true on a public forum.
I think it's incredibly unfair that these two outstanding, role model teams are being punished for their success by people with terrible attitudes, both at the regional, and on Chief Delphi.
Yeah, they have incredible technical resources... and? That doesn't mean you can go crying 'mentor-built!'. I'm not even going to touch the mentor/student balance discussion, but I'm only going to say that there is no right or wrong here: if you're not on that team, it's not your business. However the kids get inspired is just fine by me.
Have you even talked to the Simbots, ever? They have a program called Big Simbot, Little Simbot. They have enough mentors that each student has their own individual coach- it's a family. Is that wrong? To me, that's ideal. I only wish the team I mentor had enough mentors to be able to work so closely with our kids and be able to guide and inspire them like 1114 does.
Your bad attitude is very obvious, and I'm sorry your team didn't have the resources those two do. But that doesn't EVER give you the right to trash on another team for working hard.
JustaFan
11-03-2012, 21:43
I really don't think it is appropriate to be making such accusations (i.e. that 1114 and 2056 students don't build the robot), they are extremely hurtful and completely takes away from the hard work those students put in all season. The students on 1114 and 2056 work just as hard as every other student in the FIRST organization. It is very inappropriate to make such a comment, those students are extremely dedicated and deserve the victories they receive.
Also, if you were not at the regional I don't think you should be commenting on that either.
Both 1114 and 2056 show gracious professionalism and coopertation on a regular basis. They are always willing to help other teams in the pit, starting up new rookie teams, and volunteering at regionals.
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Here we go again...
BrendanB
11-03-2012, 21:49
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah
Let the slander begin!
1114 and 2056 are the real deal and are two of the most respected teams in FIRST.
ttldomination
11-03-2012, 21:49
Prior to eliminations, our alliance had removed 1219's shooter to lower their CofG and allow them to balance on the bridge easier. After QF1-1, 1219 commented that their robot was not driving as well as it had before, so we added a vice and two bags of chain to return some of the weight that was removed with the shooter. An alliance member was sent to the pits to inquire about re-weighing only to find the inspection station, including the scale had been packed. The shooter that was removed was approximately 25lbs, and the vice and chain that were added were approximately 12lbs combined, so we were not concerned that 1219 was over weight and did not pursue the issue further. Had the LRI requested 1219 to be reweighed, we are fully confident they would have passed.
Thanks for clearing that up. I was certain that the issue couldn't be so one sided.
Here we go again...
Took the words right out of my mouth.
- Sunny G.
Sean Raia
11-03-2012, 21:50
@lara
Even if those teams do have mentors build their bots, calling them out in the way you did was terribly "un-GP", and you should apologize. As long as students are inspired, why should it matter?
That just about wraps all that up. :cool:
Adam Freeman
11-03-2012, 21:54
.....Insert incredible ignorant comment....
WOW! I really can't believe someone just wrote that.
I wasn't planning to comment in this thread before we got Mr. Lim's explaination post. But, Lara's post could not be more inaccurate, ignorant, or ignored.
We have competed with and against 1114 and/or 2056 almost every year since 2006. Whenever we are at a competition with them, they have been nothing but completely Professional and Gracious. We know that we have to bring nothing but our A+ game to either get selected by them or defeat them. All I know is if we can't play with them, we want to beat them fair and square. I am really disappointed by some of the tactics that were on display at GTR East. I am also really proud that 1114 and 2056 overcame them and won not only the Regional, but also the Chairman's award (1114).
This years game presents an incredible opportunity to not only win a match, but cooperate with your opponent to gain and additional 2 qualification points. It also give teams another opportunity to decide if they are going to exercise GP or not.
If you want to influence your alliance partners during your own match, to not cooperate with another team or alliance, that's one thing. But, to attempt to influence other teams and matched you are not involved in, is terrible.
remulasce
11-03-2012, 21:55
Both teams don't design and manufacture their own robots. They have professional engineers and mentors do it for them.
That's a pretty serious allegation. Do you have evidence of this, and what standard for "student designed and built" do you hold to be un-GP? I think we all agree that mentors are essential for FIRST teams, can you identify the point at which other teams no longer have an obligation to be GP to them?
I personally see no reason why teams should not get parts sent out for manufacturing. This is a robotics competition, not a metalworking competition. Every team that can get access to professional machining uses it. There's no reason not to.
Now coopertition. 2056 and 1114 always pick each other, and end up winning each time. It's not even a surprise anymore, and I doubt you feel accomplished.
To clarify: The point of this competition is to do the best. That's what motivates people. If 1114 and 2056 always pick each other, and then always win, do you think maybe the reason is because 1114 and 2056 are the best? The idea is for you to do better to beat them, not for people to actively sabotage them. 1114 and 2056 have no responsibility to pick teams they think are worse, just because those teams don't get a chance to win. There are only 3 winning slots at each competition. Nobody deserves a better chance to get them than what they get.
Chris Fultz
11-03-2012, 22:01
Keep this clean.
No personal attacks.
No beating of non-living 4 legged beasts allowed.
Or we will add that cool looking padlock to the thread.
Keep this clean.
No personal attacks.
No beating of non-living 4 legged beasts allowed.
Or we will add that cool looking padlock to the thread.
I think that's the direction this thread is going Chris and you may have to do such a thing.
Rich Kressly
11-03-2012, 22:03
DELETED POST
sigh ...
There are so many things I'd like to say/ask in response to what you've written here, but to be honest I'd rather not do anything more to attract attention to it.
I think instead, I'll just point to this from 2006 to let you know such accusations are not original, and six years later, they're still misguided:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=462028&postcount=41
Namaste. Maybe we all one day will spend our energy trying to raise our own level to match that of the competition rather than trying to tear others down.
Namaste. Maybe we all one day will spend our energy trying to raise our own level to match that of the competition rather than trying to tear others down.
This. Completely sums up the entire discussion. Thank you.
AlecMataloni
11-03-2012, 22:12
/endthread
Any way to just delete that post and responses?
This was a good discussion and I hate to see it derailed by such poor behavior.
Lara Surmak
11-03-2012, 22:20
I'm sorry if you all feel this way or if I offended anyone. Yes, they both have their good sides like any other team, but I'm trying to level the playing field so to speak. The design and execution of their robots are too good to be student made. I also went to visit 2056 during last build, and was told by a 2056 parent that one of the mentors designed the robot. I asked (out of curiosity if the rumors were true) an old 2056 driver if the students had much part in robot development, and he got extremely defensive.
Most of what people see on the playing field is money. They win, they get more sponsors to create better robots to destroy the competition.
By the way, I'm not worried about 1114 and 2056 students being inspired, but more everyone on the losing teams. If they see that anything they create is bested every time, they get discouraged and leave.
I'm just dissapointed with how many rookie teams, or even veteran teams, are getting crushed by teams like this. I wish you could see my point of view.
dr. fragger
11-03-2012, 22:21
As a mentor who's been with the team for a number of years, the students felt comfortable approaching me with some issues which they had spotted and requested that I go with them for moral support while they went to take up matters with the referees.
The most disturbing of errors was where one game win was not recorded for our team--our alliance partners got the points, but we did not. I approached Mark Breadner about the issue and it was fixed 45 minutes after the game was over, within 20 minutes after I breached the issue.
I can understand that there is a certain human element involved in these matches, that errors do happen, and all that jazz. The second issue (which had a direct effect on our seating) was that in game 2 (linky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kfc6e0Cjs4&t=1m58s)) we got onto the coopertition bridge, invited 4307 along with us (and due to a lack of driver training, nearly flipped them in the process (sorry!)), however they did make it up there with us! I'm unsure of 3117's intensions, but before we were on the bridge, they had positioned themselves in such a way that would have made it impossible to score the 2 coopertition points for those involved; however the outcome was that 0 (zero) points were rewarded. A similar situation arose in game 53 (linky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_dOhl9YgWU&t=1m46s)) where the result was that 1114 was awarded 1 CP (for inviting, I imagine). From what the kids saw, Karthik went 'crazy' and was yelling at the refs, and the refs were trying to calm him down.
It was brought to my attention by the kids, and I agreed that that was an interesting result, so I went with our driver to go discuss the matter with the refs. I was treated with a very poorly initially (ref stated that he had 'no sympathy for a team that says other teams should not be rewarded points' and once I explained the situation his tone changed to one of agreement and sympathy) and instructed to discuss with the head ref. I approached the head ref and explained the situation, and it was explained to me that he did not remember that game and that detailed data was not kept on CP; essentially I was SOL. I thanked him for his time and went back to the pits with the news.
I can understand that people are people, that's all good and well, and it's what makes society an interesting place to be a part of, however when there are key individuals in positions of power within the FIRST community, who are so engrained and invested in one team (as the young blonde woman's tears attested to in 1114's Chairmanship award video), just as in society, there are silly games that silly people play, but you have to be diligent keep your eyes and ears open.
As with everything in life, battles have to be chosen and political games have to be played.
When the dust settles you've got to rise above it all, give praise where praise is due, and cross your fingers extra-hard for next time. Our warchest may be a paultry sum by comparison to the titans out there, but what we lack in deblumes we make up for with wit, character, and good old-fashioned elbow grease.
If anything can be taken away from this past regional, it's what an upset Team 907 has become to the status quo, where I'm confident that we would have gone on to the finals had it not been for a poor design decision regarding the battery placement. It would have been nice to see the 1114/2056 alliance broken up and would have made for far more interested gameplay (that is to say, having two of the Gods go hand-to-hand) as opposed to the ho-hum same-old pairing, with the same-old outcome.
I'll say here the same words that I have said to the kids on Team 907, who designed and built every component with their own two hands: we did not loose; our battery broke free, preventing us from winning.
The opinions expressed in this message are my personal feelings, put forth by my mind and typed my by hands, and are not representative of Team 907, its sponsors, or the martians that fly overhead monitoring our brainy-wavies (where did my tinfoil hat get to... ).
In closing, I may be loud-mouthed and might come across as crass at times, but I sincerely mean no ill-will and I invite debate because we are, after all, human; we are not omni-present beings who can see-all and be everywhere, so with that said if I misunderstood any issue or misrepresented any information, please bring the issue up and correct me--I'm inviting it! I need to know where I've been wrong and would jump at the opportunity to truly be engaged in a civil debate which doesn't reduce to a pissing contest.
We're all here to have fun, to teach, and equally to learn. Once you actively stop learning and seeking out new information, or are resistant to change, I weep for you.
I have such gratitude for those who made the first GTR East @ UOIT happen--it was a fantastic event, run on schedule in a very organized manner. I look forward to many years to come at this new venue and many more working the spirited and varied kids that make up Team 907. More praise needs to be given to all those involved in getting this event going!
If you made it this far I'd like to leave you with these words: more data, less wank; watch the watchers; sky blue, water wet; more news, at 11.
Looking forward to GTR West,
-The Professor.
Walter Deitzler
11-03-2012, 22:27
Last year, I had never been to a robotics competition, never seen the power of great teams competing. Then I joined my high schools FRC team and we built a PVC and wood robot. After that robot was shipped, I was watching live webcasta and happened to see 1114 at GTR-E. I was instantly inspired. They have such a clean and well functioning robot every year, and it is hard to not be inspired by them. When I see a great robot, I want to strive to build something to compete with it, I don't get shut down because it is better than my robot. Team should be inspired to do want to be like those teams, not to want to cripple them so that they don't win. All I am saying is that I respect the better teams, not fell hurt because they are so good.
Sean Raia
11-03-2012, 22:28
I'm sorry if you all feel this way or if I offended anyone. Yes, they both have their good sides like any other team, but I'm trying to level the playing field so to speak. The design and execution of their robots are too good to be student made. I also went to visit 2056 during last build, and was told by a 2056 parent that one of the mentors designed the robot. I asked (out of curiosity if the rumors were true) an old 2056 driver if the students had much part in robot development, and he got extremely defensive.
Most of what people see on the playing field is money. They win, they get more sponsors to create better robots to destroy the competition.
By the way, I'm not worried about 1114 and 2056 students being inspired, but more everyone on the losing teams. If they see that anything they create is bested every time, they get discouraged and leave.
I'm just dissapointed with how many rookie teams, or even veteran teams, are getting crushed by teams like this. I wish you could see my point of view.
What you said in bold is simply not true.
Had THE REST of this been your original post, im sure a constructive conversation would have started.
I'm glad you have chosen to tune things down though, as your first post in this thread was extremely frustrating to many people.
Aren Siekmeier
11-03-2012, 22:28
Most of what people see on the playing field is money. They win, they get more sponsors to create better robots to destroy the competition.
Money is definitely important in this competition, but how do you think these teams get their money? Hard work. And the only they accomplish anything with their resources is through more hard work.
By the way, I'm not worried about 1114 and 2056 students being inspired, but more everyone on the losing teams. If they see that anything they create is bested every time, they get discouraged and leave.
I'm just dissapointed with how many rookie teams, or even veteran teams, are getting crushed by teams like this. I wish you could see my point of view.
It's definitely important that students are inspired on any team, but preventing one team from excelling will not accomplish this. Our students will meet with disappointment in life, and they have to be able to learn from it, and also to acknowledge the accomplishments of those who did succeed (and maybe learn a thing or two from them as well).
I asked (out of curiosity if the rumors were true) an old 2056 driver if the students had much part in robot development, and he got extremely defensive.
As a student who had designed an awesome robot, wouldn't you?
Lara Surmak
11-03-2012, 22:28
Thank you, dr. fragger, that was a much better way of expressing what I wanted to get across.
Aren_Hill
11-03-2012, 22:32
I'm sorry if you all feel this way or if I offended anyone. Yes, they both have their good sides like any other team, but I'm trying to level the playing field so to speak.
If the playing field is one of these http://www.homelessdave.com/images/HD_Totter_Over.jpg Y height = better in all aspects
the best way to level it is to bring the rotation point up, not the high side down.
I hope you get that someday
Aren Siekmeier
11-03-2012, 22:37
If the playing field is one of these http://www.homelessdave.com/images/HD_Totter_Over.jpg
the best way to level it is to bring the rotation point up, not the high side down.
I hope you get that someday
You can either bring one side down, or the other up. Which do you have control over? Which results in a better overall outcome?
Andrew Schreiber
11-03-2012, 22:38
I'm sorry if you all feel this way or if I offended anyone. Yes, they both have their good sides like any other team, but I'm trying to level the playing field so to speak. The design and execution of their robots are too good to be student made. I also went to visit 2056 during last build, and was told by a 2056 parent that one of the mentors designed the robot. I asked (out of curiosity if the rumors were true) an old 2056 driver if the students had much part in robot development, and he got extremely defensive.
The following is about 1114, I'm sure 2056 is similar but I have not had a lot of interaction with them.
During my time in FIRST I have had the pleasure of competing against 1114 more times than I care to count. I have also had the opportunity to talk with their students and mentors. They have never been anything less than helpful.
One of their mentors in particular has been a particular help to me. This had nothing to do with robotics but they have always been willing to talk over problems with me and provide guidance. They've helped me through a lot.
1114 is the definition of what a FIRST team should be. For anyone to say otherwise is disgusting to me.
The design and execution of their robots are too good to be student made.
You severely underestimate motivated students who have had excellent mentoring in the past (or present). That is all I have to say on this matter, besides:
Mods, I think we need that padlock.
Ken Streeter
11-03-2012, 22:46
The second issue (which had a direct effect on our seating) was that in game 2 (linky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kfc6e0Cjs4&t=1m58s)) we got onto the coopertition bridge, invited 4307 along with us (and due to a lack of driver training, nearly flipped them in the process (sorry!)), however they did make it up there with us! I'm unsure of 3117's intensions, but before we were on the bridge, they had positioned themselves in such a way that would have made it impossible to score the 2 coopertition points for those involved; however the outcome was that 0 (zero) points were rewarded.
Hmm. I can't be sure from watching the video, but I think it looks like 3117 may have designed their robot to be able to do "balance assistance" at the one end, so that when the bridge tips down towards their robot, that end of their robot stops the bridge near the leveled position to make it easier to balance there. It looked to me that they may have actually been trying to help balance the bridge, but didn't know that they would need to back off after the bridge was actually balanced (or didn't know they were still in contact). From watching video of other matches, I'm not sure they ever succeeded at this approach, but it seemed to be a regular strategy.
I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread, but this is too much.
I can understand that there is a certain human element involved in these matches, that errors do happen, and all that jazz. The second issue (which had a direct effect on our seating) was that in game 2 (linky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kfc6e0Cjs4&t=1m58s)) we got onto the coopertition bridge, invited 4307 along with us (and due to a lack of driver training, nearly flipped them in the process (sorry!)), however they did make it up there with us! I'm unsure of 3117's intensions, but before we were on the bridge, they had positioned themselves in such a way that would have made it impossible to score the 2 coopertition points for those involved; however the outcome was that 0 (zero) points were rewarded. A similar situation arose in game 53 (linky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_dOhl9YgWU&t=1m46s)) where the result was that 1114 was awarded 1 CP (for inviting, I imagine). From what the kids saw, Karthik went 'crazy' and was yelling at the refs, and the refs were trying to calm him down.
I absolutely did not yell at any of the refs. You can ask each an everyone of them if you'd like. I did yell after that match, because I was quite disgusted by a team intentionally sabotaging a balanced cooperition bridge, and that certain members of the audience were celebrating it.
It was brought to my attention by the kids, and I agreed that that was an interesting result, so I went with our driver to go discuss the matter with the refs. I was treated with a very poorly initially (ref stated that he had 'no sympathy for a team that says other teams should not be rewarded points' and once I explained the situation his tone changed to one of agreement and sympathy) and instructed to discuss with the head ref. I approached the head ref and explained the situation, and it was explained to me that he did not remember that game and that detailed data was not kept on CP; essentially I was SOL. I thanked him for his time and went back to the pits with the news.
Please read G41, quoted below for your convenience.
If the Coopertition Bridge is not Balanced, but a Robot from each Alliance is fully supported by the Coopertition Bridge, each Alliance will earn 1 Coopertition Point.
I can understand that people are people, that's all good and well, and it's what makes society an interesting place to be a part of, however when there are key individuals in positions of power within the FIRST community, who are so engrained and invested in one team (as the young blonde woman's tears attested to in 1114's Chairmanship award video), just as in society, there are silly games that silly people play, but you have to be diligent keep your eyes and ears open.
As with everything in life, battles have to be chosen and political games have to be played.
I will not sit by idly as you run down my character and accuse me of affecting the results of this or any other FRC event. This is simply not the case.
I have such gratitude for those who made the first GTR East @ UOIT happen--it was a fantastic event, run on schedule in a very organized manner. I look forward to many years to come at this new venue and many more working the spirited and varied kids that make up Team 907. More praise needs to be given to all those involved in getting this event going!
Ironic, since the person you're slandering (me) was the Chairman of the planning committee...
I'm speechless and stunned by actions of some people this weekend, and others in this thread. This isn't the FIRST I've dedicated my last 15 years to.
//Edit: I apologize for ending a sentence with a preposition. I'm too disenchanted at the moment to fix it.
Grim Tuesday
11-03-2012, 22:53
When I look at 1114, I push my team to be as good as them, not to demean them. There is nothing more to say, and I wish other teams had this attitude too.
LeelandS
11-03-2012, 22:55
I'm all for arguing for a point, and I hate to stifle it if I feel that people can learn and be enlightened by it. And, of course, it's really not my place anymore, but Id suggest that now that Karthik has covered the situation (in a very mild manor, which I personally really admire, since I wouldn't have been able to), we either move on from this subject and go with the rest of whatever discussion can be salvaged from this thread, or just end this thread all together.
Just a suggestion.
-Leeland
wendells
11-03-2012, 22:57
Thanks to team 1114 that inspired TEAM 2185 students to enter FIRST Robotics in 2007. We are all Canadians and at the World Robotics Championship, Team 1114 and 2056 represents Canada. I don't have the structure that these teams have, I admire that and the kids have a blast. At the end of the day we don't remember teams personnel but we remember numbers, 1114, 2056, 188, 610, 2198, and so on, it's time we get off our high horses and realise that we lose sleep for our students not our egos. Team 188 helped us in the beginning, I drove to 1114 presentation of the New CRIO in 2008 with my programmer. Everyone should be proud that we have 4 regionals. We will be at the GTA West in a few weeks, time to stop all this non-sense and unite for our best team to represent us at the World Championship.
So a BIG CONGRATULATIONS TO 1114, 2056 AND 1219 on your victory.
NUFF SAID
dr. fragger
11-03-2012, 22:59
I'm sad to say that, at the regional level, all I've personally been met with when attempting to start a conversation with (or congratulating!) a Simbotics member was nothing short of a brick wall; a blank stare and quick flight. 2056 have always been very easy to chit chat with and just seem to be happier people overall.
As a machine, both teams' robots are very impressive, and I would love to sit down with whomever designed it just to pick their brains, or to sit-in on their designing sessions--this, I feel, would be extremely beneficial--to see their design and decision making process, more than anything, for inspiration (and recognition) of science and technology. Being crushed year after year is less inspiring (but it gives our David team a Goliath to look out for).
I could not be happier with Team 907's progress these last few years (moving from a standing of 62nd of 65 teams to being in the semifinals in more more than 4 years) as we hone our process and feel around in the dark for the best recipe and harmony for our students.
We're a team of ~20 student, four mentors, and one teacher--everything is built in-house at a leaky high school (have to dodge water in the shop when it rains!). I take great pride exclaiming that I'm a member of this team--often overlooked and under appreciated.
I'm sad that this may be turning into a 'let's bash 1114/2056!' thread.
More data, less wank.
-The Professor.
Congratulations to team 2056, 1114 and 1219! Great robots as always.
I would also congratulate team 610, 188 and 3360 for their awesome performance.
Teams have to understand that FIRST is about learning and working together. And if you really want to win then work hard, you cannot just say that other teams are really good.
And Karthik, we missed you as mc. Not that the mc at UOIT was bad but we are just used to seeing you and your exciting introductions.
-Kishan Shah
Team 2935
basicxman
11-03-2012, 23:02
And Karthik, we missed you as mc. Not that the mc at UOIT was bad but we are just used to seeing you and your exciting introductions.
It was awesome to see the new MC gain confidence throughout the weekend and get the crowds roaring. I believe Karthik was right there giving him some of the best mentorship a MC could receive.
dr. fragger
11-03-2012, 23:07
I absolutely did not yell at any of the refs. You can ask each an everyone of them if you'd like. I did yell after that match, because I was quite disgusted by a team intentionally sabotaging a balanced cooperition bridge, and that certain members of the audience were celebrating it.
I apologize for the misinformation I was provided with.
Please read G41, quoted below for your convenience.
Thank you, but the matter still stand of the missing point. It's in the past now regardless.
I will not sit by idly as you run down my character and accuse me of affecting the results of this or any other FRC event. This is simply not the case.
I sorry that I have to bring this up, but you yelled at a girl on our team until she was in tears last regional. Excuse me for saying this, but it's left me personally with a somewhat tarnished image of your moral character in my mind.
Ironic, since the person you're slandering (me) was the Chairman of the planning committee...
Credit where credit is due, what can I say--it was a wonderful event to be a part of, ran on time (and ahead of time!), and all I can do is appreciate your organizational skills and general command over the event. We all had an fantastic time and this is a great new venue for FIRST.
I'm speechless and stunned by actions of some people this weekend, and others in this thread. This isn't the FIRST I've dedicated my last 15 years to.
Don't let it all get to you; as with everything in life, you've got to roll with the punches. We've all been there in one way or another.
//Edit: I apologize for ending a sentence with a preposition. I'm too disenchanted at the moment to fix it.
Apology noted.
The long and short of it goes like this: yes, it's tiring that you guys clean up wherever you go, and yes, it's fantastic to see the top teams bleed, but your team inspires many more to be better and drives their want to one-up you. Take that away from this thread, more than anything, with pride.
P.
Grim Tuesday
11-03-2012, 23:10
Please lock this thread, it has turned into nothing but personal attacks.
I sorry that I have to bring this up, but you yelled at a girl on our team until she was in tears last regional. Excuse me for saying this, but it's left me personally with a somewhat tarnished image of your moral character in my mind.
Bring it up all you'd like, but don't expect me not to respond with the truth. This student repeatedly broke the rules for the usage of her media badge, including arguing with our head ref when she shouldn't have even been on the field. After multiple warnings, I told her she was no longer permitted to have the badge. No yelling took place, and I stand by my actions. If you'd like to continue this discussion in private, feel free to contact me. If you'd like to continue to bash my team, you can do that as well. If you have a tarnished image of my moral character, there's nothing I can do to fix that. I'm not here to convince you of who I am.
Rise above the hate...
iVanDuzer
11-03-2012, 23:13
To the planning committee and all the teams at GTR East, kudos to you. It was a show to be sure, one full of nerves and excitement.
Personally, I think that 2056 and 1114 are being extremely hypocritical about gracious professionalism and coopertition.
First the GP. Both teams don't design and manufacture their own robots. They have professional engineers and mentors do it for them. Whatever happened to student designed, student built?
I'm a former student from 2056. Now I mentor another team. I can honestly say that some of the coolest ideas that went on our competition robots for the past 5 years have been student designed (including the climbing device that won a Championship design award in 2010). If you're talking to the former driver and he's getting defensive, it's probably because he knows this and is expecting another lambasting for driving a "mentor-built" robot.
Now coopertition. 2056 and 1114 always pick each other, and end up winning each time. It's not even a surprise anymore, and I doubt you feel accomplished.
I know the students on 2056 feel very accomplished with their successes (and I should know, one of them is my brother). They also feel lucky. This is because Canadian teams are getting much better than the results suggest.
For all intents and purposes, 2056 and 1114 should NOT have won that regional. The triple balance, had it worked, would have won both finals 1 and 2. A similar thing happened in 2009, with two of the same teams. Both times, some well-timed luck for 2056 kept the streak alive.
188, 610, 772, 1503, 781 have all won regionals in the past 4 years. Not against 1114 or 2056, and in some cases with them, but they have shown that they are the best of the best. These teams are consistently in the finals of Canadian regionals, and build alliances that, if they were competing elsewhere, could probably win most regionals. The fact that they are all improving at such a ridiculous rate and that 2056 and 1114 are able to keep winning really speaks to their own improvements. In the face of such amazing teams (four of which last year surpassed both 2056+1114 at the World Championships), to have a streak of 12 regional wins is absolutely something to take pride in.
TL;DR Canadian regionals are a lot more competitive than many people seem to think...
PayneTrain
11-03-2012, 23:18
This thread was brought to my attention earlier this evening. I took the weekend off from dissecting the competition and watching the forums to spend time with the team and my friends and family before I go dark Wednesday night.
Full disclosure: this thread is populated with the words of adults and I am but a senior on my robotics team, and a wearer of many hats. I haven't been around the block as many as some of you have, but as I read, a sour taste grew in my mouth.
I don't mean to sound like a condescending parent, but I'm disappointed.
I'm disappointed that this bridge, which was identified as a point of collusion instead of coopertition, was made such a big factor by the GDC.
I'm disappointed the GDC should have had to consider that this would happen.
I'm disappointed that teams apparently took their weekends out of high school to take stereotypical high school peer pressure from the hallways of schools to the aisles of a regional.
I'm disappointed that this kind of conduct left the pits and came on to the field. You get 135 seconds to do your very best. In those 135 seconds, teams shouldn't be conspiring with one another to do worst than your best. Our sponsors believe in us enough to donate to our occasionally expensive cause, because we believe in ourselves. I told my team this year that in the past we fumbled around, slapped some metal together, and got lucky, and those days were over. I'm proud of what we all did this year, and one of our sponsors noticed enough to throw more support our way. When mentors or students throw any aspect of the game on the field, you shame every logo on your robot.
I'm disappointed that we go through the same tired charade every year of "this robot is mentor built" and "why are adults on the drive team"? There are thousands of FRC teams. If we were all the same, it would be boring and pointless. I take pride in the way our team conducts our operations, and I'd like to be more focused on how to win with what we have than how others win with what we don't.
I know I'm going to get heat for this, but I'm disappointed in how the victimized teams took to their Twitter, Facebook, and Chief Delphi accounts to throw down other teams. Yes, teams shouldn't be jerks, and yes, they were jerks. However, if we elect to preach the merits of focusing on how well your specific team is performing, and how you shouldn't worry about how other teams practice their interpretation of Gracious Professionalsim, don't go complaining about it all. I've read how 1114 has received negative feedback for positive performances before. People are people. Kids shouldn't have to deal with other teams negative attitudes, but I have to go to school with people who shouldn't be rude. I would hope mentors would take this opportunity to tell their students to rise above the BS of other's personalities instead of taking their complaints to the internet. That usually just results in hurt feelings, which were clearly laid out in this thread.
I know your opinion on that may be drastically different, but I feel like it should be mentioned.
I considered condensing this message and sending to the team in one of our emails, but frankly, this thread has really pulled my enthusiasm about FRC down a few notches. I'm going with three dozen members and coaches to my final home regional this weekend, and suddenly, I'm not looking forward to it at all. Here's to hoping it changes by Wednesday.
ghostmachine360
11-03-2012, 23:19
Congratulations to 1114, 2056, and 1219 for winning GTRE, 1114 for their RCA, and 1114 for their dual DL Finalists.
And to 1114, thank you for continually being an inspiration to myself and my alma mater. You, your mentors, and your alumni are one of the reasons I believe without a doubt that FIRST is changing our culture. I can only wish to reach the level of discipline and effort that each individual in the Simbotics family employ on a daily basis as I start to do more in volunteering & working with FIRST as an alumni/mentor.
Also, I relish the thought and opportunity to have not 2, but 4 Simbotics Dean's List finalists in our group; an opportunity to work with the best, and to make FIRST better as an organization.
I'm sad to say that, at the regional level, all I've personally been met with when attempting to start a conversation with (or congratulating!) a Simbotics member was nothing short of a brick wall; a blank stare and quick flight. 2056 have always been very easy to chit chat with and just seem to be happier people overall.
As a machine, both teams' robots are very impressive, and I would love to sit down with whomever designed it just to pick their brains, or to sit-in on their designing sessions--this, I feel, would be extremely beneficial--to see their design and decision making process, more than anything, for inspiration (and recognition) of science and technology. Being crushed year after year is less inspiring (but it gives our David team a Goliath to look out for).
I'm not sure which team member(s) you have talked too, but I can guarantee anytime I have talked to either member from both of these teams, I have been met with humbled responses and they have ALWAYS explained anything I have asked in detail regarding their robot or program.
I'm greatly upset at the way this thread has turned, this is a poor representation of FIRST and more specifically this event. This was a very enjoyable weekend and it is disappointing that the negative aspects are being highlighted.
Furthermore, I have never witnessed or experienced such a sentimental and moving moment in any FIRST event since 2003 then when Simbotics Chairman's Award video submission was played for the entire crowd shortly after their win .
It is impossible to sit there and not realize the affect this team has on their students, Ontario, Canada and the FIRST program and it's entirety. It is phenomenal the things they have accomplished, it truly is remarkable.
Before anyone else decides to make a comment regarding these teams, come to a regional that they are competing at, find a team member and talk to them, I can guarantee you will be amazed at the things they have to say.
Lastly, as a small example of the kind of people that 1114 is made of, the entire 1114 team stayed last night helping pack up the field until every single crate was on the truck. No questions asked, just pure generosity from their students and mentors.
Stop bad mouthing such an inspiring team and group of people.
dr. fragger
11-03-2012, 23:23
Rise above the hate...
Wise words.
P.
PriyankP
11-03-2012, 23:26
I can't believe some of the things that have been said in this thread. Teams bashing other teams publicly because of their strategy, teams bashing other teams publicly for being successful, teams bashing other teams publicly for being a good team. For the first time, I am ashamed of being a part of FIRST and trying to spread it to friends and colleagues.
Some of the words used to describe Team 2185 by teams on social networking sites and users here are just plain disrespectful to the team and its students and mentors. You guys started bashing them when you didn't have the full knowledge of what happened and why it happened. While the actions of some of the team members on the playing field might be considered ungracious, it is no reason to publicly curse at the whole team or to call them names. That is, by definition, ungracious.
Choosing to not balance the white bridge with the opposing alliance is a valid strategy this year and has already changed the outcomes of competitions that took place in weeks one and two. I believe that the bridge is a good addition to the game because it is a way to make sure that the alliances in the eliminations are (somewhat) balanced. For whatever reason, if a team feels that by not balancing the bridge, they will have a higher chance of winning, then there is nothing ungracious about it. However, it is my personal opinion that if an alliance member chooses to balance the white bridge, they should not be prevented from doing so.
The amount of hate in this thread is just ridiculous. Team 1114 and Team 2056 have not committed a crime by being good. Neither have they been ungracious about anything! Hating on teams who have raised the bar for success is just stupid. Also, since when is it acceptable to publicly humiliate a team by posting on Chief Delphi that _____ team was on our blacklist for _____ reason? If you don't like the team's actions on/off the field, keep it within your team and when it comes to alliance selections, you can choose to not work with the team.
The reason why this matters to me is because I tried to get certain influential people at my university to see how amazing FIRST is by sending out a few links and I (foolishly) included a link to this thread. At this point I really hope that they decided to not read everything in this post after the first 2 pages. It will not only be embarrassing for me, but it will also hurt FIRST because of very few bitter individuals.
Amid all the controversies, I would like to congratulate teams 1114, 2056, 1219 for winning the regional. You guys were definitely a force to reckon with and fun to compete with. I hope you know that no one on 188 has any hate towards you. In fact, many students try to look at your previous work and have learned a lot from it.
Congratulations to Simbotics for the regional Chairman's Award, your Chairman's video was really inspiring! Congrats to 2809 for the double engineering awards! And as a Team 188 alumni and mentor, I would also like to congratulate the students on my own team for another successful regional; eventually we'll get the gold!
610, you guys had a wonderful robot and were a great alliance captain! As usual, it was a pleasure working with you and I hope to team up again in the future and win some hardware. 3360, you guys were brilliant and the triple balance was just out of question without you guys!
I apologize if you feel anything I said is wrong; please do not associate my opinions to that of my team.
Thank you to all and hope to see you next year!
~ Priyank
For example those vex and Lego kits that they put in all the schools probably added up to a cash value of more then the budgets of most teams competing.
I wasn't going to comment on this thread.
But if you truly don't believe that spreading STEM opportunities to younger students and a wider audience is a worthwhile use of funds, and that it would be better spent on getting you a plastic trophy, then you do not belong in an event For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology.
Please close this thread. We all need to calm down, and go back to culture changing.
Akash Rastogi
11-03-2012, 23:36
To lighten the mood just a bit
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/16101492.jpg
Anupam Goli
11-03-2012, 23:42
what this person did wrong was use the #'s of a few teams, but they are not the only ones that do it. sadly because of these two teams this person may not have have ever been exposed to the others that do it.
I love this post but have been un able to say it in fear of getting my account banned from this form. i have been in FRC for years in the GTR area and feel the pain. teams like this tear the dreams of others away from them by removing any chance of getting to the worlds, by cleaning up on the field and in the awards section of comp. with budgets that have grown from cascading sources they can do more then most teams can... in my eyes it seems that they get more attention then what they should. you give any team that kind of $ backing them up and any one can do more. for example those vex and Lego kits that they put in all the schools probably added up to a cash value of more then the budgets of most teams competing.
on the other hand FRC permits teams to run them like a business, so you have some kids build there bot by hand and others shipping it out to be built for them and they might assemble it. it's going to happen.
what needs to change is that the judges, and refs should not be in any way related to any `one` team, this causes a huge bias IMO. Judges for awards should also know what awards have been given to a team at other regional's so that any one team can not win the same award at 4 different regional for the same work. this allows for more students work to be seen.
we all must be reminded it's the students that should be learning not the adults. the chance to evenly earn there way to the worlds should be given to any group of students that set there minds to it.
There is a similar phenomenon down here in the Atlanta are with Team 2415 and their sweeping of regionals lately. I'm going to say it right now: They earned every single bit of the money They Raised, every single regional victory The Students won through intelligence, strategy, and skill, and they deserve all of the praise they get.
There are plenty of rumors going around saying The mentors (Former 1002 Alumni) built 2415's robots, and how their massive budgets that allow them to build 3 robots is unfair, but it comes down to how hard they work. I had the opportunity to see their shop. It's smaller than our own, yet they use it to its fullest potential. The team works hard, and earns everything they do
It's the same with Team 1114. Want to one up them? Earn it. If that means working your butts off, then so be it. After our team's lackluster performance last year, I went on a crusade to gain as much knowledge and experience as possible to ensure our team was victorious this year. I browsed CD daily, designed drivetrains, participated in Beta testing, and did offseason events. The end result: We have a good robot that can compete with the best of the best this year.
Team 1114 and 2056 continue to be my sources of inspiration, ever since we faced off against them in the Quarter Finals of Archimedes in 2009. I was a freshman at the time, I was amazed at how beautiful their robots were, and I continued to follow them because of what an inspiration both teams are. Instead of hating on them, let them inspire you, and show you what FIRST really is.
TRWSHSHLX
11-03-2012, 23:42
Coming from a robotics program that had to share a motor controller between 3 robots for FTC, I know first hand what it means to be under-funded, under-sponsored, and insert similar adjectives.
It's true that some teams have more resources than others, however, does that mean other teams should hate on them just because of that? No. Almost all of the resourceful teams have dedicated people (students and or mentors) working on how to sustain the partnerships and similar stuff. They've earned their resources by working for them.
As for purposefully denying the balance of a bridge, like many others already said, if the cooperative bridge is already balanced, just leave it. It's one thing to not accept the invitation, but to go against your own alliance robot and ram the bridge on purpose? Maybe the ramming team can approach your own alliance partners and suggest not to cooperate (for whatever reason) and if your partner think the action is better for them in the long run, they will agree.
Every team out there is trying to win, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, winning is not critical in FIRST to be inspired. Of course everyone want to be a winner vs. being on the losing side, but does that mean they are not inspired to build a better robot next year, have more outreach activities, or try to find more resources? No. There will only be 3 teams (4 teams if counting chairman) to be the "true winner" of the competition, but that doesn't mean the rest of the teams are not inspired. If the level of inspiring of your team is solely based on the result of the season, here's a phrase for you, as I'm not going to comment anything towards any team in particular:
It's about the journey, not the destination.
dr. fragger
11-03-2012, 23:42
I love this post but have been un able to say it in fear of getting my account banned from this form.
Then please do not use this account--I want to know who this is, it's very upsetting and should not be representative of the team in its entirety by using the teams account.
Send me a personal message and do not use this account for your personal use again. This was a decision made in poor taste. Ownership of opinions should be one of the lessons you learned by being a member of this team.
P.
*edit, added below*
To lighten the mood just a bit
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/16101492.jpg
I like you... personally this thread is a distraction right now from my development of slides for the lecture I have to give tomorrow.
I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread, but this is too much.
Karthik,
For once, you are wrong—with the first clause of the sentence, that is. The latter half is correct. I, with the utmost sincereness, thank you for getting involved in this thread, and I ask you to continually get involved in threads that involve you directly and/or indirectly. I do not ask this because i want to read fights, nor arguments, nor ideals that FIRST does not strive for, but because you are a "hidden mentor" to a lot of people, including myself.
I cannot simply express how much of an impact you, and other mentors on Chief Delphi have had on me (Koko Ed, EricH, Akash, etc.). However, I am most certainly going to try. All my life I have been one of the most competitive people you will ever meet. I always want to win, whether it's a basketball game against another school, or a game of monopoly with my family. The worst part is, I always want to make an excuse, or in my mind at times a "reason", as to why I lost, or why he/she won.
Regional competitions, unfortunately, bring out my superfluously competitive nature. I partially consider this to be inherent in myself, but I know it can be controlled. I see, read, and hear about how brilliantly successful teams like 1114 and 2056 are, and my first emotion is jealously. I understand this is wrong, however I believe jealously is simply the evil twin of desiring to emulate, and it can be overcome. My point here is, when I read the aforementioned posts bashing teams like yours, I find myself agreeing with the previous comments, and thinking to myself, Yeah, it's not fair that they have these amazing mentors!, thus being my "excuse", and so on. I then find myself being sucked into these terrible, non-graciously professional opinions.
Seeing you respond to these harsh posts, as professional and mature as humanly possible, is what snaps me back to reality. Swiftly and firmly, but not too aggressively, you knock down every attack placed upon you. You remind me that there are incredibly gifted students out there. You remind me that FIRST is about inspiration, not winning regionals. Most importantly, you remind me that I am acting like a fool and that making excuses will get me nowhere in life.
To put it quite simply, please continue to reply. Please continue to be a hidden mentor. Please continue to show others, and myself included, how to respond maturely and passionately about issues that directly concern oneself. Please continue to post so that people like myself, that may get swayed by these negatives posts, can see the truth. As a junior in High School, I am just now beginning to understand the real world. You, Karthik, probably without realizing it, are helping me to rationally shape a true, honest, and Graciously Professional real world.
With complete sincerity,
Thank you for being a true FIRST mentor.
-Duke
EDIT: P.S. I move to consider keeping this thread open, as per the reasons aforementioned. No, New York, you may NOT abstain from the vote!
//Edit: I apologize for ending a sentence with a preposition. I'm too disenchanted at the moment to fix it.
I'm quite the "grammar police" kind of guy, but I'll let this one slide. ;)
Why are there so many people out there who are so uncomfortable with how other students and mentors run their teams? It is not YOUR team.
Why does it matter how other teams function unless you are seeking that information to better your own team? If you feel like other teams are doing FIRST wrong, why does it matter? All that matters is if YOUR team is doing FIRST in a way that you see as "right".
FIRST was a learning experience for me. It got me prepared for the world by introducing me to how the world functions in a lot of ways. The world is NOT fair. The world is NOT all sunshine and rainbows. The world is full of things that not everyone is going to like- but that is REALITY.
Faulting a team for consistently winning is irrational and ungracious. The truth is, some teams got it figured out. Some teams know how important it is to learn from their mistakes and carry everything they have learned from one generation and teach it to the next. Some teams know how to educate their students so that each and every year, no matter who is on the team, they can pick up where they left off.
And even if there were teams that sit and play video games for 4 weeks until a big name engineer shows up with a step to step guide on how to build a robot, why would it matter?? What are they learning? Nothing. What are you learning? Everything. In the end, you win. So what the heck do you have to complain about it?
Students should enjoy the short time they have to be a part of a FIRST team and mentors should focus on helping their students learn and achieve goals/dreams. Period.
Allison K
11-03-2012, 23:52
I would just like to note that having superpower teams is great for an area. As a mentor and alumni of a team sandwiched between 469 (4 miles to the west) and 217 (10 miles to the east), and in close proximity to a number of other Michigan superpowers, I can attest to the fact that having superpower teams in the area should be considered a positive thing for both FIRST overall and by individual teams in the area. Such teams bring publicity and media attention, attract more students to the program, piques interest from neighboring schools resulting in the creation of more teams, and give other local teams something to aspire towards. Though it seems that most of the posts in this thread are in defense of 1114/2056, those who are distressed by their robot-building prowess ought to consider whether FIRST in Canada would ever have grown to what it is now without their presence.
Congrats to 1114, 2056, and 1219 on your win!
~Allison
Lara Surmak
11-03-2012, 23:53
For the people who can see where I'm coming from, thank you. It's nice to know that other people have noticed this :)
A lot of people have been mentioning that the superior robots are something to strive for. I'm just wondering what high school student has the skill or knowledge to even compare to a professional engineer? It would be an excellent goal if we were all had the same resources, but that goal is unattainable. I'm sorry to say this, but high school students have almost no chance next to them. They don't have the training, facilities, or experience.
Wow, what a thread... Please mods don't close it, yet... There are things said in the thread that more teams should read and think about, which is a good thing. Here are my two comments...
1) Many years ago, I've experienced first hand a team playing very ungraciously during a competition, where an adult coach was telling a driver to purposely tip another robot in order to win the match because it was the only way to win. Sad. Now I know a kid might make the decision in haste, but to hear from an adult in a pre-match planning session was disturbing. I am referring to one of those teams that allegedly conspired against 1114/2056. I wasn't surprised to hear this happen.
2) Jealousy gets the best of all of us, including some CD members. For many of our early years my own team was always jealous of the poofs (254). They had great mentors, sponsors, and always a winning robot. But after getting to know them closer - you begin to get more inspired than jealous. They work really, really hard. My team strives to do more and more each year, partly because we want to compete on the same level as 254. It has become a standard that we try to hold ourselves to and I have a feeling others do as well. The same goes true for 1114/2056. They have risen the bar and all of us with it. Last year I heard from another team's mentor that our team doesn't build or design our robots and that is all mentor driven. I laughed... I kind of take that as a compliment that our team is reaching that higher level.
How do you get to same point as 254/1114/2056 and others? Work really really hard!! It is a good lesson more students need to learn.
Matt1114
11-03-2012, 23:55
...you give any team that kind of $ backing them up and any one can do more. For example those Vex and Lego kits that they put in all the schools probably added up to a cash value of more then the budgets of most teams competing.
Just to be clear, 1114 put together funding proposals to our school board, so they could purchase robotics kits for every school. We did this in hopes of fostering interest in STEM education in the Niagara region. This was not a case of us throwing around bags of our own money. It was us working to reform education, and convincing our school board to put an emphasis on STEM education. I'm not sure how you can see this as a bad thing.
dr. fragger
11-03-2012, 23:58
Just to be clear, 1114 put together funding proposals to our school board, so they could purchase robotics kits for every school. We did this in hopes of fostering interest in STEM education in the Niagara region. This was not a case of us throwing around bags of our own money. It was us working to reform education, and convincing our school board to put an emphasis on STEM education. I'm not sure how you can see this as a bad thing.
Ah, that's quite fantastic; great work!
How large is the school board down there?
P.
Aren_Hill
12-03-2012, 00:00
For the people who can see where I'm coming from, thank you. It's nice to know that other people have noticed this :)
A lot of people have been mentioning that the superior robots are something to strive for. I'm just wondering what high school student has the skill or knowledge to even compare to a professional engineer? It would be an excellent goal if we were all had the same resources, but that goal is unattainable. I'm sorry to say this, but high school students have almost no chance next to them. They don't have the training, facilities, or experience.
Ummmmmm.....in 2008 I was a senior and built a swerve that made JVN jealous (he said it himself to one of his colleagues)
Also the team i was a part of 1625 had a self employed architect as the main "engineering" mentor
oh, also we went 3-2 whole season against them in 2008 with their beautiful piece of engineering simplicity, and then had a robot in 2009 I think they'll admit came out swinging better than they did.
If these the top tier wasn't around who would I strive to beat?
I have the utmost respect for them.
step it up, stop trying to validate mediocrity
JaneYoung
12-03-2012, 00:03
The reason why this matters to me is because I tried to get certain influential people at my university to see how amazing FIRST is by sending out a few links and I (foolishly) included a link to this thread. At this point I really hope that they decided to not read everything in this post after the first 2 pages. It will not only be embarrassing for me, but it will also hurt FIRST because of very few bitter individuals.
Sometimes, Moderators have been known to 'split' threads when discussions veer away from the original purpose of the thread or when another topic is introduced into the initial thread and deserves its own.
I watched as a Week One thread veered into an intense discourse and it was frustrating to see that thread become overwhelmed. Maybe individuals who want to discuss outcomes of their competition that are going to be emotional, controversial, or spark intense discussions, could start a separate thread after the event and call it something like, Aftermath, or something.
I'm sure there are teams who would love to post about their experiences at the regionals but can't quite get around all of the landmines. This is just an .02.
Jane
dtengineering
12-03-2012, 00:04
It's been a while since I've taken a team out to Toronto, but I have to say that I have a great respect for all the teams out there and the organizing team that puts these events together. I still follow the results with interest. (particularly to cheer for 1241...)
I continue to be amazed at how 1114 puts in such consistantly outstanding performances year after year. I believe this is the seventh consecutive regional championship they have won. I've had a chance to sit down and talk to some of the mentors and students in the past (when you play against them three times at a regional, you kind of want to get to know some of them) and... yeah... they're the real deal. I learned a few things from them that helped make our team better. I keep hoping they will take home the Championship Chairman's one year.
But I also have empathy for teams that feel frustrated by repeatedly losing to an 1114-led alliance. I don't condone that frustration being expressed by name-calling, bullying, or other inappropriate activities, but I do appreciate that otherwise rational, caring people can sometimes do and say things they will later regret.
During the years our team played in Toronto, however, we also played on the west coast. It was fabulous (and healthy) to experience two completely different sets of teams.
I realize it is expensive to take a team on the road (that was, after all, how we got from Vancouver to Toronto...) but it is also healthy. There are excellent regionals in all sorts of exciting places... if a team is feeling frustrated playing in (or near) Ontario then maybe they need a breath of fresh air. It's a great way to make some new FRC friends and keep your focus on what this whole crazy venture is really about.
Believe me... It's a lot easier to take delight in the extreme awesomeness of an 1114/2056 led alliance when you know you don't have to play against them ALL the time.
Jason
Personally, I think that...
...before you critisize every other team to conspiring against you, take a good look at yourself first.
*Side note: I actually wasn't at the competition last weekend, but I'm sure my ex-team would never initiate something like that*
Sometimes, I wish I was still an FLL kid...
I'm just wondering what high school student has the skill or knowledge to even compare to a professional engineer? It would be an excellent goal if we were all had the same resources, but that goal is unattainable. I'm sorry to say this, but high school students have almost no chance next to them. They don't have the training, facilities, or experience.This is what I call a self-fulfilling prophecy. "We don't have a chance" turns into "Why should we even try" turns into "we don't have a chance" again, only worse.
Most of what I, as an ME senior in college, do every day is stuff that a high school student could probably do if given the equations and values to use. What separates a high school student from me is that I've got extra experience, and hopefully better judgement when it comes to engineering. (I also have an understanding of why the equation is the way it is and what it does.)
To say that the "same resources" goal is unattainable is, quite frankly, defeatist. It's reasonably attainable to get to similar resources with some hard work. And in this game, resources don't always matter. Use of the resources you do have does--I could have a full CNC shop that gets used on "bling" (and a budget to match) and I could easily get beaten by a kitbot or kitbot on steroids built by a team with hand tools where the team uses those hand tools very effectively.
High schoolers do indeed have a chance against an engineer in this competition. It's happened like that several times. But it's better if the students and the engineers are working together. That's what many of these top teams have figured out and mastered.
Allison K
12-03-2012, 00:13
For the people who can see where I'm coming from, thank you. It's nice to know that other people have noticed this :)
A lot of people have been mentioning that the superior robots are something to strive for. I'm just wondering what high school student has the skill or knowledge to even compare to a professional engineer? It would be an excellent goal if we were all had the same resources, but that goal is unattainable. I'm sorry to say this, but high school students have almost no chance next to them. They don't have the training, facilities, or experience.
If a lack of resources (financial, human, material, experience, etc.) is an insurmountable challenge for you/your team at this time, perhaps you could consider a program such as FTC or VEX in which such resources have less on an impact on performance on the field. Both programs could be taken up either instead of or in addition to your FRC participation, and may bring about the knowledge and experience necessary to overcome your FRC challenges.
~Allison
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=104497
I feel like this is pretty relevant, especially since people are so quick to start harassing each other.
Maybe sharing stories will be a good way to stop it. As a bunch of people have said, let's build each other UP, not tear each other down. If you think there's a discrepancy between teams... learn from the successes.
For the people who can see where I'm coming from, thank you. It's nice to know that other people have noticed this :)
A lot of people have been mentioning that the superior robots are something to strive for. I'm just wondering what high school student has the skill or knowledge to even compare to a professional engineer? It would be an excellent goal if we were all had the same resources, but that goal is unattainable. I'm sorry to say this, but high school students have almost no chance next to them. They don't have the training, facilities, or experience.
You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that in FIRST students are supposed to do all the work themselves.
akoscielski3
12-03-2012, 00:34
For the people who can see where I'm coming from, thank you. It's nice to know that other people have noticed this :)
A lot of people have been mentioning that the superior robots are something to strive for. I'm just wondering what high school student has the skill or knowledge to even compare to a professional engineer? It would be an excellent goal if we were all had the same resources, but that goal is unattainable. I'm sorry to say this, but high school students have almost no chance next to them. They don't have the training, facilities, or experience.
Me?
Throughout the past two years i have trained myself in SolidWorks, and how to design. I designed about 10 chassis this year alone. And have even started to invent things or come up with ideas to invent.
This season I designed our robot all by myself. For 2 and a half weeks i was in a corner of the build room, in my room, or in class (shh my teachers dont know) designing our 2012 robot DROID. I taught myself how to design, how to make things work on a robot, and how to approach the task at hand. YES I AM A STUDENT IN GRADE 11! We built the robot (yes, us students) in 2 weeks. My dad's company water-jet cut all the sheet metal parts and bent the ones that needed to be bent. Did this take away form me learning? NO. In industry you dont always make a part that you use in an assembly. You get someone else to do it. Or you may design something, and then have someone else build and make it for you. These may be bad examples though. I still got all the knowledge of designing and building an amazing FRC robot. I have to say that our robot this year looks professionally built and works like a pro. JUST LIKE 1114 or 2056, or 188 and 610 for that matter.
So to answer your question about a student doing as well as a pro engineer. Yes a student can do as good.
Guess what. This student designed and built robot is undefeated in 2012, and won the teams First regional ever, Smoky Mountains, with team 234 and 3259.
Get informed before saying a student cant do as good as a professional engineer in the FIRST World.
Hi all,
I just want to check in with a few comments.
First off, Congrats to the winning alliance, it was well deserved.
To 1114 and 2056, I am always amazed and inspired by the quality of both your robots and your teams. You both work insanely hard to accomplish your goals and your success is very well deserved.
Having competed against both of you for now what will be the 6th straight year, I can tell you that to the students, the Canadian regionals have become somewhat disappointing knowing who is going to win before they even show up. I think this has forced some Canadian teams to travel across the border. (I can assure you that this was NOT the reason for 2200 and 2386)
With that in mind, It is my opinion that this is the first year that the GDC has done a (very) good job of providing a way to level the playing field by allowing teams to choose who they wish to co-operate with. Unfortunately as we saw at UOIT, this came with some unintended political consequences.
I will admit, i was on the edge of my seat the entire 59th match, in hope that the coopertition bridge would remain unbalanced. I think that everyone will agree that most of the people attending the regional would LOVE to see a finals where 1114 and 2056 where on separate alliances.
Unfortunately in competition, any team that stands in your way of 1st place is your enemy, and any enemy of your enemy is your friend. Both of these teams have been sitting in the #1 spot for the last 6 or more years. And the targets on their heads have grown accordingly. I fully expect sometime in the next two Ontario regionals for teams to work as hard as possible, and succeed at splitting up these 2 teams in the elimination rounds. Making for what will probably be the most exciting regional of the year. I hope they do it well within the rules of the games, and without any malicious actions.
Again I have nothing bad to say about either of these teams. I would hope that every last team attending would look up to the quality of 1114 and 2056
- Bochek
Kyle Love
12-03-2012, 00:42
If you think there's a discrepancy between teams... learn from the successes.
Well said Libby.
Everyone who has seen 1114 evolve into the beast they are now can thoroughly respect their accomplishments.
There is a similar phenomenon down here in the Atlanta are with Team 2415 and their sweeping of regionals lately. I'm going to say it right now: They earned every single bit of the money They Raised, every single regional victory The Students won through intelligence, strategy, and skill, and they deserve all of the praise they get.
I hope 1002 doesnt screw 2415 over at the bridge considering i was instrumental in getting 1002 2 of their RCAs and 2 of their EIs and served as their president for 2 years... and then started 2415 when i was a belligerent freshman in college. I would be a little upset about that and would probably call you some mean names.
But no worries, in like 9 years im gonna throw fat stacks at a team and collect awesome mentors to help develop super children to dominate the world at FRC.
But seriously guys, this is HS robotics. Lets all cool out a little. These are 15 year old hormonally charged kids. Most of these kids Pre-pubescents with no understanding of a lot of the issues at hand. Hopefully this issue can be self goverened without some ridiculous justice league GDC enforcement that other have suggested on here.
I am confident that the spirit of FIRST (whatever that means these days, is it trademarked yet?) will rectify this situation through education and hard work. No need to berate young children. There is a big difference in yelling and mentoring (although the lines are often blurred in the 2415 shop lolz jk). And when I say mentoring, i mean life mentoring. Like not only teaching the kids how to do things in the shop, but how to act and conduct themselves even when things are going wrong. DUH!!!
And to be honest, the teams that are being ostracized could probably take a step back and look at how to rectify their image. Images dont just come from nowhere and there is always a way to fix a misconception (There are a few big name teams that i thought were donkey butts for a while at comp till i actually got to sit down and hang with them).
Forgive me if this doesnt make sense as i have been studying for the past 15 straight hours, but in summation:
1) You spend THOUSANDS of dollars for less than 30 minutes on the competition field. spend that time showing the world what you have, not trying to take away from what others do have.
2) If you think your public image is bad, do something about it to show others that it isnt.
3) And hey, lets all try and whine a little less.
p.s. DONT YOU GET MY YOU GRAMMAR NAZIS coughandrewschreibercough
p.p.s. KONY 2012 - do it for the kids (DIFTK)
p.p.p.s. Laura Samrak (or however you spell your username), you are a phenomenal troll. Almost as good as poohbear.
Rangel(kf7fdb)
12-03-2012, 00:45
There is absolutely no reason why any team cannot excel at first as long as they have the determination to do so. I'll use my team as an example. For years our team was struggling to win a regional after winning the world chairmen's award in 2008. The robot itself became the prime focus during build season and every year we did our very best to perfect it in every way we can. Every year we went more and more beyond to make each year a more successful year. For example in 2010, we built our first practice bot along with our regular robot. It was hard because we don't have a very large sponsor base and usually us students and mentors have to pitch in parts out of our own pockets. This practice bot though allowed us to continue developing and practicing with our robot and led us to having the best robot we ever had. In 2011 we extended our mentorship and for the first time had a mechanical engineer on our team and also founded a partnership with FRC 39/FTC 4314. Continuing to find ways to improve your team is key to being successful and it led us to finally winning a regional after 10 years. This year we are still improving ourselves. We don't have a cad class nor have ever used cad. So we taught ourselves cad and for the first time have cadded our robot before it is built. Just look at our past robots. You can see a dramatic improvement in each one and that is with the about the same number of students working on it and about the same amount of money. You are your own limitation. Kudos for 1114 and 2056 for making such spectacular robots every year. Seeing you guys and other "powerhouses" only drives us to be just as good as you guys.:]
Not touching the ongoing argument laced with incorrect assumptions, I largely agree with Bochek's last post.
I too was on the edge of my seat hoping that bridge wouldn't balance in Q59, in order to create a more interesting afternoon.
What surprised me was how interesting the afternoon got anyway.
I also agree that the bar in Canada has been raised so high by 1114 and 2056 that the other Canadian teams ARE improving in leaps and bounds. Look at Einstein 2011, Canadians were overrepresented there as a percentage of all FIRST teams by a huge margin.
I DO think its starting to drive the Canadian 2nd tier to start travelling to faraway lands because its the only way they stand a chance to win a regional. 1114 and 2056 have made such a habit of cleaning house, its a bit nauseating.
A number of commenters in this thread will attest that friday evening, I said that I thought the gap this year between 1114/2056 and 188/610 was much larger than in the past. I was astounded by the showing on saturday that not only were 188/610/3360 capable of beating them, but 907/1404/33xx (sorry, cant remember the number) did.
I think one of the biggest things that FIRST students, mentors, coaches, alumni, sponsors, etc. need to remember is that it does not matter if your team gets a blue banner. What matters is that all of the parties involved have their lives impacted in a positive manner. There are very few programs (in any area of study) where high school students will get to collaborate with industry professionals. When students are in college or in the field, students who participated in FIRST are going to say "I learned all about these engineering topics" and not "I won this regional when these teams were there!"
I almost wonder if mentors and coaches are judging how well they lead the program by how many banners they have hanging in their shop. Maybe a refocusing is needed on all levels to remember that FIRST isn't about winning competitions.
If you need proof, just look at the name.
ttldomination
12-03-2012, 01:01
There is a similar phenomenon down here in the Atlanta are with Team 2415 and their sweeping of regionals lately. I'm going to say it right now: They earned every single bit of the money They Raised, every single regional victory The Students won through intelligence, strategy, and skill, and they deserve all of the praise they get.
Dude, forget sabotaging 2415, 1771's new autonomous is sick. Gotta knock them off the coop bridge a couple of times. (<- This a joke.)
But honestly, I hope none of this crap goes down at Peachtree. Absolutely ridiculous.
- Sunny G.
ghostmachine360
12-03-2012, 01:06
Dude, forget sabotaging 2415, 1771's new autonomous is sick. Gotta knock them off the coop bridge a couple of times. (<- This a joke.)
But honestly, I hope none of this crap goes down at Peachtree. Absolutely ridiculous.
- Sunny G.
Better not. Fingers crossed, hoping there's a Team Update with reference to the scenario here before Peachtree, with an F/TF assigned for similar conduct.
Mike Martus
12-03-2012, 01:08
Update: By Mike Martus
I was asked to post this here and I think it is appropriate to do so.
Apology
I regret the postings made in Team 907's name. Below, you will find the link to Team 907's official apology. The thread had closed before I could post it.
Feel free to contact me if you wish to discuss this further. I will be speaking to Stan and Greg at GTR West. Please let them know.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...42&postcount=4 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1142842&postcount=4)
Sincerely,
Chris Perivolaris
Main Contact, Team 907
Below are my reasons for closing this thread.
I have been watching, reading, getting discouraged, uplifted at support, Confused at the poor information some people have about FIRST and what it is about. At times I am angry at how some people act ( They are even afraid to use their real affiliations with their team).....
This all said I think it be the time to cool down this thread........
I will revisit opening it in a few days....
Please do not start another "Same Subject" thread to get around this closure.
Mike Martus
Mike Martus
12-03-2012, 22:41
Posted for Mr. Lim. by Mike martus
Originally Posted by Mr. Lim
The 2012 Greater Toronto East Regional was an amazing experience. I would like to thank all the individuals involved in the planning, organization, and running of this regional. As a UOIT graduate (B.Ed 2009) I am fiercely proud of my alma mater, and it was nice to finally see an FRC event here.
I have taken the time to distil my thoughts about the GTR-E competition into a series of points and questions:
Meta-Coopertition:
This year’s coopertition bridge points gave teams the ability to significantly affect the overall rankings.
If teams at a regional agreed to not cooperate with a certain team, it would lower that team’s ranking.
If teams at a regional agreed to always cooperate with a certain team, it would increase that team’s ranking.
Let’s call this practice “meta-coopertating.” Teams are cooperating as a group, yet competing against others, by selectively agreeing and refusing to balance.
Is “meta-coopertition” within the rules/spirit of coopertition points?Coopertition Bridge Defense:
While “meta-coopertating,” teams may want to prevent the coopertition bridge from being balanced.
What level of defense on the coopertition bridge is permissible?Can we prevent other robots from getting to the bridge?
Can you block the entrance to the bridge to prevent others from getting on?
Can you drive on to the bridge, and leave it tipped such that no other robot can get on?
Can you intentionally touch the bridge with an unbalanced robot to negate the balance?
Can you lift/tip a bridge with robots on it to unbalance it?
Can you ram a bridge with robots on it to unbalance it?
Coopertition bridge BALANCING causes the alliance allegiances to become blurred (Blue and Red are working together). While DEFENDING the coopertition bridge, should Red and Blue allegiances still be respected? i.e. if Red1 wants to balance the bridge to help Blue1, but Red2 does not want to help, can Red2 play defense on Red1?
Is it the intent of the GDC that no defense be played on the coopertition bridge? Should we just sit there and watch a successful balance occur, even though it will harm our team’s success?
Does coopertition imply that all 6 teams on the field have agreed to balance the bridge, or just a minimum of 2? If all 6 cannot agree, we have not successfully coopertated, thus should any team on any alliance be free to defend it as they wish?
There are no explicit rules governing the above scenarios; however, we have made assumptions about the appropriateness of each. I have no idea who is right, and who is wrong. I am hoping the GDC will give us clarification shortly.Throwing Matches / Forcing Teams Not to Coopertate:
Blue alliance is the underdog in a match.
Blue alliance agrees to a strategy that requires Blue2 and Blue3 to balance on the alliance bridge for 20 points.
Without the 20 bridge points, it is a sure loss.
Red alliance approaches Blue3, and tries to convince them not to climb the alliance bridge but to coopertate instead.
Is the Red alliance (intentionally or not) asking Blue3 to throw the match?
Is it GP for Blue3 to unilaterally accept Red’s offer, knowing they have undermined any chance for the Blue alliance to win?
By trying to win, is the Blue alliance forcing Blue3 not to coopertate?
If Blue3 breaks from strategy and agrees to coopertate anyways, is the Blue alliance out of line if they defend the coopertition bridge?6v0:
The 6v0 has made a return this year, and there are some compelling reasons to do it.
Blue alliance, the overwhelming underdog, is willing to concede the match, as long as they can still guarantee themselves 2 coopertition points by successfully balancing the coopertition bridge.
Red alliance, the favourite, includes Red1, a “powerhouse” team that can shoot and balance extremely well.
To give both alliances the best chance to balance, Blue alliance asks Red1 to spend the full 2 minutes balancing the coopertition bridge.
Since Red1 will be unable to score baskets, the entire Blue alliance agrees to score minimal points, such that the Red alliance will still win the match.
Is this 6v0 considered GP?
During the match, Blue alliance made a grave mistake – they scored too many points and are winning the match by a few points.
Blue1 is balanced on their alliance bridge, and if they get off, the loss of those 10 points will ensure a Red win.
Blue alliance pleads with Blue1 to drive off the bridge, and they eventually comply.
Blue1 is extremely angry because they wanted to showcase their ability to balance.
Who should Blue1 direct their anger at? Blue alliance? Red alliance? Red1? Themselves?Imagine taking 36 teams of passionate students and mentors in a high-energy, competitive environment, with each trying to top the other in the most intense sport I have participated in.
Now imagine if those 36 teams all had very different answers to the questions above…
… it would create friction and misunderstanding between teams/individuals, as shown in this thread.
Many of you have heard 2nd and 3rd hand information from this regional. Most, if not all, of what I have heard is simply untrue. I respectfully ask the FRC community to understand that I will be addressing any issues that have arisen from the GTR-E directly and privately with the teams/individuals involved. There will be no mention of them on CD, or any other public forum.
To quote a fellow CDer, we should “rise above the hate.”
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