van door motor ID

[philso]

We just received some left side van door motor assemblies from a scrap yard. One has a round Bosch motor so it is probably not legal. The second one has a motor that looks like the one on the AndyMark web site. The label on it says "Delphi Interiors PN16635160 REV 001 TAIGENE 01.12.19 121301 102249". The one on the AndyMark website has the part number PN16635161 and looks like it is the may be a "right side" motor. The scrap yards had left and right and I took a guess. Is it likely that this motor will be legal to use?

Thanks.

Phil

[jspatz1]

The motor does not need to be the same model as the KOP van door motor, it only needs to be documented as a door, window, or seat motor coming from an ARA salvage yard that participates in the FIRST voucher program.

[EricH]

You got two motors, sold as van door motors, from a scrap yard. If this was under your ARA donation, that's perfectly legal--just make sure you have the documentation handy for your inspector.

If it's not under the ARA donation, you'll need to ask the GDC if motors donated by a scrapyard that isn't an ARA member are legal under the ARA donation.

[Nate Laverdure]

The van door motors provided in pre-2012 KOPs are:

2008: Taigene 16640238
2006: Bosch 16636815
2005: Taigene 16638628, 16644829
2004:
2003:
2002:
2001: Bosch
2000: Taigene
1999: Taigene

[philso]

Does it matter if I purchased the motors? I am not sure if the scrap yard I used is a member of ARA.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Phil,
If they are valid recycled window motors then they are legal.
Under R48
I. up to 2 window lift, seat, windshield wiper or door motors obtained through either the FIRST-Automotive Recyclers Association partnership or from a prior years’ KOP. We understand that many teams have not received ARA documentation when they picked similar motors. Is that your case?

[Nate Laverdure]

...many teams have not received ARA documentation when they picked similar motors.
Al, there's a Q&A entry that explicitly addresses this question:
Q. We have a sponsor of our team who owns and operates an automotive recycling yard. However he is not a member of the ARA. Are we able to use window motors recycled from vehicles in his yard?
A. Per Rule [R48-I], a motor from an old car must be obtained through either the FIRST-Automotive Recyclers Association partnership or from a prior years’ KOP to be legal for use.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Nate,
That is not the issue, teams are going to ARA recyclers who are not aware of any documentation. They simply hand over the motors.

[Nate Laverdure]

I understand. So the scrap motors must be sourced through the FIRST-ARA program, even though evidence of this is not being provided.

To the OP, then: I'd suggest you contact the scrapyard and ask if they're a member of the ARA.

[Gary Dillard]

Phil - searching the ARA site there are 11 ARA members within 25 miles of Houston. If he's not a member, maybe he would be willing to give the parts to another scrapyard who is so they could give them to you and you'll be (technically) legal.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Please communicate with your on site LRI. Let them look over the motor and make a decision then.

[philso]

Thanks for all the advice.

I called the scrap yard and they are not a member of ARA. It is amazing the range of prices ($30 to $600). I can understand that rules are rules but it seems that what the GDC should be more interested in what the motor is (what is on the label) than where one buys it.

Who/what is the LRI?

If I pick up another one from an ARA scrap yard, should I print out the member listing from the ARA web site? I find that most of the staff at these scrap yards are very "to the point" and are not likely to to be willing to go out of their way to send extra documentation.

Thanks again.

[Tristan Lall]

Who/what is the LRI?
Lead robot inspector (for your event).

If I pick up another one from an ARA scrap yard, should I print out the member listing from the ARA web site? I find that most of the staff at these scrap yards are very "to the point" and are not likely to to be willing to go out of their way to send extra documentation.
Print their listing. Also provide a copy of the bill of sale (hopefully describing the part for what it is). If it just provides a part number, see if you can cross-reference the number to a diagram or description (e.g. using another website that sells the part).

The inspector will have to make a ruling on whether that's enough proof—odds are it will be, but if the bill is just a piece of old-fashioned cash register tape, maybe a business card or something will help your case.

It is amazing the range of prices ($30 to $600).
Be careful for items over $400. Cost accounting rules may come into play (potentially even if you can convince them to give you one for free).

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Tristan,
The motors are not purchased from ARA members they are donated through a partnership with FIRST. Only motors from ARA members are acceptable but we have heard that not all ARA members are willing to produce the paperwork describing the part.
Phil,
Whatever documentation you can produce will help your cause. Work with the LRI at your event. He/she can make decisions at that time.

[Gary Dillard]

Tristan,
Only motors from ARA members are acceptable

Al, I'd like to clarify. That statement is true for motors that have never been included in the KOP. If he did have a motor with a part number that matched a previous year's KOP it wouldn't matter where it came from; GDC ruled that way in saying that FIRST choice didn't need to be added as an allowable source for the Van Door motor because it had been included in a previous year's KOP.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Gary you are correct I am just referring to ARA motors.

[philso]

Thanks again for the advice.

I will see if I can pick up a motor from an ARA scrap yard (and keep/print out appropriate documentation) so that I can be more confident that the LRI will accept it. Otherwise, we may end up running around frantically trying to borrow a legal motor off another team.

[meaubry]

Nate,
Hi - I'm not sure where you found those motor part #'s, but only one of the part numbers matched the list of van door motors that we used on vehicles. I checked all the old BOM's from everyone of the assemblies we ever built, and some of the #'s don't match anything we had on our parts lists. I worked in the engineering organization that invented and sold the PSD to the OEM's and we sourced the motors to the suppliers (Taigene & Valeo) also, until we were sold during the Delphi/GM bankruptcy.

I recall using Valeo motors on the really early PSD drive units @1999/2000 model years, until they were all replaced by Taigene motors, later. I don't recall using Bosch (I will check one more place tomorrow to confirm) - perhaps you may be getting the Window Lift motors mixed up with the PSD motors.

I sent a list of motor part #'s and vehicles used on, to Andy @Andymark, and they posted a note on the bottom of the Van Door motor web page on their site.

Also, keep in mind that the motor is just one part of the PSD Drive Unit, which might be the item the junk yards are pulling off the Vans. It is alot easier to remove the motor, once the entire Drive Unit is removed from the rear quarter of the Van. That also could be why the cost is higher than expected.

Hope this helps,
Mike

[philso]

The first two van door motors that I received were really the whole actuator assembly with a clutch(?), cable reels, cables and pulleys and cost $30 each. One of the motors had a part number off by just one (1) from the part number given on the AndyMark web site so I think that I got the left side motor and AndyMark is selling the right side motor. New from Ford, these assemblies go for $500 for one side and $580 for the other. From Chevrolet, they go for over $800 new. Some scrap yards are charging $175 - $200 for what sounds like the same thing. There are also some scrap yards are offering the whole door but I am not sure whether or not the motor is mounted in the door or if it is mounted in the body of the van.

[Nate Laverdure]

I'm not sure where you found those motor part #'s... perhaps you may be getting the Window Lift motors mixed up with the PSD motors.Thanks for your help and for checking my list against all your resources! This revised list should now reflect the historical documentation published by FIRST:
The van door motors provided in pre-2012 KOPs are: 2008: Taigene 16640238 (http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Community/FRC/FRC_Documents_and_Updates/2008_Assets/Manual/2008%20KoP%20Checklist-RevB.pdf) *incorrectly labeled in the KOP Checklist as a window motor; this is supported by other documentation (http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Community/FRC/FRC_Documents_and_Updates/2008_Assets/Manual/10%20-The%20Kit%20of%20Parts-RevB.pdf)
2006: Bosch 16636815 (http://www2.usfirst.org/2006comp/Manual/5-The_Robot_Rev_F.pdf)
2005: Taigene (http://www2.usfirst.org/2005comp/Section_5-The_Robot_rev_B.pdf)
2004: Taigene (http://www2.usfirst.org/2004comp/6-TheKit-RevB-incorporated.pdf)
2003: Bosch (http://www2.usfirst.org/2003comp/The_Robot.pdf) (specs (http://www2.usfirst.org/2003comp/Specs/Delphifisherpriceglobeinfo.pdf))
2000 (http://www2.usfirst.org/2000comp/RobotAppendixH-pt1.pdf): something
1999: Taigene and Bosch (http://www2.usfirst.org/1999comp/KitAlbum/GrayContainer.pdf)
1998 (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/1998-ladder-logic): somethingI'm not sure why we have a discrepancy with the 2008 part number. It's an honor to talk to you about it though!

[meaubry]

Nate and others -
I stand corrected, we did use Bosch motors for Power Sliding Doors, back in the early days.

My other resource confirmed that the 16636815 is a Bosch motor. 16640238 is a good part number and it was used on the 1998 M Van (Ext Wheel base only) a different motor part # was used on the regular wheel base, RH & LH sides and that part # was 16642739.

16644829 is a Taigene motor that was used in production for only a very short period of time, after which it was replaced with a different motor that had improved EMC suppression capability. It was used on the GM Van PSD.
One of the problems with trying to find old part #'s that match kit parts, is the motors donated for the kits do not necessarily match up year wise. A 1999 Kit motor was from a previous year vehicle, a 2008 Kit motor was from some previous year vehicle application - so, it gets a bit tricky.

Also, another key important thing to remember is that the part # of the motor in the kit may have only been used in production for a very short period of time (and this is also true of the window lift and other motors). Changes occur on a regular basis, so if you are looking for a specific part number for a motor, do not get too upset if the vehicle listed doesn't have that specific part number. Changes based on government regulations, or warrenty, or product improvements require re-identification and that happens on a pretty regular basis.

The motors donated for the Kits were most likely obsoleted motors that had been supeceded by an improved version.

I hope this helps,
Mike