Team 254 Presents: Skyfire [Archive]

Pat Fairbank

27-03-2012, 22:50

Team 254, NASA Ames Robotics "The Cheesy Poofs", proudly presents our 2012 robot: Skyfire.

http://team254.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/skyfire.jpg

Skyfire will compete at the Silicon Valley Regional, the Central Valley Regional, and the FIRST Championship.

Team 254 is sponsored by NASA Ames Research Center, BAE Systems, Ooyala, Gilbert Spray Coat, Pacific Coast Metal, Good Plastics, Polytec Products, Stalfab, S&S Welding, Modern Machine, Vivid-Hosting, Pricewaterhouse Coopers, Berger Manufacturing, WS Machine, Airtronics, Lumenetix & Bellarmine College Preparatory.

Mark Sheridan

27-03-2012, 22:53

Wow! that is cool!

Austin2046

27-03-2012, 22:58

that is a beautiful looking machine :yikes:

jblay

27-03-2012, 22:59

Looks like the result of 254 2006 and 254 2009 having a night of passion.

Can't believe it's been 4 weeks of competition season and we are seeing the poofs for the first time. An amazing robot as usual.

Jay1986

27-03-2012, 22:59

Similar to 2056 and 341 but love it. Cant wait to see it in action!

The Lucas

27-03-2012, 23:01

The wait is finally over!

Is that 6 motors on the drive?

tzjin

27-03-2012, 23:02

Fantastic! SVR will be fun indeed! :)

ratdude747

27-03-2012, 23:03

The conveyor system reminds me of the one used by 1747 and 1646 in 2009... the only differences were which direction the shooter was facing and that they were based on wide, not narrow chassis.

IIRC 254's 2009 bot also had a similar system.

Looks like a slick design...

Tom Bottiglieri

27-03-2012, 23:04

The wait is finally over!

Is that 6 motors on the drive?

We originally had 6 motor drive, but have since pulled the 550s and reallocated them to other places.

Jay1986

27-03-2012, 23:06

Is there a camera anywhere on that beast?

Justin Montois

27-03-2012, 23:15

Gorgeous. Well worth the wait.

JABot67

27-03-2012, 23:16

This is about the sleekest robot I've ever seen. (Well, barring 254/968's 2008 robots.) Good luck at SVR and Central Valley!

Is there a camera anywhere on that beast?

I too wonder about the location of the camera on this robot.

IndySam

27-03-2012, 23:17

Video or it doesn't exist :)

Jay Meldrum

27-03-2012, 23:18

Nice looking bot! Video to follow? :D

rcmolloy

27-03-2012, 23:19

If Pat, Tom, and the rest of the 254 crew is alright with it, I do have video of Skyfire and Encore from a few weekends ago.

If you guys have a reveal video in the works, I'll save it.

NickE

27-03-2012, 23:20

The plan is for a reveal video to be released in the next week or so. The whole team has been iterating like crazy to boost the performance of this machine and we haven't had time to make the video quite yet.

ablatner

27-03-2012, 23:20

Nice looking robot as usual. I can't wait to see it perform at SVR. The intake is (very) similar to 971's, and still a very good idea. What's your shooter setup, and what kind of ball detection do you have in the belts? Our programmers had me include over a dozen limit switches this year, and they are some of the most annoying things on the robot.

Cory

27-03-2012, 23:21

If Pat, Tom, and the rest of the 254 crew is alright with it, I do have video of Skyfire and Encore from a few weekends ago.

If you guys have a reveal video in the works, I'll save it.

We will have something to come after SVR.

TeamSpyder1622

27-03-2012, 23:23

I have been waiting for this one for awhile. It looks incredibly similar to 1538's robot http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103618&highlight=1538 with the exception of the pickup in the back.

Steven Sigley

27-03-2012, 23:25

Your bumper mounts look interesting, care to detail what you use?

nahstobor

27-03-2012, 23:27

Great looking machine, I can't wait to see it in action. Will there be a release of the build blog again this year?

EagleEngineer

27-03-2012, 23:29

All i have to say is "wow". That thing looks amazing, best of luck at SVR, CVR, & Champs. :)

PayneTrain

27-03-2012, 23:30

Am I really tired, or did I not see a camera on the robot?

Cory

27-03-2012, 23:30

Great looking machine, I can't wait to see it in action. Will there be a release of the build blog again this year?

We will likely do that at the end of the season.

Gray Adams

27-03-2012, 23:34

This is about the sleekest robot I've ever seen. (Well, barring 254/968's 2008 robots.) Good luck at SVR and Central Valley!

I too wonder about the location of the camera on this robot.

I saw a camera temporarily attached right in front of the flywheel of their practice bot last week.

Chinmay

27-03-2012, 23:38

looks like it can do a lot... can it fly? ;)

DampRobot

27-03-2012, 23:44

Cory

27-03-2012, 23:48

A temporarily mounted camera points to a potentially under-developed autoaim and autopower software. In my experience, these two pieces of code can make a decent robot a superior robot. I know that the Space Cookies were having difficulties with their code at Davis, which could imply similar difficulties for the Cheesy Poofs. Anyone from 254 care to comment on the software features of this robot?

We'll show you...

In two days ;)

at any rate, it's our opinion that relying on technology to improve your driver is a bad thing. We utilize the camera, but it will not make or break us.

Aren_Hill

27-03-2012, 23:51

I really want a closeup of the linkage in the bridge manipulator, curious what the motion path of it deploying looks like.

BJC

27-03-2012, 23:53

Awesome looking robot.

Some thoughts:

1. That bridge handler/ ball collector looks farily optimized to take balls off the bridge in auto with little effort.

2. There appears to be lots of room for a bridge balancer on this robot. Knowing 254...

3. two position hood means they shoot from the front of the fender and from the key.

4. Those "legs" on the collector maybe also somehow act as an incline to help the robot get over the barrier?

5. I'm glad we don't have to worry about playing that robot this week!

Regards, Bryan

Peck

27-03-2012, 23:54

They don't need a camera, they just use their brains. who cares if it takes 3 times as long for a lower quality.

looks good though i wonder is balls can fall in the electrical panel.

Wetzel

27-03-2012, 23:56

I'm looking forward to seeing this in person at Championship.

connor.worley

28-03-2012, 00:10

Looks great, can't wait to see it on Thursday!

JABot67

28-03-2012, 00:12

We'll show you...

In two days ;)

at any rate, it's our opinion that relying on technology to improve your driver is a bad thing. We utilize the camera, but it will not make or break us.

I like this attitude. My opinion on vision targeting is that it's something to do if your programmers have nothing else to do. Even so, most years it's a waste of time. This year I was so sure that vision targeting would be necessary, and it turns out it is not.

Andrew Lawrence

28-03-2012, 00:30

I like this attitude. My opinion on vision targeting is that it's something to do if your programmers have nothing else to do. Even so, most years it's a waste of time. This year I was so sure that vision targeting would be necessary, and it turns out it is not.

When do programmers have nothing to do??? :confused:

Anyways, great robot 254! You never fail to impress me! This just makes me want SVR to come that much more.

See you, and Skyfire, in a few days!

Also....what's with the wedgetop tread? Going away from blue nitrile for some reason?

DampRobot

28-03-2012, 00:34

We'll show you...

In two days ;)

at any rate, it's our opinion that relying on technology to improve your driver is a bad thing. We utilize the camera, but it will not make or break us.

Funny you say this. In the past, software augmentation of the driver seemed to be a large part of 254's success. For example, 2011's "90 degree turn" feature allowed the robot to turn under software control. A human driver simply wouldn't have been able to react as fast as the C-Rio, because of your drive train's crazy speed.

I do look forward to seeing you preform at SVR, camera software or no. As everyone's said, this looks like an extremely strong robot.

NickE

28-03-2012, 00:37

Funny you say this. In the past, software augmentation of the driver seemed to be a large part of 254's success. For example, 2011's "90 degree turn" feature allowed the robot to turn under software control. A human driver simply wouldn't have been able to react as fast as the C-Rio, because of your drive train's crazy speed.In 2011, we did not have any drivetrain automation in teleoperated mode and our drivers had no issue turning under speed. The one exception is that the auto-score routine would back up the robot slightly after a tube was scored on the bottom rack (but scoring on the bottom rack was rare for us). We have advanced control software designed to make the drivers' lives easier but we avoid removing control from the driver.

DampRobot

28-03-2012, 00:38

In 2011, we did not have any drivetrain automation in teleoperated mode and our drivers had no issue turning under speed. The one exception is that the auto-score routine would back up the robot slightly after a tube was scored on the bottom rack (but scoring on the bottom rack was rare for us). We have advanced control software designed to make the drivers' lives easier but we avoid removing control from the driver.

Thank you for the correction. I guess I was mistaken.

Cory

28-03-2012, 00:41

Funny you say this. In the past, software augmentation of the driver seemed to be a large part of 254's success. For example, 2011's "90 degree turn" feature allowed the robot to turn under software control. A human driver simply wouldn't have been able to react as fast as the C-Rio, because of your drive train's crazy speed.

I do look forward to seeing you preform at SVR, camera software or no. As everyone's said, this looks like an extremely strong robot.

There's a difference between software that acts as a crutch and software that enables a good driver to do more things.

We prefer the latter.

BHOP

28-03-2012, 00:54

How many hours did cory spend on the CNC this year?

AveryS

28-03-2012, 00:56

Looking good :)

ratdude747

28-03-2012, 01:06

We have advanced control software designed to make the drivers' lives easier but we avoid removing control from the driver.

Sounds like you are taking the "Boeing" approach to controls as opposed to the "Airbus" approach (in terms of who has ultimate control)... I like it.

Especially if the only shots are from the key and fender, to be resonably sucessful, all one needs is a good driver, a live camera feed with crosshairs (I wrote code for that last year), and decent shooter controls via a turret or super-fine drivetrain control and a decent combination of coarse and fine shoot trajectory controls. All in all, not that much compared to full auto camera code.

Gray Adams

28-03-2012, 01:46

I've spent the last 10 minutes trying to figure out if this picture is a render, a photo, or some kind of combination.

I still have no idea. Some parts just look too perfect to be a photo.

Tristan Lall

28-03-2012, 01:53

Sounds like you are taking the "Boeing" approach to controls as opposed to the "Airbus" approach (in terms of who has ultimate control)... I like it.
Will those controls allow the driver to deliberately miss? That would be kind of analogous to how Boeings are more willing to let you depart controlled flight (with persistent warnings); Airbuses will just refuse those commands.

In truth, on both aircraft types, the computers are firmly in charge of the fly-by-wire controls. Boeings just provide tactile feedback through the yoke and throttles; Airbuses don't.

Chickenonastick

28-03-2012, 01:57

I've spent the last 10 minutes trying to figure out if this picture is a render, a photo, or some kind of combination.

I still have no idea. Some parts just look too perfect to be a photo.

254 isn't just good at building their robot. They're also good at taking pictures of it. (https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/422016_353017818071280_122857901087274_1065315_155 8296026_n.jpg)

Gray Adams

28-03-2012, 02:01

254 isn't just good at building their robot. They're also good at taking pictures of it. (https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/422016_353017818071280_122857901087274_1065315_155 8296026_n.jpg)

I can't figure out the timeframe either. Looking at the polycord, pneumatic cylinders, and some other things, it looks impossible to be real. But then looking at the bumpers, it looks too real to be rendered. This can't be their competition bot (yet anyway), but that plastic looks too perfect to have been used for practice.

NickE

28-03-2012, 02:23

I can't figure out the timeframe either. Looking at the polycord, pneumatic cylinders, and some other things, it looks impossible to be real. But then looking at the bumpers, it looks too real to be rendered. This can't be their competition bot (yet anyway), but that plastic looks too perfect to have been used for practice.The picture was taken on ship day of the competition bot. It will look a little different after some modifications are performed on Thursday at SVR.

Travis Hoffman

28-03-2012, 03:44

But...but...Skyfire was an Autobot! :p You must be using the he was originally deceived by the Decepticons loophole. /80'snerd

Cory

28-03-2012, 03:46

But...but...Skyfire was an Autobot! :p

He was originally a Decepticon.

thefro526

28-03-2012, 07:41

I really love how this robot resembles your 2006 machine but is a totally different beast in itself. You guys have really outdone yourselves in terms of robot finishing this year, I believe.

Out of curiosity, how do you intend on using your open hopper? Is it for catching your own missed shots, human loading (ala 2006) or both/neither?

Brandon Holley

28-03-2012, 08:40

Something tells me the bot competing this weekend will have improvements to make it even more deadly than the one we're seeing here :rolleyes:

Awesome job as usual Poofs. Your robots are some of the most beautiful pieces of technology assembled in FIRST.

Good luck in the next 2 weeks, your east coast friends on 125 are pulling for you.

-Brando

Andrew Lawrence

28-03-2012, 09:04

Kim Masi

28-03-2012, 09:06

meh, I guess it's OK...:rolleyes:

Jay Meldrum

28-03-2012, 09:52

My opinion on vision targeting is that it's something to do if your programmers have nothing else to do. Even so, most years it's a waste of time. This year I was so sure that vision targeting would be necessary, and it turns out it is not.

I would not say it is necessary, but to reach a high shot accuracy, camera auto aim is a must.

We tried having our driver (who is quite good) aim it himself. It took much more time, and yielded much less accurate results then using the auto aim. This could be very bot specific, but this is how it has worked out for us.

Looking forward for the reveal video guys!

Nick Lawrence

28-03-2012, 10:10

Beautiful machine. I too am interested in how you guys are going to use your hopper.

Looks like there's room for a stinger on there too.

Congrats guys, I see a return to Einstein again in your future.

-Nick

JesseK

28-03-2012, 10:14

The two-tone effect of a blue frame with smokey polycarb is always a really nice effect that highlights the elegance of the 'Poof bots. I really like how it looks as if it could be sold as a product.

Now for some fun speculation:

1.) The drive train looks like it'd bottom out on the bump -- the wheels are too small and spaced too far apart. Of course, it does look like they could put 6" wheels on there without a problem.

2.) It looks like the legs on the bridge lowerer have an extra hole. The Cheesy Poofs don't usually do random extra holes. I expect some 'secret' manipulator will go here...

3.) Given the pneumatic cyllinder that lowers the intake, and the fact that the balls rely on the bumper for lift into the robot, I don't know if this robot can pick up directly from the bridge. The legs will always go to the ground, and the angle of the bridge may cause too much compression on the balls that are on the bridge for them to come into the robot. This is at first study though, so who knows.

4.) This bot will possibly be the best 'rebounder' bot in the game, given the open hopper in the front. The rebounds may be rare, but they'll be pretty awesome to see if they look like they're done on purpose.

I look forward to seeing this bot in person!

Jared Russell

28-03-2012, 10:18

1.) The drive train looks like it'd bottom out on the bump -- the wheels are too small and spaced too far apart. Of course, it does look like they could put 6" wheels on there without a problem.

I would expect them to have something similar to 971 and 1868...a chassis lift skid to let them absolutely fly over the barrier.

Gregor

28-03-2012, 11:30

Bridge mechanism - I'm calling it.

But wait! Why is it on the blue alliance?!

Bet you their ball manipulator appendage doubles as a bridge manipulator and possibly something to pull other bots up the bridge, similar to 1114's, as seen in this video (http://youtu.be/-QTX__5JzN) at 4:14

Travis Hoffman

28-03-2012, 11:40

I would not say it is necessary, but to reach a high shot accuracy, camera auto aim is a must.

We tried having our driver (who is quite good) aim it himself. It took much more time, and yielded much less accurate results then using the auto aim. This could be very bot specific, but this is how it has worked out for us.

You don't need a camera to have extremely high accuracy (but it certainly helps increase confidence in ramping up throughput).

If you have a repeatable shooter, then pick your hot spots on the field, line up, and execute the shot the same way every. single. time. Practice makes perfect.

Every shot our robot took in the Wisconsin finals was manually aimed, with no camera present on the robot. We hit every shot we took and made at least 5 shots in each match. Tyler, our pilot, found an aiming method in the semis that is very intuitive for him, one he is eager to continue using. Now he just has to collect ammo better/faster so we can fire more salvos. I'm actually impressed by what he can do with our *piddly* little single-wide inside the frame perimeter collection method, but I know we can do better - guess what we're working on this week? :)

A skilled and practiced drive team (I can't imagine how much practice time 254's crew has been getting at home!) operating a machine with the potential capability like 254's could do even more damage in full manual due to faster/easier collecting and shorter times between salvos (provided the ammo is there to collect). I have no doubt that 254's machine can be killer when manually aimed.

Now develop this kind of manual driver skill and then add a layer of automatic aiming control on top of it, with the ability to quickly bypass the system during any malfunctions? Then you are truly deadly.

Think of it as Top Gun for robots *flashbacks to 2004 IRI talent show*. Don't rely upon missiles only. Learn how to dogfight and maneuver for a shot.

trilogy2826

28-03-2012, 11:50

I would not say it is necessary, but to reach a high shot accuracy, camera auto aim is a must.

Myself and another mentor on 2826 argued this on several occasions leading up to the Wisconsin regional. Since on our practice field, vision targeting was working perfectly, it seemed a moot point.

Upon arriving at WI, we immediately had issues with our vision and the FMS interfacing in an unknown manner, forcing us to abandon vision tracking. Using the Axis camera and a well calibrated crosshair on the DS, we were able to score an average of 11 3 pt shots from the key through elims with a max of 13 made of 16 shot (last 3 missed accounted to driver pulling away as shots were fired).

Basically, I second that vision as an augmentation can be a benefit, but a well trained drive crew can pull off some amazing things when push comes to shove.

Good luck with Skyfire. The poofs are undoubtedly a role model for us all!

Jay Meldrum

28-03-2012, 12:56

Now develop this kind of manual driver skill and then add a layer of automatic aiming control on top of it, with the ability to quickly bypass the system during any malfunctions? Then you are truly deadly.

100% agree with this statement

254 isn't just good at building their robot. They're also good at taking pictures of it. (https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/422016_353017818071280_122857901087274_1065315_155 8296026_n.jpg)

Totally thought it was a rendering as well. Crazy.

Tom Bottiglieri

28-03-2012, 13:18

I can give a bit more insight into how our software process works.

For the most part, we try to find mechanical solutions to everything. Once we get our robot to the point where extra mechanics and driver practice starts to result in diminishing returns, we start adding automation on top. We try not to do anything in software that the driver can't do on their own, in case of failures. It would be terrible for our camera to come unplugged during finals and be a sitting duck because of it. Sure, the software will make it faster, but that's just gravy once you have a properly trained operation crew.

We do have auto aim on our robot. We use it in autonomous and the driver has a button to activate it in teleop. To tell you the truth though, he hasn't really needed to use it. Between intuition, practice, and a live feed from the camera back to the DS, auto aim doesn't save enough time to justify the risk of practicing with it. We plan on improving this part of the code as time goes on and maybe our strategy will change, but for now it makes sense to give more practice cycles to the drivers than the programmers.

Travis Covington

28-03-2012, 13:31

This can't be their competition bot (yet anyway), but that plastic looks too perfect to have been used for practice.

A few quick fixes were made in Photoshop to make some of the weird looking things appear correct, but this is what it looks like inside the bag for the most part. I did some color corrections and some minor touch ups, but this picture is 95% as-photographed. The practice bot is beat up and abused in comparison.

vikesrock777

28-03-2012, 14:52

No surprises, the Poofs have a beautiful looking robot. I have one question for you (and any other teams that have a hopper.) Is there any worry of incurring a G22 by balls falling into the hopper when you already have three? Is there some mechanism I'm not seeing that prevents this?

TheMadCADer

28-03-2012, 15:27

Bet you their ball manipulator appendage doubles as a bridge manipulator and possibly something to pull other bots up the bridge, similar to 1114's, as seen in this video (http://youtu.be/-QTX__5JzN) at 4:14

It appears that your video link is broken... :(

Akash Rastogi

28-03-2012, 15:29

Is all the tubing on that bot 1/16" wall? How light is this guy?

Beautiful machine yet again.

ejSabathia

28-03-2012, 15:36

Is all the tubing on that bot 1/16" wall? How light is this guy?

Beautiful machine yet again.

With all the planned updates SKYFIRE is going to be a heavy weight.

EDIT: The drive chassis is mostly 1/8" wall and the super structure is almost exclusively 1/16" wall

TD78

28-03-2012, 16:57

With all the planned updates SKYFIRE is going to be a heavy weight.

EDIT: The drive chassis is mostly 1/8" wall and the super structure is almost exclusively 1/16" wall

It looks like most of the upper structure is all 2"x1" tubing...I've only found that in 1/8" wall. Did you guys find that type of extrusion in 1/16" wall?

Cory

28-03-2012, 17:00

It looks like most of the upper structure is all 2"x1" tubing...I've only found that in 1/8" wall. Did you guys find that type of extrusion in 1/16" wall?

Yes. It is very common and can be found at almost any metal supplier (at least around here). Online places like McMaster often do not have it.

Mk.32

28-03-2012, 17:02

It looks like most of the upper structure is all 2"x1" tubing...I've only found that in 1/8" wall. Did you guys find that type of extrusion in 1/16" wall?

Cory beat me to it.

And absolutely awesome robot you guys. Inspiring as always, I can only dream that my team one day will be able to produce a machine of such elegance but that is why we do this. Cannot wait to see it on the webcast.

TD78

28-03-2012, 17:05

Interesting. Thanks. The supplier I go through only has 1/8" wall...I'll have to do some hunting.

p.s. great bot guys. very clean and looks like it will be killer as always. i'll be by in st. louis to check it out.

Tristan Lall

28-03-2012, 18:29

Yes. It is very common and can be found at almost any metal supplier (at least around here). Online places like McMaster often do not have it.
Is it 6061 or 6063? (Online Metals (http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=1203&step=4&showunits=inches&id=1269&top_cat=60) and many (http://www.myaluminumsupply.com/cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5) others (http://www.alascop.com/pdf/al/rect_tubing.pdf) have it it in 6063-T5 or -T52, which aren't especially strong compared to 6061-T6 or similar.)

Cory

28-03-2012, 18:32

Is it 6061 or 6063? (Online Metals (http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=1203&step=4&showunits=inches&id=1269&top_cat=60) and many (http://www.myaluminumsupply.com/cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5) others (http://www.alascop.com/pdf/al/rect_tubing.pdf) have it it in 6063-T5 or -T52, which aren't especially strong compared to 6061-T6 or similar.)

6061.

sdcantrell56

29-03-2012, 09:49

Finding 1/16" wall 2x1 extrusion in Georgia is nigh impossible. It seems all you Cali teams grab it all up out there.

Peck

29-03-2012, 11:38

Finding 1/16" wall 2x1 extrusion in Georgia is nigh impossible. It seems all you Cali teams grab it all up out there.

If u have any engineering companies for soponsors, ask them if they use it and if they do, how they get it. companies often learn about side channels that can be used.

Akash Rastogi

29-03-2012, 11:49

Finding 1/16" wall 2x1 extrusion in Georgia is nigh impossible. It seems all you Cali teams grab it all up out there.

Same up here as well. All we've managed to find are a few places willing to do it as a custom extrusion.

Travis Hoffman

29-03-2012, 11:54

Same up here as well. All we've managed to find are a few places willing to do it as a custom extrusion.

As is also the case in Ohio.

Maybe we're overlooking the obvious thing to do - request that 254 contact their metals source and see if they can offer the material for sale to other teams?

Looking at their robot pic and the sponsors on the side, you might also be able to guess which of them are the likely sources of their metal materials. ;)

NickE

29-03-2012, 12:12

We buy our 6061 from Coast Aluminum, a chain with a number of locations on the west coast.

kaliken

29-03-2012, 14:59

For those in the Los Angeles area,

We order from Coast Aluminum as well they have a warehouse right next to... Mcmaster-Carr!!! Totally a dangerous combination! here is the url http://www.coastaluminum.com/

Though for our 2x1x1/16th we have been using a small outfit in American International Metals in Anaheim. They have been great to the team. http://www.americaninternationalmetals.com/

For those of you out of state I do know these places will ship orders. I would suggest ordering prior to the build season. We ordered a bunch of thin tubed material prior to the season. As we typically use thin walled 1x1 or thin walled 2x1. We know eventually it will get all used!

sdcantrell56

29-03-2012, 15:13

For those of you out of state I do know these places will ship orders. I would suggest ordering prior to the build season. We ordered a bunch of thin tubed material prior to the season. As we typically use thin walled 1x1 or thin walled 2x1. We know eventually it will get all used!

We're going to start doing that. It seems difficult to get 6061 .062" wall 1x1 down here as well without shipping it.

AdamHeard

29-03-2012, 15:31

Triple B

29-03-2012, 15:50

nice

sanddrag

29-03-2012, 20:48

Andrew Lawrence

29-03-2012, 21:05

They also have the infamous 2x2x1/16" wall.

Why is that infamous?

Cory

29-03-2012, 21:14

Why is that infamous?

Its practically the holy grail of aluminum tube. Nearly impossibe to find.

Gregor

29-03-2012, 22:35

It appears that your video link is broken... :(

Hmm sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QTX__5JzN8&feature=results_video&lr=1&ob=0

Heres this.

rsisk

30-03-2012, 01:29

I would expect them to have something similar to 971 and 1868...a chassis lift skid to let them absolutely fly over the barrier.

Confirmed, saw it in action today.

Eugene Fang

30-03-2012, 01:34

looks like it can do a lot... can it fly? ;)

Wow, look who was right? ;)

Siri

30-03-2012, 06:57

I would expect them to have something similar to 971 and 1868...a chassis lift skid to let them absolutely fly over the barrier.

Hmm sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QTX__5JzN8&feature=results_video&lr=1&ob=0

Heres this.How useful are these (on 1114 or 254)? Are they actually pulling up their alliance partner? Or is it primarily a way to stay together/not tip off opposite ends of the bridge? (Or something else?)

thefro526

30-03-2012, 07:32

How useful are these (on 1114 or 254)? Are they actually pulling up their alliance partner? Or is it primarily a way to stay together/not tip off opposite ends of the bridge? (Or something else?)

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but, I believe, at least in the case of 1114's, it makes double balancing much, much easier. If you look at how it's used it essentially allows one robot to do all of the balancing work versus having two independently moving machines.

Andrew Lawrence

30-03-2012, 09:40

This robot is so much smaller in person...

Good luck today 254! We'll be cheering for you!

DampRobot

30-03-2012, 10:22

Its practically the holy grail of aluminum tube. Nearly impossibe to find.

Not all that dificult... we got some from Alan Steel. Although we had some issues with crushing, it has helped us drop 3 pounds!

AdamHeard

30-03-2012, 10:42

Another Coast Aluminum customer here. Difficult to get a receipt out of those folks. Insanely high prices for small orders too. But, they have what we need and deliver it to my shop floor.

Coast Aluminum for open shapes, Fry Steel for solid shapes (SO inexpensive).

This isn't my experience with them at all, when we order a single tube we still get free shipping and the same price as when we order $5k.

sanddrag

30-03-2012, 15:50

This isn't my experience with them at all, when we order a single tube we still get free shipping and the same price as when we order $5k.Interesting. One of my orders with them came to over $11/lb for what I ordered (6061 box tubing, just a couple 20ft pieces). I had three orders and never received a receipt for any of them until after numerous requests for them. Perhaps it's a difference between credit card purchases and account purchases.

R.C.

30-03-2012, 15:52

This isn't my experience with them at all, when we order a single tube we still get free shipping and the same price as when we order $5k.

Same here, the fresno branch has been quite friendly and more than helpful to us.

-RC

P.J.

02-04-2012, 23:23

Sooo is there any video of this machine out there yet? I'm dying to see it :D

I have one or two questions about it but those could potentially be answered by video so I'm waiting to see one.

Gray Adams

02-04-2012, 23:42

Sooo is there any video of this machine out there yet? I'm dying to see it :D

I have one or two questions about it but those could potentially be answered by video so I'm waiting to see one.

There are a few, though unfortunately too few, videos of eliminations at SVR on youtube. QFs show them shooting exclusively from the key, Semis are entirely from the fender, and I believe Finals were a little bit of both.

R.C.

02-04-2012, 23:44

604 should have vids of SVR up soon.

-RC

mjustice66

02-04-2012, 23:49

Video of 254 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imk-YKfsh2s&feature=BFa&list=UUQCyjH0rldw9cyVzZ_MxNZg&lf=plcp)

Heres some video of them at SVR last week.

carrillo694

03-04-2012, 00:42

Found this video today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjDQWCc-HSE

Nathan Streeter

03-04-2012, 01:27

Found this video today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjDQWCc-HSE

Based off the video of this single match, I have to say 254 and 971 look very good, but by no means untouchable (and not up to their ordinary standards, in my mind). This post may come across as somewhat negative, but chalk that up to the expectations I've come to have of these teams.

After watching this match, I was rather flabbergasted that the red alliance only scored 67 (a score higher than any at our first regional, GSR, I might point out)... Between the double balance, the strong auto, and all that teleop scoring I was expecting something around 80! Then I watched the video again (with some rewinding and fast-forwarding), and counted up the points as shown below... thankfully my total matched the official score, barring any penalties.

Hybrid: 23pts
- 254: 2 of 2(h) from key, 1 of 2(h) from bridge
- 971: 1 of 4(m), 2 balls gathered from partner

Teleop: 24pts (all scoring high)
- 254: 1 of 3, 1 of 3, 1 of 3, 2 of 2 (total: 5 of 11)
- 971 1 of 2, 2 of 3, 0 of 1 (total: 3 of 6)

Bridge: 20pts
- 971 and 766 balance

Even though I was seeing an overwhelming number of shots taken (due to both teams' astonishing driving and harvesting skills), both teams had unusually low scoring percentages, as compared to teams like 1114, 2054, 67, and 341 that 254 usually competes alongside. Given the earlier talk in this thread about 254 preferring to go without camera aim, I found this interesting. This year certainly places a higher value on shot accuracy compared to years like 2006 and 2009 where a large hopper could overcome a flaw in shooter accuracy...

These comparisons really ought to at least be taken with a grain of salt because 1) this was 254's first event, while the other teams I've mentioned have all had 3 full events so far, 2) I only witnessed one match, and 3) a few shots (particularly some of 254's) would've gone in had they not been bumped at an inopportune moment.

I hold both 254's and 971's robots (in the past and present) in the utmost regard, and am simply noting one prevalent flaw where none usually exist. In order for only one weakness to be noticeable, the team must be very strong...

Edit:
After watching the SF matches, it seems that 254 (and 971) are both substantially more accurate from the fender with only one or two missed shots. Both were shooting primarily from the fender in these matches due to less defense being played on them. It seems that in this case defense on these two teams when at the fender had a direct impact of about -15pts.

Gray Adams

03-04-2012, 01:49

Based off the video of this single match, I have to say 254 and 971 look very good, but by no means untouchable (and not up to their ordinary standards, in my mind). This post may come across as somewhat negative, but chalk that up to the expectations I've come to have of these teams.

I would tend to agree, but when left to play with their fender, I don't think anyone could score points faster. It's downright scary watching them systematically score points when unabated. However, we held them to 14 teleop points in one of the QF matches (not sure about the other) because of our defense forcing them to make key shots. If and when they start knocking in points from the key consistently and accurately, the only way to beat them is going to be hiding the ammo somehow.

dkearle

03-04-2012, 01:50

These comparisons really ought to at least be taken with a grain of salt because 1) this was 254's first event, while the other teams I've mentioned have all had 3 full events so far, 2) I only witnessed one match, and 3) a few shots (particularly some of 254's) would've gone in had they not been bumped at an inopportune moment.

Team 254 did have the highest scoring match of the SVR qualifying rounds (Q-83). Their alliance that included Team 3256 (WarriorBorgs) and Team 4086 (Team Tesla - an impressive rookie team from Twin Falls, Idaho) scored 80 points. It was definitely more challenging for teams to score in the elimination rounds during both Hybrid and Teleoperated modes. Especially during hybrid mode there were so many balls heading toward the same target at the same time, the balls often bounced off each other missing their targets.

Cory

03-04-2012, 02:02

Based off the video of this single match, I have to say 254 and 971 look very good, but by no means untouchable (and not up to their ordinary standards, in my mind). This post may come across as somewhat negative, but chalk that up to the expectations I've come to have of these teams.

No offense taken. We are ecstatic to have come away with a win, but we don't think we played all that well either.

We had a lot of work to do on the robot on Thursday and got very little time on the field to tune autonomous/shooter values.

We also had a hard time with the brand new balls during elims.

We expect to perform much better in all aspects of our game at CVR this week.

Nuttyman54

03-04-2012, 02:05

Nathan has some astute observations. Unfortunately, that Finals match is actually one of alliance's our worst as far as shot accuracy (in both teleop and hybrid) and alliance coordination goes.

I can also vouch that 254's accuracy late in qualifying rounds was very VERY good, from fender and key, but they were unable to get it sufficiently re-tuned in eliminations for the new balls, IIRC. This affects 971 as well, however we have had a previous regional's worth of practice against fender defense, so it slowed us down us less.

Both teams are working on improving shot accuracy. I cannot speak for 254, but I know how hard they work to make their robots perform at the highest level, and I'm sure they will have an answer to the consistency problems for CVR and Championships.

If anyone has video of 254's last qualifying match, I highly recommend people watch it. It is spectacular.

Chickenonastick

03-04-2012, 02:42

If anyone has video of 254's last qualifying match, I highly recommend people watch it. It is spectacular.

I wholeheartedly agree, that was a great match.

Adam Freeman

03-04-2012, 09:00

Even though I was seeing an overwhelming number of shots taken (due to both teams' astonishing driving and harvesting skills), both teams had unusually low scoring percentages, as compared to teams like 1114, 2054, 67, and 341 that 254 usually competes alongside. Given the earlier talk in this thread about 254 preferring to go without camera aim, I found this interesting.

It takes a lot of tuning to get these wheeled shooters to shoot accurately. Especially with the amount of ball variation that is out there....not to mention the field crew switching old balls for new ones whenever they feel like it.

We have been to 3 competitions and are just now getting our shooter near the accuracy that we were planning for when we designed it. We did not shoot very well at our first event either, it just so happened neither did anyone else.

I am sure with some dedicated tuning, 254 will have this awesome machine knocking down shots very soon.

OZ_341

03-04-2012, 09:49

It takes a lot of tuning to get these wheeled shooters to shoot accurately. Especially with the amount of ball variation that is out there....
Agreed it took Jared and our programming team a very long time to hit a "sweet spot" which could handle both new and old basketballs. Even with this tuning, you will still have a random undershot or overshot, once in a while.
We also found in Boston (the hard way) that the adjustment process also needs to take wheel wear into account. After 36 matches our wheel had degraded to the point where the COF and compression was not at its original specs.
That being said 254 is obviously the kind of team that is going to continuously and consistently improve right up through St. Louis. It is just a matter of time and "piano tuning". Good luck this weekend.

Karthik

03-04-2012, 10:14

Even though I was seeing an overwhelming number of shots taken (due to both teams' astonishing driving and harvesting skills), both teams had unusually low scoring percentages, as compared to teams like 1114, 2054, 67, and 341 that 254 usually competes alongside.

Yes, but remember that you're comparing 254 at their first event to 67, 341, 1114 & 2056 at their third events. I know I'm basically restating what Adam and Al have already said, but this game requires an insane amount of tweaking. We were pretty embarrassed by our shooting performance in Week 2 at GTR East; since that time we've been working non stop to get things perfect, and our shooting percentage stats reflect this. The Poofs are by far the best team in FIRST at in season adjustments. Look for their accuracy to hit a crescendo in St. Louis.

nuggetsyl

03-04-2012, 10:22

Yes, but remember that you're comparing 254 at their first event to 67, 341, 1114 & 2056 at their third events. I know I'm basically restating what Adam and Al have already said, but this game requires an insane amount of tweaking. We were pretty embarrassed by our shooting performance in Week 2 at GTR East; since that time we've been working non stop to get things perfect, and our shooting percentage stats reflect this. The Poofs are by far the best team in FIRST at in season adjustments. Look for their accuracy to hit a crescendo in St. Louis.

I could not agree any more with what Karthik siad. In Orlando we had the same issue. Making the smallest changes made a world of difference. 254 will be firing on all cylinders next comp.

Andrew Lawrence

03-04-2012, 10:27

254 will be firing on all cylinders next comp.

I'm scared now. The question is: How much change can they do in 4 days? Usually, they have a few weeks between competitions. Now they have just about a day left.

Looks like we'll see soon!

sdcantrell56

03-04-2012, 10:32

I'm scared now. The question is: How much change can they do in 4 days? Usually, they have a few weeks between competitions. Now they have just about a day left.

Looks like we'll see soon!

What is there to be scared about? They already won a competition "not firing on all cylinders". No doubt in my mind that they will be much improved at CVR. Good luck keeping up

nuggetsyl

03-04-2012, 10:36

I'm scared now. The question is: How much change can they do in 4 days? Usually, they have a few weeks between competitions. Now they have just about a day left.

Looks like we'll see soon!

In Orlando we were 5-5 73 hp 50 bp 69 tp

In Lenape we were 10-2 175 hp 100 bp 264 tp

In Mount Olive we were 11-1 167hp 120 bp 300 tp

254 is going to make the changes it needs and i am sure you will see simular results. It's crazy what small things make you win and lose.

rsisk

03-04-2012, 11:06

Watching 254's accuracy improve match by match on Fri & Sat at Silicon Valley was very inspiring. I can only imagine how deadly it will be at CVR with multiple days to work on it.

Thad House

03-04-2012, 11:14

Something we noticed during our testing and then at our regionals is that alot of robots used shooters with curved hoods. We noticed that with curved hoods that the ball variances caused large variances in shooting distance. When we tested with a straight hood with no curve, we saw much better results, and every shot with any ball was consistent to about a foot. We knew with tuning we could get a curved hood to work, but we went with straight because we were able to tune it on bag day right before bagged, and have not changed the shooting code since then.