View Full Version : Championship 2014 Proposal
Another thread got me thinking about how we could improve the championship event, and below is what I would propose when we next change venues:
The Championship has pretty much expanded beyond the point where it comfortably fits in one dome, we would be better served in a convention center style venue (The Los Angeles Convention Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Convention_Center) and the The Staples Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staples_Center) or something similar) This would be the schedule:
Wednesday - Practice matches and the first qualification matches in 8 divisions 60 team divisions, in the exhibition halls.
Thursday - More Qualification Matches
Friday - Qualification Matches, Alliance Selections, Division Elimination Matches and Awards.
Saturday - Now we get to the fun part. At this point, we move everyone into the Staples Centre for the "Einstein" Division. All the teams from each winning alliance and the captains of each finalist alliance are part of this 32 team division. They play a handful of round-robin style matches in this divisions. Each team's QS is the sum of the points earned in the round robin with 1 additional QS point for each win that they achieved in their divisions (this helps sort the rankings and also handicaps the finalist team). Then Alliance selections and Eliminations for the World Championship :).
There are a number of reasons that I believe this would be a superior system:
We now include an incredible 480 teams at worlds.
Everyone gets more qualification matches
We end with the absolute best talent in the world winning. (No more getting stuck in the wrong division).
Saturday provides an awesome show that is watchable to a wide audience. Because the level of play is incredible and the number of teams is reasonable to follow.
Hopefully this inspires some interesting discussion,
- Alex
XaulZan11
03-04-2012, 15:35
I think there are a lot of great ideas here. I'm not sure how many of our students or mentors could take an entire week off a school or work to attend, though. Most of us are already feeling the effects of taking three days off for this years championship.
Personally all I want is FIRST to adopt the Battlecry model and have 16 alliances battling all Saturday long (with full individual awards ceremonies afterwards for each division) til the survivors settle it on Einstein in the early evening.
I think there are a lot of great ideas here. I'm not sure how many of our students or mentors could take an entire week off a school or work to attend, though. Most of us are already feeling the effects of taking three days off for this years championship.
Since this seems to concern a number of people, I have condensed it to three days.
1986titans
03-04-2012, 15:40
The Astrodome has been closed for a few years, so it's really just one stadium now.
Lil' Lavery
03-04-2012, 15:50
The 2003 FIRST Championship was held in Reliant Park. I don't think many miss the walk to the field.
Jacob Paikoff
03-04-2012, 16:03
I definitely think your on the right track. Even if we just increased the number of division to 8 with 70 teams each and continued with the same format each team would get more matches, approximately 12 compared to the 10 now. Einstein would then become an 8 team tournament to decide the champion.
To facilitate the expansion of Championship from ~360 to 560 teams the current World Championship would have to just become the FRC World Championship with FLL and FTC either moving to earlier in the week or more likely to their own event earlier in the year.
We should still be able to host it at the EJD in St. Louis
Dancin103
03-04-2012, 16:07
The 2003 FIRST Championship was held in Reliant Park. I don't think many miss the walk to the field.
I was glad someone else said it! Championships in this place was a mess and that's all I'm going to say.
The 2003 FIRST Championship was held in Reliant Park. I don't think many miss the walk to the field.
The Astrodome has been closed for a few years, so it's really just one stadium now.
Perhaps a convention center would be a better fit. (I have changed the original proposal to use the LA Convention Center, and the Staples Center for finals.)
Dancin103
03-04-2012, 16:15
The reasons the most recent set of Championships have been where they were is because they are, relatively, centrally located for all teams. If Championships were in LA, then >70% of teams would incur costs of flights that are astronomical. Finding the best location for any type of Championship for this program is difficult.
pwnageNick
03-04-2012, 16:22
The reasons the most recent set of Championships have been where they were is because they are, relatively, centrally located for all teams. If Championships were in LA, then >70% of teams would incur costs of flights that are astronomical. Finding the best location for any type of Championship for this program is difficult.
McCormick Convention Center followed by United Center (Madhouse on Madison) in Chicago. Has an international airport (O'Hare) and is centrally located in the US.
-Nick
Orange County Convention Center in Orlando, Florida. Largest convention center in the world and you cant beat what Orlando has to offer for high schoolers.
McCormick Convention Center followed by United Center (Madhouse on Madison) in Chicago. Has an international airport (O'Hare) and is centrally located in the US.
-Nick
United Center is nowhere near McCormick.
JohnSchneider
03-04-2012, 16:48
If you really want to expand the number of teams you can have, hold it at the Cowboys Stadium in Arlington Texas.
I dare you to find a bigger venue.
The reasons the most recent set of Championships have been where they were is because they are, relatively, centrally located for all teams. If Championships were in LA, then >70% of teams would incur costs of flights that are astronomical. Finding the best location for any type of Championship for this program is difficult.
Since I live in Canada I have had to pay for the flights to all 4 championships I have/will attend, so I hadn't really thought about this. The point of using the LA Convention Center is to prove that facilities exist that would fit the proposal, its not central to the changes that would be made to the championship event.
- Alex
We could put 8 fields and the pits in Lucas Oil but the FTC and FLL wouldn't fit and would have to stay next door in the convention center.
Grim Tuesday
03-04-2012, 17:56
The reasons the most recent set of Championships have been where they were is because they are, relatively, centrally located for all teams. If Championships were in LA, then >70% of teams would incur costs of flights that are astronomical. Finding the best location for any type of Championship for this program is difficult.
It is much more expensive for us to fly to St. Louis than to anywhere that's a major air hub. If it was in, say, Detroit or Atlanta, we could probably afford to fly rather than take a 14 hour bus ride.
I know a place with many convention center options, where airfare is almost always cheap, and there's a few nearby hotel options as well. If championship had to be extended a day, I get the feeling many mentors would take it a little better than some other places...
gyroscopeRaptor
03-04-2012, 18:34
I know a place with many convention center options, where airfare is almost always cheap, and there's a few nearby hotel options as well. If championship had to be extended a day, I get the feeling many mentors would take it a little better than some other places...
Probably one of the funniest posts ever.
This is probably a topic for another thread, but who would the new divisions be named after? Would Franklin/da Vinci be recycled from FTC? My money's on Tesla.
buildmaster5000
03-04-2012, 19:23
If we are going to throw around location ideas, the DC Convention Center has at least 4 halls, each one with more than enough space to support a 65 team regional. The issue would come, I think, when you have to put 4 or 5 sets of bleachers up at once. And I believe DC has airport hubs for United, US Air, and Delta.
In all honesty, the space we had for the first 2 years of the DC regional could have squeezed close to an entire second regional into, so my guess is that someone, with a lot of planning and measuring, could get 6 regional sized setups in there no problem. But somehow I don't think space is FIRST's biggest concern with the championships...
Tetraman
03-04-2012, 20:06
My proposal:
http://i43.tinypic.com/2rzaxio.png
Offer awards to the Quarter-finalists, Semi-finalists, Championship Finalist and Championship Winners. Thats a total of 24 awards (if no backups), better than the 30 as current (if no backups) - thus aiding FIRST in their "award problem". The division fields will be where the 1st, 2nd and quarterfinal rounds are played, with the 1st/8th seed playing on their "home court". Semifinal and Final rounds are played on Einstein as they are now.
Drive teams would be awarded with their finalist trophies after their match, either on the Field they play on, or onto the stage set up beside Einstein. This way, after the teams lose the event, their drive teams can be given that "lets give a hand to this great alliance."
The reason I would drop the whole "Division" thing, and settle for more "finalist" awards, is because divisions alter every year. The word can be used in another way for FIRST by dropping it from the current use. Divisional Finalists are nothing more than Championship Quarter-Finalists anyway. Rather than saying you are in the "Curie Division", you would say "Curie Field" or in this year's game: "Curie Court".
My proposal:
http://i43.tinypic.com/2rzaxio.png
Offer awards to the Quarter-finalists, Semi-finalists, Championship Finalist and Championship Winners. Thats a total of 24 awards (if no backups), better than the 30 as current (if no backups) - thus aiding FIRST in their "award problem". The division fields will be where the 1st, 2nd and quarterfinal rounds are played, with the 1st/8th seed playing on their "home court". Semifinal and Final rounds are played on Einstein as they are now.
The reason I would drop the whole "Division" thing, and settle for more "finalist" awards, is because divisions alter every year. The word can be used in another way for FIRST by dropping it from the current use. Rather than saying you are in the "Curie Division", you would say "Curie Field" or in this year's game: "Curie Court".
Best idea put forth so far. I bet you could get most teams to vote yes for this change.
I know a place with many convention center options, where airfare is almost always cheap, and there's a few nearby hotel options as well. If championship had to be extended a day, I get the feeling many mentors would take it a little better than some other places...
Best idea in this thread. Count me in.
Best idea in this thread. Count me in.
The Bahamas. I like the idea of a neutral site.
I know he means Las Vegas
JustinRueb1891
03-04-2012, 23:21
To facilitate the expansion of Championship from ~360 to 560 teams the current World Championship would have to just become the FRC World Championship with FLL and FTC either moving to earlier in the week or more likely to their own event earlier in the year.
I really like the idea of moving FLL and FTC to before or after the FRC championships. This allows for more space to be used in the same venue to create a larger FRC championship.
I like the idea of moving the FLL and FTC events because some of our best students are on our FTC teams as well.
Andrew Lawrence
03-04-2012, 23:32
I"m just curious: How many of you are actually serious about finding a great new proposal, and going into action to make it happen? If anyone can go from idea to final creation, it's FIRSTers. I love all the ideas so far, and would be willing to help push any one of them (Go champs in Las Vegas!) if people were serious about it.
Lil' Lavery
03-04-2012, 23:53
Perhaps a convention center would be a better fit. (I have changed the original proposal to use the LA Convention Center, and the Staples Center for finals.)
Staples Center is no go due to the NBA and NHL playoffs being in the same time frame as Championship.
Related:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95097
Nawaid Ladak
04-04-2012, 01:23
There are three major issues that need to be addressed when one considers changing the format for the Championship Event
+ The Setting: Location is key. The location has to be somewhat centralized, in a major city, with reasonable logistic options. (for example: i've heard the reason Indianapolis got turned down for the 2011-2013 Championship Event was because all they had was a bus service as a form of public transportation. St. Louis and Atlanta both had rail services running directly from the airports to a location which was walking distance away from the main venue). An International airport is a must at this point. There have to be things of interest besides the Championship Event itself that attract people to that particular city. For example, Atlanta had the Coca-Cola Factory, CNN, and the Aquarium, St. Louis has the Arch. Indianapolis has the motor speedway. The city also has to have a reasonable amount of hotel rooms, everyone needs a bed to sleep on and a place to crash. These hotels also have to be relativity close to the event venue. Visitors also need a place to eat nearby as well. a reasonable amount of food options nearby also need to be accounted for when selecting a city. FIRST transports the various fields using trucks, these trucks need to arrive in the city in a timely manner as well so that they can be set up for the big show. These things factor into the selection for a Championship site.
+ The Venue itself: I believe the city dictates the venue, and the venue will dictate the format of the event. Is it plausible for FIRST to switch over to a convention center style setup? or does FIRST have to stick to the Stadium/Convention Center Hybrid? (Note: the only cites with active dome type stadiums are Atlanta GA, Arlington TX, Detroit MI, Glendale AZ, Houston TX, Indianapolis IN, Minneapolis MN, New Orleans LA, and St. Louis MO.) These are questions that need to be answered before one can move on to selecting a proper venue. The America's Center has a little more than 500,000 square feet of exhibit space, including the dome. The Championship Event took up everything except for some of the ballrooms upstairs. For the championship event to expand, your going to need more exhibit space for pits and fields. As i mentioned above, you need numerous options for dining and lodging nearby the venue. The venue also has to be available for the dates listed. A major flaw with a venue like the LA live event complex is that it includes Staples Center, the home of the Las Angeles Lakers, Las Angeles Clippers of the NBA, and the Las Angeles Kings of the NHL. As most sports fans know, the playoff seasons for the NHL and NBA traditionally start in mid-April. thus, putting the availability for some portions of these venues into question.
+ The format of the event itself: does FIRST want the event to stick to it's traditional roots, with load in being late Wednesday afternoon going into Wednesday night? or are they willing to push this back further so that more things can be put on the event agenda / more teams can participate in the Championship event? does the venue dictate that FIRST has to be limited to x number of FRC/FTC/FLL/JFLL teams/fields? can FIRST expand this in any way. What should teams expect to pay when it comes to expenditures for the expansion of the Championship Event? Can students afford extra days off from school, can mentors/teachers/volunteers afford extra days out of school/work to attend the event? These are the types of questions FIRST should be asking when selecting a new location for Championship.
now, onto my opinion
I think within a couple of years, the event will either have to move back to Atlanta, or move to Chicago/Dallas. Cities like Las Angeles, Orlando, Las Vegas and New Orleans are also viable options, although these cities are not centralized. If FIRST somehow makes it tougher for teams to get into the Championship event, keeping roughly the same number of teams/fields, then options like Denver, Indianapolis, San Francisco, San Diego, New York, Houston and Phoenix become available.
Up until the end of build season this year, i was firmly a believer that having fields and pits next door in a convention center setup was a bad idea. that was until i saw this
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/ladakn/20120226_160835.jpg
Panoramic (http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/ladakn/PANO_20120226_161122.jpg) / Seating Chart (http://www.ticketsinventory.com/images/maps/OrangeCountyConventionCenter_Basketball_2012-02-24_2012-02-01_1645_tn.gif)
That is the Adidas Center Court, which is a part of the NBA Jam Session that takes place during the NBA All Star Weekend. If FIRST could get bleachers like that for their fields. (there is seating just like that on the other side, and there was plenty of seating from behind that viewpoint as well.) then i don't think a lot of people would have a problem with fields being right next to pits in the convention hall. (Seating and noise were the two major concerns that i heard from people after last year's Championship Event regarding the fields in the pits. There's plenty of seating here, and those bleachers covering three sides of the field can create a good noise buffer between the field and pits.)
This (http://blog.ladakn.com/post/5414029512/qualifying-for-championship-my-proposition)is the qualification system I would prefer FIRST use, I believe it balances both the Competition and Award components of the program out evenly. (sorry for it being technical and everything, if there is anything you don't understand please feel free to PM me.)
I also think FIRST would like to keep the FLL and FTC championships under one roof with the FRC events. This is because the kids in these programs are inspired by what we do in FRC. Why should the have that opportunity taken away from them? (this is why the field setup last year was the way it was. they could have fit three fields on the dome floor along with the BEP stage, but they choose not to partially because of this reason).
Personally, I'd love to go "all in" on Vegas. I think the mentors would have a blast, but im not so sure about all the students, and getting parental approval from stricter parents. (Not to mention getting the school board to approve the trip for those teams that have to jump through that flaming hoop).
Edit: I also like Tetraman's idea, although i think some teams/alliances may find that confusing.
Jonathan Norris
04-04-2012, 01:50
My proposal:
http://i43.tinypic.com/2rzaxio.png
Offer awards to the Quarter-finalists, Semi-finalists, Championship Finalist and Championship Winners. Thats a total of 24 awards (if no backups), better than the 30 as current (if no backups) - thus aiding FIRST in their "award problem". The division fields will be where the 1st, 2nd and quarterfinal rounds are played, with the 1st/8th seed playing on their "home court". Semifinal and Final rounds are played on Einstein as they are now.
Drive teams would be awarded with their finalist trophies after their match, either on the Field they play on, or onto the stage set up beside Einstein. This way, after the teams lose the event, their drive teams can be given that "lets give a hand to this great alliance."
The reason I would drop the whole "Division" thing, and settle for more "finalist" awards, is because divisions alter every year. The word can be used in another way for FIRST by dropping it from the current use. Divisional Finalists are nothing more than Championship Quarter-Finalists anyway. Rather than saying you are in the "Curie Division", you would say "Curie Field" or in this year's game: "Curie Court".
I also put my vote in for how awesome this would be. Would you run this tournament on one central field?? or two (four?)??
This would make scouting really tough. You would basically have to scout every division...
Steven Sigley
04-04-2012, 01:56
I'm not sure of it in comparison to some of the other locations, but as a freshman I was in awe of the size of the New Orleans Morial Convention Center.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans_Morial_Convention_Center
sanddrag
04-04-2012, 01:59
Best idea in this thread. Count me in.I'm in. I could drive to it. Plus, it's a convention capitol of the world. However, I do mind the smoke.
Tetraman
04-04-2012, 06:32
I also put my vote in for how awesome this would be. Would you run this tournament on one central field?? or two (four?)??
This would make scouting really tough. You would basically have to scout every division...
The first, second and quarterfinal rounds would be played on the seperate 4 fields with the semifinal and finals on Einstein. That's exactly how it is played out currently, just we don't have a large extended bracket. Division Finalists are the Championship Quarter-finalists already, we don't don't call them that.
It would make scouting a bit wonky, but that is why I set each division up against themselves first, that way scouts have two or three matches to see what teams can do before they go up against them. And there is the thought of so many teams having to swap seating before the elimination matches and letting everyone know which Field they will be moved to. That can't really be fixed.
However if a change to how the elimination matches are played is something FIRSTers are looking for (and I'm not sure it is), this is an easy change that wouldn't take additional time than is already slotted and end up a more interesting tournament allowing top seeds from same divisions a shot at the prize.
PayneTrain
04-04-2012, 06:55
In all honesty, Detroit, New Orleans, and Las Vegas would all be great places to have CMP for so many reasons, but varying fair/unfair perceptions about each of these cities could scare away FIRST.
I think FIRST will never sacrifice these two things:
All age groups of the sport under one roof
The roof is a convention center/arena hybrid. Personally, I feel weird even thinking about playing Einstein in an Exhibit hall...
Other logistics issues: New Orleans and Detroit aren't really airport hubs like Atlanta, St. Louis, and Vegas are. While every city makes a proposal, I feel like FIRST liked St. Louis for its flights and central location over others. I'm not saying a city won't offer a better deal later and FIRST the deal just under the pretense of location in the contiguous states, but it's something they are considering now.
I think within a couple of years, the event will either have to move back to Atlanta, or move to Chicago/Dallas. Cities like Las Angeles, Orlando, Las Vegas and New Orleans are also viable options, although these cities are not centralized. If FIRST somehow makes it tougher for teams to get into the Championship event, keeping roughly the same number of teams/fields, then options like Denver, Indianapolis, San Francisco, San Diego, New York, Houston and Phoenix become available.
I've seen this mentioned in other threads before so I just wanted to mention it. Atlanta is NOT centralized. It was a good venue and it is the busiest airport in the US in terms of passenger volume, however it is no closer to the center of the country than Las Vegas, and is quite a bit further than the current championships in St. Louis. Once the championship is more than a 6 hour drive away flying begins to look like a better option and many teams will always be forced to fly to attend, so a good international airport is more important than a centralized location IMO.
I also wouldn't mind seeing FIRST rotate the championships once every 3 or 4 years. It'd be nice if only from a perspective of letting other areas see what it is like once in a while.
I like your ideas on a qualifying score system, though I think it should be simplified quite a bit. The idea of a Pre-elimination tournament seems like a pricey proposition though, I know my team could not pay to fly out for a "pre-qualifying" tournament where we may only be competing for one day, and it would be impossible to book hotels after winning (since you wouldn't want to book them before you know if you are staying).
I've been told that San Antonio wants to get in on the fun. When I was down for the Alamo Regional I walked from the parking to the Convention Center. If it did end up there robots would have to go outside, cross a road, go under a shockingly low highway overpass and across a large open area to get into the Alamodome. I don't think teams would much care for that.
I've been told that San Antonio wants to get in on the fun. When I was down for the Alamo Regional I walked from the parking to the Convention Center. If it did end up there robots would have to go outside, cross a road, go under a shockingly low highway overpass and across a large open area to get into the Alamodome. I don't think teams would much care for that.Hope it doesn't rain! (Though I guess there are worse places to bank on it not raining)
I'm not saying a city won't offer a better deal later and FIRST the deal just under the pretense of location in the contiguous states, but it's something they are considering now.
#2014HawaiiChampionship
It'll happen.
In all honesty though, why extend what already works? Granted I have not attended the St. Louis Championships yet (That's this year for me :D) but from what I heard, it seemed to have worked. The fields-in-the-pit thing would probably have to be worked out, but apart from that I think it went swimingly.
One of the best parts of keeping FLL and FTC at the same time is that it gives the younger kids (Mainly FLL) something to look up to. I imagine there is nothing more impressive to an elementary or middle school kid than walking into an arena or convention center and seeing THOUSANDS of High Schoolers eagerly awaiting to come talk to you about your lego robot. Heck, that's what keep me awe struck my freshman year when we qualified for Atlanta by winning Oklahoma as a #1 seed.
There's a quote that I love from The New Cool which (paraphrasing; I don't have the book with me at school) "You've seen the robots on the internet, and now you're seeing them in person. You realize that this is it.. You're here, and you may never be here again."
I'm still proposing a FIRST Championship in Toronto.
The SkyDome/Metro Convention Centre combo is perfect. (Yes, I still refuse to call it the Rogers Center)
I know it won't happen though, since FIRST would rather hassle the ~100 FRC teams from Canada with border crossing than the ~2000 FRC teams from the states.
I've seen this mentioned in other threads before so I just wanted to mention it. Atlanta is NOT centralized. It was a good venue and it is the busiest airport in the US in terms of passenger volume, however it is no closer to the center of the country than Las Vegas, and is quite a bit further than the current championships in St. Louis. Once the championship is more than a 6 hour drive away flying begins to look like a better option and many teams will always be forced to fly to attend, so a good international airport is more important than a centralized location IMO.On this topic, I did a little research into airfares to the various cities we've been talking about. (Sorry, didn't get to San Antonio.)
These are the cheapest roundtrip fares (all US$) Expedia is currently offering for Wed-Sun of this year's Championship (April 25-29). Granted, they fluctuate, but from my back-checking they don't seem to change too much to offer a general idea. The columns are (most?) the venue cities mentioned in this thread. The rows are the kinda-sorta most populous FIRST cities/areas based on the EWCP 2012 map (http://ewcp.org/blog/2012/01/03/FRC-2012-team-distributions/), kinda-sorta in order, with some weighting towards checking different geographic areas. My minimum flight distance was 9-10hrs by car (whoops?). I also threw in Honolulu, Tel Aviv (do you guys fly out of TLV?), and Istanbul for reference. The averages are not weighted. If someone has better location data than me trying to slog through a heat map, I'd be happy to weight them.
Initial Thoughts:
1. <3 Chicago
2. Is Vegas inflated for some reason? (e.g. did we hit peak season/spring break for something?)
3. LA, while not geographically central to CONUS, seems quite well-priced. And it's not even the most expensive for our Eurasian continent friends.
4. Toronto is probably having an overly strong affect on price averages for venues out of driving distance. (It's disproportionately expensive for the number of teams there.) This also goes for any possibility of it housing a venue itself--flights are expensive!
5. Denver (listed only as a row) seems to have a lot of cheap flights. No good venues, huh?
Based on that Chicago seems to be the best, is there a place we could host it there?
Andrew Lawrence
04-04-2012, 10:40
Chicago isn't too bad coming from San Jose. Plus, if we play in any of their basketball stadiums, we NEED to have the Chicago Bulls intro (Sirus/Eye in the sky) played during alliance intros!
Jonathan Norris
04-04-2012, 10:43
The first, second and quarterfinal rounds would be played on the seperate 4 fields with the semifinal and finals on Einstein. That's exactly how it is played out currently, just we don't have a large extended bracket. Division Finalists are the Championship Quarter-finalists already, we don't don't call them that.
It would make scouting a bit wonky, but that is why I set each division up against themselves first, that way scouts have two or three matches to see what teams can do before they go up against them. And there is the thought of so many teams having to swap seating before the elimination matches and letting everyone know which Field they will be moved to. That can't really be fixed.
However if a change to how the elimination matches are played is something FIRSTers are looking for (and I'm not sure it is), this is an easy change that wouldn't take additional time than is already slotted and end up a more interesting tournament allowing top seeds from same divisions a shot at the prize.
I think it would be fun if this elimination bracket was held all (or most of) Saturday on a central field or two, and was a fully produced show like Einstein is now. They could run it like a double regional alternating between fields for the different sides of the bracket until the final match. That way all the teams could see the great elimination matches. I personally think that would be quite a show...
I think it would be fun if this elimination bracket was held all (or most of) Saturday on a central field or two, and was a fully produced show like Einstein is now. They could run it like a double regional alternating between fields for the different sides of the bracket until the final match. That way all the teams could see the great elimination matches. I personally think that would be quite a show...
It would provide a unique, "extended scouting" experience for the elimination alliances if chosen at the end of the previous day, too. Imagine meeting with your alliance partner drive teams and key people, going over tape, crafting the perfect autonomous strategy.... *drool*
You could conceivably substitute Toronto (YYZ) for Niagara Falls International Airport (IAG) or Buffalo (BUF).
Both are within a two hour drive of Toronto, and typically YYZ commands a 50% or greater price premium over them. Most pleasure travellers I know steadfastly refuse to fly from Pearson, preferring instead to drive over the border and fly from Buffalo or Niagara. It means you don't have to deal with customs in the airport (the land crossing guards are much easier to deal with) AND its substantially cheaper.
You could conceivably substitute Toronto (YYZ) for Niagara Falls International Airport (IAG) or Buffalo (BUF).
Both are within a two hour drive of Toronto, and typically YYZ commands a 50% or greater price premium over them. Most pleasure travellers I know steadfastly refuse to fly from Pearson, preferring instead to drive over the border and fly from Buffalo or Niagara. It means you don't have to deal with customs in the airport (the land crossing guards are much easier to deal with) AND its substantially cheaper.Thanks for the tip; I retract Thought #4 about Toronto. BUF seemed to have the best prices. (IAG doesn't seem to fly many places?)
This also brought the Vegas average down. Still, pretty high.
Also, I used MCO for Orlando. I think this is reasonable. Should I check Sanford as well? Note that I did use all LA and NYC airports (for some reason Expedia doesn't want to search all of Orlando at once).
Nawaid Ladak
04-04-2012, 12:12
Thanks for the tip; I retract Thought #4 about Toronto. BUF seemed to have the best prices. (IAG doesn't seem to fly many places?)
This also brought the Vegas average down. Still, pretty high.
Also, I used MCO for Orlando. I think this is reasonable. Should I check Sanford as well? Note that I did use all LA and NYC airports (for some reason Expedia doesn't want to search all of Orlando at once).
Probably not, unless it's for international flights (if tel aviv/istubal connect through any of the London airports, Sanford would then become an option to fly into.
goldenglove002
04-04-2012, 13:06
Maybe I'm a little biased, but I loved the championship in Atlanta. And if FIRST really wanted to expand the event, I don't believe they have ever used the full GWCC. It may be too far down the road to even think about, but there are plans in Atlanta for a new transportation hub and hotel area right next to the GA Dome.
On this topic, I did a little research into airfares to the various cities we've been talking about. (Sorry, didn't get to San Antonio.)
These are the cheapest roundtrip fares (all US$) Expedia is currently offering for Wed-Sun of this year's Championship (April 25-29). Granted, they fluctuate, but from my back-checking they don't seem to change too much to offer a general idea. The columns are (most?) the venue cities mentioned in this thread. The rows are the kinda-sorta most populous FIRST cities/areas based on the EWCP 2012 map (http://ewcp.org/blog/2012/01/03/FRC-2012-team-distributions/), kinda-sorta in order, with some weighting towards checking different geographic areas. My minimum flight distance was 9-10hrs by car (whoops?). I also threw in Honolulu, Tel Aviv (do you guys fly out of TLV?), and Istanbul for reference. The averages are not weighted. If someone has better location data than me trying to slog through a heat map, I'd be happy to weight them.
Initial Thoughts:
1. <3 Chicago
2. Is Vegas inflated for some reason? (e.g. did we hit peak season/spring break for something?)
3. LA, while not geographically central to CONUS, seems quite well-priced. And it's not even the most expensive for our Eurasian continent friends.
4. Toronto is probably having an overly strong affect on price averages for venues out of driving distance. (It's disproportionately expensive for the number of teams there.) This also goes for any possibility of it housing a venue itself--flights are expensive!
5. Denver (listed only as a row) seems to have a lot of cheap flights. No good venues, huh?Is it just me, or did you not include the "driving" cities (not $0, but certainly not as much) into your average? That would certainly skew the real average cost for teams...
Remember, going from 4 to 8 divisions will require double the volunteers.
Going forward, I see a step between regionals and championships, have 4-6 'super regionals' (for lack of a better name) and regionals will qualify you into those. Sort of like the district model, but not as dense and the 'super regionals' could have 160 teams over 2 fields.
Wetzel
Is it just me, or did you not include the "driving" cities (not $0, but certainly not as much) into your average? That would certainly skew the real average cost for teams...I have deliberately omitted these for now because I do not have anything even approaching appropriate guesses. The goal of this chart is to contribute to the numerous "but it's an air travel hub" discussions that have arisen in this thread. (To be honest, I wasn't anticipating just how many "drivable pairs" would show up.) If someone has driving prices, team density numbers, other cities, or anything else, please feel free.
Yeah; there's been an ongoing battle for a while in our political arena here arguing that airport taxes, especially at Pearson, but country-wide as well, are far too high, and its costing them business to nearby US airports like Buffalo.
S.P.A.M.er
04-04-2012, 14:12
It is much more expensive for us to fly to St. Louis than to anywhere that's a major air hub. If it was in, say, Detroit or Atlanta, we could probably afford to fly rather than take a 14 hour bus ride.
if you think 14 hours is bad. Team 180 drives 23 hours plus bus driver changes! but we get by just cuz our normal driver is amazing and is a FRC volunteer.
I have deliberately omitted these for now because I do not have anything even approaching appropriate guesses. The goal of this chart is to contribute to the numerous "but it's an air travel hub" discussions that have arisen in this thread. (To be honest, I wasn't anticipating just how many "drivable pairs" would show up.) If someone has driving prices, team density numbers, other cities, or anything else, please feel free.
I gave it a shot with driving included in the average at a value of 0. There were three apparent groups (internal sorting in in increasing order of price):
<200
Chicago
255-300
Atlanta
Los Angeles
Dallas
Indianapolis
St. Louis
Houston
Phoenix
Orlando
375+
New Orleans
Vegas
This data is not particularly authoritative, however it needs more information before we can draw any definitive conclusions. Some interesting observations:
Chicago is in a league of its own!
Los Angeles isn't measurably more expensive than Atlanta
If we could get a complete list of team postal codes, or even cities, that would go a long way to making an authoritative chart.
1986titans
04-04-2012, 16:10
If we could get a complete list of team postal codes, or even cities, that would go a long way to making an authoritative chart.
Take this:
https://my.usfirst.org/frc/scoring/index.lasso?page=teamlist
... and make it less of a mess by:
1. Copying everything.
2. Opening Excel, going to "Paste Special", and then "Unicode Text".
How many of these cities are actually actively interested in hosting the Championships? As I recall from the 2010 craziness to host in 2011, the only three serious considerations were Atlanta, Indianapolis, and St. Louis.
I'll have to say STL certainly did it right last year, and they're already promoting it this year. However, and this may be the townie bias in me talking, but if a city can host a Super Bowl, and do it remarkably and unequivocally well, then in my eyes that city would be the frontrunner to host the next round of FIRST Championships.
How many of these cities are actually actively interested in hosting the Championships? As I recall from the 2010 craziness to host in 2011, the only three serious considerations were Atlanta, Indianapolis, and St. Louis.
I'll have to say STL certainly did it right last year, and they're already promoting it this year. However, and this may be the townie bias in me talking, but if a city can host a Super Bowl, and do it remarkably and unequivocally well, then in my eyes that city would be the frontrunner to host the next round of FIRST Championships.
How about hosting the NBA All-Star game and all the other festivities that go with it for the entire week?
Staples Center is no go due to the NBA and NHL playoffs being in the same time frame as Championship.
Robot vs. NBA player free-throw contest, anyone? :D
DominickC
04-04-2012, 22:00
Personally all I want is FIRST to adopt the Battlecry model and have 16 alliances battling all Saturday long (with full individual awards ceremonies afterwards for each division) til the survivors settle it on Einstein in the early evening.
THIS!
EricLeifermann
04-04-2012, 22:11
If we are going to throw around location ideas, the DC Convention Center has at least 4 halls, each one with more than enough space to support a 65 team regional. The issue would come, I think, when you have to put 4 or 5 sets of bleachers up at once. And I believe DC has airport hubs for United, US Air, and Delta.
In all honesty, the space we had for the first 2 years of the DC regional could have squeezed close to an entire second regional into, so my guess is that someone, with a lot of planning and measuring, could get 6 regional sized setups in there no problem. But somehow I don't think space is FIRST's biggest concern with the championships...
It will never happen in DC, its just TOO expensive and its def not centrally located. The DC regional is about 2-3X more expensive than other regionals. It is the most expensive only FRC regional competition to run(there are other regionals, mainly New York, that put on FTC and i think FLL comps during the same weekend that raises the cost of their competition above DC, but DC is the most expensive competition that only runs FRC).
If it happens in D.C, it could be part of the Engineering & Science Fair activities.
ESF DC was an awesome event !. I recommend any team that plans financially to make it to championship, but not make it, should consider taking the money and go to DC for ESF
Missouri Pavilion went unconstested !.
The 2013 BERSDT ESF DC challenge is who can bring a demo robot that can help on the garden built out of FIRST Robotics kit (70% by market value >)
Cheers,
Marcos.
After a year in MAR, I'd like to see the district models expanded, so that all teams are in 'district' with the same point system. Then teams can go outside the district and transfer points.
Then have two championships, (east and west coast?) 4 fields each.... The winners from the eight fields meet and compete for the worlds....
After a year in MAR, I'd like to see the district models expanded, so that all teams are in 'district' with the same point system. Then teams can go outside the district and transfer points.
Then have two championships, (east and west coast?) 4 fields each.... The winners from the eight fields meet and compete for the worlds....
Good idea. That way you could have 400 teams at both East and West coast. Makes for a very expensive season for the winning teams. But this is just dreaming right?
Just some notes to take into account. The weather in many of the upper midwestern regions is usually pretty awful in April or May.
Coming from Chicago I can tell you that it would not be a very good city for an indoor based Championship unless you would like to have the entire show in McCormick Place. A Regional Championship, yes, but Nationals, no (unless FIRST can convince the city to put a dome on Soldier Field :) ).
waialua359
11-05-2012, 13:26
Orange County Convention Center in Orlando, Florida. Largest convention center in the world and you cant beat what Orlando has to offer for high schoolers.
Except for the price tag to attend.:ahh:
Except for the price tag to attend.:ahh:
It'd be worth every penny....and it wouldn't be that expensive for us :p
One of the best parts of keeping FLL and FTC at the same time is that it gives the younger kids (Mainly FLL) something to look up to. I imagine there is nothing more impressive to an elementary or middle school kid than walking into an arena or convention center and seeing THOUSANDS of High Schoolers eagerly awaiting to come talk to you about your lego robot. Heck, that's what keep me awe struck my freshman year when we qualified for Atlanta by winning Oklahoma as a #1 seed.
It's also fun to look at FLL teams and see what they have done (I retain interest as a former FLL-er).:]
I'll be ecstatic if we return to Atlanta. I vastly prefer it to St Louis.
I'll be ecstatic if we return to Atlanta. I vastly prefer it to St Louis.
I agree 1,000,000%. Sorry St. Louis, but Atlanta fit the championship alot better.
EricLeifermann
11-05-2012, 15:12
I agree 1,000,000%. Sorry St. Louis, but Atlanta fit the championship alot better.
Its not that it fit better its that there is more to do in ATL that is close to the venue and you didn't have to spend 12 bucks a meal to get a crappy ham sandwich, chips, tiny bottle of water, and a cookie/brownie.
The only thing that STL has over ATL is the walk from the pits to the field for both the drive teams and the people who walked from the pits to the stands is MUCH shorter. Otherwise STL is behind ATL by a huge margin.
cpeister
11-05-2012, 16:13
The only thing that STL has over ATL is the walk from the pits to the field for both the drive teams and the people who walked from the pits to the stands is MUCH shorter. Otherwise STL is behind ATL by a huge margin.
The other benefit of STL is its location. While it doesn't matter so much to some teams who would have to fly regardless, there are many teams that are able to travel by bus who would have had to fly to ATL, or have a very long bus ride.
781 has travelled overnight on the bus to and from STL the last 2 years they have attended, leaving Tuesday night and arriving Wednesday around midday. When they attended at Epcot in 2002, they also took a bus, but more school/work time was lost for the trip.
Chexposito
11-05-2012, 16:20
McCormick Convention Center followed by United Center (Madhouse on Madison) in Chicago. Has an international airport (O'Hare) and is centrally located in the US.
-Nick
No hockey arena would work due to the possibility of the Stanley Cup playoffs (St. Louis was playing L.A. not to far from the Edward Jones Dome while the championships were wrapping up). This is why football stadiums are the prime choice, they are in their off-season.
We used to be able to take a bus to Atlanta, a few years we were also able to share the cost with other teams(1902, 801, 233), which allowed us to be able to afford a travel regional that would allow us to fly farther away. Now that we have to fly to STL we are having to look at closer/drivable regionals which restricts us to the teams we interact with, the regionals we can attend, and the type of fun we want to have on our travel trips; the fun usually was with snow because kids that live in Florida will most likely never see snow.
JohnSchneider
11-05-2012, 16:21
I'll be ecstatic if we return to Atlanta. I vastly prefer it to St Louis.
St. Louis is a much cleaner safer city though. We were assaulted TWICE in Atlanta during champs 2 years ago. We felt a lot better about our kids in St. Louis...
AdamHeard
11-05-2012, 16:50
St. Louis is a much cleaner safer city though. We were assaulted TWICE in Atlanta during champs 2 years ago. We felt a lot better about our kids in St. Louis...
What happened?
waialua359
11-05-2012, 17:55
Its not that it fit better its that there is more to do in ATL that is close to the venue and you didn't have to spend 12 bucks a meal to get a crappy ham sandwich, chips, tiny bottle of water, and a cookie/brownie.
The only thing that STL has over ATL is the walk from the pits to the field for both the drive teams and the people who walked from the pits to the stands is MUCH shorter. Otherwise STL is behind ATL by a huge margin.
That's what we loved best about this year.
Of the approx. 400 robots at CMP this year, our pit was THE closest to entering the fields.:p
JohnSchneider
12-05-2012, 01:21
What happened?
The first time a guy off the street walked up and started pushing on a student, trying to start a fight I guess. Our student acted very mature and just stood there. The guy stopped, but we were followed by him and 2 of his friends all the way to the dome.
The second time a group of people came over and stole a hat off one of our mentors heads and started harassing the entire team.
Needless to say we had a much more pleasant experience in St. Louis. Especially downtown. We felt perfectly safe there. :p
The first time a guy off the street walked up and started pushing on a student, trying to start a fight I guess. Our student acted very mature and just stood there. The guy stopped, but we were followed by him and 2 of his friends all the way to the dome.
The second time a group of people came over and stole a hat off one of our mentors heads and started harassing the entire team.
Needless to say we had a much more pleasant experience in St. Louis. Especially downtown. We felt perfectly safe there. :pI was physically assaulted in St. Louis this year as well as later harassed. On the all it is probably better than Atlanta, though.
AshWalker
12-05-2012, 14:31
Part of the selection criteria FIRST went through when finding a bidding out a new site for Championship was having a stadium with convention center attached. That chopped down the venue list drastically since there are only a few of those in the country. I hear it is still a requirement for when they re-bid next year.
Then it moved to what cities have good public transportation, an airport that can accommodate a lot of people, and hotels near the venue.
I heard everyone would have loved to do Vegas since they could have put on a great show and handled the crowds but with so many kids Vegas probably wouldn't want us.
Alex2614
19-04-2013, 01:38
Its not that it fit better its that there is more to do in ATL that is close to the venue and you didn't have to spend 12 bucks a meal to get a crappy ham sandwich, chips, tiny bottle of water, and a cookie/brownie.
The only thing that STL has over ATL is the walk from the pits to the field for both the drive teams and the people who walked from the pits to the stands is MUCH shorter. Otherwise STL is behind ATL by a huge margin.
I agree. Atlanta had a LOT more open space both within the venue and outside. Between Centennial Olympic Park, the CNN Center, the huge plaza between the World Congress Center and the dome, and the HUGE lobby of the GWCC, it was able to accomodate us a lot better. I liked that everything was in one giant space, including the finale. As a freshman and junior, I was very impressed and awe-struck in ATL, but in STL I just feel cramped and crowded.
The CMP could always move to Morgantown, though :eek: We have a few hotels and a football stadium and an airport :D
Perhaps a convention center would be a better fit. (I have changed the original proposal to use the LA Convention Center, and the Staples Center for finals.)
The George R. Brown Convention Center would easily host the 8 division and then you could have the finals at Reliant. It already hosts the Lone Star Regional in a small section every year so I can't imagine it being too difficult to expand it across the entire convention center. It might be a Texan's bias but Houston would be one of the best cities to use for Championship. It's central location is favorable to teams from all regions.
The George R. Brown Convention Center would easily host the 8 division and then you could have the finals at Reliant. It already hosts the Lone Star Regional in a small section every year so I can't imagine it being too difficult to expand it across the entire convention center. It might be a Texan's bias but Houston would be one of the best cities to use for Championship. It's central location is favorable to teams from all regions.
Houston is really far from pretty much everyone when you look at driving distance.
stephenmcd71
19-04-2013, 06:44
We could put 8 fields and the pits in Lucas Oil but the FTC and FLL wouldn't fit and would have to stay next door in the convention center.
I would love to see the Championship in Indianapolis or at the United Center in Chicago.
Calvin Hartley
19-04-2013, 07:42
I must agree that we should keep all FIRST programs at the same Championship, I know as an FLL student I enjoyed looking at "the big robots" and as an FRC student, I do still enjoy looking through the FLL teams' work. I'm looking forward to it!
Banderoonies
19-04-2013, 07:54
McCormick Convention Center followed by United Center (Madhouse on Madison) in Chicago. Has an international airport (O'Hare) and is centrally located in the US.
-Nick
I totally agree with Chicago. It is easy to fly there from many states being a major hub.
STL has been a LOT more expensive to fly to that ATL ever was.
1683cadder
19-04-2013, 09:28
Championship may come back to Atl soon. At Peachtree, Atlanta sent a rep to tell us Atlanta is trying to get championship back.
I was physically assaulted in St. Louis this year as well as later harassed. On the all it is probably better than Atlanta, though.
Our last year in Atlanta 2010, we were approached 3 times by different characters on the street. All 3 were dangerous situations. I grew up in Philly, so I know the difference.
The last incident happened about 5 blocks from the CNN Center, when two nuts with a Taser approached our group. We circled the wagons and silently stood our ground, so they got bored and left. I swore right then that we would never return to Atlanta as a team. I am ultimately responsible for ensuring the safety of my students.
themagic8ball
19-04-2013, 10:15
I think 400 teams is the max we will ever see at championships. In fact, I can see FIRST implementing super regionals, and then having a much more intimate championship event only inviting the best of the best. Logistics become much easier, and just qualifying for championships becomes a prize in itself.
Lil' Lavery
19-04-2013, 11:08
Atlanta actually has a lower crime rate than St. Louis.
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ga/atlanta/crime/
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/mo/st-louis/crime/
Has anyone encountered (or heard of other teams encountering) dangerous situations in St. Louis?
JohnSchneider
19-04-2013, 11:27
Atlanta actually has a lower crime rate than St. Louis.
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ga/atlanta/crime/
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/mo/st-louis/crime/
When Atlanta was home to championships it had the title of "Most dangerous city in america". As soon as we moved to St. Louis, the title transferred. Coincidence?
JohnFogarty
19-04-2013, 11:30
The Championship needs to move back to Atlanta. This all I'm going to say.
BrendanB
19-04-2013, 11:30
When Atlanta was home to championships it had the title of "Most dangerous city in america". As soon as we moved to St. Louis, the title transferred. Coincidence?
All those crazy teenagers walking around Atlanta trying to "Save the world" looking like gang members with their attire.
That could do it! ;)
JohnFogarty
19-04-2013, 11:37
Also, I've heard through the grapevine that FTC is going to expand to a Super Regional/District Level competition before championships because of how much larger the program is than FRC now.
Also, I've heard through the grapevine that FTC is going to expand to a Super Regional/District Level competition before championships because of how much larger the program is than FRC now.FTC is actually smaller than FRC, with slightly fewer teams but less than half the number of students. It does have a few dozen more events; nothing overwhelming, but if the logistics and fees work out for them, the more play the better. Does that mean fewer FTC teams at championships, or will it be a FRC-district type "equivalent" qualification?
Has anyone encountered (or heard of other teams encountering) dangerous situations in St. Louis?
That would probably require them to actually encounter people in St Louis, which we have never really seen.
Jonathan Norris
19-04-2013, 12:05
That would probably require them to actually encounter people in St Louis, which we have never really seen.
Yea thats the main thing that I've always been disappointed by St. Louis is how quiet and empty Downtown is during Championship, and how few good restaurants and amenities there are in the area. Its a clean city and I never felt in danger, but coming from a city like Toronto where people actually live downtown it's... well... different....
When Atlanta was home to championships it had the title of "Most dangerous city in america". As soon as we moved to St. Louis, the title transferred. Coincidence?
Detroit is actually the Most Dangerous City in America. St. Louis is ranked 2nd and Atlanta is ranked 7th.
Undertones
19-04-2013, 12:33
In St. Louis last year, there were several times that I had to cross the street to avoid less then friendly individuals and was offered drugs on a few occasions. I was surprised at how little I saw St. Louis PD. I can handle myself and at no time did I feel in danger - but the possibility exists.
Crazyboy
19-04-2013, 12:34
I think 400 teams is the max we will ever see at championships. In fact, I can see FIRST implementing super regionals, and then having a much more intimate championship event only inviting the best of the best. Logistics become much easier, and just qualifying for championships becomes a prize in itself.
I don't like the sounds of that. Half the point of Worlds as it stands is getting all the teams together, the atmosphere. I agree on the max 400 teams, but "super regionals" is just another financial barrier between teams and a world title.
FTC is actually smaller than FRC, with slightly fewer teams but less than half the number of students. It does have a few dozen more events; nothing overwhelming, but if the logistics and fees work out for them, the more play the better. Does that mean fewer FTC teams at championships, or will it be a FRC-district type "equivalent" qualification?
One of the things to keep in mind is that FTC only gets 100 teams in two divisions at the Championship. That's one of the reasons that only the alliance *captain* of the winning alliance usually qualifies for the championship, which sucks. FTC should get 200 teams in four divisions. Their pits and fields don't take up as much room as FRC. Maybe that could be squeezed in.
Alex2614
19-04-2013, 13:59
Our last year in Atlanta 2010, we were approached 3 times by different characters on the street. All 3 were dangerous situations. I grew up in Philly, so I know the difference.
The last incident happened about 5 blocks from the CNN Center, when two nuts with a Taser approached our group. We circled the wagons and silently stood our ground, so they got bored and left. I swore right then that we would never return to Atlanta as a team. I am ultimately responsible for ensuring the safety of my students.
You think any city is completely safe? Everybody has different experiences. We never had a problem in Atlanta, but the second we got to St. Louis (quite literally) in 2011 we felt completely insecure based on the number of "characters" that had approached the team.
Here in our little quaint city of Morgantown, I've had some very interesting and scary interactions, but does that mean that Morgantown is a bad place and completely unsafe? No, it doesn't.
The point is, ANY large city is going to have crime, and logistics in such cities as far as keeping the kids safe is going to be extremely difficult. Yes, some cities are better than others (I will never take a group of high school students to NYC, for example, not because of the crime, but other complications I have experienced).
Each and every one of us has had different experiences. Some of us have had problems in STL and not in ATL, and some have had exactly the opposite. If everybody had similar instances in the same city EVERY time they were there, that would be a different story.
One of the things to keep in mind is that FTC only gets 100 teams in two divisions at the Championship. That's one of the reasons that only the alliance *captain* of the winning alliance usually qualifies for the championship, which sucks. FTC should get 200 teams in four divisions. Their pits and fields don't take up as much room as FRC. Maybe that could be squeezed in.I've always figured this as a more logical answer than another qualification level. FTC isn't larger the FRC by any means--it doesn't need to weed down the field further, it just needs the same Worlds bids that FRC gets. (200 teams seems like a lot for each division from an FRC standpoint, but I guess if it works for FTC so much the better.)
St. Louis definitely does pose risks, particularly if you have to walk to your hotel at night. I don't think Al disagrees with you, Alex. It's just a reminder for everyone to be safe. Don't people's fortunate experiences not having problems allow you to let your guard down. You might, you might not. This applies everywhere.
I've always figured this as a more logical answer than another qualification level. FTC isn't larger the FRC by any means--it doesn't need to weed down the field further, it just needs the same Worlds bids that FRC gets. (200 teams seems like a lot for each division from an FRC standpoint, but I guess if it works for FTC so much the better.)
FTC has 100 total teams: 50 teams each in two divisions. I'm suggesting four divisions of 50 each for 200 total.
I'm not sure it's necessary to equalize FRC bids with FTC bids; deciding what's equal would depend on whether you want to equalize space, percent of teams qualifying, total number of student members qualifying, etc. But I do feel that FTC's piece of the championship pie seems too small compared to the size of the program.
Edit: and I can only imagine how FLL teams feel...
Iaquinto.Joe
19-04-2013, 16:11
Detroit is actually the Most Dangerous City in America. St. Louis is ranked 2nd and Atlanta is ranked 7th.
MSC is just too powerful.
MechEng83
19-04-2013, 17:05
Has anyone encountered (or heard of other teams encountering) dangerous situations in St. Louis?
You mean other than tornados and massive hail storms?
MSC is just too powerful.
That wasnt a robot related comment. Detroit is literally the most dangerous city in America.
Has anyone encountered (or heard of other teams encountering) dangerous situations in St. Louis?
Anecdotes are a poor way of assessing risk. Crime statistics for US cities are becoming easier and easier to find and compare. The main problem is that different states have different reporting requirements, or different definitions of various crime types.
Wetzel
Iaquinto.Joe
19-04-2013, 19:35
That wasnt a robot related comment. Detroit is literally the most dangerous city in America.
I was just playing off the good robots = dangerous city parallel. :p
Doesn't that title belong to Flint, MI? :ahh: :yikes:
drew.spillers
19-04-2013, 19:58
Doesn't that title belong to Flint, MI? :ahh: :yikes:
I would agree with that lol, its not so bad once you get used to gunshots lol
In regards to crime, these are all very large and diverse cities. There are certainly neighborhoods in St. Louis where you would not want the championships to be, but based on my experience there, the area where the dome is is fine. I don't know enough about Atlanta, etc, but something similar may apply.
Edit: and I can only imagine how FLL teams feel...
Agreed, before we start talking about equalizing FTC and FRC at Championship, we need to remember that FLL has over 4x the teams of FTC and FRC combined and less slots than both of them at Championships. One of our teams was state champions a few years ago, and they didn't get to go to Championship.
PayneTrain
19-04-2013, 21:57
I think the reason you see a low number of FLL and FTC fields is because it may be seen as going against the low-cost model that both aspire to operate under. Champs is VERY expensive for FRC teams. I guess a counter would be that most FL and FTC teams have less than half the members of a team in FRC, but to each their own.
Little known fact about FLL, it is brocken up into regions. Not every region can send a team to the championship, and whichever regions those are rotate year to year.
In 2010, Ontario had 229 FLL teams. 1 team qualified for the championships. That in itself is a massive feat, but imagine winning that and still not qualifying?
Calvin Hartley
19-04-2013, 22:01
Agreed, before we start talking about equalizing FTC and FRC at Championship, we need to remember that FLL has over 4x the teams of FTC and FRC combined and less slots than both of them at Championships. One of our teams was state champions a few years ago, and they didn't get to go to Championship.
Last year I think they had somewhere in the ballpark of 20,000 teams. When my team went to Worlds in 2010/2011 (Body Forward) season there was about 17,000 with 84 slots at worlds. I'll say it again, it was quite cool as an FLL student to see "the big robots".
Virginia and DC is a FLL region with over 600 teams last year and a 80 team championship event. 1 team from that went to Worlds. That said, from the way many of the current teams participate, additional competitions or events with travel would be a significant change.
Wetzel
JohnFogarty
19-04-2013, 22:06
FTC has 128 teams in two divisions at World. At least there are 128 bids.
Agreed, before we start talking about equalizing FTC and FRC at Championship, we need to remember that FLL has over 4x the teams of FTC and FRC combined and less slots than both of them at Championships. One of our teams was state champions a few years ago, and they didn't get to go to Championship.
The FLL event is not a championship. It is called the World Festival. The FLL participation at CMP is the main reason there are so many nations' flags flying over Einstein. Invitations to the WF had to be scaled back with the proliferation of state and regional championships. Not all champions are invited to celebrate FLL at the WF and there is an allocation of spots for a couple dozen teams from around the world, one per country.
The pertinent core value relates that what we discover is more important than what we win. If you get the chance, stop by the FLL pits to see another important core value in action - We have fun!
About 16.7% of FRC teams qualify for Championship.
16.7% of the 20,500 FLL teams is 3,218.
MARS_James
19-04-2013, 22:28
I think one of the main problems that would develop if there were the same percentage of FLL teams a FRC teams to their totals would be a feeling of that the competition is meant for younger kids only since there would be several thousand of them running around. (Also could you imagine the stands if there were that many FLL teams)
But as brought up above one of the main reasons why there is so little teams there is simple and has been stated above. Cost.
FRC Teams pay a registration fee of I think $5000 to attend Championship I am not sure how much FLL teams pay but it can't be anywhere near that.
I think one of the main problems that would develop if there were the same percentage of FLL teams a FRC teams to their totals would be a feeling of that the competition is meant for younger kids only since there would be several thousand of them running around. (Also could you imagine the stands if there were that many FLL teams)
But as brought up above one of the main reasons why there is so little teams there is simple and has been stated above. Cost.
FRC Teams pay a registration fee of I think $5000 to attend Championship I am not sure how much FLL teams pay but it can't be anywhere near that.
I agree that there shouldn't necessarily be as many FLL teams at World Festival as there are at the FRC Championship, but I think the current system under represents FLL.
What's more, the current system makes it impossible for half the FLL teams to qualify for World Festival, and those that do only get to send 1 team out of 100+. All FRC events automatically qualify 6 teams out of as low as 30*.
*Western Canada Regional
That would probably require them to actually encounter people in St Louis, which we have never really seen.
I've only seen a couple of homeless people in St. Louis and one was being removed by police from the park from across the Dome. I think they are making an effort to keep them away from us.
Doesn't that title belong to Flint, MI? :ahh: :yikes:
Flint looks like the Zombie Apocalypse came and went.
You think any city is completely safe? Everybody has different experiences. .....
Yes I get that and understand what you are saying. As I said I grew up in the city and love cities. I might even go back to Atlanta on my own if I had a reason to do so. But I won't ever take someone elses children there again. In my previous post, I failed to mention that someone was shot in Olympic Park the day before the FIRST Finale and I know two different teams that witnessed grab & run bag thefts inside hotels. So I had only mentioned a small portion of the things I witnessed there from 2004 - 2010. That being said this is all anecdotal so make of it what you wish.
Anthony Galea
20-04-2013, 12:56
That wasnt a robot related comment. Detroit is literally the most dangerous city in America.
I was thinking COBO center. It's a large building and the area around there is pretty safe.
Yes I get that and understand what you are saying. As I said I grew up in the city and love cities. I might even go back to Atlanta on my own if I had a reason to do so. But I won't ever take someone elses children there again. In my previous post, I failed to mention that someone was shot in Olympic Park the day before the FIRST Finale and I know two different teams that witnessed grab & run bag thefts inside hotels. So I had only mentioned a small portion of the things I witnessed there from 2004 - 2010. That being said this is all anecdotal so make of it what you wish.
Actually I think the shooting occurred a mere couple of hours before the finale.
Ivan Malik
20-04-2013, 15:46
I was thinking COBO center. It's a large building and the area around there is pretty safe.
It's just plain to small... compare that to the setup in STL. COBO is tiny by comparison. The Joe is only big enough for two fields too. If only there was something closer to ford field, then the D would be a possibility.
As stated before, every city has its bad areas and its good areas. Detroit is actually rather safe... if you know where you're going. It is rather easy to get turned around though and be in a bad spot rather quickly. There is very little of the traditional grid pattern to the city (It's a wheel instead). To those in SE Michigan it's no big deal we just know where to go, but to someone who has never been to the city, it is confusing as all get. Add in the fact that almost every mile rd could be called by a different name than is actually on the street sign and any non-Michigander is lost in a heart beat.:ahh:
drew.spillers
20-04-2013, 15:57
Flint looks like the Zombie Apocalypse came and went.
We don't eat brains that much anymore, only on holidays :)
Steven Donow
20-04-2013, 20:55
VEX Championships was just announced as April 23-26th...looks like that means next year's FRC Championship will be in May...that just sounds strange...
VEX Championships was just announced as April 23-26th...looks like that means next year's FRC Championship will be in May...that just sounds strange...
No sir, it's been listed as the same weekend for at least a week here (first time I looked at this page recently)
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/championship-event
Interesting.
PayneTrain
20-04-2013, 20:59
FIRST has had their dates and location for the 2014 event since the end of the 2012 Champs, IIRC.
Steven Donow
20-04-2013, 21:00
No sir, it's been listed as the same weekend for at least a week here (first time I looked at this page recently)
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/championship-event
Interesting.
That makes things even more interesting...also the VEX announcement didn't have a graphic or anything, it was just during president of the REC(robotics education commission? I'm not too familiar with VEX oranizations) giving a speech...
That makes things even more interesting...also the VEX announcement didn't have a graphic or anything, it was just during president of the REC(robotics education commission? I'm not too familiar with VEX oranizations) giving a speech...
Robotics Education & Competition Foundation, they are a non-profit organization that works with VEX.
CLandrum3081
21-04-2013, 12:19
Chicago would be a little bit closer for MN teams...But I do like the idea of East/West Championships, and 400 at each. Where would the dividing line be? I could see it being the "Missisip'" as my Texan relatives call it (:p ) but I would hate the separation from our friends in Wisconsin. Either way the Midwest would probably get cut in half.
In response to the "robots = danger" theory on this thread, MN has one of the highest "robot densities" in the nation (we have 180 FRC teams and not a whole lot of people...probably only second to Michigan) - I didn't realize how dangerous MN was! :)
Chicago would be a little bit closer for MN teams...But I do like the idea of East/West Championships, and 400 at each. Where would the dividing line be? I could see it being the "Missisip'" as my Texan relatives call it (:p ) but I would hate the separation from our friends in Wisconsin. Either way the Midwest would probably get cut in half.Likely, but there's nothing that says FIRST has to draw the line themselves. They could--if they wanted to--allow a conference system for border teams to opt one way or the other. NEFIRST is/was considering one for their district model, though I don't believe FIRST has ruled on it yet.
Chicago would be a little bit closer for MN teams...But I do like the idea of East/West Championships, and 400 at each. Where would the dividing line be? I could see it being the "Missisip'" as my Texan relatives call it (:p ) but I would hate the separation from our friends in Wisconsin. Either way the Midwest would probably get cut in half.
In response to the "robots = danger" theory on this thread, MN has one of the highest "robot densities" in the nation (we have 180 FRC teams and not a whole lot of people...probably only second to Michigan) - I didn't realize how dangerous MN was! :)
The most dangerous thing about Minnesota is the windchill.
It's still snowing up there!
The most dangerous thing about Minnesota is the windchill.
It's still snowing up there!
:rolleyes: You would know all about snow, right? Considering that Rochester's long-term yearly average is almost double that of Minneapolis-St. Paul. :)
http://www.city-data.com/top2/c464.html
:rolleyes: You would know all about snow, right? Considering that Rochester's long-term yearly average is almost double that of Minneapolis-St. Paul. :)
http://www.city-data.com/top2/c464.html
Yeah but it pretty much stops after March.
Rochester just mostly looks like it lives in a perpetually shaken snowglobe with flakes falling endlessly.
If you keep doing that the inches add up and the next thing you know you have a hundred inches of snow for the season.
If I had my choice of places I'd like to see the championships I would say Toronto, Ontario. It's a gorgeous city (bigger than Chicago) and I'd bet the Roger Centre would handle FIRST's needs nicely.
In all my travels Toronto is one place where I felt completely safe (though I'm sure poor team 288 would disagree).
Anthony Galea
22-04-2013, 09:10
If I had my choice of places I'd like to see the championships I would say Toronto, Ontario. It's a gorgeous city (bigger than Chicago) and I'd bet the Roger Centre would handle FIRST's needs nicely.
In all my travels Toronto is one place where I felt completely safe (though I'm sure poor team 288 would disagree).
They'd have to plan around the MLB season with the Blue Jays playing there, but it would be possible.
PayneTrain
22-04-2013, 09:51
If I had my choice of places I'd like to see the championships I would say Toronto, Ontario. It's a gorgeous city (bigger than Chicago) and I'd bet the Roger Centre would handle FIRST's needs nicely.
In all my travels Toronto is one place where I felt completely safe (though I'm sure poor team 288 would disagree).
A significant number of schools in the United States have to work around restrictions for international travel outside of 6 months-1 year, which stinks, but it would be harder for a majority of teams to go even if they earned a spot.
A significant number of schools in the United States have to work around restrictions for international travel outside of 6 months-1 year, which stinks, but it would be harder for a majority of teams to go even if they earned a spot.
Yeah, sadly that's why it'll probably never happen. Which is a shame because Toronto deserves to have it.
Alpha Beta
22-04-2013, 10:01
A significant number of schools in the United States have to work around restrictions for international travel outside of 6 months-1 year, which stinks, but it would be harder for a majority of teams to go even if they earned a spot.
Part of the prestige of calling this a "World Championship" comes with the notion that it might be played outside of the United States. I'm willing to consider it. I wonder if teams can plan the trip with their school boards well in advance as a contingency and then cancel it if they don't qualify.
chigskonkwo
11-06-2013, 07:09
There are three major issues that need to be addressed when one considers changing the format for the Championship Event
+ The Setting: Location is key. The location has to be somewhat centralized, in a major city, with reasonable logistic options. (for example: i've heard the reason Indianapolis got turned down for the 2011-2013 Championship Event was because all they had was a bus service as a form of public transportation. St. Louis and Atlanta both had rail services running directly from the airports to a location which was walking distance away from the main venue). An International airport is a must at this point. There have to be things of interest besides the Championship Event itself that attract people to that particular city. For example, Atlanta had the Coca-Cola Factory, CNN, and the Aquarium, St. Louis has the Arch. Indianapolis has the motor speedway. The city also has to have a reasonable amount of hotel rooms, everyone needs a bed to sleep on and a place to crash. These hotels also have to be relativity close to the event venue. Visitors also need a place to eat nearby as well. a reasonable amount of food options nearby also need to be accounted for when selecting a city. FIRST transports the various fields using trucks, these trucks need to arrive in the city in a timely manner as well so that they can be set up for the big show. These things factor into the selection for a Championship site.
+ The Venue itself: I believe the city dictates the venue, and the venue will dictate the format of the event. Is it plausible for FIRST to switch over to a convention center style setup? or does FIRST have to stick to the Stadium/Convention Center Hybrid? (Note: the only cites with active dome type stadiums are Atlanta GA, Arlington TX, Detroit MI, Glendale AZ, Houston TX, Indianapolis IN, Minneapolis MN, New Orleans LA, and St. Louis MO.) These are questions that need to be answered before one can move on to selecting a proper venue. The America's Center has a little more than 500,000 square feet of exhibit space, including the dome. The Championship Event took up everything except for some of the ballrooms upstairs. For the championship event to expand, your going to need more exhibit space for pits and fields. As i mentioned above, you need numerous options for dining and lodging nearby the venue. The venue also has to be available for the dates listed. A major flaw with a venue like the LA live event complex is that it includes Staples Center, the home of the Las Angeles Lakers, Las Angeles Clippers of the NBA, and the Las Angeles Kings of the NHL. As most sports fans know, the playoff seasons for the NHL and NBA traditionally start in mid-April. thus, putting the availability for some portions of these venues into question.
+ The format of the event itself: does FIRST want the event to stick to it's traditional roots, with load in being late Wednesday afternoon going into Wednesday night? or are they willing to push this back further so that more things can be put on the event agenda / more teams can participate in the Championship event? does the venue dictate that FIRST has to be limited to x number of FRC/FTC/FLL/JFLL teams/fields? can FIRST expand this in any way. What should teams expect to pay when it comes to expenditures for the expansion of the Championship Event? Can students afford extra days off from school, can mentors/teachers/volunteers afford extra days out of school/work to attend the event? These are the types of questions FIRST should be asking when selecting a new location for Championship.
now, onto my opinion
I think within a couple of years, the event will either have to move back to Atlanta, or move to Chicago/Dallas. Cities like Las Angeles, Orlando, Las Vegas and New Orleans are also viable options, although these cities are not centralized. If FIRST somehow makes it tougher for teams to get into the Championship event, keeping roughly the same number of teams/fields, then options like Denver, Indianapolis, San Francisco, San Diego, New York, Houston and Phoenix become available.
Up until the end of build season this year, i was firmly a believer that having fields and pits next door in a convention center setup was a bad idea. that was until i saw this
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/ladakn/20120226_160835.jpg
Panoramic (http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/ladakn/PANO_20120226_161122.jpg) / Seating Chart (http://www.ticketsinventory.com/images/maps/OrangeCountyConventionCenter_Basketball_2012-02-24_2012-02-01_1645_tn.gif)
That is the Adidas Center Court, which is a part of the NBA Jam Session that takes place during the NBA All Star Weekend. If FIRST could get bleachers like that for their fields. (there is seating just like that on the other side, and there was plenty of seating from behind that viewpoint as well.) then i don't think a lot of people would have a problem with fields being right next to pits in the convention hall. (Seating and noise were the two major concerns that i heard from people after last year's Championship Event regarding the fields in the pits. There's plenty of seating here, and those bleachers covering three sides of the field can create a good noise buffer between the field and pits.)
This (http://blog.ladakn.com/post/5414029512/qualifying-for-championship-my-proposition)is the qualification system I would prefer FIRST use, I believe it balances both the Competition and Award components of the program out evenly. (sorry for it being technical and everything, if there is anything you don't understand please feel free to PM me.)
I also think FIRST would like to keep the FLL and FTC championships under one roof with the FRC events. This is because the kids in these programs are inspired by what we do in FRC. Why should the have that opportunity taken away from them? (this is why the field setup last year was the way it was. they could have fit three fields on the dome floor along with the BEP stage, but they choose not to partially because of this reason).
Personally, I'd love to go "all in" on Vegas. I think the mentors would have a blast, but im not so sure about all the students, and getting parental approval from stricter parents. (Not to mention getting the school board to approve the trip for those teams that have to jump through that flaming hoop).
Edit: I also like Tetraman's idea, although i think some teams/alliances may find that confusing.
Parts of that are good, but I don't think teams competing in Week 1 regionals would appreciate waiting until after Week 7 regionals to see if they made it to Championships.
I think there are a lot of great ideas here. I'm not sure how many of our students or mentors could take an entire week off a school or work to attend, though. Most of us are already feeling the effects of taking three days off for this years championship.
I'm pretty sure the students wouldn't mind hahahaa
I'm pretty sure the students wouldn't mind hahahaa
As a student that missed around 10 school days this season for competition, I can tell you it gets old very fast when you come back finding out you missed quite a few important lessons.
If I had my choice of places I'd like to see the championships I would say Toronto, Ontario. It's a gorgeous city (bigger than Chicago) and I'd bet the Roger Centre would handle FIRST's needs nicely.
In all my travels Toronto is one place where I felt completely safe (though I'm sure poor team 288 would disagree).
It would be amazing to have it here in Canada!
A significant number of schools in the United States have to work around restrictions for international travel outside of 6 months-1 year, which stinks
We Canadians have to deal with similar problems currently ;)
Lil' Lavery
21-06-2013, 17:21
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130619/BIZ/306190075/1128/rss16
An interesting development for the proponents of a Detroit championship. No timetable for construction and it doesn't solve the Red Wings playoff issues (unless FRC takes over the now unused Joe/Cobo). Unclear whether a convention center is part of the plans, but it is near both Comerica Park and Ford Field.
nikeairmancurry
21-06-2013, 17:54
As interesting as the development is, it doesn't help a whole lot. There just wouldn't be space. Cobo/Joe would be the best chance, but a hockey arena just isn't big enough. Ford field would be nice if there was space for the pits. The new arena space is to be a entertainment district sort of like the CNN center in Atlanta.
As much as I would like it in my home state, I just can't see it.
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