View Full Version : Water Game Next Year?
I was recently at the Seattle Regional and both Dean Kamen and Bill (the FRC director attended). Everyone keeps wanting a water game, and while i think it would be cool, robots and water don't mix. Scarily, both Dean and Bill were hinting at a possible water game next year. Bill even stated "To those of you asking for a water game, be careful what you wish for". So, are they being serious or just trolling us like FIRST does all the time? What do you think?
Andrew Lawrence
10-04-2012, 23:41
Not trying to be rude, but seriously, this is getting old.
Don't think I'm hating. I'm saying this in your best interest. You can get a lot of hate for this, and it's silly, but it will happen. It happened to me, so I'm just trying to help a brother out. :)
just so you know, they are probably never going to do a water competition, it would be far to expensive to protect the buildings from water damage, especially with robots moving at probably high speeds inside of the pool.
KevinGoneNuts
11-04-2012, 00:02
I was recently at the Seattle Regional and both Dean Kamen and Bill (the FRC director attended). Everyone keeps wanting a water game, and while i think it would be cool, robots and water don't mix. Scarily, both Dean and Bill were hinting at a possible water game next year. Bill even stated "To those of you asking for a water game, be careful what you wish for". So, are they being serious or just trolling us like FIRST does all the time? What do you think?
I'm pretty sure they wont ever do a game with actual water involved... The most they would ever do would be something like having balls with different chemical symbols and then having us make Water by putting them in the right order....
Not trying to be rude, but seriously, this is getting old.
It used to be a very funny thing, but I do have to agree it is getting old, but who are we to deny some game speculation ;)
Yeah, I thought it was a ridiculous idea too. Just thought it was interesting how much they've taken notice to all the silly remarks for a water game.
legogeek24
11-04-2012, 00:07
I remember water hints being dropped in previous years as well, obviously to no avail. As *interesting* as it would be, I'm sure its a myth being perpetuated for the frustration of everyone :)
I remember in 09 when the hint was a fish. And then they unveiled the field and it was white and not carpet and I had serious freak out moment where I said to myself, "holy @!#$ they did a water game." Please FIRST don't do this. Of course 2013 will definitely be the year of the water game.
KevinGoneNuts
11-04-2012, 00:34
I remember in 09 when the hint was a fish. And then they unveiled the field and it was white and not carpet and I had serious freak out moment where I said to myself, "holy @!#$ they did a water game." Please FIRST don't do this. Of course 2013 will definitely be the year of the water game.
well that was one of Dave Lavery's hints... His are always so out of the ordinary... Now with him (sadly) not on the GDC anymore We wont have any of those. 2012 was an example of this. We got a list of materials for the field, and we almost got it ;)
But with this year also being a sport year, the next year will be completely random, so something relating to water, but not water itself, is possible.
For anyone that wants to build an ROV...
http://www.auvsi.org/foundation/competitions/robosub/
it would be far to expensive to protect the buildings from water damage
This. No venue would likely agree to host this type of event, nor would they really have the facilities to accommodate such a game.
Rangel(kf7fdb)
11-04-2012, 00:49
For anyone that wants to build an ROV...
http://www.auvsi.org/foundation/competitions/robosub/
Yes I strongly say that this water game is better than any water game FIRST can come up with given their limited size, space, and cost. It was a great experience for us and I encourage all teams to take a look at this competition. If all autonomous is too much to take on so soon you can also do Nurc which is teleoperated and at night:
http://arizonapromotersofappliedscienceineducationaz.web. officelive.com/default.aspx
How about a simulated water game? Imagine the robots looking for and manipulating game pieces in an arena that is approximately six inches deep in ping pong balls, or squash balls, etc. You can see the top of your robot, but the game pieces and obsolesces and perhaps even the goals are fully or partially obscured by a vast number of non scoring pieces. The shear weight and volume of them present unique challenges both for navigation and locating the real scoring pieces.
How about a simulated water game? Imagine the robots looking for and manipulating game pieces in an arena that is approximately six inches deep in ping pong balls, or squash balls, etc. You can see the top of your robot, but the game pieces and obsolesces and perhaps even the goals are fully or partially obscured by a vast number of non scoring pieces. The shear weight and volume of them present unique challenges both for navigation and locating the real scoring pieces.
Remind me not to sign up for "field reset" on this one! ;)
MrForbes
11-04-2012, 01:49
I had a nice conversation with Bill Miller this year, and the subject of water did come up.
NURC is fun, and this year we get to try the autonomous version! based on the RoboSub rules
Samwaldo
11-04-2012, 08:05
First of all a water game is impractical!!!! If the venue even allowed a field with water on it, then FIRST field set up would have to figure a way to transport water to the field, probably being buckets if a hose was not long enough. Also leakage would be a huge problem. Lastly putting away a wet field would Be difficult due to slippage but also FIRST volunteers would have to figure a way to get rid of the water.
I think though if they ABSOLUTLY wanted to do something with water then they could do something similar to the 2011 minibots, they could put a small lane, or bowl of water that involves a minibot either racing down the lane of water, or floating in a bowl and doing something
Bill Miller said a similar thing at QCR. The crowd was awash in speculation, but I suspect he was dripping with sarcasm.
Jenn Feathers
11-04-2012, 09:40
I was recently at the Seattle Regional and both Dean Kamen and Bill (the FRC director attended). Everyone keeps wanting a water game, and while i think it would be cool, robots and water don't mix. Scarily, both Dean and Bill were hinting at a possible water game next year. Bill even stated "To those of you asking for a water game, be careful what you wish for". So, are they being serious or just trolling us like FIRST does all the time? What do you think?
i would LOVE to have a water game!!! Underwater robotics competitions do exist, NURC for example. but wow!! thatd be pretty awesome to have a water game. I wonder if FIRST has ever thought about adding a water division to the four existing FIRST competitions?
I don't think water is as impractical as it is being made out to be. As far as the motors and battery etc are concerned, they will operate quite happily fully immersed in water (relatively clean water). Water as a matter of fact is non-conductive, rather it is the ions present in the water that account for the conductive nature. However, for driving motors and higher current loads, the power leak through the water is negligable. In fact, I have read several articles stating that the best way to break in one of the mabuchi-style motors is to immerse it in a glass of water and run it at low power for up to an hour. The problem with water and motors is corrosion which would have to be mitigated with sacrificial anodes or chemical inhibitors. The only trickky bit would be the electronics as they are indeed affected by current leak through water. FIRST would have to design and provide a waterproof control system. Something as simple as a waterproof Pelican case fitted with amphenol connectors or thru-case terminal strips would work quite well. An even cheaper solution would be military surplus ammunition boxes (cost about $5 each at surplus outlets) fitted with a lexan window to view the blinking lights and thru-case terminal strips for input/output connections. I know a number of people who have built waterproof cases for camcorders using these boxes. Model RC boats seem to do just fine so why not robots??
As for the venue, I think the only place you will have issues are gymnasiums with hardwood floors. Convention centers and arenas will have no problem dealing with water due to concrete construction and floor drains. Heck- in Toronto they flood an arena 5 feet deep and drive powerboats around towwing wakeboarders for the Toronto Boat Show! I have also attended several events where organizers have set up above-ground pools to hold mock RC warship battles and such. It's not out of the question IMO. Such a field could be filled from any standpipe or fire hose in no time and drained using a portable gasoline utility pump outside into a storm drain.
I do however think that FIRST is too "lazy" to pull something like this off. It is just so much easier for them not to bother.
MrForbes
11-04-2012, 10:18
I don't think water is as impractical as it is being made out to be.
Yes, it is....
I do however think that FIRST is too "lazy" to pull something like this off. It is just so much easier for them not to bother.
I think there's a difference between being realistic, and being lazy. Although they often go together.
Brian Selle
11-04-2012, 11:23
I agree this is all quite impractical at the local level, but just to run with the idea... how about a pool the size of the current field 4-6" deep and the robots are jet boats with bumpers. A max weight 120lb bot would draft < 4".
The KOP contains 3 pairs of rubber boots and 3 offical FRC towels. It would certainly be exciting.
Jenn Feathers
11-04-2012, 11:35
but still atleast 6" thick acrylic walls would be needed to hold back the water, take a hit from the robots, and give the audience a clear view of whats going on under the water. perfectly clear 6" thick acrylic is quite expensive.
RobotMom
11-04-2012, 12:45
Not trying to be rude, but seriously, this is getting old.
Don't forget... plenty of kids are always new to FIRST and/or Chief Delphi ~ it isn't old to everyone. :]
I've heard this question brought up many times from members of our team. Although impractical... I love hearing them "dream big". ;)
sodizzle
11-04-2012, 13:09
First of all a water game is impractical!!!! If the venue even allowed a field with water on it, then FIRST field set up would have to figure a way to transport water to the field, probably being buckets if a hose was not long enough. Also leakage would be a huge problem. Lastly putting away a wet field would Be difficult due to slippage but also FIRST volunteers would have to figure a way to get rid of the water.
Exactly, plus teams would have to practice somehow. Rookie teams that year would be absolutely screwed. Not every team has the ability to have a pool for them to practice in. Then even the teams that might be allowed to use a pool, say from a local YMCA, could not be allowed to have it isolated for as long as they would need it to practice. For safety reasons (electricity and water) there would not be anyone in the water with the robot. I just don't see a water game in any form ever happening.
techhelpbb
11-04-2012, 13:18
Ice rink as in ice skating. Then it's a game on water.
:eek:
Ice rink as in ice skating. Then it's a game on water.
:eek:
That's basically what lunacy was.
RobotMom
11-04-2012, 13:58
Rookie teams that year would be absolutely screwed. Not every team has the ability to have a pool for them to practice in. .....
Nor the ability to shell out money for safety glasses AND safety goggles. ;)
DominickC
11-04-2012, 15:04
The most they would ever do would be something like having balls with different chemical symbols and then having us make Water by putting them in the right order....
This! This might just be the greatest troll of all times.
Grim Tuesday
11-04-2012, 15:08
I'm curious; when did the "water game" meme begin? It would be interesting to trace it back to its roots. Considering the age of Chief Delphi, it would actually be a really early meme, as they go.
I'm still hoping next year's game involves wind machines and artificial lightning.
I'm curious; when did the "water game" meme begin? It would be interesting to trace it back to its roots. Considering the age of Chief Delphi, it would actually be a really early meme, as they go.I made a thread on this a little while ago. It dates from at least 2001.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1064566#post1064566
:deadhorse:
(I wouldn't be surprised if one day, there was a game involving water in some way (not the whole field, for sure!)...
(I wouldn't be surprised if one day, there was a game involving water in some way (not the whole field, for sure!)...
1993. Some of the balls on the field had water inside.
The KOP contains 3 pairs of rubber boots and 3 offical FRC towels. It would certainly be exciting.
Nice....although don't you think we might need snorkels as well?
You would, however, also add to the volunteer position list. "Lifeguard" would be important, right?
MAldridge
11-04-2012, 23:27
but still atleast 6" thick acrylic walls would be needed to hold back the water, take a hit from the robots, and give the audience a clear view of whats going on under the water. perfectly clear 6" thick acrylic is quite expensive.
yes, but 0.5" thick transparent aluminum would work just fine...
Gigakaiser
12-04-2012, 00:44
:ahh:This thread is still going on...
G.Arizpe
12-04-2012, 01:29
But with this year also being a sport year, the next year will be completely random, so something relating to water, but not water itself, is possible.
I agree that next year will be something out of the ordinary, like was 2009's game of Lunacy. And messing with robots is expensive enough and fund-draining for new teams, but adding water will make for unnecessary waste of money on developing a new water-proof KOP.
Steve-Man
12-04-2012, 02:15
Next year's game will be a wildcard for sure, as it's (Probably) a non-sport based game.
However, the legendary water game is in a deck of it's own. As with the flying game. (Both of which can be found elsewhere in non FRC/FTC based robotics challenges)
I'm curious; when did the "water game" meme begin? It would be interesting to trace it back to its roots. Considering the age of Chief Delphi, it would actually be a really early meme, as they go.
I am very new to FIRST myself, but I was told by one of the other mentors that the water game meme goes back to the earliest days of FIRST, and was already quite prevent during colonial times. Incidentally I was also told that Dean Kamen's grandfather may have suggested the idea of a water game while accepting the first innovation award (called the concoction award at the time) for building a robot out of spruce, and controlling it with a pole. Up until that point the robots were supposedly built almost exclusively from corn husks.
techhelpbb
12-04-2012, 10:24
I'm pretty sure this joke has been around since at least 1998.
Then again increasingly a lot of you haven't been around since 1998.
Hobbles off with my cane.
Jenn Feathers
13-04-2012, 12:48
yes, but 0.5" thick transparent aluminum would work just fine...
can that hold up to being hit and what about props chopping through it?
Don't forget... plenty of kids are always new to FIRST and/or Chief Delphi ~ it isn't old to everyone. :]
I've heard this question brought up many times from members of our team. Although impractical... I love hearing them "dream big". ;)
I'm still fairly early in my FIRST career, but even I'm tired of it a little.
On another note, I would be very interested to see another game like Overdrive where the robots themselves act as scoring pieces sometime other than the endgame (obviously they do this year and have many times recently.
KevinGoneNuts
13-04-2012, 16:51
I'm still fairly early in my FIRST career, but even I'm tired of it a little.
On another note, I would be very interested to see another game like Overdrive where the robots themselves act as scoring pieces sometime other than the endgame (obviously they do this year and have many times recently.
I have a feeling the end game will probably stay for a while. It adds an element to the game that gives more teams the ability to actually compete. Many teams just focus on the endgame, because not all teams have the capabilities to score in teleop.
The endgame has been a factor since... Since... since alliances were introduced!
Since 1999, where your robot ends up at the end of the match has been worth points, with two exceptions: 2008, where it was where the trackballs ended up, and 2009, where the Supercells were in play. 2005's wasn't used much, because it was for all three robots or none, and you could easily beat it with some clever tetra placement.
Therefore, I make a prediction on the 2013 game: the 2013 game will include some form of endgame (item that only scores points in the last X seconds of teleop or after time expires).
PAR_WIG1350
13-04-2012, 17:46
yes, but 0.5" thick transparent aluminum would work just fine...
can that hold up to being hit and what about props chopping through it?
Well, there is an armor grade (https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.surmet.com%2Fpdfs%2FSu rmet%2520Optical%2520Ceramics%2520Brochure.pdf) version which can withstand multiple hits from .50 caliber rounds without being penetrated, but I'm not sure if it retains its water holding abilities. Also, the manufacturer claims that it "can be cost effectively scaled to high volumes," but that doesn't mean that the cost would be affordable. According to Wikipedia, the AG version is 10-15 dollars per square inch which makes it the most expensive 'bullet proof' window material.
kylelanman
13-04-2012, 18:03
Bill stopped by our pit at the QCR and we were talking about various things with him. The question was raised how he thought the mini-bots worked out. He fired the same question back. We gave him our opinion. In general more on the negative side. He then told us sarcastically that next years game was going to be a water game with mini-bots. Needless say he pretty much said neither was going to happen.
I have a feeling the end game will probably stay for a while. It adds an element to the game that gives more teams the ability to actually compete. Many teams just focus on the endgame, because not all teams have the capabilities to score in teleop.
I'm not advocating the axing of the endgame, I only proposed a change to the main game setup, in a way that makes it somewhat like the usual endgame. Obviously the game would include more than just going to the goal and staying there, robots would be able to score and move on to continue playing. I would be interested to see what kind of endgame the GDC would come up with.
rajikurbaj357
14-04-2012, 23:18
Another reason why this wouldn't be likely is that FIRST realizes that not everyone has access to water.
Some schools are fortunate enough to have pools on their school grounds, but others would just have to go to competition with no practice? Highly unlikely.
If they actually had a water game it would ruin the longest running inside joke between every member of FRC! hahaha!
But seriously, when thought about, the risks involved with electronics and water are far to high in my opinion. Unless they have us building remote controlled boats, I don't see a water game in our future, or at least the near future. Maybe it will be the 50th anniversary game. :D
MrForbes
15-04-2012, 10:52
But seriously, when thought about, the risks involved with electronics and water are far to high in my opinion.
There's not much risk if you do it certain ways. Having all the electronics on shore is pretty low risk.
techhelpbb
15-04-2012, 11:01
If they actually had a water game it would ruin the longest running inside joke between every member of FRC! hahaha!
But seriously, when thought about, the risks involved with electronics and water are far to high in my opinion. Unless they have us building remote controlled boats, I don't see a water game in our future, or at least the near future. Maybe it will be the 50th anniversary game. :D
Well on the plus side you won't have a problem finding water to put out the fire. Unless of course the robot is made of magnesium (or aluminum with high magnesium content)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOpsB5n9DZ8
I was recently at the Seattle Regional and both Dean Kamen and Bill (the FRC director attended). Everyone keeps wanting a water game, and while i think it would be cool, robots and water don't mix. Scarily, both Dean and Bill were hinting at a possible water game next year. Bill even stated "To those of you asking for a water game, be careful what you wish for". So, are they being serious or just trolling us like FIRST does all the time? What do you think?
I want to say no water game, just following the jokes. :P However, it would be cool to see a game with an obsticle of a small pond, you know, with water? That'd be very interesting to see.
Can get a little more serious about it..... in 2009 we "simulated" low gravity with regolith and nylon wheels. So simulate the water molecules with larger models such as those found in ball pits. BAZINGA ! !
falconmaster
21-04-2012, 14:57
I was recently at the Seattle Regional and both Dean Kamen and Bill (the FRC director attended). Everyone keeps wanting a water game, and while i think it would be cool, robots and water don't mix. Scarily, both Dean and Bill were hinting at a possible water game next year. Bill even stated "To those of you asking for a water game, be careful what you wish for". So, are they being serious or just trolling us like FIRST does all the time? What do you think?
We have been doing underwater robots for years! Bring it on!
Jenn Feathers
21-04-2012, 16:50
was there ever a game with even a small amount of water involved?
was there ever a game with even a small amount of water involved?
1993's Rug Rage had water used inside some of the game balls.
2009 had water sprayed onto the field in early weeks to try to stop static buildup.
Bill Miller said a similar thing at QCR. The crowd was awash in speculation, but I suspect he was dripping with sarcasm.
Oh good, the puns are back. :]
1993. Some of the balls on the field had water inside.
Okay, so I guess the idea of 'we've never had a water game' is sunk.
z_beeblebrox
21-04-2012, 19:53
A water game would be awesome (especially with our mentors http://selectric.org/nurc12/index.html), but it won't happen.
A water game would be awesome (especially with our mentors http://selectric.org/nurc12/index.html), but it won't happen.
The thing I love about you saying it would be awesome, is that you're in Arizona.
Jenn Feathers
22-04-2012, 13:02
1993's Rug Rage had water used inside some of the game balls.
2009 had water sprayed onto the field in early weeks to try to stop static buildup.
this got me thinking, how about a game where water IS the game piece? it would definitly be interesting, plus it'll add a new challenge for teams to overcome and new technology for us to learn through FIRST.
How do you corral and control a liquid? If it's in a casing, then the casing is actually the game piece, and it's filled with water. Otherwise, I don't know how you could "score" water through some type of goal apparatus.
Zebra_Fact_Man
23-04-2012, 00:34
Maybe we'll get another bean-bag game like 1999.
Maybe we'll get another bean-bag game like 1999.
I remember hearing that that wouldn't happen again. You think inflatables with a slow leak are bad, try foam peanuts in a nylon bag that get thrashed around for a bunch of matches. (And hopefully the bag stays closed!) Inflatables you can patch and replace easily, or refill every now and again. Foam peanuts, not so much.
At least, that's what I remember being inside those things. Being only 10 at the time, and not on the team officially, I might not have the best memory, though.
Jenn Feathers
23-04-2012, 01:37
How do you corral and control a liquid? If it's in a casing, then the casing is actually the game piece, and it's filled with water. Otherwise, I don't know how you could "score" water through some type of goal apparatus.
transport the water thru some sort of obsticle to fill a container of some sort. whoever has the most plus the end game wins... nice and simple idea for a first time water game?
Robert Cawthon
24-04-2012, 14:14
How do you corral and control a liquid? If it's in a casing, then the casing is actually the game piece, and it's filled with water. Otherwise, I don't know how you could "score" water through some type of goal apparatus.
Water pistols at 10 wheel revolutions? (Can't use 10 paces since most or all of the bots don't have legs.) :eek:
there are so many problems dealing with water.
1. Electronics and water dont mix
2. We need to be able to clean up spilled water.
3. People might slip if water leaked, not just at competition but in workshops.
4. Any field that is water based could leak or if it broke, we would flood the stadium.
5. Moving all the regional to site with a pool would be a disaster.
6. Most people with a pool won't let you use a pool.
It would be cool to have a game with lots of tiny ping pong balls. this could simulate a fluid motion(I'm thinking about the ball pits) and using some sort of vacuum device would be easy clean up.
Solidstate89
01-05-2012, 12:07
Every year they tease a water game, but I don't see it ever happening. I remember when last year the teaser image was a pool with the pool tubes floating in them. And then during Kick-off when Will.i.am and Woody and everyone else kept bringing out all the inflatable tubes I was wondering to myself; "Are they REALLY going with a water game?" But alas, my crazed dreams were dashed yet another year.
I find the mathematical equation to what year the "Water Game" will occur is n + 1 where n = the current year. So 2013 will be the water game, and then 2014, and then 2015...
Coincidentally, though totally unrelated, that is the same equation for figuring out the "Year of the Linux desktop" as well. :p
Maybe we'll get another bean-bag game like 1999.
Done. (http://www.vexforum.com/wiki/index.php/Sack_Attack)
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