View Full Version : The FIRST Alliance - A whole new way to play
mobilegamer999
11-04-2012, 00:15
Hello, some of you may have seen the post yesterday teasing at a new way of doing things at events, keeping updated with events, and watching a teams progression.
What we made was not only a nice website for anybody to be able to track an event live as its happening, but also a foundation for everybody in the FIRST community to build on. Our website not only houses an extensive database containing all of 2012 and all future seasons' data, but it also houses a public API for anybody to use and expand upon to develop their own websites/desktop application/mobile applications, etc.
There are many new features planned down the road, and many a bug fix as well, but all input from you is what will really make this website shine.
As of now, the website is definitely in an alpha/beta state and we will be continuing to update as per the community's requests. Please submit any and all feedback to contact@thefirstalliance.org
And.... Without further ado, we present to you
www.thefirstalliance.org
Andrew Lawrence
11-04-2012, 00:17
It's BEAUTIFUL! Thanks so much!
Awesome! Link's broken, though... :(
Try that... although the one in the post is working for me.
http://thefirstalliance.org/
biancs15
11-04-2012, 00:21
Wow guys this is completely AWESOME!
Wow guys this is completely AWESOME!
Thanks! We've got a ton of other features planned down the road. We'll share the roadmap with you guys a little later. As of now, the site is just a sweet wrapper for what our public api (http://thefirstalliance.org/apidoc.php) can do.
Can't wait to show you guys what's next. So excited!
It's BEAUTIFUL! Thanks so much!
Thanks alot! We're really excited to be bringing a gorgeous and professional webapp to FRC teams/members. Honestly, some of the other services out there have seriously neglected usability. It's sad...
As we move forward, we're going to make this thing a heck of a lot prettier too! The next major release we're going to be pushing the boundaries of what you can do with web interfaces.
Thanks again man!
GBilletdeaux930
11-04-2012, 00:32
You guys planning on hosting match videos to be accessible through your api as well?
You guys planning on hosting match videos to be accessible through your api as well?
That's something we've talked about, but honestly they'll have to be user submitted. Videos aren't a priority right now, as we're going to focus on some other really exciting stuff.
Justin Montois
11-04-2012, 00:36
...going to focus on some other really exciting stuff.
Care to share?
Looks like a good start.
mobilegamer999
11-04-2012, 00:43
Care to share?
Looks like a good start.
Were working on putting an official roadmap together that should be up in the next day or two.
RyanCahoon
11-04-2012, 00:47
Looks awesome guys. Any plans on short URLs ala frclinks?
Also, posible bug report: Looks like the W/L/T column is only colored in the first row on team pages.
Eugene Fang
11-04-2012, 00:52
Cool site. Data for some events seem to be missing?
Example:
http://www.thefirstalliance.org/event.php?event-code=CAF
Cool site. Data for some events seem to be missing?
Example:
http://www.thefirstalliance.org/event.php?event-code=CAF
I'll take a look at it tomorrow. Thanks!
If anyone else finds anything just send us an email at:
contact@thefirstalliance.org
I have to agree with everyone else, this is a fantastic tool. Thank you so much. I have a couple of comments after a brief look.
1) I may have missed it, but is there a way to access data from past years? If not currently, will this be added later?
2) Currently on the elimination pages, it lists the alliances ranks as 0-7 instead of 1-8 when listing them in the upper left. Not a big deal, just something I noticed.
Again, great job with this, and I look forward to seeing how it progresses from here!
I have to agree with everyone else, this is a fantastic tool. Thank you so much. I have a couple of comments after a brief look.
1) I may have missed it, but is there a way to access data from past years? If not currently, will this be added later?
2) Currently on the elimination pages, it lists the alliances ranks as 0-7 instead of 1-8 when listing them in the upper left. Not a big deal, just something I noticed.
Again, great job with this, and I look forward to seeing how it progresses from here!
Thanks for the feedback. Our database has records from previous years, but we're still building the api to accommodate that. That's one of the features I can tell you will be released shortly.
Someone else just sent me an email about the elims. Thanks so much guys!
Gray Adams
11-04-2012, 01:10
I was just about to ask about previous years data.
Anyway, really cool site, and I'm sure it's going to get a whole lot better.
By the way, links to team websites are pretty broken. It tries to go to http://thefirstalliance.org/www.greybots.com when you click the link, instead of www.greybots.com (to use 973 as an arbitrary example)
How is this different than the blue alliance? So far it looks like it shows exactly the same information.
Thad House
11-04-2012, 01:14
Something I just noticed is that in the elimination section the pick numbers are reversed. So the #3 is actually #1 and #1 is actually #3. Also sometimes #1 is switched with #2.
How is this different than the blue alliance? So far it looks like it shows exactly the same information.
I'd imagine they're touting the extensibility/access they are building into it?
I was just about to ask about previous years data.
Anyway, really cool site, and I'm sure it's going to get a whole lot better.
By the way, links to team websites are pretty broken. It tries to go to http://thefirstalliance.org/www.greybots.com when you click the link, instead of www.greybots.com (to use 973 as an arbitrary example)
What browser are you using?
*EDIT: Nevermind, confirmed bug in multiple browsers. Will fix soon.
I'd imagine they're touting the extensibility/access they are building into it?
I can't really comment too much about this, but all I can say is that what you see is very much the tip of the iceberg. We're interested in building something much bigger than an statistics portal.
Roadmap will come soon.
Lil' Lavery
11-04-2012, 01:25
So, um, elimination brackets, elimination alliances (that aren't even close to 100% correct), and rankings are what separates this from TBA? I don't mean to be rude, but I really don't see why I'd use this website instead of the currently existing resources.
So, um, elimination brackets, elimination alliances (that aren't even close to 100% correct), and rankings are what separates this from TBA? I don't mean to be rude, but I really don't see why I'd use this website instead of the currently existing resources.
We're aware of the bugs you mentioned and are working to fix them. To address your other thoughts...
What you see right now is literally just the tip of the iceberg. An official roadmap is on the way, so I can't go in to too much detail. What I can say, however, our site is designed to be the most usable, reliable, and accurate (working on that one guys!), source for official FRC information out there.
We see the site's users being anyone who wants a quality and professional way to access important information they'll use for scouting or what not. We also envision creative types using our API for their projects, eliminating the painful process of writing their own solution to acquire FRC data.
We realize it's still pretty alpha right now, but we wanted to get it out to the community ASAP to build excitement, get feedback, and make The FIRST Alliance (http://thefirstalliance.org) the best possible product it can be. Thanks for your feedback.
I like the "API first" objective. Having a standard API for all this data is a plus, and the website looks really clean. At the risk of making a judgment before you've laid out your vision and roadmap, I'm unsure what this brings to the table. TBA already has an API (http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv/api/apidocs.pdf), and the results web pages on the FIRST site, while ugly, are stable and easy to scrape data from.
What we need is not more APIs or more apps, but more data.
If someone can come up with a stable API for the twitter data that works from year to year, or a means for teams to collaboratively upload their scouting data, then we'd have something exciting, perhaps even game-changing. But right now, it's just the same data over and over again.
I like the "API first" objective. Having a standard API for all this data is a plus, and the website looks really clean. At the risk of making a judgment before you've laid out your vision and roadmap, I'm unsure what this brings to the table. TBA already has an API (http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv/api/apidocs.pdf), and the results web pages on the FIRST site, while ugly, are stable and easy to scrape data from.
What we need is not more APIs or more apps, but more data.
If someone can come up with a stable API for the twitter data that works from year to year, or a means for teams to collaboratively upload their scouting data, then we'd have something exciting, perhaps even game-changing. But right now, it's just the same data over and over again.
I think that we offer something unique and fresh by starting over, getting a lot of input from the FIRST community early on (ie right now), and working from that angle.
Our API is totally public and transparent. Anyone can access it. The fact that you said "the results web pages on the FIRST site, while ugly, are stable and easy to scrape data from" says there's a major problem FRC teams are facing - there aren't any good APIs out there! Our site is built on top of our API. So as we grow the site, our API grows along with it. Our data is literally your data.
MagiChau
11-04-2012, 04:55
Something I just noticed is that in the elimination section the pick numbers are reversed. So the #3 is actually #1 and #1 is actually #3. Also sometimes #1 is switched with #2.
I imagined the elimination alliances are scraped from the FIRST event information so there would be no indication of which pick order were for each team.
I love the visual bracket of how elimination went. I don't know if you are already planning it but it would be neat to scrape data from twitter for individual matches of hybrid, tele-op, and bridge points for each alliance. I know there is missing data for entire events or just individual matches.
The ability to sort matches by scores seems to be able to compliment such a feature.
Very nice work with the programming.
Joseph Bisch
11-04-2012, 07:39
I like the "API first" objective. Having a standard API for all this data is a plus, and the website looks really clean. At the risk of making a judgment before you've laid out your vision and roadmap, I'm unsure what this brings to the table. TBA already has an API (http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv/api/apidocs.pdf), and the results web pages on the FIRST site, while ugly, are stable and easy to scrape data from.
That API you link to for TBA is old. When I last tried using it, it did not provide current data.
There is a new API for the new version of TBA. This API does not require an API key and returns data using json.
An example request URL is:
http://www.thebluealliance.com/api/v1/events/show?year=2012
Going back to the topic of this thread, are there any plans to open source The FIRST Alliance?
Thanks! That was Ben's last minute addition that caused us to launch at 12:20ish not 12:00! As you can see it's still pretty alpha, but yeah we're excited about the possibilities that feature has.
We're aware of the match data that's missing and we're trying to fix it as fast as we can. If you do notice anything wrong, please send us an email at:
contact@thefirstalliance.org
Thanks!
I imagined the elimination alliances are scraped from the FIRST event information so there would be no indication of which pick order were for each team.
I love the visual bracket of how elimination went. I don't know if you are already planning it but it would be neat to scrape data from twitter for individual matches of hybrid, tele-op, and bridge points for each alliance. I know there is missing data for entire events or just individual matches.
The ability to sort matches by scores seems to be able to compliment such a feature.
Very nice work with the programming.
Littleboy
11-04-2012, 18:07
A couple of things:
1. In the rankings section for the events, it has the order being …BP|TP|WLT|HP… I would suggest putting HP before WLT.
2. The alliance numbers aren't correct in the elimination teams section. It has 0-7 instead of 1-8. Who has heard of the 0th seeded alliance?
3. Possibly add links to TBA/TRA, webcasts, opr, other useful sites
4. Possibly include actual data per individual team. (Have people send in scouting data after the event?)
5. Looks pretty good.
stens987
11-04-2012, 19:19
Great website! It is already bookmarked and I'm sure it will be a useful resource for me. I really like e bracket diagram under the event page.
So far I only typed in our team number, but it wasn't showing data for the Las Vegas Regional on our team page. It was under the event page though. I'm using my iPad, so maybe the mobile version has an error- or of course it could be user error ;). Anyway, you said to let you know any bugs or errors, so I thought I should mention it. :)
I don't know if it's too early to offer suggestions, and I know that this is reminiscent of The Blue Alliance, but if it was possible to go back and forth from a team's page to the data for the events they participated in and vice-versa, that would be nice. It would make moving around the website easier if I didn't have to go back to the front page every time I wanted to switch from looking at teams to looking through events.
Great job on creating another resource for FIRSTers!
One thing on your stats for Spokane...our third match (which was a win) was a surrogate and therefore needs to be removed from our win column (currently shows as 10-1-1 with 11 matches played).
Overall a great start on what I am sure will prove a valuable resource...
mobilegamer999
11-04-2012, 19:38
Just as a quick update, we already surpassed over 10,000 individual API requests since the launch a mere 20 hours ago. I thank all of you who support us and we will be bringing more and more content and fixes to the site over the next few weeks, and well into the future.
DominickC
12-04-2012, 14:48
I like the site. Easy to navigate your extensive database.
Just one issue. When clicking on a team's website via their team page, the url which it points me to is always prefaced with a second http://.
I like the site. Easy to navigate your extensive database.
Just one issue. When clicking on a team's website via their team page, the url which it points me to is always prefaced with a second http://.
Yup we've found the issue and are going to fix it when we update the site tonight. Thanks for the feedback!
kylelanman
14-04-2012, 00:34
I think I found a bug....that or I don't understand the API....
When hitting this URL:http://www.thefirstalliance.org/api/api.json.php?action=event-teams&event-code=OHC
It returns:
{"result":true,"data":"MySql Error for query(SELECT t.number, t.id FROM\n((SELECT red_1_id as id from Matches m, events e where m.event_id=e.id and e.api_name='OHC' group by red_1_id)UNION\n(SELECT red_2_id from Matches m, events e where m.event_id=e.id and e.api_name='OHC' group by red_2_id)UNION\n(SELECT red_2_id from Matches m, events e where m.event_id=e.id and e.api_name='OHC' group by red_3_id)UNION\n(SELECT blue_1_id from Matches m, events e where m.event_id=e.id and e.api_name='OHC' group by blue_1_id)UNION\n(SELECT blue_2_id from Matches m, events e where m.event_id=e.id and e.api_name='OHC' group by blue_2_id)UNION\n(SELECT blue_3_id from Matches m, events e where m.event_id=e.id and e.api_name='OHC' group by blue_3_id)) as team_list,\nteams t where team_list.id= t.id)Error: Table 'db409593564.Matches' doesn't exist"}
Every other time I used an incorrect parameter it returned with result = false and not an SQL error.
Aside from that, great job this site has a lot of potential.
mobilegamer999
14-04-2012, 19:00
I think I found a bug....that or I don't understand the API....
When hitting this URL:http://www.thefirstalliance.org/api/api.json.php?action=event-teams&event-code=OHC
It returns:
{"result":true,"data":"MySql Error for query(SELECT t.number, t.id FROM\n((SELECT red_1_id as id from Matches m, events e where m.event_id=e.id and e.api_name='OHC' group by red_1_id)UNION\n(SELECT red_2_id from Matches m, events e where m.event_id=e.id and e.api_name='OHC' group by red_2_id)UNION\n(SELECT red_2_id from Matches m, events e where m.event_id=e.id and e.api_name='OHC' group by red_3_id)UNION\n(SELECT blue_1_id from Matches m, events e where m.event_id=e.id and e.api_name='OHC' group by blue_1_id)UNION\n(SELECT blue_2_id from Matches m, events e where m.event_id=e.id and e.api_name='OHC' group by blue_2_id)UNION\n(SELECT blue_3_id from Matches m, events e where m.event_id=e.id and e.api_name='OHC' group by blue_3_id)) as team_list,\nteams t where team_list.id= t.id)Error: Table 'db409593564.Matches' doesn't exist"}
Every other time I used an incorrect parameter it returned with result = false and not an SQL error.
Aside from that, great job this site has a lot of potential.
Okay, fixed that bug, thank you very much for notcing that.
Ok big update!
First we want to say a big "THANK YOU" to everyone in the FIRST community who has given positive and negative feedback, we've taken everyone's suggestions into account and are working on making The FIRST Alliance even better.
In the past five days we've averaged 5,000 API hits per day, and currently are slightly over 20,000 total hits.
The Big Announcement:
We've finalized an official roadmap for the site!
Check it out at: http://thefirstalliance.org/roadmap.php
Let us know what you think by replying to the thread or sending an email to contact@thefirstalliance.org
**We've fixed several bugs as well. Elimination brackets are mostly fixed, however we suspect they will break under certain edge cases, so if you notice anything please let us know. The team website issue has been resolved. As far as we know, all data has been downloaded and put into our database, but if you notice any oddities let us know by emailing contact@thefirstalliance.org.
Thanks to all of you again! We can't wait to show you what's next!
Alan Anderson
15-04-2012, 16:02
In the past five days we've averaged 5,000 API hits per day, and currently are slightly over 20,000 total hits.
Something doesn't add up here. Is there a typo?
mobilegamer999
15-04-2012, 16:47
Something doesn't add up here. Is there a typo?
There is a little bit of rounding up and a little bit of rounding down. The current total as of right now is 23,000 requests, but the average is pretty effected by inrush from the first day.
Something doesn't add up here. Is there a typo?
Sorry about that. Here's how it breaks down:
At the end of today we're on track to receive 25,000 total API hits.
It's been five days since we launched.
That averages out to 5,000 hits per day.
My brain seemed to turn into mush there, thanks for pointing that out!
flippy147852
16-04-2012, 09:06
Would it be possible to add a team robot photo to the team page (user uploaded, of course) sometime down the road? Also, will outside scouting data eventually find its way on this site, or will it be based more on official data?
mobilegamer999
16-04-2012, 11:51
Update: Team pages now have a section where you can upload an image of a robot along with a caption to be viewed by all. As of right now, all images need to be verified first by an admin due to the public nature of the website. If we don't have many incidents after a while we will talk about removing the verification process.
Does anybody have any suggestions of things they would like to see on this website?
mobilegamer999
16-04-2012, 11:52
Would it be possible to add a team robot photo to the team page (user uploaded, of course) sometime down the road? Also, will outside scouting data eventually find its way on this site, or will it be based more on official data?
Dude.....I literally started working on that feature last night and finished it this morning, you can go have a look at the website.
flippy147852
17-04-2012, 16:46
upload mechanism works great! Thanks :D
I like the overall OPR and DPR. Any chance of including rankings or doing it by event as well? And/or by auton, teleop, end game (Twitter-dependent)? Other cool OPRnet like features would be great, too--sched, or even selected matches. (OPRnet is fantastic, but I tend to do better with GUIs...)
Ok, I like OPR. Flawed as it is.
Also, any thought in including the team's standings & awards on each event page and/or an overall team page?
In elimination mode for an event, is there any particular reason that the teams listed in "Elimination Teams" are not hyperlinked?
I like the overall OPR and DPR. Any chance of including rankings or doing it by event as well? And/or by auton, teleop, end game (Twitter-dependent)? Other cool OPRnet like features would be great, too--sched, or even selected matches. (OPRnet is fantastic, but I tend to do better with GUIs...)
Could you also include a paper explaining how you're calculating OPR and DPR? And on that note, could you include separate columns doing OPR by hoops/bridge?
It's still great though :)
I like the overall OPR and DPR. Any chance of including rankings or doing it by event as well? And/or by auton, teleop, end game (Twitter-dependent)? Other cool OPRnet like features would be great, too--sched, or even selected matches. (OPRnet is fantastic, but I tend to do better with GUIs...)
Ok, I like OPR. Flawed as it is.
Also, any thought in including the team's standings & awards on each event page and/or an overall team page?
In elimination mode for an event, is there any particular reason that the teams listed in "Elimination Teams" are not hyperlinked?
It isn't in the roadmap (http://thefirstalliance.org/roadmap.php) yet, but we're working on it now actually.
mobilegamer999
18-04-2012, 00:37
OPR and DPR are calculated as described below. This is the same way that they are calculated for OPRNet and all other opr programs.
Take all teams at an event, count this set as T.
Create a matrix which is TxT, so you end up with a column and row for every team. We will refer to this as M and will describe how many times a team plays another.
So if T was (1,5,9) the M would be
1 5 9
1 - - -
5 - - -
9 - - -
Also, make a matrix that is 1xT and this will be O and will contain sum of all points a team scored
and thirdly, made a matrix 1xT which will be called D, and will contain sum of all points scored against a team
Now, for every match at an event follow the next few steps of logic
1) Increment M[A,B], if A!=B, increment M[B,A]
2) do 1 with A = red 1, B = red 1
3) do 1 with A = red 1, B = red 2
4) do 1 with A = red 1, B = red 3
5) do 1 with A = red 2, B = red 2
6) do 1 with A = red 2, B = red 3
7) do 1 with A = red 3, B = red 3
8) 2-7 with blue instead of red
9) for all red teams, O[red 1-3] += red_score
10) for all red teams, D[red 1-3] += blue_score
11) for all blue teams, O[blue 1-3] += blue_score
12) for all blue teams, D[blue 1-3] += red_score
then take inv(M) * O, and you get OPR's
and take inv(M) * D, and you get DPR's
this write-up may be a bit flawed, but thats the general flow of how OPR's and DPR's are calculated.
Also, right now we do have OPR's and DPR's per-team per-event, but as of now, we don't really have a clean place to put those details. So the power-rankings page is just the highest average OPR/DPR.
mobilegamer999
18-04-2012, 00:40
In elimination mode for an event, is there any particular reason that the teams listed in "Elimination Teams" are not hyperlinked?
Yes.....a VERY good reason......I forgot, its fixed now, thanks for the bug report.
Grim Tuesday
18-04-2012, 01:01
Glitch in eliminations view: The X's cascade back. For example, the second alliance won the regional in the finals vs the first. The first alliance is listed as losing all previous matches in the diagram.
I really like where this website is going. While you're doing OPR, as someone above mentioned, Teleop OPR and Bridge OPR are really the only useful ones this year. While you're at it, CCWM is another measure of team performance.
mobilegamer999
18-04-2012, 01:05
Glitch in eliminations view: The X's cascade back. For example, the second alliance won the regional in the finals vs the first. The first alliance is listed as losing all previous matches in the diagram.
I really like where this website is going. While you're doing OPR, as someone above mentioned, Teleop OPR and Bridge OPR are really the only useful ones this year. While you're at it, CCWM is another measure of team performance.
I've never heard of CCWM, I'll look into it a bit.
Second, the way the X's work is showing how a team is eliminated, so instead of showing where they won up to and crossing them out there, it crosses them out over the whole thing as soon as they no longer make it to the next level. I was probably thinking of doing it more like the former, but probably just use green for all 'won' sections, then red where they were eliminated.
I've never heard of CCWM, I'll look into it a bit.If I recall correctly, CCWM = OPR - DPR. Calculated Contribution to Winning Margin (predictably) uses the team's alliances' winning margins rather than points score by (OPR) or on (DPR) them.
As far as how you're calculating OPR & DPR, this is actually a more loaded question than most years. I don't know if it's what slijin meant, but people are indeed calculating it differently this year, mostly by weighting Co-Op as bridge points. The conversations happened in a few of the different OPR threads, but the general gist was 5 or 10 points per CP.
Looking at the eliminations page, what is the W-L-T column meant to represent? In its current implementation, it appears to be whether the blue alliance won, lost, or tied, but I guess I fail to see how this data is relevant.
Walter Deitzler
18-04-2012, 10:46
After seeing the robot picture feature, what if The FIRST alliance had a robot reveal video feature too? I know that people are asking for matches, but I think a reveal would be interesting and different.
Just an idea.
Andrew Lawrence
18-04-2012, 10:52
After seeing the robot picture feature, what if The FIRST alliance had a robot reveal video feature too? I know that people are asking for matches, but I think a reveal would be interesting and different.
Just an idea.
I second that. There needs to be a place on the internet where all of the unveil videos are kept together, and it may as well be the FIRST Alliance.
Hmm... really interesting idea. We'll look into it.
mobilegamer999
18-04-2012, 12:07
After seeing the robot picture feature, what if The FIRST alliance had a robot reveal video feature too? I know that people are asking for matches, but I think a reveal would be interesting and different.
Just an idea.
I really like this idea, we should have something up in the next day or two.
mobilegamer999
18-04-2012, 14:15
Okay, that went a little quicker than expected. You can now link any youtube video on TFA.
Patrick Flynn
18-04-2012, 14:27
I was wondering if the videos, or photos that are posted are moderated and how it would be possible to remove either a picture or video? And if this isnt possible if it would be able to make some moderators or allow users to remove team photos
mobilegamer999
18-04-2012, 14:31
I was wondering if the videos, or photos that are posted are moderated and how it would be possible to remove either a picture or video? And if this isnt possible if it would be able to make some moderators or allow users to remove team photos
Yesterday I had it so images had to be approved by an admin before they were displayed, but after many annoying emails from my system, I decided that for now images will be open, until there is any sort of issue. If there are any issues/incidents in the future, I will re-enable to approval system. As far as videos go, those are also immediate and will fall under the same rules of unrestricted until first incident.
Quest a quick update:
We just rolled out new features to our api. See them on our documentation (http://thefirstalliance.org/apidoc.php) at the end of the page. Now you can get the opr/dpr of each team at an event.
Also, you can compare a team's OPR/DPR by event. Click the "OPR/DPR History" link on the team page. Ex.
http://thefirstalliance.org/team.php?team-number=3357
Keep sending in your suggestions, you guys are coming up with great ideas!
rogerlsmith
19-04-2012, 20:26
I'm learning how to use the api, and have hit a bit of a snag. I'm requesting the "team-details" and all I get back are team info and no match data. I'm supplying team number and either the event id or event code and not getting any match info. Any ideas?
So far I've been very impressed, you guys have done well!
Keep up the good work.
If I recall correctly, CCWM = OPR - DPR. Calculated Contribution to Winning Margin (predictably) uses the team's alliances' winning margins rather than points score by (OPR) or on (DPR) them.
As far as how you're calculating OPR & DPR, this is actually a more loaded question than most years. I don't know if it's what slijin meant, but people are indeed calculating it differently this year, mostly by weighting Co-Op as bridge points. The conversations happened in a few of the different OPR threads, but the general gist was 5 or 10 points per CP.
It somewhat is, but not specifically - although I was requesting "hoop/bridge OPR" based on similar reasons. :) What I was requesting specifically - and should have been explained better - was an OPR based on only points scored in hoops and an OPR based on only points scored from balancing (with some sort of weighted addition for coopertition balancing). The reason is that, in my opinion, a general OPR doesn't really capture how well a team is at a certain aspect of the game - whether a team can consistently score 20 points by hoops or 20 points by balancing in qualifications, their OPR will come out to be ~20. The reason for asking DPR was because I've seen quite a bit of discussion on how it should be calculated.
It would indeed be great to see Power Rankings (http://www.thefirstalliance.org/power-rankings.php) updated with CCWM and various such OPR ratings. Would it also be possible to see Power Rankings extended to all teams (placed in a scrollbox or something of the sort)?
OPR and DPR are calculated as described below. This is the same way that they are calculated for OPRNet and all other opr programs.
Take all teams at an event, count this set as T.
Create a matrix which is TxT, so you end up with a column and row for every team. We will refer to this as M and will describe how many times a team plays another.
So if T was (1,5,9) the M would be
1 5 9
1 - - -
5 - - -
9 - - -
Also, make a matrix that is 1xT and this will be O and will contain sum of all points a team scored
and thirdly, made a matrix 1xT which will be called D, and will contain sum of all points scored against a team
Now, for every match at an event follow the next few steps of logic
1) Increment M[A,B], if A!=B, increment M[B,A]
2) do 1 with A = red 1, B = red 1
3) do 1 with A = red 1, B = red 2
4) do 1 with A = red 1, B = red 3
5) do 1 with A = red 2, B = red 2
6) do 1 with A = red 2, B = red 3
7) do 1 with A = red 3, B = red 3
8) 2-7 with blue instead of red
9) for all red teams, O[red 1-3] += red_score
10) for all red teams, D[red 1-3] += blue_score
11) for all blue teams, O[blue 1-3] += blue_score
12) for all blue teams, D[blue 1-3] += red_score
then take inv(M) * O, and you get OPR's
and take inv(M) * D, and you get DPR's
this write-up may be a bit flawed, but thats the general flow of how OPR's and DPR's are calculated.
Also, right now we do have OPR's and DPR's per-team per-event, but as of now, we don't really have a clean place to put those details. So the power-rankings page is just the highest average OPR/DPR.
As Siri pointed out, this year just a general OPR is somewhat flawed, as it doesn't take into account coop bridge balancing, which is why I asked for this explanation. For the ease of similarly interested viewers though, could this be posted at the top of the Power Rankings (http://www.thefirstalliance.org/power-rankings.php) page?
You may also want to consider including an explanation of what these terms are. For people familiar with them, it's easy to understand what the numbers mean, but for people who're just looking around, columns with teams, OPRs and DPRs must be quite bewildering.
mobilegamer999
19-04-2012, 23:38
I'm learning how to use the api, and have hit a bit of a snag. I'm requesting the "team-details" and all I get back are team info and no match data. I'm supplying team number and either the event id or event code and not getting any match info. Any ideas?
So far I've been very impressed, you guys have done well!
Keep up the good work.
Looks like there was a mis-type in the API doc, it should be team-matches and not team-details.
rogerlsmith
21-04-2012, 00:26
Thanks for the help Ben; my project is complete (at least the first phase).
I've used the FIRST Alliance API to produce a nifty spreadsheet of all the teams on Newton.
See this topic on our team's website:
http://comets.firstobjective.org/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=5&id=66&Itemid=138
Thanks again for the help, you guys have done an awesome job!
rogerlsmith
21-04-2012, 20:15
There were a couple problems in the spreadsheet I created. The problems were incorrect Wins / Loss record. The problem has been fixed and the updated version can be downloaded from the link in my previous comment. Look for the file "Newton_2.zip"
Just a quick update:
We're working on a mobile version of the site. You can visit it here, but it's no where near being complete. http://m.thefirstalliance.org
Also, you can now view a team's OPR/DPR per event by clicking "OPR/DPR History" on a team's page. This functionality has also been added to the API, see the documentation (http://thefirstalliance.org/apidoc.php).
Also, a new stats mode has been added to the event pages. You can sort teams in an event based on various metrics we've gathered. Enjoy!
http://thefirstalliance.org/
EDIT: The layout and design of our stats mode page was inspired by FRC Data Miner. Thanks to Zach O for doing such a great job on the site.
Also, a new stats mode has been added to the event pages. You can sort teams in an event based on various metrics we've gathered. Enjoy!
Looks familiar
mobilegamer999
23-04-2012, 15:42
Looks familiar
How so?
How so?
http://frcminer.team2337.com/gl/
Justin Montois
23-04-2012, 15:45
How so?
http://frcminer.team2337.com/roc/
Joe Ross
23-04-2012, 15:50
I think it's funny that 3357 does not have a robot picture posted on the FIRST Alliance.
mobilegamer999
23-04-2012, 15:52
Haven't seen that site before, but I'm not suprised that there is something similar out there, I'ts the most compact way to show that information.
Haven't seen that site before, but I'm not suprised that there is something similar out there, I'ts the most compact way to show that information.
Don't worry. Grant has.
basicxman
23-04-2012, 15:54
Haven't seen that site before, but I'm not suprised that there is something similar out there, I'ts the most compact way to show that information.
It's been a pretty popular site launched a couple weeks ago. FRC Miner has gotten a lot of publicity.
Clinton Bolinger
23-04-2012, 15:54
Haven't seen that site before, but I'm not suprised that there is something similar out there, I'ts the most compact way to show that information.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1157127&postcount=11
-Clinton-
I think it show a lot of interest and great work, but with large number of new FRC resource sites showing up, I'm left wishing that teams would have worked together on a single site.
Personally I've always been a fan of TBA, and they've always looked for more people to help out... seems people are choosing to go on their own instead.
Eugene Fang
23-04-2012, 16:01
I think it show a lot of interest and great work, but with large number of new FRC resource sites showing up, I'm left wishing that teams would have worked together on a single site.
Personally I've always been a fan of TBA, and they've always looked for more people to help out... seems people are choosing to go on their own instead.
That's why TBA is open source, as opposed to many of the newer sites popping up. This way, developers can contribute to a single resource and make it better as opposed to having a fragmented developer community.
This way, developers can contribute to a single resource and make it better as opposed to having a fragmented developer community.
I'd be cool if we could have seen the same continuity between watchfirstnow.com (since 2011) and madstream.team1323.com (http://madstream.team1323.com/) (since 2012)
So a couple of things I should clarify guys.
First, we've been getting some feedback about our stats mode on the site recently. Specifically people have been accusing us of copying FRC Data Miner. There is also evidence that I saw the page and liked it a lot.
Ben never actually saw the site, I just suggested incorporating a layout and design like Data Miner's into this page we were already planning on building. Having said that, we're constantly pushing forward and incorporating new ideas into the site so when we see something good and that fits into our vision of TheFIRSTAlliance.org (http://thefirstalliance.org) we try to incorporate it into the site. We also make plans to improve what is already out there and tailor it to our needs. There's nothing wrong with that guys, competition makes all solutions better.
Now to address why we're not releasing TFA (http://thefirstalliance.org/)as open source or trying to work with other existing services.
1. We're still starting out. We have a vision and a strong following already, but we're not ready to let many other people have control over our idea that we recognize is still young and fragile.
2. We're committed to building the best stats portal on the Internet. Doing so requires a determined, fast moving team (Ben and I right now) to make changes on the fly, respond quickly to feedback, and build a truly awesome service. The reason we don't find the existing services adequate is because of what we see as design or usability flaws, technical flaws, or both.
3. This just summarizes points 1 & 2. We envision a unified system. A single go-to place for FRC stats. When we started this, our vision was building a killer API. It still is. Everything you see on TFA (http://thefirstalliance.org/) is utilizing our publicly accessible API. Anyone can build what we've built! Just use our own API. As we move forward, we're going to be expanding our API's and site's abilities and features. You can get a general idea of where we're headed by checking out our roadmap (http://thefirstalliance.org/roadmap.php).
I hope that addresses some of the concerns or maybe even anger we've been hearing out there. We're always looking for new ideas to bring into TFA, so if you have something to tell or show us drop us a line (contact@thefirstalliance.org)! We're super excited to be working and interacting with so many passionate FIRSTers to make the best stats portal out there. Thanks again, hope this clears things up.
Eugene Fang
23-04-2012, 16:59
I'd be cool if we could have seen the same continuity between watchfirstnow.com (since 2011) and madstream.team1323.com (http://madstream.team1323.com/) (since 2012)
On hindsight, that might have been good. MadStream started as just a webcast service for a few California off-season events, but it grew quicker than we thought. Before we knew it, the competition season had started. However since then, we've open sourced our code and are looking into contributing to TBA's codebase to provide a more seamless user experience hopefully sometime in the future.
So a couple of things I should clarify guys.
First, we've been getting some feedback about our stats mode on the site recently. Specifically people have been accusing us of copying FRC Data Miner. There is also evidence that I saw the page and liked it a lot.
Ben never actually saw the site, I just suggested incorporating a layout and design like Data Miner's into this page we were already planning on building. Having said that, we're constantly pushing forward and incorporating new ideas into the site so when we see something good and that fits into our vision of TheFIRSTAlliance.org (http://thefirstalliance.org) we try to incorporate it into the site. We also make plans to improve what is already out there and tailor it to our needs. There's nothing wrong with that guys, competition makes all solutions better.
Now to address why we're not releasing TFA (http://thefirstalliance.org/)as open source or trying to work with other existing services.
1. We're still starting out. We have a vision and a strong following already, but we're not ready to let many other people have control over our idea that we recognize is still young and fragile.
2. We're committed to building the best stats portal on the Internet. Doing so requires a determined, fast moving team (Ben and I right now) to make changes on the fly, respond quickly to feedback, and build a truly awesome service. The reason we don't find the existing services adequate is because of what we see as design or usability flaws, technical flaws, or both.
3. This just summarizes points 1 & 2. We envision a unified system. A single go-to place for FRC stats. When we started this, our vision was building a killer API. It still is. Everything you see on TFA (http://thefirstalliance.org/) is utilizing our publicly accessible API. Anyone can build what we've built! Just use our own API. As we move forward, we're going to be expanding our API's and site's abilities and features. You can get a general idea of where we're headed by checking out our roadmap (http://thefirstalliance.org/roadmap.php).
I hope that addresses some of the concerns or maybe even anger we've been hearing out there. We're always looking for new ideas to bring into TFA, so if you have something to tell or show us drop us a line (contact@thefirstalliance.org)! We're super excited to be working and interacting with so many passionate FIRSTers to make the best stats portal out there. Thanks again, hope this clears things up.While I understand where you're coming from, lately FIRST data has felt a little like this...
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png
While I understand where you're coming from, lately FIRST data has felt a little like this...
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png
Hahaha yeah I definitely understand that feeling. However, we just need to make the best standard and hopefully people will adopt it. So far it seems like that's happening.
artdutra04
23-04-2012, 19:11
I think it show a lot of interest and great work, but with large number of new FRC resource sites showing up, I'm left wishing that teams would have worked together on a single site.
Personally I've always been a fan of TBA, and they've always looked for more people to help out... seems people are choosing to go on their own instead.My thoughts exactly.
While I understand where you're coming from, lately FIRST data has felt a little like this...
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.pngI almost just posted that exact same comic, but scrolled down before hitting Submit.
basicxman
23-04-2012, 19:13
So far it seems like that's happening.
Why does it seem that way?
plnyyanks
23-04-2012, 19:23
While I understand where you're coming from, lately FIRST data has felt a little like this...
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png
My thoughts exactly.
I almost just posted that exact same comic, but scrolled down before hitting Submit.
I too, almost linked to the same comic. xkcd always seems to have something appropriate... I just feel like there are too many websites out there that do similar things, and if we focused our resources as a community, we could build one superior site. This looks like a cool resource and all, and it looks like some quality coding, but I'll stick with good 'ol TBA for the time being.
Why does it seem that way?
So far we've got several people who are constantly writing in to us with their ideas or bugs they've found. Users have started uploading photos and videos as well. Since launch (which is closely approaching the two week mark), we've been getting 5,000 api hits per day.
What we're super excited about also is how many people have emailed or PM'ed us asking us about our API and how we've helped them and guided them as they've built their ideas. It's exciting to think about how we're helping empower so many other people do amazing things with our work.
I too, almost linked to the same comic. xkcd always seems to have something appropriate... I just feel like there are too many websites out there that do similar things, and if we focused our resources as a community, we could build one superior site. This looks like a cool resource and all, and it looks like some quality coding, but I'll stick with good 'ol TBA for the time being.
Maybe a good question to ask is why? Currently the only things we are missing are stats from previous years (which I don't think many people use anyways) and videos (which are a priority right now).
What features would The FIRST Alliance (http://thefirstalliance.org) need for users to switch over?
What other features does the FIRST community want to see? If you're looking for ways in which the community can help build a great site, then help us out here. We're two committed individuals who have so far proven they can respond quickly and release updates in very little time.
Maybe a good question to ask is why? Currently the only things we are missing are stats from previous years (which I don't think many people use anyways)
I disagree, i'd like to look at a teams performance over time. It can show you their consistency and if they are trending up or down as well.
Dave Flowerday
23-04-2012, 20:05
What features would The FIRST Alliance (http://thefirstalliance.org) need for users to switch over?
I'll tell you what TBA has that you don't have yet: a proven record. What are your plans to keep this site going? How is it being paid for? Is it sustainable if it starts getting heavy use? There would be nothing more frustrating to me to develop a cool mobile app using your API and then have it disappear from underneath me because you get sick of paying the server bill or something. Or if you change the API in some way that breaks my app.
we've been getting 5,000 api hits per day
You've quoted that number a few times now. Let me give you an idea what you'll be up against if your service actually grows. The private FRC Spyder API server that we run (which provides similar data, obviously) receives 5,000 hits per minute during some events. We received 8 million hits during the 7 weeks of regionals. We can handle that kind of traffic with a modest server because we tightly control the client and make extensive use of HTTP headers to only send data when it's absolutely needed. Even then, it's a server instance that costs money. We used to run on a free App Engine instance, but we quickly outgrew that (especially after they changed their pricing model last fall).
Basically, what I would want to know is: how do you plan to survive? If you had all the traffic of FRC Spyder plus a few dozen other custom apps, and you have high school kids hitting your server who aren't respectful of the amount of traffic they're generating, how do you plan to handle it?
Although we don't use TBA for FRC Spyder, they've been around long enough to prove to me that they can deliver on their promises. Right now your service looks like a hobby project, and I would constantly have to wonder when you'd get bored of it and shut it down.
I disagree, i'd like to look at a teams performance over time. It can show you their consistency and if they are trending up or down as well.I too use previous years' data for many purposes. It's quite handy to have it all in one place.
As to other reasons I'm not switching over, one (not necessarily the only/biggest) is simply integration and habit. You see that little TBA-> beside your team number in your user title? Convenient, no? I probably use frclinks.com/tba/nnnn almost as much as I use ChiefDelphi. It's amazingly convenient. (And maybe I'm just an old fogey at heart.)
All that said, I'm loving the OPR/DPR history charts. Is there anyway the events could be displayed in chronological/reverse chronological order? For instance, 357's is (reading down): DC Regional (week 5), MAR Championship (week 7), Hatboro-Horsham District (week 1), Chestnut Hill District (week 2). I guess you're displaying them in FIRST's "Regional Event" page order now? Maybe it's just me; that order really bugs me. :o
Right now your service looks like a hobby project, and I would constantly have to wonder when you'd get bored of it and shut it down.
Thanks for the great feedback/insight, Dave. When you say TFA looks like a hobby project, what do you mean by that? Is it the fact that we're just the new guys on the block? Or is it something in the site's design or functionality that makes you say that?
connor.worley
23-04-2012, 21:22
While I understand where you're coming from, lately FIRST data has felt a little like this...
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png
I see where you're coming from, but teams are developing products, not standards. Competition is good and improves overall quality.
artdutra04
23-04-2012, 21:38
I see where you're coming from, but teams are developing products, not standards. Competition is good and improves overall quality.The only reason competition is good in the sake of capitalism is because people are motivated to make money. When people want to make more money, in theory they will deliver a better product/service to gain more market share.
When people are working on open-source or community projects for the benefit of society/larger group of people, it's better that they work together on a unified approach, otherwise a large part of their resources and man-hours of work are simply spent on duplicating what already exists.
The only reason competition is good in the sake of capitalism is because people are motivated to make money. When people want to make more money, in theory they will deliver a better product/service to gain more market share.
When people are working on open-source or community projects for the benefit of society/larger group of people, it's better that they work together on a unified approach, otherwise a large part of their resources and man-hours of work are simply spent on duplicating what already exists.
The economics of this are a bit sketchy. Check your premises as to why people work and compete. Also, TFA isn't really an open source project or project for the community in the sense that you're thinking it is.
Chris is me
23-04-2012, 21:45
Also, TFA isn't really an open source project or project for the community in the sense that you're thinking it is.
That's part of his point... he's arguing against the merit of having multiple competing standards, when there is already one that is both well established and open source.
Currently the only things we are missing are stats from previous years (which I don't think many people use anyways) and videos (which are a priority right now).
Frankly, those are pretty much the only things that get me to TBA these days. Even if you replicate their database, TBA remains the easier option for me. For current year results, I go to Spyder. Advanced stats, I do myself. What's left? I don't know.
That's what would bring me to TFA: original ideas, give me something useful that I've never seen before. Or, at the very least, collaborate instead of bragging about your great success. People other than you two working on this project isn't going to dilute the mission; it will only make it stronger. You're not exactly being welcoming to the FIRST community here.
People other than you two working on this project isn't going to dilute the mission; it will only make it stronger. You're not exactly being welcoming to the FIRST community here.
That's really not a fair statement to make. If you go back to my previous posts where I outline exactly why we're not collaborating or making this open source you'll hopefully see why.
If anything we're being extremely welcoming to the FIRST community by providing rapid changes, support, and fixes as soon as we can. It's because of our small size and commitment that we can do this. Right now that's something we're just not willing to give up.
That's part of his point... he's arguing against the merit of having multiple competing standards, when there is already one that is both well established and open source.
Competition is always good. Why settle for an inferior standard? Also, don't confuse standard and product.
plnyyanks
23-04-2012, 22:59
Maybe a good question to ask is why? Currently the only things we are missing are stats from previous years (which I don't think many people use anyways) and videos (which are a priority right now).
The quotes below basically sum up my answer to your question. I use TBA's historical data all the time - whether its to look at a team's recent trends, to find a particularly awesome match from many years ago, or to just gather ideas and learn from teams of the past. I'm sure that, in the last two years, the majority of teams looked back to match video from 2007 and 2006 respectively to gain insight on the current year's game. That's the real beauty of TBA's huge archives.
Take a step back and look at the track record/competing standard argument from a different point of view. TBA has been around for a really, really long time (I don't even know when it was founded, but I do know that it's long before my time). They're established, I know I can rely on them and their server for anything I have my website throw at them. Now, TFA enters the scene. To me, it just seems a little bit redundant - why spend so much of your time writing a similar website to an already established one? Because face it, there are a ton of similarities between TFA and TBA. What if you, instead of spending lots of time writing portions of code that do exactly the same thing, you spent that time improving the existing codebase? Your site has a lot of cool features, and some ideas that I like, but I feel there's too much overlap between the two.
But hey, feel free to build an awesome site and convert me. You'll just have to establish your own niche.
I disagree, i'd like to look at a teams performance over time. It can show you their consistency and if they are trending up or down as well.
I'll tell you what TBA has that you don't have yet: a proven record.
That's part of his point... he's arguing against the merit of having multiple competing standards, when there is already one that is both well established and open source.
Andrew Lawrence
24-04-2012, 00:58
I haven't been able to keep up with this thread, and don't have the time to read all 100 posts, so I apologize if this has already been asked.
Will The FIRST Alliance have records for offseasons as well?
mobilegamer999
24-04-2012, 09:22
I haven't been able to keep up with this thread, and don't have the time to read all 100 posts, so I apologize if this has already been asked.
Will The FIRST Alliance have records for offseasons as well?
Its a possibility, me and grant will talk about this one tonight.
mobilegamer999
24-04-2012, 10:04
Wow, this thread exploded a bit overnight. I'm going to lay out certain responses as I see them from my point of view.
Why did we make our own site?
There were quite a few reasons why we chose to make our own website. One reason was for the enjoyment/practice it takes to plan, design, create, debug, launch a website. It was something I had never done before and I felt like it would be a good project, and post-launch, if it got a good rep and people were using it, I would have no issue continuing to pay for the hosting. The second reason is that we wanted a site where anybody and everybody in the FIRST community could submit an idea and have it seriously considered as a new feature to the website, because, in my personal opinion, TBA is a website that is there and does not change unless the developers want to add/remove something, regardless of if that is their model or not, that is the feeling that TBA gave me personally.
Why not just build upon TBA's codebase?
The main reason is that its not THAT simple, TBA would not let some random outsider start modifying their code and pushing it live to the website. Even if they let us help them with their code, every time more people are added to a project, the slower changes become and the less often changes can be made.
Open Source?
I can almost guarantee that we will not open-source the website. Our biggest reason for this is that we made the API public and extremely easy to get started with so that there was no need to open-source the website. While we wont be open-sourcing the website, we WILL be providing very simple/easy to read code example for how to do just about every feature on the website in many common languages (C#, Java, Ruby, PHP, etc.)
How do we know the site is going to stay up?
I am going to say that as long as people are still visiting/using the site, I will continue to keep it up. You do not need to trust me on that, but that is what I'm sticking to.
How do we know that the API is going to stay compatible?
This is a very simple one. All versions of the API will be kept and stay accessible. The second version of the API will be requested at api/api.v2.json.php and so on and so forth. This is the easiest/cleanest way to implement a multi-version API.
Why use TFA over TBA?
There is no reason that you have to, its simply a matter of preference.
Dave Flowerday
24-04-2012, 10:37
When you say TFA looks like a hobby project, what do you mean by that?
I mean that it looks like you're paying for it out of your own pocket, or you're running it on a free service somewhere which likely won't handle the load when it becomes non-trivial. Anything that costs money to sustain and doesn't have a planned way to at least recoup operating costs qualifies as a hobby to me. End-user sites, like TBA and CD, can use advertising if needed to help defray the cost of hosting. You can't do that when your primary product is an API, unless you charge people to access the API which you have not indicated that you are doing. So, it comes back to my question of how are you going to pay for it when it gets busy enough that you need to run multiple servers and load balancers and such. Are you prepared to foot a $100+ bill per month yourself? If so, for how long?
The economics of this are a bit sketchy.
if it got a good rep and people were using it, I would have no issue continuing to pay for the hosting.
I am going to say that as long as people are still visiting/using the site, I will continue to keep it up.
These quotes should be major red flags for anyone considering developing against your API. You're admitting that it costs money to run, you're paying for it yourself, and basically you'll keep running it "if it gets a good rep and people are using it". That's not much of a guarantee to someone considering investing 100s of hours in developing an app against this API.
Open Source?
I can almost guarantee that we will not open-source the website. Our biggest reason for this is that we made the API public and extremely easy to get started with so that there was no need to open-source the website. While we wont be open-sourcing the website, we WILL be providing very simple/easy to read code example for how to do just about every feature on the website in many common languages (C#, Java, Ruby, PHP, etc.)
I wouldn't underestimate the ability to source-dive. You can give me all the examples in the world and I bet it won't cover every use case. If I encounter a weird problem I'd love to peek at the source and find out what I'm doing wrong or give you feedback or open an issue ticket or submit a patch myself.
I can understand if you want this to be "your thing" and nobody else's, but then I'd just say it that way. "We documented our API" doesn't really seem like a reason for "It will not be open-source" to me. Maybe I'm just weird.
Dave, you misquote me. I was not saying the economics of our service (ie how we're paying for it) are sketchy or that we don't have a plan, rather responding to another member's post.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1162137&postcount=96
As far as sustainability goes, we're going to implement ads soon to help recoup our costs. Secondly, we're not using a free service for hosting or our domain name or anything like that. We're paying for it just like anyone else. If you mean our design looks cheap that's one thing, but I don't know how by just looking at the site it gives you a feeling of shoddy work.
Maybe for an app like the Spyder, you'll never give up control and use a third party API. It probably just doesn't make sense for you guys and that's fine. However, we think there are a lot of other developers out there who have great ideas or tools they'd like to build and could really use our API. We're here to help those guys out.
Andrew Schreiber
24-04-2012, 11:00
As far as sustainability goes, we're going to implement ads soon to help recoup our costs. Secondly, we're not using a free service for hosting or our domain name or anything like that. We're paying for it just like anyone else. If you mean our design looks cheap that's one thing, but I don't know how by just looking at the site it gives you a feeling of shoddy work.
Your product is your API, how do you put ads in an API?
Your product is your API, how do you put ads in an API?
Ads on the site. Sorry for the confusion.
Why not just build upon TBA's codebase?
The main reason is that its not THAT simple, TBA would not let some random outsider start modifying their code and pushing it live to the website. Even if they let us help them with their code, every time more people are added to a project, the slower changes become and the less often changes can be made.
Actually you can just fork the github repository (https://github.com/gregmarra/the-blue-alliance) and join the mailing list if you want to start helping TBA.
Dave Flowerday
24-04-2012, 11:11
We're paying for it just like anyone else. If you mean our design looks cheap that's one thing, but I don't know how by just looking at the site it gives you a feeling of shoddy work.
I never said anything like that. I have no idea of the quality of your work, and have no reason to assume that it's not wonderful. My simple point is that when providing an API to other apps, the other apps become dependent on you. Your decisions affect them. If you're running an end-user website and decide to take it away sometime, that sucks for the community but it doesn't really invalidate anyone else's work. If you take away an API that others are accessing with apps that they spent considerable effort to create, then you're harming them.
As far as sustainability goes, we're going to implement ads soon to help recoup our costs.
You've been pitching this as primarily an API service. How are you going to run ads on an API service? Or, from a different perspective: you keep pointing out how anyone could duplicate your website using your API. If you put ads on your website, wouldn't someone else just duplicate the site without the ads, causing people to use that instead (since people obviously prefer sites without ads)? Or worse, they put their own ads on it and pocket the profits while you're footing the bill for the grunt work of collecting the data.
I'm not trying to offend anyone, I'm simply trying to point out some of the real-world issues that crop up after the enjoyment of creating it wears off (which it will, I promise). Things that start out as a fun side project can turn into an annoyance faster than you'd think. Pretty soon you'll find that instead of getting praise for an awesome tool, you'll just get complaints about "why doesn't it have feature x" and "when are you going to support y" or "it's down, how soon is it going to be back up?". Instead of being grateful, there's a lot of people out there who just expect you to provide more and more things for them, for free.
Joseph Bisch
24-04-2012, 11:56
Why not just build upon TBA's codebase?
The main reason is that its not THAT simple, TBA would not let some random outsider start modifying their code and pushing it live to the website. Even if they let us help them with their code, every time more people are added to a project, the slower changes become and the less often changes can be made.
Open Source?
I can almost guarantee that we will not open-source the website. Our biggest reason for this is that we made the API public and extremely easy to get started with so that there was no need to open-source the website. While we wont be open-sourcing the website, we WILL be providing very simple/easy to read code example for how to do just about every feature on the website in many common languages (C#, Java, Ruby, PHP, etc.)
Of course TBA does not let random outsiders push code live to the website. I have contributed code to TBA, but ultimately Greg was the one that pushed it to the server. Would you let me push code live to TFA?
Open source is not equal to no security.
Your reason for not making TFA open source is not a real reason. As others have pointed out making an API and open sourcing a software project are two mutually exclusive actions. If you simply made the decision not to open source TFA then that is your reason, not that TFA has an API.
With respect to the accusations of this being a "hobby project", I think people need to give you guys a chance. Where would TBA be today if people wrote it off as a "hobby project"? I don't mean to be mean to you guys with my above comments, but just as you guys want to make sure people don't have misconceptions about TFA, I want to make sure they don't have misconceptions about TBA.
Dave Flowerday
24-04-2012, 12:14
With respect to the accusations of this being a "hobby project", I think people need to give you guys a chance.
I meant no disrespect by saying it looked like a hobby project. I have lots of hobbies, FRC used to be one of them. FRC Spyder started as and arguably still is a hobby project (though see my earlier post about how things don't always stay fun). The key factor here, though, is that if I get bored of any of my hobbies and stop supporting them it doesn't really harm anyone else's work. The creators of the First Alliance website are pitching it as a service around which other people should build their own sites or apps (which are also likely hobbies). Now you have a tricky situation where if the TFA folks get tired of the hobby and neglect it or shut it down, they're hurting other people's work too. That's my concern here.
I'll try to stay out of this thread from here on out. Best of luck to TFA, and any other services built around it.
Andrew Schreiber
24-04-2012, 12:15
Ads on the site. Sorry for the confusion.
No confusion. You have stated numerous times that the API is your differentiator, this means that it will probably be your biggest cost. People like myself will be consuming your API and never hitting your website so I will never be generating revenue for you but I WILL be generating costs for you. Do you think, based on your current traffic, you will be seeing enough web traffic to cover your costs? I don't want to know numbers I just want to make sure you've considered this possibility.
TL;DR - How do you make sure that people like I are not just cost generators for you without creating API limits and forcing me to pay for more use?
mobilegamer999
24-04-2012, 12:39
No confusion. You have stated numerous times that the API is your differentiator, this means that it will probably be your biggest cost. People like myself will be consuming your API and never hitting your website so I will never be generating revenue for you but I WILL be generating costs for you. Do you think, based on your current traffic, you will be seeing enough web traffic to cover your costs? I don't want to know numbers I just want to make sure you've considered this possibility.
TL;DR - How do you make sure that people like I are not just cost generators for you without creating API limits and forcing me to pay for more use?
I do feel that we get enough web traffic that ads would be a sufficient revenue source to support the website.
I am trying to use TFA or TBA to follow the championship, and it would be really nice if either site would put the teams' championship schedules on the team pages before the event ends. Right now the team pages only have tabs for their district and regional events.
mobilegamer999
26-04-2012, 16:29
I am trying to use TFA or TBA to follow the championship, and it would be really nice if either site would put the teams' championship schedules on the team pages before the event ends. Right now the team pages only have tabs for their district and regional events.
There you go, got that fixed for you on TFA.
There you go, got that fixed for you on TFA.
That was fast!
flippy147852
27-04-2012, 07:31
Can you space out the bars for the divisional Event Stats graphs? they are really smushed together and the numbers are hard to read
Can you space out the bars for the divisional Event Stats graphs? they are really smushed together and the numbers are hard to read
Hey Flippy,
We're aware of that usability issue and we'll try to do something about it when we release the next set of fixes for the site. Really appreciate the screenshot btw. It always makes our jobs easier. Have a good competition!
- Grant
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