Einstein 2012

[Andrew Lawrence]

Wow. we have 4 teams on Einstein now.

Who do YOU want to win?

EDIT: I can't match an alliance to their division. Help?

[stundt1]

Bombsquad/180/25 are who im rooting for.

In reality I think Canada will win.

[LondonBoy29]

I think canada is going to take home double gold this year, einstein and simbotics winning cca.

[delsaner]

Let's check out the alliances!

Archimedes: 1114, 2056, 4334
Curie: 233, 987, 207
Galileo: 16, 25, 180
Newton: 118, 2194, 548


I am personally rooting for 16, 25, 180.

[TheMadCADer]

1114/2056/4334, otherwise known as The Eh Team, look like they can take it.

[Anupam Goli]

I'm rooting for Newton. They've shown their strength! Even the Canada alliance will need to watch out for them.

[CarterM]

118, 2194, 548

Fondy Fire all the way!

[Lil' Lavery]

233/987/207 has put up 116, 110, and 100 points without a triple balance. 987 is absolutely on fire in the offensive zone. It's going to take some incredible play to slow them down.

[Andrew141WOBOT]

The Einstein Webcast has not started yet, correct? I'm still seeing the sponsor videos.

[Ether]

Quick Reference:


Curie

http://frclinks.frclinks.com/t/233
http://frclinks.frclinks.com/t/987
http://frclinks.frclinks.com/t/207


Galileo

http://frclinks.frclinks.com/t/180
http://frclinks.frclinks.com/t/25
http://frclinks.frclinks.com/t/16


Archimedes

http://frclinks.frclinks.com/t/2056
http://frclinks.frclinks.com/t/1114
http://frclinks.frclinks.com/t/4334


Newton

http://frclinks.frclinks.com/t/548
http://frclinks.frclinks.com/t/118
http://frclinks.frclinks.com/t/2194

[DominickC]

Go 16, 25, 180 !

When does Einstein start?

[Sean Raia]

Id LOVE to see Arch take home the gold, but i too hope bomb squad's alliance can make it to finals.
Also, 1114 has been plagued by issues on and off this season... I truly hope they play at their full potential.

Imagine being a first year rookie team and winning CHAMPIONSHIPS.

[ChristopherSD]

Rootin' for the Michigan team.

[Tetraman]

If 2056 is going to get it's Championship win, this is the time. However they have to get though a really, really good Curie alliance. That's going to be close, but I'll take the solid triple balance of Archimedies.

Newton v. Galileo will be a fun match-up. Not sure who would win that one though, it's very close.

[George Nishimura]

Who would've thought that the 2056/1114 alliance would be the best at triple balancing going in to Einstein?

I didn't think they could do it, let alone pull it off quickly and consistently.

I'm interested in seeing 16's defence against Newton before predicting who's going to win. I would like Team Canada to win though.

[sgreco]

The Einstein Webcast has not started yet, correct? I'm still seeing the sponsor videos.

It should start at 5.

[mjustice66]

Go Pink Metal Rollers!!!

[Sean Raia]

Lost audio on feed. :-(

[DominickC]

And the audio returns!

[mjustice66]

Will 1114/2056 keep there streak of winning together? They have won at every event they have been aligned together at right?

[sgreco]

Will 1114/2056 keep there streak of winning together? They have won at every event they have been aligned together at right?

They played together at champs in 09 and lost in the divisional semis.

[TheMadCADer]

Who would've thought that the 2056/1114 alliance would be the best at triple balancing going in to Einstein?

I didn't think they could do it, let alone pull it off quickly and consistently

I thought so. Check my post in the Archimedes thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1162603#post1162603).

[Cyberphil]

Let the fun begin.

Edit: I just realized 177's Einstein spree is over. :-/

[Ether]

Some quick stats for the winning alliances.

(Based on division qual match data)

[Lil' Lavery]

Let the fun begin.

Edit: I just realized 177's Einstein spree is over. :-/

But the UTC streak is alive. A member of the "UTC block" has been on Einstein every single year the division format has existed.

2001: 177
2002: 180
2003: 175
2004: 175
2005: 175
2006: 177
2007: 177
2008: 177
2009: 177
2010: 177
2011: 177
2012: 180

In reality, it's a streak of teams 175, 177, and 180 more than the whole UTC block, but whatever.


e; I'm pretty sure Dean was talking through the entire 3rd period of the Washington-New York game.

[Tetraman]

Are they using Super Smash Brothers jingles for their intros for each of the speakers?

[stundt1]

did they say the kinect is required next year?

I missed it and apparently they said it.

[Mk.32]

I hope not...
And 118 looked dead for match 1?

[Sean Raia]

I hope not...
And 118 looked dead for match 1?

Unfourtunately that wouldnt surprise me.

[George Nishimura]

Are they using Super Smash Brothers jingles for their intros for each of the speakers?

I want to know the answer to this too. Sounds eerily similar.

[CarterM]

I hope not...
And 118 looked dead for match 1?

Yes... :( I don't know details.

Is it just me, or is middle red team's robot down also in the second match?

[Mk.32]

4334 looked dead also...
This is disappointing dead robots on Einstein..

[bduddy]

Red 2, twice in a row...

All three red robots had no connection at the end.

[Andrew Lawrence]

CURY FURY *CLAP CLAP CLAPCLAPCLAP*!

[George Nishimura]

Another dead robot, 4334, might be the same Alliance station.

And 1114 might've died midway through, not sure what happened in the last 30 or so seconds.

[BHS_STopping]

Exact same station in both matches. Could be coincidence but we'll see in match 3.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Definitely Red 2 in both matches. Possibly coincidence, of course. But if Red 2 is down in any of the next matches, there will be no end to the howls of protest and outrage, and rightfully so.

[Steven Sigley]

Think there will be calls to move away from wifi back to radios on the robots?

[bduddy]

Think there will be calls to move away from wifi back to radios on the robots?If I was on a better phone, I'd start. It's been ridiculous all year.

[Sean Raia]

Its important to consider the fact that 118 and 1114 have had their fair share of com/electrical issues this year.

If there is a bug in their system, it only makes sense that it would rear its ugly head during Einstein.

[Kevin Sevcik]

All I know is Lucien Junkin from 118 was pushing hard for getting 364 into Lone Star and trying to troubleshoot their vexing communications issues. If the Newton alliance goes down because of mysterious comms issues that FIRST won't take the blame for.... Well lets just say Lucien will probably briefly be visible from space.

[Botwoon]

I want to know the answer to this too. Sounds eerily similar.

They are, most of them are from Starfox to be exact.

[Sean Raia]

Matches are being redone.

[Mk.32]

Matches are being redone.

I like this.

EDIT: 118 still looks dead........

[Kevin Sevcik]

OMFG! Sanity prevails! It's unprecedented!

[BHS_STopping]

Very GP for them to replay those matches. :)

Edit: Oh no 118...

[Lil' Lavery]

118 dead again anyway...

[BX MARK]

They're still dead!

[Kevin Sevcik]

118 Still dead? This seems somewhat ridiculous.

[Sean Raia]

We'l have to see how match 2 plays out. If its the same exact situation again FIRST will lose quite a bit of credibility.

[George Nishimura]

Clearly turning it off and on again didn't fix the problem.

[stundt1]

Replay again?

[BHOP]

IFI! IFI! IFI! This is stupid they are not checking any field systems only checking teams robots.

[Kevin Sevcik]

I'm kinda disappointed in FIRST's troubleshooting skills. The changed nothing and got the same result, and we now know absolutely nothing new from running that match.

[bduddy]

Now is the real test...

If they can't fix the problem, can we move to another field?

[Sean Raia]

I'm kinda disappointed in FIRST's troubleshooting skills. The changed nothing and got the same result, and we now know absolutely nothing new from running that match.

You know what happens when you make assumptions...

Unless you are truly down there on Einstein, then your comment may very well be legitimate.

[RyanN]

I'm kinda disappointed in FIRST's troubleshooting skills. The changed nothing and got the same result, and we now know absolutely nothing new from running that match.

Where has this field been as far as regionals go?

Isn't this supposed to be a new, unused field?

[Boe]

Now is the real test...

If they can't fix the problem, can we move to another field?

the other fields have been torn down already

[Lil' Lavery]

Where has this field been as far as regionals go?

Isn't this supposed to be a new, unused field?

Einstein is typically the "spare field" through the regional season, and Einstein is the first event it is used.

[Sean Raia]

EDIT: wait what? did the issue just jump from 2056 to 1114?

[Vince lau]

Who won semi 2-1?

[BHS_STopping]

Did they switch the cables? 2056 out but in red station 3 (or 1).

[Mk.32]

Seems everyone is running this match :D
So close in scores.

[Arefin Bari]

At this rate... Blue alliance will win Einstein...

... really?

[stundt1]

simbotics died at end of match and op died at beginning.....

This is completely unfair.

[Sean Raia]

Looks like there is a bug in the system... and its on Reds alliance station

[LeelandS]

It looked like 2056 went out in the last match. Then they came back, and 1114 went out. This is odd.

I guess the real test is going to be when Curie faces Galileo. If the red alliance experiences communication difficulties, I'd find it exceptionally hard to write off as a specific robot issue.

[Kevin Sevcik]

And 4334 worked through auton and is down again. And 1114 down towards the end of the match again. Pretty much exactly what happened in the first match. It'll be interesting if things are different when robots get shuffled to different stations.

As an alternative, there was that whole super-awesome industrial radio solution they had for horrible wifi environments. I wonder if they could implement that quickly?

[RyanN]

And 4334 worked through auton and is down again. And 1114 down towards the end of the match again. Pretty much exactly what happened in the first match. It'll be interesting if things are different when robots get shuffled to different stations.

As an alternative, there was that whole super-awesome industrial radio solution they had for horrible wifi environments. I wonder if they could implement that quickly?

They're supposed to be able to.

For regionals, it was supposed to be on hand, and the system would work more manual than the current system. Each team should be handed a pre-configured DIR-825 and the system can be configured. The only problem with Operation Bondé is that it was designed for Regionals, and the decision should have been decided on Wednesday or Thursday, not today. A more beneficial approach would be to ask the audience to turn off their electronics (cell phones, mp3 players (with WiFi integration), tablets, and PCs).

[BHOP]

If I was red I would boycott playing unless I was on the blue side. And call a timeout so the field crew can fix the field

[Gray Adams]

I guess championship goes to blue...

[plnyyanks]

I wonder what the 'known issue' was that they found with the field. Since they're not going to tell us for a little while, this is my theory:

if you look at the FMS Twitter Feed (https://twitter.com/#!/frcfms), you'll see one tweet (https://twitter.com/#!/frcfms/status/196360396330893313) from the first playing of the first semifinal match. Notice that the hashtag denoting the field is "FRCTEST", not "FRCCMP", like it should be (https://twitter.com/#!/frcfms/status/196371125616390144) (second linked tweet is the replay of that match). To me, this looks like the FMS was identifying itself as "test".

Not being extremely familiar with how the FMS works, I'm not sure how this would affect match operation, but this could possibly be what the field technicians found...

[stundt1]

they should do rock paper scissor to decide who gets to be blue alliance for the finals

Lol nice someone said that in mad stream chat

[Robby Unruh]

Wait, did they call timeout during award ceremonies? Can they do that? (ie. they would have had the time anyway because of them...)

[stundt1]

118 dead

[Kevin Sevcik]

And 118 still down. Guess we won't know if it's a Red station issue until the finals. In other news, I'm finding the announcer incredibly insulting talking about the blue alliance putting on a scoring demonstration.....

[lorem3k]

These constant comm issues are just embarrassing.

[Allison K]

Weather Underground (https://twitter.com/#!/wunderground) says tornado warning for the St. Louis area... Anybody know if the dome area is in its path?

[Robby Unruh]

And 118 still down. Guess we won't know if it's a Red station issue until the finals. In other news, I'm finding the announcer incredibly insulting talking about the blue alliance putting on a scoring demonstration.....

I find this whole thing a bit screwy.

Although 16/25/180 are awesome bots, I can't help but feel 118 could have put on a great show. My sympathy to them for the terrible FMS issues they've experienced this season.

[Sean Raia]

Weather Underground (https://twitter.com/#!/wunderground) says tornado warning for the St. Louis area... Anybody know if the dome area is in its path?

This just seems to be the perfect storm. (pun intended)

All we need now is Curie winning.

[Mk.32]

This just seems to be the perfect storm. (pun intended)

All we need now is Curie winning.

If they are on blue they will :rolleyes:

[Timz3082]

Dear blue alliance, please refuse to play finals. All teams know it is unfair...

[bduddy]

I wonder what the 'known issue' was that they found with the field. Since they're not going to tell us for a little while, this is my theory:

if you look at the FMS Twitter Feed (https://twitter.com/#!/frcfms), you'll see one tweet (https://twitter.com/#!/frcfms/status/196360396330893313) from the first playing of the first semifinal match. Notice that the hashtag denoting the field is "FRCTEST", not "FRCCMP", like it should be (https://twitter.com/#!/frcfms/status/196371125616390144) (second linked tweet is the replay of that match). To me, this looks like the FMS was identifying itself as "test".

Not being extremely familiar with how the FMS works, I'm not sure how this would affect match operation, but this could possibly be what the field technicians found...The on-screen scoreboard also showed "TEST". Fixing that doesn't seem to have changed anything, though.

2056 just got the Quality award, good for them. But the problem is obviously on their side, right FIRST?

[Sean Raia]

Dear blue alliance, please refuse to play finals. All teams know it is unfair...

That sounds incredibly GP. No, wait... it doesn't.

[Kevin Sevcik]

FYI, FMS webpages say Galileo is Red for finals.

[Timz3082]

That sounds incredibly GP. No, wait... it doesn't.

Sorry, I may have been a bit harsh with that, but now with 1114 and 2056 dying like never before, I am just a bit confused...

[Robby Unruh]

FYI, FMS webpages say Galileo is Red for finals.

Congrats 233/987/207, our 2012 World Champions!

btw, 2056 lost comms again.

[Mk.32]

2056 died about 80secs, 1114 died at about 60 secs but came back 10-15 secs later.

Disappointing.

[stundt1]

this is sad. really they died.

[CarterM]

This is almost too disappointing to watch. :(

[jman22890]

Bad connection cost 1114, 2056, and 4334 a birth into the world championshipn finals, Can't believe it.

[Slix]

If they admit it is a field problem, we could just have no winner..

(If it is a field problem.)

[Sean Raia]

The stress on Woodie is very evident.

[NickTosta]

I find this whole thing a bit screwy.

Although 16/25/180 are awesome bots, I can't help but feel 118 could have put on a great show. My sympathy to them for the terrible FMS issues they've experienced this season.

Well, 118 already put on a great show; they were absolutely incredible to watch in the Newton elims. The fact that they go from running perfectly on newton (not to mention 1114 and 2056 also running perfectly on archimedes) to not moving 3 matches in a row just makes this whole thing that much worse.

Such a shame, was looking forward to some awesome matches. I wonder how FIRST will respond to this now that the problem has moved from regionals and districts to their biggest stage.

[George Nishimura]

Let's see which one is more powerful: the Curie curse or the "Red Comms" curse.

[BX MARK]

The stress on Woodie is very evident.
Same with Dean.

[Kevin Sevcik]

I'm wondering if there are saved logs available from newton and archimedes that could be compared to logs from einstein.....

[Gray Adams]

This is incredibly disappointing. It doesn't matter who wears blue, nobody wins.

[plnyyanks]

I'm wondering if there are saved logs available from newton and archimedes that could be compared to logs from einstein.....
Can any of the Newton/Archimedes finalists and post the logs from their Driver Stations after today? Those could prove to be very useful. I'm not sure what kind of logging capabilities the FMS has, so don't know what to do there....

[Squeakypig]

With all of these comm issues, the only way I can see Galileo winning is if this tornado sweeps through and picks up the blue alliance.

[Chris86]

While the comms situation is very annoying and frustrating, please be considerate when judging possible outcomes. All of the divisional winners are great competitors and any of them could have won.

[Robby Unruh]

All red bots are working! Hoo-rah!

edit: but it looked like Pink died for about 20 seconds... did the bug swap stations or what?

[Marc S.]

To add to the drama a tornado warning has been issued and at least in th nosebleeder section, we are not allowed to leave the arena.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Curie curse wins. Pink is stationary for no discernable reason.

[Mk.32]

233 just died.. [don't know about any others] so isn't just a red problem but came back. What the hell is wrong with this field........

[lorem3k]

Comm issues hit blue now... Curie Curse strikes again. I'm appalled at this.

[Sean Raia]

Curie curse trumps all. It literally changed the side of the comm issues to blue

[ErikEdhlund]

It is really hard to watch all of these matches. It is hard to even consider it a fair competition, and what is worse, the field issues or the Curie curse?

[Kevin Sevcik]

So to summarize, all we know is that there were 4 robots that seemed to work fine on division fields, and failed to work on Einstein for some reason. But all FIRST knows is that there's 4 robots that consistently didn't work on Einstein, so it must be a problem with the robots.

[George Nishimura]

I'm not sure what was happening on the red side for about 30 seconds, because the score didn't change. Not sure if that was lag, but I didn't see Spam for a while. Unfortunately, the video feed was focused on Blue so I'm not sure if that was just coincidence or not.

[GoSparx]

Man, people hit FIRST hard. First is more thw just winning and robots right?

[slijin]

Curie curse wins. Pink is stationary for no discernable reason.

Both 207 and 987 cut out for a few seconds during F1 as well.

This is ridiculous.

[BHS_STopping]

Is it possible that all of the interactions between WiFi enabled devices (smartphones) are creating too much stress on the router? Thousands of devices within range could cause disruptions. I also noticed teams drop out like 1717 during eliminations when there were many people around watching the matches.

I'd like to see what would happen if everyone turned off their devices in the stands. Make an announcement?

[HD]

Replay Einstein at IRI?

[NickTosta]

233 just died.. [don't know about any others] so isn't just a red problem but came back. What the hell is wrong with this field........

Well, it's not just einstein. I saw something similar happen at the CT regional, and im sure thats not the only one.

Also, my programmer just pointed out that the terrible weather makes an excellent metaphor for the issues on einstein.

[JosephC]

Can any of the Newton/Archimedes finalists and post the logs from their Driver Stations after today? Those could prove to be very useful. I'm not sure what kind of logging capabilities the FMS has, so don't know what to do there....
I'll have them up on a few hours

[Robby Unruh]

Replay Einstein at IRI?

I'd watch the heck out of this.

[plnyyanks]

Can any of the Newton/Archimedes finalists and post the logs from their Driver Stations after today? Those could prove to be very useful. I'm not sure what kind of logging capabilities the FMS has, so don't know what to do there....

And I'd also like to see longs from any team that dropped communications on Einstein today. It would be interesting to compare how they logs looked between the division matches and Einstein ones.

[miriad]

As a volunteer that works with FMS regularly- it logs everything. Absolutely everything. Any scoring, robot/ds communications (packet logging, I think), and any problems

[George Nishimura]

Didn't 118 have a similar problem at CT?

[miriad]

118 did run flawlessly on Newton though, not even the least connection problem.

[NickTosta]

Didn't 118 have a similar problem at CT?

Yeah. Never dropped communication once the whole competition once the whole time. In the semifinals they didnt move.

118 did run flawlessly on Newton though, not even the least connection problem.

Yup. Just like CT. Strange, huh?

Oh, and didnt they work perfectly at lone star and the alamo?

[Sean Raia]

The curse persists. Hey, at least it was a clean match.

[JoshSmith]

Replay Einstein at IRI?

Definitely. No crazy field issues to ruin the competition. I would consider CNC'ing some awards just for this.

I'll have them up on a few hours

These will be interesting to read. Not sure what logging capabilities have with regards to the field management system. I would like to see the field's logs. I wonder if the cameras and QoS subsystem could have a hand in this huge failure.

[lorem3k]

At least there were no comm issues in the last match...

Congratulations 16, 25, and 180!

[Lil' Lavery]

Not a single triple balance on Einstein because half of the robots that would have done were sitting dead. What a joke.

[Kevin Sevcik]

I wasn't watching every match at LSR, but I didn't hear anything from 118 about comms issues there. Also, did anyone else's webcast die? and right before chairman's!

EDIT: That Curie curse is powerful ju-ju if it took down the entire webcast with it in the loss.

[Racer26]

Chairmans was already awarded to 1114 at the start of Einstein

[Christopher149]

Lost the feed on the word 'just'.

[George Nishimura]

Well, I think that last match showed that the better alliance won the Finals. There were comms problems still. Sigh.

Interesting though that, if I'm not mistaken, not a single triple on Einstein. Mainly due to comms, but even in that last match the blue alliance didn't try it.

I'm not sure how they managed to get 16 as their third pick, but congratulations to 180, 25, 16 for becoming World Champions!

Commiserations to 987/233/207 for being finalists, and 2056/1114/4334 and 118/548/2194 for reaching Einstein!

It wasn't exactly free of problems, and it wasn't the spectacle we all were expecting and hoped for, but the Championship Event itself was pretty amazing to watch. I'm glad I sacrificed my revision to watch it.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Chairmans was already awarded to 1114 at the start of EinsteinK. So I wasn't watching then. Nevertheless, the webcast is down when there's still awards to be awarded.

[AmoryG]

Congrats to the champs, you deserved it as much as everyone else did who made it to einstein. But honestly, it's a little sad that I payed more attention to the comments on the webcast than the actual matches themselves. *sigh*

[Joe G.]

987 was dead for part of the last final match

[BrendanB]

K. So I wasn't watching then. Nevertheless, the webcast is down when there's still awards to be awarded.

Was it the NASA channel? Reason being that it stopped at 7pm probably because it was scheduled to end before 7 so nasa reserved a slot until then.

[plnyyanks]

Also, my programmer just pointed out that the terrible weather makes an excellent metaphor for the issues on einstein.
I can't see electrical storms being all that good for wifi networks.... Have there been any incidents in the past where the field was downed by weather?

As a volunteer that works with FMS regularly- it logs everything. Absolutely everything. Any scoring, robot/ds communications (packet logging, I think), and any problems
Do you if there's any way we could get at the Einstein FMS logs? y'know... for science?


And everybody, let's try to keep a cool head. I know it's rough emotionally, and it's easy to get carried away. But that's won't solve anything. We're engineers. We fix problems, not complain about them.

[Racer26]

I'm completely livid.

FIRST should in no way allow this to stand. They should have moved to Galileo field after the first replay.

12 teams come through their respective divisional eliminations without a single comms issue, and come to Einstein, only to have 7 of the 8 matches have at least one robot sit dead for a non-trivial length of time?

Its absolutely unacceptable.

Woodie and Dean were obviously quite upset about it, judging by their faces on the webcast.

The only acceptable way to right this wrong now, that I can think of, is to crown ALL TWELVE teams 2012 Champions.

[mjustice66]

At least there were no comm issues in the last match...

Congratulations 16, 25, and 180!

987 was dead the last 20 seconds or so if they were running they may have been able to score 2 or 3 baskets to take a close victory.

[Vince lau]

Who won EI?

[Ryan Dognaux]

Not a single triple balance on Einstein because half of the robots that would have done were sitting dead. What a joke.

Quoted for truth. It's so incredibly sad. These teams put in thousands of man-hours and dedicate an entire season to achieving near robot perfection. And how are they rewarded? With field connection issue. What an embarrassment of a finale that Einstein was, the FIRST community is going to have a lot to say on this one. Why spend the time to compete in this competition if field issues are going to be the downfall of us at one point or another? I know we are in this for more than the robots, but it's incredibly frustrating when the even playing field we are all supposed to be playing on is anything but because of technical issues on FIRST's side.

[JohnFogarty]

I sat there during Gali's alliance selections going.
25, 180, & 16
THAT'S IT!
THAT'S MY FAVORITE ALLIANCE.
They went all they way too!

[Sean Raia]

Who won EI?

Probably the hardest question to answer right now

[Racer26]

I think FIRST will lose the respect of an awful lot of people if they don't do something to answer to the obvious problems on their highest stage.

[Pi Fighter]

At least there were no comm issues in the last match...

Congratulations 16, 25, and 180!

Two teams, one from red and one from blue, lost comm during the last match. I couldn't see the numbers from my seat, only the comm lights.

[Kevin Sevcik]

I second Vince. If anyone at the event is reading this thread, could they update us with the EI winner?

Also, the only thing more appropriate than the webcast dying after Galileo wins it all in F2 would be if it died after Curie sends it to a rubber match in F2.

[George Nishimura]

Who won EI?

I believe 1629 won it again. It was announced after Chairman's, wasn't it?

[sailer99]

Does anyone know the firmware on the different robots radios. At GTR West everyone with firmware 1.4 was downgraded to 1.2.1 because of massive connection issues during practice matches.

[Normtheman]

I was at Einstein and we may have found a reason for the comm problems once a bot hit the red alliance driver station red lost comm.

[Racer26]

I believe 1629 won it again. It was announced after Chairman's, wasn't it?

yes.

[nighterfighter]

I was at Einstein and we may have found a reason for the comm problems once a bot hit the red alliance driver station red lost comm.

Loose ethernet?

[George Nishimura]

It's ironic that the pre-match speeches was about how this is as good as any sporting event, one of the best competitions in the world, and the finals are jeopardized by communications issues. Especially when it's promoting technology.

[JackN]

Congrats to 25 on joining the two-time champions club. Congrats to 180 and 16 for finally getting a championship victory.

It is infuriating that all of the communications issues throughout eliminations ruined everything and overshadows their well-deserved victory. I thought going through divisional finals 987, 233, and 207 played the best out of anyone

[Tristan Lall]

What are the chances FIRST will refrain from tearing down the Einstein field until such time as they can run a few simulated matches on it? I'd say there's no time like the present to do some failure analysis, and I suspect there's no shortage of teams that would volunteer their robots for the task.

Once the field is gone, the evidence is gone (or at best, tainted), and it will be that much harder to convince people of the root cause.

(Of course, my congratulations to the winners and all of the runners-up.)

[nahstobor]

From a Member of the GDC in regards to a question regarding the control system/FMS problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etAya7xICWk&feature=youtu.be&t=7m13s

(Please watch the whole video, The link is only to recognize an interesting quote)

[Racer26]

It's ironic that the pre-match speeches was about how this is as good as any sporting event, one of the best competitions in the world, and the finals are jeopardized by communications issues. Especially when it's promoting technology.

Its all kinds of embarrassing for FIRST.

They're going to have to answer to it. I don't see how they can not.

[Robby Unruh]

I believe 1629 won it again. It was announced after Chairman's, wasn't it?

This is correct-- GaCo 1629. I think this is their second championship EI win, but I could be wrong.

[JohnSchneider]

1717 had the same problems on newton(as did we) and we compared notes. There is no way it wasn't the field. All other indicators were fine, go into auto, come out, no coms.

Utterly embarrassing.

[martin417]

Since the advent of the CrIO in 2009, we have found that if we turned the robot on in the queue (as directed by the FTA and volunteers), prior to the FMS displaying our team number, we had issues 100% of the time. If we waited until we were on the field with our team number displaying on the FMS, before we turned the bot on, we had no issues. This has caused friction between our drive team and the volunteers and the FTA at every regional, but especially this year at North Carolina. Every year, we confirm the behavior in front of the FTA in a practice match that if we turned on in queue, without our team number displayed on the FMS, we have many problems, camera issues, encoder and / or gyro issues, loss of comms, or extremely long delay in connecting to the field.

In 2009, at the recommendation of the FTA, our programmer (who is now a programmer for Sony) used a default robot project (in C++) and tried it on the field with the same result, so it is not our code.

For the record, we always program in C++, and use gyros encoders, cameras, and other sensors every year.

[Bill_B]

the other fields have been torn down already
Otherwise they have to pay the handling crew double time for working on Sunday? :rolleyes:

[rocknthehawk]

1717 had the same problems on newton(as did we) and we compared notes. There is no way it wasn't the field. All other indicators were fine, go into auto, come out, no coms.

Utterly embarrassing.

You were not alone. Many times have mentioned this same issue, on other fields. We played through two regionals without an issue. Coming to cmp, we dropped coms 3 or 4 matches. 1 was a failure of our own. We log all our data through the match (mostly to check shot speed)...the FTA couldn't find any issue in our system.


We were told every match to turn our robot on early. I loved the IFI system.


A side note, why is Chairman's not announced last anymore? It seems anticlimactic, especially being the biggest award to win.

[Robby Unruh]

You were not alone. Many times have mentioned this same issue, on other fields. We played through two regionals without an issue. Coming to cmp, we dropped coms 3 or 4 matches. 1 was a failure of our own. We log all our data through the match (mostly to check shot speed)...the FTA couldn't find any issue in our system.


We were told every match to turn our robot on early. I loved the IFI system.


A side note, why is Chairman's not announced last anymore? It seems anticlimactic, especially being the biggest award to win.

1114 got sideshow seats on the stage to watch the finals. I imagine this just being a special reward-- aside from winning the CCA, of course.

[Botwoon]

Does anyone happen to have screencaps of Woody or Dean during the Einstein matches?

[Teamcodeorange]

You were not alone. Many times have mentioned this same issue, on other fields. We played through two regionals without an issue. Coming to cmp, we dropped coms 3 or 4 matches. 1 was a failure of our own. We log all our data through the match (mostly to check shot speed)...the FTA couldn't find any issue in our system.


We were told every match to turn our robot on early. I loved the IFI system.


A side note, why is Chairman's not announced last anymore? It seems anticlimactic, especially being the biggest award to win.

We had very similar problems on Archimedes. We died twice, once for the first half of the match, and one for the whole time. I was told by the FTA that it was a problem with our radio. I believed him, but now I am not so sure.

[AlecMataloni]

Does anyone happen to have screencaps of Woody or Dean during the Einstein matches?

I remember watching them shaking their heads in disgust.

[Racer26]

1114 got sideshow seats on the stage to watch the finals trainwreck. I imagine this just being a special reward-- aside from winning the CCA, of course.

Fixed it for you.

[shawnz]

I'd really like to thank all of the field crew and admin for putting up with the obvious technical difficulties on Einstein. Whether they were really field issues or just coincidence (however unlikely), the show certainly went on. Hopefully by tomorrow everyone's nerves will have calmed and we can start appreciating all 12 teams that made it to Einstein for that fact alone, rather than bicker over who had the most optimal showing.

Regardless, congrats to 25/180/16 for a lovely performance and for taking the 2012 CMP banner!

[bduddy]

I remember watching them shaking their heads in disgust.Dean was right up at the edge of the field at times, which I don't think he usually does... also, Woodie seemed really rattled when he was announcing one of the awards (can't remember which one).

[Anupam Goli]

Woodie seemed to be sweating a lot and his hair was messed up, and he shook a lot during one of those presentations... they had a lot of stress. The best thing we can do is stand behind them and hope they resolve it.

[DominickC]

Unfortunately, this FIRST season has had a large spike in issues with the FMS at Regionals, and made it's way up to Einstein, delivering a coup-de-gras to the 2012 season. Does anyone else sense major change in the year(s) to come?

I've been using some of the 2000 FRC IFI Control Systems, and I've got to say, they are near bullet proof when they work.

It's very disappointing to see issues like this. I bet that every single team, winner or not, feels cheated out of a fair shot at the Championship. All of the teams were capable of winning, bar any FMS issues.

[shawnz]

To all those pointing out the reliability of the IFI control system: remember that it was much simpler tech and teams were asking much less of their robots back then (e.g. video streaming).

[Gregor]

They should have moved to Galileo field after the first replay.



Just wondering but why Galileo? :confused: I've seen a few people mention that field as an alternative.

[DominickC]

To all those pointing out the reliability of the IFI control system: remember that it was much simpler tech and teams were asking much less of their robots back then (e.g. video streaming).

You are 100% spot on. It just strikes me as odd how you can have advanced capabilities, or you can have nearly flawless reliability.

Does anyone know why "Code Bonde" was not put in place?

[Anupam Goli]

Just wondering but why Galileo? :confused: I've seen a few people mention that field as an alternative.

Galileo had the least amount of comm issues form what I've heard.

[dag0620]

Just wondering but why Galileo? :confused: I've seen a few people mention that field as an alternative.

Also it was the field closest to Einstein, so it would make sense to go their first.

[EagleEngineer]

One simple way to keep it fair on einstein, is maybe for next year, if a robot is not moving or has connection issues, they should replay the match (until the issues are fixed). I understand that they replayed the Semis, but the same thing happened in the replayed matches. Another thing maybe is to test out the einstein field with real robots before the actual semis happen, (maybe they did its just a suggestion). Anyway this even though this happened this is a good thing, because there is a good chance that there will be improvements to connectivity and the feild, next year.

[DominickC]

If they had replayed every match in which a robot was incapacitated for any length of time, I'd be willing to bet we'd still be watching. A new protocol for dealing with these issues should be put in place. The "it's a problem with your robot" explanation isn't sitting well with anyone. This holds true for Regionals and CMP.

[Anupam Goli]

If they had replayed every match in which a robot was incapacitated for any length of time, I'd be willing to bet we'd still be watching. A new protocol for dealing with these issues should be put in place. The "it's a problem with your robot" explanation isn't sitting well with anyone. This holds true for Regionals and CMP.

Problem is, it is the robot a lot of the time, or it's the connection between FMS and robot. The FMS rarely bugs out, and usually the wifi is pretty solid. I can't speak for 09 or 10 too much, but the D Links take a lot longer to boot up and seem to brick easily. My team has already been through 2.

[EricH]

To all those pointing out the reliability of the IFI control system: remember that it was much simpler tech and teams were asking much less of their robots back then (e.g. video streaming).
We didn't ask the robots to do video streaming because we knew the hardware couldn't handle it.

The IFI system, if the OI was upgraded to USB, would have been pretty solid for another couple of years (the Flightsticks were getting to be a pain to hook up). Beyond that, it would have needed a major overhaul, which IFI could probably have done just fine. That system could start in seconds, run just about everything needed with 99% reliability if you didn't accidentally get something unplugged (and the 1% typically resulted in a foghorn), and repeat that for a full season.

I think if IFI had been given a chance, they could have certainly risen to the occasion with a higher-performance system.

[DominickC]

@EricH - As it stands, the IFI system is perfect for running nearly any robotics project that you might want to do. Granted the serial interface is a pain, it's still a fully functional and robust microprocessor. While it won't do what we ask of our cRIO's today, it's earned my respect.

What about the use of an Arduino or similar type microprocessor?

[Donovan0217]

They should have moved to Galileo field after the first replay.

They really couldn't have moved, by the time the matches had even started all of the other fields were torn down.

[Ian Curtis]

Dean was right up at the edge of the field at times, which I don't think he usually does... also, Woodie seemed really rattled when he was announcing one of the awards (can't remember which one).

Dean walked through the camera frame visibly shaking his head while Woodie was presenting one of the awards. Dean usually crouches next to the field when he watches matches (one of the benefits of founding the competition I suppose), but he was clearly not having a great time.

I am sure they are just as upset about this, and probably more, than most of the people here. No doubt what happened this weekend will be extensively discussed at FIRST HQ in the coming months.

For those of you that were there, did the non-moving robots suck the energy out of the competition?

[bduddy]

For those of you that were there, did the non-moving robots suck the energy out of the competition?Oh, yeah. It was back a little bit by the finals, but the reactions during and after the semifinals were some of the most muted I've ever heard, a lot quieter than the divisional finals. I even heard some boos after... the replay of SF 2-1, I think?

[Racer26]

I will be floored if HQ doesnt post an update on Tuesday directly addressing the shenanigans on Einstein.

[Steven Donow]

Oh, yeah. It was back a little bit by the finals, but the reactions during and after the semifinals were some of the most muted I've ever heard, a lot quieter than the divisional finals. I even heard some boos after... the replay of SF 2-1, I think?

From what it seemed, one of the loudest cheers of the evening came when it was after they announced that the bad weather had passed and we were allowed to leave the venue. That says something.

[bduddy]

From what it seemed, one of the loudest cheers of the evening came when it was after they announced that the bad weather had passed and we were allowed to leave the venue. That says something.The loudest cheer of all was when they announced that they were going to replay the first two matches. The second-loudest cheer was during the replay of SF 2-1 (I think) when all 3 red robots were moving... for about ten seconds.

[Donovan0217]

For those of you that were there, did the non-moving robots suck the energy out of the competition?

It did, the matches had the potential to be the best of all this year, but fell short of expectations because of the non-moving bots.

[Botwoon]

Oh, yeah. It was back a little bit by the finals, but the reactions during and after the semifinals were some of the most muted I've ever heard, a lot quieter than the divisional finals. I even heard some boos after... the replay of SF 2-1, I think?

I definitely heard them. They were entirely justified in my opinion, and that isn't the way it should be.

[Racer26]

Something tells me the 4 Einstein teams who weren't at IRI last year will get their invites.

[Botwoon]

Something tells me the 4 Einstein teams who weren't at IRI last year will get their invites.

I can confirm the validity of this statement.

[Chexposito]

That entire sequence of events that occurred on Einstein was hard to watch as a FIRST alumnus. I know myself and several other alumni were very disappoint.

[Gregor]

That entire sequence of events that occurred on Einstein was hard to watch as a FIRST alumnus. I know myself and several other alumni were very disappoint.

As was I, watching my first ever Einstein

[Racer26]

I can confirm the validity of this statement.

Sounds like they already have :P.

[Chexposito]

As was I, watching my first ever Einstein

We were going to leave early because of the literal injustice we were watching unfold consistently infront of us (and was blatantly ignored). Of course this was the time the dome was quietly going on lock down due to the weather (we were forced to stay by event security).

[efoote868]

The loudest cheer of all was when they announced that they were going to replay the first two matches. The second-loudest cheer was during the replay of SF 2-1 (I think) when all 3 red robots were moving... for about ten seconds.

What about when the paper airplanes made it clear across the field?

[Steven Donow]

What about when the paper airplanes made it clear across the field?

That too...as well as the "waves of varying speed"

[Deetman]

@EricH - As it stands, the IFI system is perfect for running nearly any robotics project that you might want to do. Granted the serial interface is a pain, it's still a fully functional and robust microprocessor. While it won't do what we ask of our cRIO's today, it's earned my respect.

What about the use of an Arduino or similar type microprocessor?

Arduinos are great for what they are: a tool to teach people about electronics, instrument some sensors, make lights blink, and multitudes of other cool things but they are severely limited in both speed and memory to perform advanced tasks. I don't have the datasheets in front of me but I doubt that an Arduino is as powerful as the old IFI system.

That said there are multitudes of microcontrollers (and similar devices) out there that are plenty powerful (ARM, PIC, ATMEL/AVR, Freescale, pick an architecture!). What they don't get you is the "plug and play" features that we get with the cRio and associated tool chains that effectively help level the playing field. Instead of figuring out the low level implementation of say vision processing, we get tool chains that "work" out of the box. Sure there is a lot of fine tuning involved to perfect these out of the box utilities but the implementation is there for any team rookie to veteran to use. That is a huge advantage of the current system.

Where I think we are running in to problems as someone mentioned earlier is that no one understands the system top to bottom, controller to FMS and all the components between like they did in the IFI days. Sure, individual subsystems are well understood and characterized but do they all play nicely together? Is the cRio IP stack (implementation) implementing something that isn't compatible with the D-Link? The D-Link to the cRio? The D-Link to the FMS access point? This is the area that seems a bit grey to me and may be contributing to the unexplained issues. 95%+ of issues are easily explained (loose power connector, bad wiring, loose connection etc.), it is the others that are puzzling and I'm not sure have a known root cause. I'm not saying anything unexplained caused the issues on Einstein, just that there appears to be an underlying issue somewhere that can't be pinned down.

[bduddy]

What about when the paper airplanes made it clear across the field?Oh, yeah, that was great. The best one was the airplane that cleared the curtain behind the podium by a wide margin!

Were paper airplanes thrown at Atlanta, or is this a new tradition?

[aditya29]

Oh, yeah, that was great. The best one was the airplane that cleared the curtain behind the podium by a wide margin!

Were paper airplanes thrown at Atlanta, or is this a new tradition?

Not sure about Atlanta, but it definitely happened last year. Quite a few cheers for the couple that made it down to the field then as well :D

[nikeairmancurry]

Lets start a petition to replay the elims at IRI. Just to see how they would have played out. No rule changes, let this happen at the end of day 1 so that it gives everyone the chance to see these teams really play.

[Chexposito]

Not at Atlanta, it was started last year.

[Anupam Goli]

Lets start a petition to replay the elims at IRI. Just to see how they would have played out. No rule changes, let this happen at the end of day 1 so that it gives everyone the chance to see these teams really play.

I believe the 4 teams on Einstein that did not apply to IRI were invited already... Let's see if they accept!

[nikeairmancurry]

I believe the 4 teams on Einstein that did not apply to IRI were invited already... Let's see if they accept!

But to see them actually play the Arch vs Curie and Newton vs Galileo, would make it all the better..

[Deetman]

Paper airplanes were definitely present in Atlanta in 2004 and 2005.

[Anupam Goli]

I think they were invited just so they could have that Einstein rematch... but they'll stick around to play in quals and maybe elims.

[Racer26]

I suspect the biggest question mark of the bunch is 4334.

Calgary's a fairly long way from Indy.

[bduddy]

But to see them actually play the Arch vs Curie and Newton vs Galileo, would make it all the better..While I understand the idea, I'm not so sure about some of the things it might lead to. If Galileo loses they'll be forever known, rightly or wrongly, as "the alliance that only won at Championships because of field problems", and they deserve better than that.

[Lil' Lavery]

The staff at the Georgia Dome was not as tolerant as the staff in St. Louis seem to be about paper airplanes. I know there were attempts at them multiple years, but Dome security quickly put an end to them.

[lemiant]

We'd do it! We were planning on applying and making the treck anyway. Is the invite a real thing?

[frdrake]

233 software mentor here. I was down on the field for part of it and in the stands for part. Whether we won or lost we didn't want to play like this. We have absolutely no problem with losing cause you're beat by a better robot, but win or lose these matches just were not how we wanted to play the game. There were several problems with our opponents and while they were not so obvious, in the finals matches there were flickers of connectivity issues with some of our bots have longer bouts of "sudden" connection issues (233 in F1 and 987 in F2). I watched our robots more but I also heard there were issues with 180 in F2.

To the comment about sucking the excitement out of the air, it really did. The general feeling was that the entire crowd was pumped and everyone felt a real tingle of excitement after each divisional elimination match. After the Einstein matches though there wasn't rampant cheering, there were no exciting rallies or awesome blocks. It just felt hollow, because everyone knew that no matter who won or lost, it probably wasn't going to be based on robot design or driver skill or strategy.

As a mentor I feel bad for how it ended, but I feel even worse for how it ended for our students. Mentors can come back next year and go again but we had a good number of students that are seniors that this was their last go at it, this is the last feeling they're going to get from FIRST unless they decide to come back in the future and be mentors themselves.

As far as the issues themselves, I'm not sure what caused it, but I will say that Pink went through divisional matches and never had any period of connectivity issues, this was the first it appeared. I don't know they could have done anything differently, I think they knew it was a raw deal all the way around and all the EI teams I think recognize it. I just hope they can fix the causes of it and we can move on.

So congrats again to 16, 25 and 180, I know I talked to most of you there. All of the EI alliances were fierce competitors and I think we all want to be remembered for our performances in our division finals instead of what came out of the EI matches.

[Mark Holschuh]

I would like to congratulate teams 16, 25 and 180. Your alliance played great!

I would also like to thank our alliance partners 118 and 548. Both teams are well organized, highly disciplined, and extremely talented. It was a lot of fun developing strategies and playing with you. Who knows how far our alliance would have gotten if not for the communications issues on the Einstein field. A special shout out to their scouting teams, as the information you provided was absolutely the best I have ever seen.

I don’t know if we will ever know what was really causing teams to lose communications at the Championships. I know our team struggled with them at the Wisconsin Regional, and found the root cause to be a number of electrical issues with the robot.

Lastly we would also like to thank all of the dedicated volunteers at the Championship. You are the reason why FIRST is so great!

[qzrrbz]

While Einstein dead robot issues were obvious to the whole crowd, how many of the divisional elims had similar problems?

Pretty sure 1717/469/2471 would have rather have played all their matches with all guns firing! Were there others?

[lorem3k]

While I understand the idea, I'm not so sure about some of the things it might lead to. If Galileo loses they'll be forever known, rightly or wrongly, as "the alliance that only won at Championships because of field problems", and they deserve better than that.
I think some people may already (wrongly) have this impression of them.

[EricH]

Pretty sure 1717/469/2471 would have rather have played all their matches with all guns firing! Were there others?
Pretty sure I can say the same thing about 330 and 68--both had extended time periods where they were immobile. Kept the division semis close...

[qzrrbz]

Pretty sure I can say the same thing about 330 and 68--both had extended time periods where they were immobile. Kept the division semis close...

Didn't realize alliance 3 was sitting still, too -- the "luxury" of viewing remotely and being a slave to what the cameramen thought "interesting" at the time. That makes this whole result even more disheartening.

There's always IRI...

[EricH]

Didn't realize alliance 3 was sitting still, too -- the "luxury" of viewing remotely and being a slave to what the cameramen thought "interesting" at the time. That makes this whole result even more disheartening.
Watching the webcast, there was at least one time when both 330 and 1717 weren't moving at the same time, same area of the field (Red's scoring side). Not fun. In another match (F-1, I think), 68 spent much of the match immobile.

(For those not paying attention, this particular set of matches was Newton Semi 2, 1717/469/2471 against 68/330/639.)

And agreed on IRI. I think that IRI needs to have two sets of "special" matches: MAR champs/MSC champs and Einstein Revisited. Single elimination, comm issues are an immediate match reset.

[qzrrbz]

OK, that's Newton #1 (on Einstein), #2, #3 all immobile at some point or other.

How about the other divisions?

[Botwoon]

OK, that's Newton #1 (on Einstein), #2, #3 all immobile at some point or other.

How about the other divisions?

The Curie alliance was fine on comms on our field.

[George Nishimura]

So what happens at the end of this hypothetical "Einstein revisited"? Especially if 180/16/25 don't win, what exactly does it achieve? The winners won't become World Champions [especially because the conditions are different, you can't claim that this result is what would have happened on Einstein].

If it's for fun, and everyone's good-natured about it, and all teams are willing to participate, I'd be all for it.

But I fear it's not going to end well, and it's not going to bring any justice to proceedings.

[Don Wright]

So what happens at the end of this hypothetical "Einstein revisited"? Especially if 180/16/25 don't win, what exactly does it achieve? The winners won't become World Champions [especially because the conditions are different, you can't claim that this result is what would have happened on Einstein].

If it's for fun, and everyone's good-natured about it, and all teams are willing to participate, I'd be all for it.

But I fear it's not going to end well, and it's not going to bring any justice to proceedings.

I agree 100%. Let IRI be IRI...

I also believe that even though there are a lot of smart people in here discussing ideas about what is the problem and how to fix and things about the field not being used, etc...I don't think that many of you know really how everything operates and what goes on behind the scenes. (neither do I). It's all conjecture.

What we do know is that I'm sure this is now a priority at all levels of FIRST and something will be done about it. We may not hear a public statement from them until kick-off or until beta testing 2012... But I bet things change.

[Chi Meson]

So what happens at the end of this hypothetical "Einstein revisited"? Especially if 180/16/25 don't win, what exactly does it achieve? The winners won't become World Champions [especially because the conditions are different, you can't claim that this result is what would have happened on Einstein].

If it's for fun, and everyone's good-natured about it, and all teams are willing to participate, I'd be all for it.

But I fear it's not going to end well, and it's not going to bring any justice to proceedings.

Also agreed. We don't want to require that the winning alliance must show up to validate their win.

[LeelandS]

All controversy aside, congratulations to the new world champion, 16/25/180, The Raider Spam Squad (I toyed with Baxter Spam-Botics, but it doesn't sound quite as nice).

And a round of applause to 233/987/207. They were great matches (complications aside). 1126 has a soft spot in our hearts for PINK. We had the honor of teaming with 233 at IRI last year, and got to work with an amazing team (for a brief time, but nevertheless). 233, like ourselves, is one of the teams considered one of the best to have never won the world championship (not saying we're anywhere near the level PINK is. Not even close). PINK is one of my favorite team, they always build great robots, and we hope they don't need to wait too much longer to win the big one we all know they deserve.

Personally, I was hoping the 2056/1114/4334 alliance would take the gold home, but complications obviously prevented that.

I feel there is an unnecessary amount of backlash towards FIRST. One of the major selling points of FIRST is that we're every bit as fun and competitive as a sporting event, but we all conduct ourselves in a professional manner. Right now, that's not what I'm seeing. Yes, the complications on Einstein are disappointing. We all want to see the best of the best square off on Einstein and put on some great matches. Yes, I'd like to know what happened. But a lot of people seem to be crucifying FIRST for field issue when no one really knows what happened.

What a friend of mine hypothesized was that the targeting systems and such on the robots sucked up too much bandwidth from the FMS, and the easiest way to relive that pressure was to shut robots off for a while. We experiences a similar problem at Finger Lakes, and every team was asked to lower the Frames per Second of their camera. While I'm not sure if that's what happened, and I know I'm not really well versed in how the FMS operates, it seems like a logical idea, and certainly proves that maybe it wasn't JUST the field that was the problem.

What I'm getting at is, maybe it's a little premature to be seeking a pound of flesh from FIRST when we don't know the whole story. Maybe it was the robots, maybe it was the field, maybe it was the robot's interaction with the field. I suggest we wait and see what FIRST says on the matter, if they say anything. Until then, we're largely jumping to conclusions.

[rjbarra]

It is time to get CISCO or Juniper as sponsors and put in a bullet proof network. Einstien should have been tested with practice matches. I will be talking with Cisco this week.

[Anupam Goli]

In 09 and 10, how effective were the Linksys modules?

[rjbarra]

http://www.automation.com/content/ni-announces-third-party-wireless-modules-for-io

[sgreco]

It's too bad that Einstein came down to this. I don't know the details of the problem, but if FIRST addresses nothing else this off-season, they need to address comm problems on the field. This simply cannot happen on the biggest stage, or any lower stage for that matter. It's disappointing in a sense for the teams that won to know that even though they were very deserving champions, there will be some form of an asterisk next to their championship title. It's also disappointing for the teams that lost on Einstein because they will never know exactly what could have happened if they were given a fair chance, with all the robots moving, to win. It's very possible that the winning alliance would have won anyway, regardless of comm issues since everyone was suffering from them. They are very deserving, and I congratulate them on what they were able to do. The Einstein finals were shaping up to be epic. We had a rookie appear on Einstein, 1114 and 2056 were allied together. Hall of fame team 16 was going for their first championship, along side 25 who already had a title to their name. Pink, arguably the best team never to win a championship, was battling to finally take home the hardware with 987 who had beat them on Einstein in 2007 (feels like yesterday). I believe 118 was making their first trip to Einstein along side 548, who was right in the middle of playing their best competition ever to date. It's really a shame, and I hope FIRST addresses this very soon. Something needs to be done about the comm issues. It's been a big problem for teams at all levels of competition, and it simply cannot happen again. We will never know quite how epic these finals could have been, but it will go down in history as yet another FIRST championship, and hopefully successes of next year will overshadow everything that went wrong this year.

[Dad1279]

.......I feel there is an unnecessary amount of backlash towards FIRST. ......

Then you have probably never had your robot randomly die, with no chance to debug/repair/fix a problem that may or may not repeat itself, and may be better or worse at a different regional. It has happened to us, our alliance partners, probably 10% of the teams at any given regional, and has determined the outcome of many (if not all) regional events for the last two years.

This should have been addressed sooner (last year), Obviously the problem was acknowledged by adding the data logging this year. The FTA should make debugging info available, and First should release enough info about the FMS to allow us to debug the situation.

Just to put a dollar amount on it, I'd wager the average team spends more than $10,000 per event. 10 matches per event, $1000/match, $3000 per alliance, $6000 per match for 6 robots on the field. If I was paying a vendor $3000/minute for communications & control, I'd think it reasonable to expect 100% communications.

[CalTran]

Considering how much time over on Archimedes they spent, during qualifications, trying to get 1018 up and running (Even going so far as to tether them up to the system for testing(?)), I feel although something to this effect should have been implemented on Einstein.
While it's true that 180-25-16 put up amazing matches, especially with 180 and 25 just clearing balls faster than anything I've ever seen, it would have been nice to see 6v6 matches on Einstein.
Is there anything better they could have done? In retrospect, yes. While thinking on the fly? Probably not. You could see the head FTA running around the Red Alliance side during the matches (Kept track of him via his hat) clearly trying something.

Ironically, Einstein himself had a quote to match this:
Insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result.

[bduddy]

What a friend of mine hypothesized was that the targeting systems and such on the robots sucked up too much bandwidth from the FMS, and the easiest way to relive that pressure was to shut robots off for a while. We experiences a similar problem at Finger Lakes, and every team was asked to lower the Frames per Second of their camera. While I'm not sure if that's what happened, and I know I'm not really well versed in how the FMS operates, it seems like a logical idea, and certainly proves that maybe it wasn't JUST the field that was the problem. This is not in any way an excuse. The entire system was provided by FIRST, and as far as I know no bandwidth limits or restrictions were given. If FIRST wants to advertise these advanced capabilities, including camera streams, then they need to provide a system that can actually support them.

[jspatz1]

Since the advent of the CrIO in 2009, we have found that if we turned the robot on in the queue (as directed by the FTA and volunteers), prior to the FMS displaying our team number, we had issues 100% of the time. If we waited until we were on the field with our team number displaying on the FMS, before we turned the bot on, we had no issues. This has caused friction between our drive team and the volunteers and the FTA at every regional, but especially this year at North Carolina. Every year, we confirm the behavior in front of the FTA in a practice match that if we turned on in queue, without our team number displayed on the FMS, we have many problems, camera issues, encoder and / or gyro issues, loss of comms, or extremely long delay in connecting to the field.

We have had this same experience, and on the advise of an FTA started rebooting our robot on the field after others were on. This seemed to help at our second regional event this year, but not at Champs. We had persistent control issues in virtually every match on Curie. Kudos to our incredible driver for scratching and clawing his way to a #4 seed result with only partial control of his machine. We are among many other teams who will wonder what they might have achieved with full control of their robot.

[LeelandS]

Then you have probably never had your robot randomly die, with no chance to debug/repair/fix a problem that may or may not repeat itself, and may be better or worse at a different regional. It has happened to us, our alliance partners, probably 10% of the teams at any given regional, and has determined the outcome of many (if not all) regional events for the last two years.

This should have been addressed sooner (last year), Obviously the problem was acknowledged by adding the data logging this year. The FTA should make debugging info available, and First should release enough info about the FMS to allow us to debug the situation.

Just to put a dollar amount on it, I'd wager the average team spends more than $10,000 per event. 10 matches per event, $1000/match, $3000 per alliance, $6000 per match for 6 robots on the field. If I was paying a vendor $3000/minute for communications & control, I'd think it reasonable to expect 100% communications.

No, I know we, as I'm sure with every team in FIRST, have had our own issues with communication. Now, I'm a little saddened to say they've never influenced the world championship (I wish we've been to the finals of Einstein), but nevertheless. Yeah, it's frustrating to suddenly lose control of your robot and never know what happened or if it will happen again. But I just don't think it's right to seek blood from FIRST because no one has any clue what happened. Now, I'll agree, it seems odd that suddenly teams who, for the most part, experienced minimal connection issues prior suddenly started dying. And yeah, that points to a problem on the FIRST end. But until we actually find out what happened, can we just start throwing accusations are FIRST? Well, apparently we can. Because people are. And that's not what we're supposed to be doing.

FIRST isn't about the matches. I've said it before, I'll say it again: The matches are a means to an end. The matches are played to give kids a median to get inspired. Playing to win is not what FIRST is about. With or without connection issues, the kids on each team engineered great pieces of machinery. Yeah, we didn't get to see them play the matches to the end, uninterrupted. And yeah, it's reasonable to expect full field functionality for the price we pay in registration. And yeah, maybe precautions should have been taken. But precautions for what? We don't know what happened. I doubt most people at FIRST know what happened. So until then, can we really just rage at FIRST and the people who PUT ON ALL THIS TO BEGIN WITH? We're going to start throwing accusations at the people who allow us to do what we do? I just don't understand how we can act as such without even being sure what the problem was.

This is not in any way an excuse. The entire system was provided by FIRST, and as far as I know no bandwidth limits or restrictions were given. If FIRST wants to advertise these advanced capabilities, including camera streams, then they need to provide a system that can actually support them.

I'm not trying to excuse anything. I'm merely trying provide a scenario in which the FMS wasn't the only thing at fault. Yeah, maybe the field wasn't perfect, but it wasn't like it just randomly decided to start dropping teams at a whim. FIRST tries to provide us with the best experience possible, but of course there are going to be flaws in every system. You could spent a month straight refining a system, but I guarantee someone will find a way to break it. That's the nature of the game. I'm just trying to get people to see that there's no reason to be jumping on FIRST's back because the field MAY not have worked the entire season.

[NickTosta]

I feel there is an unnecessary amount of backlash towards FIRST. One of the major selling points of FIRST is that we're every bit as fun and competitive as a sporting event, but we all conduct ourselves in a professional manner. Right now, that's not what I'm seeing. Yes, the complications on Einstein are disappointing. We all want to see the best of the best square off on Einstein and put on some great matches. Yes, I'd like to know what happened. But a lot of people seem to be crucifying FIRST for field issue when no one really knows what happened.

The backlash is very necessary given the circumstances. You see, the problem isn't the existence of field issues; the problem is the pervasiveness of the field issues AND the fact that nobody knows how to solve them.

Consider this: you go to play a match, your autonomous works just fine, then the robot doesn't move for the rest of the match. After the match the FTA tells you that there is a glitch with the firmware on the cRIO and that you need to re-image it, and that will solve the problem. You are angry that you lost a match, but you know exactly how to fix the problem and you know it won't happen again. This scenario does happen in some cases, like the USB hub not plugged in / needs to be unplugged and plugged back in thing that occurs from time to time.

Now let's consider what has also been happening this season: you go to play a match, and for a period of time during the match (either part of teleop, all of teleop, or the entire match) your robot does nothing. After the match, the FTA tells you he has no idea what the problem is but that the problem can't be the field and that it has to be your robot. The FTA does all he can to help you find the issue throughout the competition, but to no avail. You keep losing matches due to some mystery issue that you can't solve and go home with nothing.

Do you see why people are so angry?

If people had answers as to why these comm issues were happening, if people knew how to solve the problem, nobody would be complaining! That's why there isn't a massive thread on CD right now about how FIRST needs to fix the USB hub problem - that's because it's a simple problem that only occurs once, the FTA knows how to diagnose it, and everyone knows how to fix it.

These issues have been extremely widespread this year, and still nobody knows what is going on. That's why it is so infuriating, and that is why FIRST absolutely needs to do something about this.


edit: And in response to LeeLandS above me, part of the reason a lot of people are calling for blood is that FIRST has repeatedly told teams that the problem is with their robots, not with the FMS. If the problem is with the robot, then that suggests that there is something in the control system that teams can fix to ensure their robots work. The fact that FIRST can barely tell us where the problem is, nevermind how to fix it, is pretty scary. It means that you have no idea whether or not you will have control of your robot.

Ultimately, I don't care where the problem is or what causes it, and I don't think a lot of other people do either. FMS, cRio, the D-link, it doesn't matter. I just want to know that if my robot doesn't move somebody is going to be around that knows why and will ensure it doesn't happen again.

[LeelandS]

Do you see why people are so angry?


Of course I see why people are angry. I'd be furious as heck if it cost my team Einstein. But what I don't agree with it people are taking to a public forum and bashing FIRST's work on the field. People are absolutely entitled to express themselves in a public domain, but it just seems unnecessary to me that people are now hating on FIRST because the field could perform. Do I think there's an issue? Of course. Am I going to take up arms against FIRST? No. If anything, I owe FIRST the benefit of the doubt, at least.

[NickTosta]

Of course I see why people are angry. I'd be furious as heck if it cost my team Einstein. But what I don't agree with it people are taking to a public forum and bashing FIRST's work on the field. People are absolutely entitled to express themselves in a public domain, but it just seems unnecessary to me that people are now hating on FIRST because the field could perform. Do I think there's an issue? Of course. Am I going to take up arms against FIRST? No. If anything, I owe FIRST the benefit of the doubt, at least.

Oh, i see what you're saying. Yeah, there's definitely no reason to say that FIRST is terrible or anything like that; in fact, I feel that the 2012 Championship Event went significantly better than championships last year. Having all the fields in the dome and such was fantastic. FIRST definitely did a lot of things right this year. It's just a shame that the comm issues, starting at a regional level and working their way all the way up to Einstein, have to overshadow it all, and now FIRST has to do something about it.

I'd say that if FIRST releases a statement about it within the next few days, and a solution within the next couple months, we can't really complain. I'd say the only scenario in which we can truly start bashing FIRST is if they try to sweep it under the rug.

[Kevin Sevcik]

FIRST isn't about the matches. I've said it before, I'll say it again: The matches are a means to an end. The matches are played to give kids a median to get inspired. Playing to win is not what FIRST is about. With or without connection issues, the kids on each team engineered great pieces of machinery. Yeah, we didn't get to see them play the matches to the end, uninterrupted. And yeah, it's reasonable to expect full field functionality for the price we pay in registration. And yeah, maybe precautions should have been taken. But precautions for what? We don't know what happened. I doubt most people at FIRST know what happened. So until then, can we really just rage at FIRST and the people who PUT ON ALL THIS TO BEGIN WITH? We're going to start throwing accusations at the people who allow us to do what we do? I just don't understand how we can act as such without even being sure what the problem was.I'll grant you for the sake of argument that the sole and only purpose of the matches and competition are a means to an end to get kids excited about engineering. Given that, these comms issues are a huge problem for FIRST. If a rookie team runs into this problem and has a non-functional robot for an entire regional, how inspired are the kids? How likely are they to come back? If a potential 2013 rookie is watching Einstein, the pinnacle of our sport, and sees several of our greatest teams with broken, non-working robots, isn't that going to dampen their enthusiasm a bit?

To summarize, many of us aren't upset with FIRST because great teams were brought low by this glitch. We're upset because FIRST is shooting itself in the foot and embarrassing itself on a national level with technical problems that someone there should have known about and solved or mitigated by now. We're upset because we care about FIRST's goals, and FIRST is making it harder for us to achieve those goals.

[EricH]

And yeah, that points to a problem on the FIRST end. But until we actually find out what happened, can we just start throwing accusations are FIRST? Well, apparently we can. Because people are. And that's not what we're supposed to be doing. I don't think people are directly going after FIRST. We're going after the system FIRST provides. There is a difference. We're saying that the system does not work. Because FIRST provides the system and expects us to work with it, we expect FIRST to fix it, which they haven't exactly done well in the past. They've given it a pretty good shot. This year, it just wasn't good enough.


Playing to win is not what FIRST is about. With or without connection issues, the kids on each team engineered great pieces of machinery. Yeah, we didn't get to see them play the matches to the end, uninterrupted. And yeah, it's reasonable to expect full field functionality for the price we pay in registration. And yeah, maybe precautions should have been taken. But precautions for what? We don't know what happened. I doubt most people at FIRST know what happened. So until then, can we really just rage at FIRST and the people who PUT ON ALL THIS TO BEGIN WITH? We're going to start throwing accusations at the people who allow us to do what we do? I just don't understand how we can act as such without even being sure what the problem was.
First, I agree that playing to win is not what FIRST is about. But after that, please replace FIRST with FRC, FIRST Robotics Competition. There is a difference. This is a competition. I don't compete for second place, I play to win. If this is not a competition, then why do we compete at all?

It's reasonable, this being a competition, to expect that anything provided by the competition organizers will meet spec. Try playing a night NFL game without the lights. A hockey game when the ice is very soft. A soccer game when the lines have been worn down by weather/lawnmowing/playing, and not repainted. Because items that FRC either supplied or spec'd failed at a critical time, and nothing appears to have been done, on multiple chances, to fix it we can indeed say that FRC needs to try to fix the field connections, whether on the robot end or the field end. Boy would I like for it to be on the robots--then it means the system works. But doggonit, if a robot is working "perfectly" and the only thing that changes is the field and it doesn't work, then I'll tell you that the robot sure ain't the first place I'm lookin' for that problem's cause!


I'm just trying to get people to see that there's no reason to be jumping on FIRST's back because the field MAY not have worked the entire season.Einstein's entire season was spent in storage. Most of the other fields seemed to have issues that were traceable to one or two units. Einstein should have been the issue-free field because, after all, it didn't get 300 teams trying to connect through it, possibly breaking stuff. Instead, it had 12 teams, who had worked well up until Einstein. This was Einstein's entire season, and it didn't work properly--either that, or the robots, which had connected and had largely problem-free operation the entire season, suddenly and completely died.

For the rest of the statement, I agree that someone will find a way to break any system. But if 1/6, or is it more like 1/3 or 1/2 of the users at a given time the system is supposed to be working are having trouble, that someone is most likely the system itself. Am I saying the FMS is the culprit? No. I'm saying that something in the field is the most likely culprit. Whether it's the FMS or some 25-cent resistor in the boxes or the wireless networks I don't know. But if I'm FRC HQ, I'm going to be going in with as many experts as I can find to solve the problem.

[PiKman]

For those of you that were there, did the non-moving robots suck the energy out of the competition?

The energy was definitely sucked right out of the crowd, and that's tough to do at the FIRST Championships. However, the crowd was already being pulled down by the Einstein schedule of events leading up to the first match. The stands were full by 3:00, yet the festivities didn't start until after the scheduled 4:00 time. Then, the pre-match speeches were the lengthiest I've seen in the seven CMP events I've attended. The crowd was pretty well anesthetized when the first match started at (I think) 5:20. Then, the non-moving robots and feeling of indecision on whether to even cheer for the winner put a dagger into the Einstein portion of the event. It was striking to see the speeches and awards continue with virtually no public acknowledgement of what was happening on the field, a real "fiddling while Rome burns" moment. In all, the crowd sat there for four hours to see 20 minutes of robot action (and partial inaction).

[cgmv123]

It is time to get CISCO or Juniper as sponsors and put in a bullet proof network. Einstien should have been tested with practice matches. I will be talking with Cisco this week.

The FMS access point is a CISCO product. The Control System advisor that helped us with our one hangup said it was ~$10,000. I don't know the model number. I'm trying to find out, but I have nothing so far. It's about the size of the D-Link, but with 6 antennas sticking out the top.

Edit: the one place I thought the details would be doesn't have it. All the Field setup manual says is "Field Access Point" and "Cisco radio". It does have an image though. Still looking.

[tanmaker]

If it hadn't been for the storm, I would have left the arena long before the final matches were played, along with the 3 other alumni that were with me. We were embarrassed to be apart of the organization while we were there.

All four of us have dealt with the system the past 4 years it's been in use, with myself being a ref the past 3, and being right on the field while things like this happened. We all agreed that the issue had to be the field, it was the only explanation that made sense to us. But here is the real reason we were so upset and disappointed with FIRST/FRC: After replaying the first 2 matches with the same problems occurring, FIRST/FRC refused to verbally acknowledge the problem and let spectators know what is going on. They played right through the problems, and didn't stop when they saw the same problem was happening in subsequent matches. Those of us in the stands saw that something was wrong, and we deserve to know what was going on and what was being done to fix it. Playing it off like there was no problem at all was extremely insulting.

I just hope the winning alliance recognizes that something wasn't quite right, and agree to play at IRI.

[RyanN]

I'm actually glad this happened on Einstein. Maybe this issue will get the attention it deserves. I feel terrible for all the teams on Einstein that had the problem though. It really is heartbreaking to see big name teams go down for no apparent reason and have the finger pointed at themselves as the problem.

Many teams have been plagued by this issue this year at the regional level. An issue that is mysterious and unknown. No explanation, and FIRST has been just brushing it off as robot problems.

I think it has been pretty well documented here, and by the CTA that the issues do not involve a team's robot, but FIRST has not come out with any official documentation.

Their stance to us about Bayou was that they would check the logs AFTER the Championship... Why the heck would they wait until AFTER the Championship to figure out our problems, or any teams with field communication problems?

This should have been handled when the Regionals were going on to ensure that the issues would not come back.

I expect FIRST to come out with an official statement. I don't honestly care that we didn't work in Bayou. What I do care about is our reputation as a team with a well-built robot that runs every match no matter what. We proved ourselves at the LSR, but Bayou, we couldn't run a single full match, and may times were bypassed and placed as a No-Show robot.

The issue with us was not with the cRIO. Communication & Code lights went red, and we dropped the camera when we dropped communication. If it was the cRIO rebooting, we would still see the camera coming through. So that narrows it down to just one single device not working on our robot. The DLINK router.

What is the DLINK dependent on to run? The 12V-to-5V converter, PDB, main switch, anderson connector, and battery. Those are the failure points for the DLINK dependancies. We ruled that out early in our diagnosis, and I'm pretty sure (actually 100% confident) that the teams that made it to Einstein had good power connections to their DLINK. It would be something if EVERY team on Einstein made it there with bad power going to their DLINK. I'm also confident that the teams on Einstein are established enough to make sure that their connections are good.

That narrows down our problem to the DLINK router itself, and the field.

Here's what I did to our router to try to stimulate our problem. In the pits at Bayou, I pulled our DLINK router off of our robot and slammed, and I mean slammed, slapped, hit, punished, the DLINK router against an aluminum extrusion on our robot. It did not fail a single time. Of course, we were hard wired, but that proved to me that the issue wasn't with the wiring on the DLINK.

So now we have narrowed down our problem to the wireless components of the router, and the field. At Bayou, we were allowed to run our robot wirelessly, on a stand, on the side of the field on Friday night. You can bet we abused our robot trying to get the thing to drop, but we couldn't. It worked PERFECTLY. It had also worked PERFECTLY that same afternoon during lunch time. We also beat the crap out of robot then and didn't lose any packets or drop.

This, to me, proves that it is not a robot issue.

So what was different during those times? The crowd wasn't there. During lunch time, there were only a few people in the stands, and on Friday night, no one was there except us and another team that started experiencing some communication issues.

I honestly think the air is saturated with radio signals. This is how I'm thinking about it. A radio wave is not any different from a light wave, right? Except on a different wavelength, right? You have a few white lights, but you're not worried about the white lights, what you're worried about is the flashing red light. It's easy to follow the red light when there are just a few white lights, but imagine if you have tons of white lights, and not just white lights, blue ones, green dones, ultraviolet ones, every color... Now try to follow the red light you started off with.

It's impossible. And to amuse myself some more... different colored light is just a different wavelength. The channels and frequencies of radio waves of the routers we use, and the cell phones we use are no different. People much smarter than I am have figured out ways to filter out all these other frequencies, but there is a limit to how many radio waves there can be at a single time.

I imagine that there were tons of people in the stands, wrapping around the field, during the Einstein matches. Each person (assumed) is carrying a cell phone. Many of them on laptops. Instead of having a faraday cage where no signals go through, you're concentrating all the signals from every cell phone to the field like a parabolic dish.

Basically, my best guess is that the issues teams are having are interference. Why some teams don't have it, and some teams do is unknown to me. I noticed a big difference, minus the actual ability to connect and remain connected to the field that Friday night at Bayou. The difference was dropped packets. When we were on the field with 5 other robots and the crowd, we had very high packet loss and latency. When no one was there on Friday night, or even the one match we played on Thursday, when no one was there, we had very low packet loss and latency.

[Steven Donow]

I honestly think the air is saturated with radio signals. This is how I'm thinking about it. A radio wave is not any different from a light wave, right? Except on a different wavelength, right? You have a few white lights, but you're not worried about the white lights, what you're worried about is the flashing red light. It's easy to follow the red light when there are just a few white lights, but imagine if you have tons of white lights, and not just white lights, blue ones, green dones, ultraviolet ones, every color... Now try to follow the red light you started off with.

It's impossible. And to amuse myself some more... different colored light is just a different wavelength. The channels and frequencies of radio waves of the routers we use, and the cell phones we use are no different. People much smarter than I am have figured out ways to filter out all these other frequencies, but there is a limit to how many radio waves there can be at a single time.

I imagine that there were tons of people in the stands, wrapping around the field, during the Einstein matches. Each person (assumed) is carrying a cell phone. Many of them on laptops. Instead of having a faraday cage where no signals go through, you're concentrating all the signals from every cell phone to the field like a parabolic dish.

Basically, my best guess is that the issues teams are having are interference. Why some teams don't have it, and some teams do is unknown to me. I noticed a big difference, minus the actual ability to connect and remain connected to the field that Friday night at Bayou. The difference was dropped packets. When we were on the field with 5 other robots and the crowd, we had very high packet loss and latency. When no one was there on Friday night, or even the one match we played on Thursday, when no one was there, we had very low packet loss and latency.

Excellent analogy with the light waves, but my question in response to this theory (and I'm nowhere near an expert, or knowledgeable at all in this field, so it's not rhetorical, it's an actual question) is if it happened so strongly at this level on Einstein this year, why has it not happened in the past? Wasn't last year's control/field system as a whole(minus the Kinect) the EXACT same components as this season?

[sanddrag]

When we were on the field with 5 other robots and the crowd, we had very high packet loss and latency. When no one was there on Friday night, or even the one match we played on Thursday, when no one was there, we had very low packet loss and latency.I am no expert in radio waves, but I can say we've experienced the same thing. We ran our robot in the school's talent show. We did a trial run with nobody there with great connectivity from probably 70 feet away. In the actual event, we had about 900 students all presumably with cellphones (on), and we were struggling with latency and packet loss even over a 30-foot distance to the robot. There has to be some correlation.

One of the things I want to know is, of all the teams that didn't work at some point on Einstein, what code language were they running?

[RyanN]

Excellent analogy with the light waves, but my question in response to this theory (and I'm nowhere near an expert, or knowledgeable at all in this field, so it's not rhetorical, it's an actual question) is if it happened so strongly at this level on Einstein this year, why has it not happened in the past? Wasn't last year's control/field system as a whole(minus the Kinect) the EXACT same components as this season?

True...

There was a lot more data being transmitted this year with the camera interface added this year. More data to be decoded properly. That doesn't help us in our situation at Bayou though. We went back to stock code, no camera, no CAN, and still couldn't connect.

I also know that the smart phone market has been exploding for the past few years. I actually can't name any one of my friends, and almost every smart phone has WiFi onboard. I know, at least with my iPhone, if I have the "Ask to Join Networks" switch on in the Wi-Fi menu, it will scan and ask me to join some networks. This creates network congestion, but no one notices it normally because there's not network jam, but get over 1000 people, with say 50% of them carrying around a WiFi enabled smart phone, and I would say you might run into some trouble.

I honestly have no idea... it's all speculation until FIRST comes out with an official statement. It might be a configuration problem on their part with FMS. Who knows for sure?

[RyanN]

I am no expert in radio waves, but I can say we've experienced the same thing. We ran our robot in the school's talent show. We did a trial run with nobody there with great connectivity from probably 70 feet away. In the actual event, we had about 900 students all presumably with cellphones (on), and we were struggling with latency and packet loss even over a 30-foot distance to the robot. There has to be some correlation.

One of the things I want to know is, of all the teams that didn't work at some point on Einstein, what code language were they running?

LabVIEW

[NickTosta]

One of the things I want to know is, of all the teams that didn't work at some point on Einstein, what code language were they running?

I'm fairly certain that 118 uses C++. I think the problem is independent of the programming language being used.

One random theory that hasn't been thrown out there yet - I wonder if all of the teams that had issues are using the CAN bus? Or maybe they are all teams that are using all 4 ports on their router? Or maybe they are all teams that are using the serial port on the cRIO?

[RyanN]

I'm fairly certain that 118 uses C++. I think the problem is independent of the programming language being used.

One random theory that hasn't been thrown out there yet - I wonder if all of the teams that had issues are using the CAN bus? Or maybe they are all teams that are using all 4 ports on their router? Or maybe they are all teams that are using the serial port on the cRIO?

We tried with and without CAN. No difference. I'm fairly confident that this isn't a cRIO or a software issue. If it was, these teams would have also seen this issue on their pre-Einstein fields.

[techhelpbb]

I've asked this elsewhere but the D-Link is a dual band AP. If it's listening on 2.4GHz, even if the field is in the other band, 2.4GHz connection activity could interact with the radios.

Normally in a WiFi network a dual band radio would offer bridging of all the traffic on the switch with all the traffic authorized on both bands. The only way to stop that behavior is disable one band.

It could be that in a room with a very large number of 802.11G networks just the scanning past that other band could cause issues if the 2.4GHz radio portion is not disabled.

Also to the conversation directly above at MAR Mount Olive (I was in spare parts) one team having major communications problems was using Labview and CAN. We discussed the possibility of the issue being the CAN, but it didn't seem likely. Someone did use my oscilloscope to check their power, but in the pits not on the field. We also considered that Labview might not trap exceptions quite the way other languages do so. One should keep in mind that with so many language options it's entirely possible that Labview has one communications effecting issue and C++ has others. Some examples of communications issues effecting teams running C++ were noted elsewhere in the forums.

There are so many possible combinations of problems. Hard quantifiable evidence will be needed. Now the problem for FIRST will be that Championships are over and the effected robots might not be in the states they were at the time of the issues when and if they appear at other events. In point of fact, neither will the fields after they are taken down, moved and reassembled elsewhere.

[ticoloco12]

Hello all,

Now that the dust has settled, if only a tiny bit, I'll share what I saw from Einstein. You may know me as Will, I work with team 207's strategy and drive team. I am a FIRST Alumni and have been mentoring for 4 years now. let me make it clear that Team 207 is home and nothing but thankful to team 233 and 987 for an amazing time at world champs and our first trip to Einstien. Through the chaos that was the Finals, they showed that they are pure class and of the highest examples FIRST has. (341, 254,and 78 as well)

Yes, many, an unforgivable number in fact, of robots were either dead or experienced significant periods of losing coms. Some, clearly game changing. This sucked the emotion and prestige of the finals, clear out of every team on the field. Not one of the drive teams, or pit crews in our alliance cheered as we made it into the finals after semi's. It was a feeling of disbelief, that FIRST was allowing such a thing. It would have taken 30 minutes, to replay all of Einstein back to back in my mind. but that did not happen.

As a programming mentor for Pink said earlier, this is not how ANY FIRST team wanted to win or lose. I remember being on the drive team myself and dreaming of one day coming back to mentor my team there, to feel that rush, to cheer to the absolute maximum the human lungs can. To have been dead silent, and not even be able to rally our team between F1 and F2 because everyone's sentiment was, whoever works longer will win, is the largest disappointment I have ever had in my FIRST life. Even if making it there after an EPIC curie division Finals. From what I see in finals videos and scores, 341's alliance in the division finals was as competitive if not more so than any alliance on Einstein.

However, the most important feeling and experience to get away from this, is the spirit of FIRST teams. They are completely separate from fields and external chaos such as sever weather, curses, coms issues and all else. Every team on Einstein was united in their dislike of what happened, and treated each other graciously and professionally. When 987 needed time to inspect their robot and wanted to call a timeout (and I still don't know why we were denied one) 180 came to offer any assistance and tried to call theirs as well. both finalist alliances congratulated each other, on the field, and in the pits. The students were proud and even 118, and the Canadian teams did not hesitate in spreading hugs and handshakes to us all. The students themselves began making plans to replay all matches at IRI with robots in the same condition as they left the field Saturday. Dean Kamen was on the field, as was Dave and the look on their face said it all. They were disgusted and Dean was almost in tears as a Girl from a team I cannot remember pleaded the cause of her team. Dave was gone it seemed by the time the finals were over, and Woodie's face from the stage looked like he was viewing somebody drown and could not help. I insist, the truest qualities of FIRST were never seen in such bright colors and they were here. Technology failed us and perhaps the field crew have a huge catastrophe to correct. These finals will be remembered as the day the field chose the winner. BUT IN NO WAY, SHOULD THESE EVENTS TARNISH THE IMAGE OF FIRST, ITS MISSION, ITS STUDENTS, TEAMS, OR FOUNDERS.

Some of the greatest Robotics matches I have ever seen took place on Curie field in the finals. And I speak for every member of team 207 when I say we are beyond proud of all we did, and all our alliance partners did. We would put money on our alliance anyday, and if we lost a fair match, we'd cheer so loud for the alliance that beat us that our lungs would explode. Regardless of what trophies or banners the fields gave us, the embraces, laughs, comments, and connections with amazing FIRST-ers are sooooooo much more valuable. I truly hope the Einstein replay at IRI happens, not to play these matches, as much as to share them with such amazing teams and individuals, like we should have been able to.

I hope a lot changes next year, but only as far as the field goes with technology, and in organization and error management. the Human aspect of FIRST and it's competitors is something we can be prouder today of than ever.

-Will

[Mulcahy]

I would like to thank Dean and Woodie for the amazing experience the last few days have been. If we came in 1st or 400th, the fact that we were able to participate in such an event is truely remarkable. Woodie even delayed getting on a plane to sign a shirt for my son. Thank you for everything!

-Steve and Brendan from team 987

[Thad House]

I think that if FIRST can figure out a way to get the robots back to HQ with the field as well, and maybe get some of the students over to HQ they might be able to work this out better then just looking at the logs alone. I am sure that none of the robots have left St. Louis yet, and if FIRST gets in contact with the teams soon enough, they might be able to reroute the crates to HQ. I am sure most of the teams would be willing to do this, seeing as we have multiple HOF teams that show that they are all about helping FIRST.

[qzrrbz]

After 40 years of dealing with software problems, it is my gut feel here that we are chasing one of the worst nightmares of any troubleshooter -- a problem that is *data* dependent, *environment* dependent, and probably intermittent at best.

A terrible thing to try to reproduce, understand, and solve! Good luck to all involved! :ahh:

[kylelanman]

I was there and after the second match on Einstein myself and the others I was with were not watching the robots during the match. We focused our attention on the driver station lights. Particularly at approximately a minute left it was inevitable that one or two would start flashing. My team dealt with connectivity issues in WI in 2010. We made it through F1 undefeated and then F2 and F3 comms dropped right after switching to teleop. Field personal told the students "Your comms were in a tizzy" As others have said I'm really hoping that because this finally happened on Einstein that FIRST will deal with the issues.

The FMS access point is a CISCO product. The Control System advisor that helped us with our one hangup said it was ~$10,000. I don't know the model number. I'm trying to find out, but I have nothing so far. It's about the size of the D-Link, but with 6 antennas sticking out the top.

Edit: the one place I thought the details would be doesn't have it. All the Field setup manual says is "Field Access Point" and "Cisco radio". It does have an image though. Still looking.

I'm going purely off the looks but the AP looks like a Cisco AIR-AP1252 with a wireless G and wireless N modules installed. We have these same access points were I work and they run about $900. My experience is they are a rock solid device.

In the little information I have found on the FMS (FTAA Training section of the FIRST site) there is also a Cisco router involved not sure of the model number there.

Multiple people have indicated that the FTA has told them to wait until the robot is on the field and there team number is displayed before powering on the robot. My guess is that each team is on there own SSID and VLAN. If the robot connects prior to the correct VLAN being configured on the fly then all the devices are not able to take part in the initial discovery phase and the ARP cache is then lacking key entries. I'm guessing/assuming the router is reconfigured in between each match automatically by the FMS. My theory is that the FMS configures the AP SSID first and then the routes on the router. If the robot connects to it's SSID but the route is not yet configured for it to speak to the driver station and possibly the FMS server then problems arise.

With all that being said I could see it taking a while for the robot to connect or for it to not connect at all. But I can not think of how the above scenario would cause it to die a minute or so into the match.

Any FTA's or FTAA's out there that care to weigh in on this?