View Full Version : This Is Appalling Behavior At A FIRST Event
JaneYoung
03-05-2012, 14:03
I was checking in on one of the threads here in CD that I've been following and I came across Cat's post in the thread. This (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1166312&postcount=96") is a link to her post in the thread and I'm including the text here in this one.
This is scary, horrifying, and beyond the scope of rude. Those who behaved in this manner should be ashamed. This is an opportunity for team leaders to take note and take the time to talk to teams that travel to events about respect, patience, and kindness.
I am horrified. Sorry to bring this to light before asking your permission, Cat. It's too important to take a chance in having you say, no. :)
Cat's post:
I went through the entrance a number of times and would like to give a slightly different perspective to everyone on the situation. Because I have to operate from a wheelchair or scooter, I am frequently blocked by people on foot and forced to sit and wait for someone in the crowd to stop and let me through. I spend a lot of time sitting and listening to how the crowd behaves.
While I agree with the OP that the behavior in the situation was not appropriate, please think a little about what the volunteers at the door have to go through. Taken over a period of time, the volunteers at the door were subjected to a great deal of hostility from the people trying to come in. If you observed the number of people at the door, you would see that the number of volunteers there doubled and then tripled as time went on, simply to try to handle the massive number of people trying to get through the door with sunglasses or nothing.
It appears to me that the volunteer coordinators actually did try to do something that would benefit everyone by increasing the staff and decreasing the overly heavy load on the volunteers present. It may not have been punitive enough for some, but isn't this supposed to be about teaching people?
Large masses of people moving through an area take on a sort of mentality of their own and believe me this can be INCREDIBLY intimidating. I know what great people participate in FIRST, but they all forget their manners sometimes. During championship, I had people in the crowd race in front of my wheelchair, jump OVER my chair and jump in front of me to get into the elevator because they were faster, forcing me to wait for the next one.
Many of the teams would come up at full speed while yelling "ROBOT" and never even pause to let me or anyone else try to move out of the way. I was hit by robots 3 times. When I attempted to walk the small distances that I can with my cane instead, it was kicked out from underneath me twice. No apologies.
In short, I don't think that everyone is taking into account the stress on all of the people involved. Take a step back from the arguing, look at the other person's perspective and realize what they are going through. It was not easy for any of the parties involved because they each have to look at it a different way from a different type of stress. Solutions are generally best reached with patience from all parties, regardless of how difficult it may be.
Please notice how gracious this 2012 WFFA is being and learn from it. I would love to spend a day with each one of the individuals that decided to jump the chair, cut in front of the chair, hit the chair with the robot, kick the cane, and block the path. I would NOT be gracious.
Jane
Many of the teams would come up at full speed while yelling "ROBOT" and never even pause to let me or anyone else try to move out of the way. I was hit by robots 3 times. When I attempted to walk the small distances that I can with my cane instead, it was kicked out from underneath me twice. No apologies.
Im very sorry to hear this wow. You have a cane and got hit by robots on carts 3 times I hope you feel better Cat.
This attitude is not what First is about.
popnbrown
03-05-2012, 14:29
To be honest, I see a lot of these core values being lost. It makes me very sad, especially because all of last night I was thinking, if I really want to stay in FIRST anymore. It's turning into just another robotics competition, where people only care about winning robots and building stuff.
On a more relevant note, I actually was a volunteer trying to handle crowd control for awards ceremony. Compared to non-FIRST people, several members of the crowd were super gracious. There were 4 students in particular, whom definitely were part of a winning alliance, but patiently waited on the side WAYY OUT OF THE WAY, to wait for their wristbands.
There was a similar person in a wheelchair that people literally jumped over, ALMOST tripped over, to get to the other side. I got pretty upset and carried out your wish Jane. Caught a hold of a few of those students (and one mentor actually), gave them a good lecture and made them wait for 5 minutes for the other crowd to go.
If you're a mentor, I beg you, lead by example. The core values of FIRST are what make FIRST so special, don't take that away.
techhelpbb
03-05-2012, 14:33
To the person in the quote, as someone that was stuck with a cane for a quite some time, I hope you were not harmed. Sometimes people do not think.
This is appalling behavior ANYWHERE, not just at a FIRST event.
JaneYoung
03-05-2012, 15:07
There was a similar person in a wheelchair that people literally jumped over, ALMOST tripped over, to get to the other side. I got pretty upset and carried out your wish Jane. Caught a hold of a few of those students (and one mentor actually), gave them a good lecture and made them wait for 5 minutes for the other crowd to go.
Thank you, Sravan.
You are right, Kimberly. Absolutely. It is appalling to me at a FIRST Event because I agree with Sravan to a degree - I'm seeing a change that I'm not happy with. If the leaders don't take the time to lead, using the Core Values of FIRST, then we're in a heap of trouble. If the young people don't use the Core Values to help them make their decisions in times of stress, pressure, and excitement - then we're losing ground year by year. We should not be losing ground, we should be gaining it.
I noticed a lot of attendees at the event using canes. All ages. I worried about them in the crowd but didn't think to worry about the people in chairs. Goodness. We need more 1902s around to help get this mentality/behavior nipped in the bud. There should be buttons that say, What would 1902 do? That would help to fix a lot of our problems with callous and hatefully obnoxious behaviors.
Challenge: If you can think of a team that exemplifies the Core Values of FIRST and has a reputation that reflects kindness, helpfulness, generosity, professionalism, and respect - post it in this thread. It might be fun to make a batch of those buttons with the team numbers. Mine is and always will be 1902, Exploding Bacon aka Exploding Grace.
Jane
There should be no teams yelling "robot".
This is a best practice that should be implemented on every team:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1139404&postcount=35
We had the green shirts talk about this with every team at our local regional this year. It works.
Really not trying to derail your thread. But I do think the issues are related and one can help with the other. The mentality and "blindness" that comes with transporting the robot (and yelling "ROBOT") is ingrained in the culture of FRC. It needs to change.
techtiger1
03-05-2012, 15:26
[QUOTE=popnbrown;1166522]To be honest, I see a lot of these core values being lost. It makes me very sad, especially because all of last night I was thinking, if I really want to stay in FIRST anymore. It's turning into just another robotics competition, where people only care about winning robots and building stuff.
I don't even want to get started on this, but why do you think certain members of the GDC stepped down among other reasons. Jane, I agree with you as well, sometimes I question what direction FIRST is going as it grows.
Richard Wallace
03-05-2012, 15:27
There should be no teams yelling "robot".I agree with your conclusion and with the detailed recommendation in the post you linked.
It would be good to have best practices for moving robots to and from teams' pits covered in a section of the Manual, probably the administrative "At The Events" section. Do you know who to approach at HQ about making that change?
On a related note: a lot of people in the FRC community do not share our views on this. At several events this year I have observed well-intentioned volunteers instructing team members that they SHOULD be yelling "ROBOT!" while moving to and from their team's pit.
Back to the main topic -- the way Cathy was treated is certainly appalling. I feed pretty certain that it will be noted by at least one member of the FIRST board, and I hope that appropriate steps will be taken.
I agree with your conclusion and with the detailed recommendation in the post you linked.
It would be good to have best practices for moving robots to and from teams' pits covered in a section of the Manual, probably the administrative "At The Events" section. Do you know who to approach at HQ about making that change?
On a related note: a lot of people in the FRC community to not share our views on this. At several events this year I have observed well-intentioned volunteers instructing team members that they SHOULD be yelling "ROBOT!" while moving to and from their team's pit.
Changing the culture, even the FIRST culture, is hard work. ;)
To me, this falls under "safety". The safety advisors at Chesapeake were happy to add this request to their meet and greet with each team.
But not really sure who to start with at HQ. Operations?
camtunkpa
03-05-2012, 16:26
There should be no teams yelling "robot".
I agree completely. I can't tell you how many times while heading out to the queue in a line full of robots we had teams behind us pushing and shoving and yelling robot. I reminded several teams that we are all headed to the same place.
JaneYoung
03-05-2012, 16:36
There are several excellent discussions about yelling "robots", and the downside of that, already available in CD. This thread is not about that. This thread is about robots hitting/running into wheelchairs. I don't mind a little discussion about the yelling part but the thread is not going to move completely in that direction, sorry. You can color me furious.
Jane
Now while I wasn't at champs this year, I was in complete shock this happened.
I must say ditto to the fact that this shouldn't be happening anywhere.
Now I know I'm just a HS Student and can't exactly take the mentor part of preventing this from happening, but I know I'm going to try to let my peers on my team know through our student leader channels about this and how it's not ok.
There are thousands of FIRST teams who get core values. They are even judged on it.
FLL Core Values:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4zsyVH2fpI&list=PLDA7CF09A1841C7D5&index=2&feature=plpp_video
There were also complaints about scouting teams sitting in the seats reserved for handicapped. I sent a note back to volunteer managers to see if there were extra crowd control volunteers who could remind teams why these areas were set aside. I have no idea if there was follow-up.
I thank Cat for sharing her experience. I think posts like this can help remind all of us we are one big community, and individually and as community we can raise awareness to make sure this doesn't happen again at any FIRST event.
DonRotolo
03-05-2012, 17:02
There should be no teams yelling "robot".
Completely agreed, one of my biggest peeves. The entire season, when someone yelled "Robot" I would yell back "Human" and stand my ground. If they made eye contact, I would explain that Humans have priority over Robots, and if they would just say "Excuse me please" I'd move.
Best was the girl in Team 2557's pit in Archimedes who would yell "Robot" loudly any time she SAW a robot. ANY robot. From her seat in the pit. :rolleyes:
Back to the original post: Those folks would be well-served by spending 2 days in a wheelchair. It is a real eye-opener.
Solidstate89
03-05-2012, 17:40
That kind of behavior is unforgivable regardless of the venue. But to see that not only FIRST students but even (at least in one case) a Mentor was involved in such wanton behavior is truly depressing. :( I sincerely hope that Cat wasn't injured in anyway.
JaneYoung
03-05-2012, 17:40
Those folks would be well-served by spending 2 days in a wheelchair. It is a real eye-opener.
Yes. Having to navigate distance, terrain, crowds, doors, bathrooms, and very obnoxious people with robots powered by lack of thinking or awareness of surroundings.
Jane
Regarding the crush of humanity at the entrance, is there a better solution than going to amusement park style line management to enter? Especially since you don't really need it but once a day.
As a mentor on a team who came up to Chesapeake for the first time this past year the reduction in teams yelling "Robot!"constantly was awesome.
Alan Anderson
03-05-2012, 17:57
There should be no teams yelling "robot".
This is a best practice that should be implemented on every team:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1139404&postcount=35
We had the green shirts talk about this with every team at our local regional this year. It works.
It only works if the green-shirted volunteers agree with it. After I saw a person holding a sign at the entrance to the pits in St Louis reminding everyone to yell ROBOT! whenever pushing a robot cart, I spoke with a couple of the safety advisors to ask if people yelling ROBOT! was a "best practice" or if it was something that should be discouraged. They both looked at me as if I were from another planet and told me that every team should be encouraged to do it...and then they pointed out the person they had just commended for holding a sign at the entrance to the pits reminding everyone to yell ROBOT! whenever pushing a robot cart.
At two separate events this year I was talking with a student in a team's pit when that student suddenly yelled ROBOT! in my face, making me jump backwards. In neither case did I actually end up in the path of the oncoming robot -- in fact, in both cases the robot was already past the pit and was heading away. I am afraid I might have gotten a bit snippy at the offenders, pointing out to them that their shouting was taking attention away from what people needed to be watching out for, and that they had no reason to be shouting about a robot that they themselves were not escorting, especially when there was nobody in the way of said robot who needed a warning.
While I agree that this is not the kind of behavior we should tolerate, there are some things that could help reduce some of the crowd problems. I will say that at some point on Saturday morning there was a woman trying to get on the elevator when the door opened there was a surge of people trying to get on before her. I was actually able to block part of them from behind me but was surprised how many people got on the elevator ahead of her.
Foot traffic at St Louis could have been directed much better. There was only one entrance to the pit, once you got past all the people standing in front of the entrance (great place to just stand) and actually got into the pit area, you were met with people trying to go out the same way everyone was coming in. Then you had to cross the line of foot/robot traffic that was coming and going from the fields not just FRC but FTC as well. I wont even go into the people that feel they need to stop for what seems like no reason when waking in a crowd. Kind of like getting to the top of an escalator and stopping to look around to find where you want to go next.
Now back to the original subject...
I think if I was in a wheelchair and someone tried to jump over me to get somewhere faster or ahead of me, they might find them selves looking up at me from the floor.
Tom Line
03-05-2012, 18:41
That is horrible behavior. We have a talk before every event with our team and try to explain the image we need to present and the behavior we all need to adhere to.
As FIRST grows you will naturally see a larger cross-section of people involved. I've seen similar complaints about the people who frequent Chief Delphi as well. People complain that it has become less technical, less close-knit, and more of the /facebook/twitter/meme/ crowd has adopted it. I think that is the natural result of growth.
The first thing you can do is continue to remind your team of how they need to act. In fact, I know many teams ban their students from posting on Chief Delphi altogether. I wouldn't recommend that myself, but having a mentor who follows all your team's posts might be a good idea.
Likewise, at events, SPEAK UP. Passivity has never changed anything. If a team is being rude, saving seats, etc, then talk to the FTA and volunteers and have them handle it, or talk to the teams themselves.
We have a lot of new people entering the sport (just wait until the Boys and Girls teams come in) and they will not start out knowing the culture.
Heck, I STILL see low number teams with flashing lights and sound on their carts, taking extremely loud and obnoxious noisemakers into the stands, and reserving entire sections for themselves.
We have a lot of work to do.
PAR_WIG1350
03-05-2012, 18:53
It only works if the green-shirted volunteers agree with it. After I saw a person holding a sign at the entrance to the pits in St Louis reminding everyone to yell ROBOT! whenever pushing a robot cart, I spoke with a couple of the safety advisors to ask if people yelling ROBOT! was a "best practice" or if it was something that should be discouraged. They both looked at me as if I were from another planet and told me that every team should be encouraged to do it...and then they pointed out the person they had just commended for holding a sign at the entrance to the pits reminding everyone to yell ROBOT! whenever pushing a robot cart.
At two separate events this year I was talking with a student in a team's pit when that student suddenly yelled ROBOT! in my face, making me jump backwards. In neither case did I actually end up in the path of the oncoming robot -- in fact, in both cases the robot was already past the pit and was heading away. I am afraid I might have gotten a bit snippy at the offenders, pointing out to them that their shouting was taking attention away from what people needed to be watching out for, and that they had no reason to be shouting about a robot that they themselves were not escorting, especially when there was nobody in the way of said robot who needed a warning.
I never saw that sign, but it explains a few things. For the entire competition I tried to stick to a polite "excuse us" with "please"s and "thank you"s if there was time. But few even acknowledged our presence. Sometimes adding something like "our robot needs to get by" would get their attention (probably due to the inclusion of the word robot). But some clusters wouldn't even acknowledge this. They were all expecting to hear someone scream ROBOT! to signal that they had to return to reality and pay attention.
This level of complacency is not only rude, it can be dangerous. Regardless of whether or not there is a robot anywhere near you, blocking an aisle is not a good idea; furthermore, ignoring someone who politely asks to get by you, again, whether or not they have a robot, is just plain rude. The proper response would be to do your best to facilitate their request to pass. If there is simply a traffic jam, explain that to the person. If their is a reason that you are blocking the aisle, such as a pool of battery acid or some other safety hazard, notify the person. It is almost never acceptable to ignore someones polite request to get by a crowd in the pits, or in most situations really.
torihoelscher
03-05-2012, 19:17
My grandparents that are in their 80's were ran over by people trying to get to seats when the doors opened in the morning. We were heading to the scholarship breakfast and were completely ran over. People were also running and the volunteers are saying "No running. Stop running!" No one that I could see was listening to them. I would occasionally yell to people "Stop running and be courteous to other people!!" My grandparents cannot walk fast and it gave them great stress to be going through a crowd of immature (sorry if I offend) students/mentors.
Solidstate89
03-05-2012, 19:25
My grandparents that are in their 80's were ran over by people trying to get to seats when the doors opened in the morning. We were heading to the scholarship breakfast and were completely ran over. People were also running and the volunteers are saying "No running. Stop running!" No one that I could see was listening to them. I would occasionally yell to people "Stop running and be courteous to other people!!" My grandparents cannot walk fast and it gave them great stress to be going through a crowd of immature (sorry if I offend) students/mentors.
As said in a couple of other posts. Stuff like this is a two-fold problem. Not only are there people who are totally oblivious to the needs of those around them but you have a bottleneck affect where everyone is forced through one entrance.
Every morning at FLR (and pretty much every other regional, but FLR was the only one I attended all 3 days of) everyone lined up in the overcrowded atrium waiting to get in. Three sets of triple doors (that opened IN towards the crowd I might add...) was not enough to relieve the congestion.
To keep problems like this from continuing to happen you need effort from both the teams themselves (whether from Mentors or team leadership that discourage this) and from FIRST itself at every event to better handle such bottleneck congestion. And I just want to make it clear, even with the problem of forcing everyone through one entrance, that's absolutely no excuse for running people over. However if given multiple entrances along with a different mentality from the team members themselves, issues like this can be solved.
popnbrown
03-05-2012, 19:42
The first thing you can do is continue to remind your team of how they need to act. In fact, I know many teams ban their students from posting on Chief Delphi altogether. I wouldn't recommend that myself, but having a mentor who follows all your team's posts might be a good idea.
I would be unhappy with a banning of a student from Chiefdelphi. To be honest, CD is one of the first places where I got a negative remark about what I said. My intention was completely not harmful but I could see how I said it in a way that came off as negative. It's been a place not only for me to learn, but to develop a completely different set of communication skills. See that's the really cool thing about FIRST, people who have been in it, understand this is a learning process. We are changing culture and bringing about new ideas, CD to me is a place to make sure that we can look after ourselves and correct ourselves ESPECIALLY high school students, before they go out in the real world, and say some unintentionally negative thing in the workplace.
Likewise, at events, SPEAK UP. Passivity has never changed anything. If a team is being rude, saving seats, etc, then talk to the FTA and volunteers and have them handle it, or talk to the teams themselves.
So this is a good topic, I'm guilty as heck of saving seats. I save them for whatever team I'm in, because a lot of the students are wandering doing their task etc. This touches on a point further on, but I love the spirit and enthusiasm that FIRST allows us to bring. Every single event I go to, I tell the team I'm with, you haven't had a successful competition till you loose your voice (jokingly of course) but EVERYONE takes it seriously. Bringing it back, the reason I save seats, is so that my team can sit together and in the case of Ctrl-Z, be a gigantic blob of orange, with one unanimous voice, just being proud that we have a robot out there moving after 6 weeks of some very tough work.
So while I understand the seats saving cringing, I must respectfully disagree. Of course, I'm usually reasonable and save only the seats I know will be taken up, but sometimes you have to overestimate.
Heck, I STILL see low number teams with flashing lights and sound on their carts, taking extremely loud and obnoxious noisemakers into the stands, and reserving entire sections for themselves.
I'll give the flashing lights and sounds on their carts, even the talking loud. If voice count, then I am guilt again for obnoxious noisemakers in the stands. As a new mentor, I've actually clashed a few times with several people on this subject. My team 1403 has always stood for their matches, it wasn't until I was a sophomore, when we got loud, and I mean LOUD, during our matches. I kid you not, if it weren't for the fun I had my sophomore year at the NJ Regional and the Boston Regional, I'm not sure I would be here. Those two events directly were a cause to my becoming a team captain, continuing the spirit tradition of our team, and pushing that to my new team here.
On that note, to share a quick story and make this post EVEN longer. During the finals at Midwest, (it got heated), my entire team was standing. At this point, we thought we were in contention for several awards, but most of us knew chances of actually winning anything were slim. We got picked, which was super exciting, but we lost in QF. Anyways, we were watching the finals, and I was upset, because as many mentors feel, I knew I had a terrific group of kids and I really wanted their rookie year to be special. Then......I hear a roar of "Red Alliance"...."Blue Alliance"...chant behind me. I turn around it was my team, even though this match meant nothing to them. They proudly wore their really really bright orange uniform and were chanting for several veteran teams, that they've never met till 2 days ago. Their chant actually got a hold of nearby Wildstang, and a far Bomb Squad, who also joined in.
All I can say is, and I'll stick to this for a long time. I could care less about what awards we got, what college these kids go to, how much money they make. What mattered to me, is that for 3 days, all they cared about was having fun, getting out there, learning new things that their mentors have no idea about (Bomb Squad's catapult), and most importantly being passionate. That's what I think is missing from today's world, passion. People do things because it's a good thing to do, but there is no passion. And to see that a bunch of rag-tag group of kids, who most of were forced into this by their parents, develop this passion for being EXCITED about something they worked on and no matter what happened this passion not leaving, totally made my year.
So after a long-winded post, and raising way too many points. I'll conclude with this. FIRST has the potential to be something really really great. IT is about robots, and as a hopefully future-roboticist, that makes me happy but the real truth is that it is ALSO way more than robots.....way more....i feel like i keep saying this.
I wish Will.I.Am, took part in FIRST. I would talk about FIRST everywhere I go (which I guess he does now :D).
I'm done for now.
torihoelscher
03-05-2012, 19:43
As said in a couple of other posts. Stuff like this is a two-fold problem. Not only are there people who are totally oblivious to the needs of those around them but you have a bottleneck affect where everyone is forced through one entrance.
Every morning at FLR (and pretty much every other regional, but FLR was the only one I attended all 3 days of) everyone lined up in the overcrowded atrium waiting to get in. Three sets of triple doors (that opened IN towards the crowd I might add...) was not enough to relieve the congestion.
To keep problems like this from continuing to happen you need effort from both the teams themselves (whether from Mentors or team leadership that discourage this) and from FIRST itself at every event to better handle such bottleneck congestion. And I just want to make it clear, even with the problem of forcing everyone through one entrance, that's absolutely no excuse for running people over. However if given multiple entrances along with a different mentality from the team members themselves, issues like this can be solved.
I think FIRST should make an announcement during Kick Off or before the first event to remind them to not rush into the venue and run over people or something like that.
I was not at Champs this year but by what I see nothing has changed. We are in a what's in it for me society or I am the most important person attitude. When people, young and old, begin to see that treating others as more important than self then everybody will win. Most volunteers do so because they want to make things better for all. As time goes on and they continually get abused they will go way. If this happens at FIRST we will be in huge trouble. I guess the word that should be added to FIRST would be RESPECT. If we could get all teams to add that to their goals and all mentors to teach and demonstrate wouldn't things be a lot better?
As for yelling robot I was at a regionals and got really upset about it. I ended up yelling at a student who screamed robot from a foot behind me. I then went to the safety guys and they said that it was encouraged and promoted. What can you do? Every time I heard robot I stopped right where I was and didn't move till they went around me. Childish yes but after a while the safety guys took notice and started speaking to the teams. FIRST NEEDS to put a stop to the yelling and bring back courtesy and respect for others.
"FIRST is about changing the culture." Unfortunately, many people believe that the culture that needs changing is the "nerds are uncool outcasts to be shunned until you need them". That change is well on its way.
The culture that needs to be changed is "my/our needs are more important than your/their needs". It is the "win at all costs" attitude that we need to be careful of - and yes, leaping over barriers, saving seats in the stands, being rude to the volunteer who is looking out for your safety are all just as bad as using an illegal motor on the robot. Many teams put a great deal of emphasis on the latter and not enough on the former.
Promoting Gracious Professionalism is a way allow for competition to happen in a culture of mutual support and respect. It is, I believe, the most important thing that FIRST needs to export and share with the greater community. It is the hardest part of what we do - but it is also the best part of what we do.
- Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox
A lot of these issues seem like we sometimes forgot the manners that grandma taught us. We should be eager to offer seats, assist the elderly, young, infirmed. "Please", "thank-you", "excuse me"... the really simple stuff that lubricates social interaction. We shouldn't be courteous because we may get an award or recognition, but rather we would not want our grandma to be disappointed with our behavior and embarrass our family (or team)
Any team willing to spend the time and effort to make a video or skit about venue/pit courtesy? We all can use a reminder, I guess.
Solidstate89
03-05-2012, 20:17
I think FIRST should make an announcement during Kick Off or before the first event to remind them to not rush into the venue and run over people or something like that.
As you said yourself, that seems to have no effect on them ;)
I think a mentor or a student leader needs to chew them out first before their behavior changes.
I wasn't there, bou can't blame an event organizer for not opening more doors to get in when there aren't enough people to watch those entrances or the facilities are set up in a way where it simply won't make sense. No matter what they changed about the door situation, everyone is still going to the same place.
This whole thing comes down to teaching patience and respect. If people wait their turn and allow others to get through a door when they are ready, there rarely is a problem and bottlenecks don't cause problems. The result is smooth traffic flow. It's the same theory that seems to work perfectly well on freeways until that one person feels that they can cut in line forcing everyone to stomp on the brakes and slowing all those behind them to stop. If everyone walks at the same speed and is courteous the process is much faster.
Oh, and doors have to open out from a commercial building. Fire codes don't like people to be trapped inside a building when there is a rush to get out (i.e. a fire). There very rarely is a problem with people rushing to get into a building. That brings up another scary thought, what if someone at or near the door had fallen? How many feel that the runners would have stopped to help that person up and make others aware? I don't even want to think of what could have happened from the descriptions I've heard here...
Some additional thoughts...
Regarding the "Robot" yell - Teams are encouraged to do this by the UL Safety Judges. Yes, the yelling of "ROBOT!" is annoying (I usually respond with "POLO!") but that's not the problem. The problem is that some seem to believe that loudly yelling "ROBOT!" gives them the right of way - so much so that they run people over who don't clear a path. FIRST can start with the basic idea that while people are asked to clear a path for robots, people ALWAYS have the right of way. Being late for your match doesn't mean you have the right to run people over - regardless of what you yell.
Regarding saving seats - I tell my team to go into the stands and "take up space". Early on they sit apart and take up some room - indicating that we would like to have other members of our team join us throughout the day in this location. I instruct them to allow anyone to come into this space and sit for as long as they want - they can't save any seats. I also encourage them to give their seats up to "outside" spectators. As for teams that do "save" seats I suggest this conversation:
"Mind if I sit here?"
"These seats are saved for team XXX."
"Awesome! I've always wanted to be part of team XXX!"
(Sit down and ask them about their amazing team.)
I've done this several times. At one event, we ended up mixed up with another team throughout the entire section. It was awesome - Lots of new friends!
I love the idea of a video/skit about pit courtesy! What about an animation contest - like the one for safety? (A GP animation?)
Just some musings...
- Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox
I noticed more and more unacceptable behavior with my team these past few years, so this year I actually spent a few hours going over many of these items in this post... most notably...
1) Yelling... I made it a big point this year that our drive team and pit crew WILL NOT yell "ROBOT" at the top of their lungs, because it is turning into a "oneupsmanship" between each other and with other teams. Before you know it, its a contest who can yell ROBOT the loudest before each match. But as more and more spectators visit the pits, it's just becomes ridiculous and juvenile. Anyhow, the lessons went well and this season there was less yelling of ROBOT and more "PLEASE EXCUSE US, ROBOT COMING THROUGH..." . Then we got to the Spokane regional where a few volunteers really enjoyed yelling at the top of their lungs and wanted teams to yell some more.... Huh... Well, what can you do...
2) Seat Saving... I not only instructed my students about this BUT also my team parents and mentors. I showed them in the manual where it clearly states no saving seats. Then I explained to them as Mr. Van stated, that they can still stake out an area of the stands for the team to watch, but they are too never say "these seats are saved" or place ribbons/tape to reserve seats.
3) General Spectating behavior.. we are very excited to see our robot in action, but students and parents are instructed to sit for the majority of the match. We expect the same courtesy of those who sit in front of us. If you want to stand the whole time, go to the top of the stands. Noisemakers, like airhorns are not allowed.
4) Lines and crowds... I told them that pretend their grandparents were in front of them or next to them at all times. Take your time, don't run, watch your manners, be careful of what you say and how you say things.
If all team coaches or a team parent takes an hour or so to go over these items before each competition, I think we can right the ship a bit. I like the idea of a video illustrating these points and play it at kickoff and/or during opening ceremonies of each regional. Hmmm... gives me an idea....
What about the idea of a robot "highway"? Organize the pits in a way that robots will merge into one aisle or path that leads to the dome (similar to the robot path from the pits to the dome) but extend it to the pits. All the robots will be restricted to traveling in designated paths. You can't yell "ROBOT" at the top of your lungs, when the people in front and behind you are both robots.
Just my two cents.
There are thousands of FIRST teams who get core values. They are even judged on it.
FLL Core Values:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4zsyVH2fpI&list=PLDA7CF09A1841C7D5&index=2&feature=plpp_video
There were also complaints about scouting teams sitting in the seats reserved for handicapped. I sent a note back to volunteer managers to see if there were extra crowd control volunteers who could remind teams why these areas were set aside. I have no idea if there was follow-up.
I thank Cat for sharing her experience. I think posts like this can help remind all of us we are one big community, and individually and as community we can raise awareness to make sure this doesn't happen again at any FIRST event.
This, so much of this.
My friend Ria was in a wheel chair because of an injury, and she was kicked out of her handicapped spot, note right behind our team, because they were scouting there. I had a graciously professional conversation with the scouter, yet she still argued that she was in the right. I actually had to 'threaten' to ask security to explain to her that handicap spots are for the handicap.
I would have gladly given up my spot in the stands for her to scout, if it meant my friend could feel like she was part of the team and part of the stands.
Tom Line
03-05-2012, 22:24
Dare I say that in this case, if we want a culture change, it's FIRST and more specifically FIRST HQ that needs the change?
If they were to change the manual and state very clearly that teams seen saving seats would not be in the running for the gracious professionalism award, that teams YELLING to make people move would be removed from the safety award, and that teams with lighted flashing noisemaking carts would not be allowed to bring them on the competition floor, I think the culture change would be complete by the end of 2013.
As FIRST members we're fighting a losing battle if the FIRST management is promoting some of these issues in the wrong manner.
Perhaps someone needs to be seriously hurt jumping out of the way of someone yelling 'robot' for FIRST to take notice, in the same manner that the FMS issues were brushed off until something catastrophic happened. Unfortunately that's generally the modus operandi of any overly large company. (Note: I would never wish anyone to get hurt.)
JaneYoung
03-05-2012, 22:26
This, so much of this.
I would have gladly given up my spot in the stands for her to scout, if it meant my friend could feel like she was part of the team and part of the stands.
It should never have had to come to that. The scouters were in the wrong from the outset. The space was rightfully Ria's. Period.
Jane
JaneYoung
03-05-2012, 22:37
Perhaps someone needs to be seriously hurt jumping out of the way of someone yelling 'robot' for FIRST to take notice, in the same manner that the FMS issues were brushed off until something catastrophic happened. Unfortunately that's generally the modus operandi of any overly large company. (Note: I would never wish anyone to get hurt.)
If someone in a wheelchair is injured because a robot runs into them or because someone jumps over them in the chair, that is going to gain FIRST a lot of bad publicity.
If someone has their cane knocked out from under them and they fall and are injured, that is going to cause FIRST a lot of bad publicity.
If teams refuse to move out of a handicapped zone, this is not good PR. If teams refuse to move out of a handicapped zone for a person who requires the use of it, this is really bad PR. I'd love for the team that did that to be recognized for their actions. Recognition is a valuable asset to FIRST and to the teams seeking it. Bad recognition can cause a world of hurt for a team. Sometimes, they deserve it.
Jane
catsylve
04-05-2012, 02:42
So I roll away from my computer for a few hours and come back and look what Jane is up to!;)
First, I'd like to say thank you my friend for being so kind and no I was not hurt, but I did find myself a bit intimidated at times. (my regular chair was in the shop and I was working with a very unwieldy scooter).
I am indeed fortunate that I can move around with a cane, but many people cannot and yes, the handicapped seating was a huge problem. At one point, I had to bring some of the students on my own team to task for taking them for scouting.
I think the part that bothered me the most though, was the yelling of robot. Students need to be taught that this was originally started as a safety measure, not a way of getting the right of way and travelling at full speed to the field. There were times it was downright scary, and not just for someone who is handicapped. ANYONE could have been mowed down and that is just not what we are about.
I would also like to say thank you though to the large number of people who did stop elevators, ask people to move, stopped traffic or volunteer to help me. Like it or not, when working with young people, we are always teaching them things they have not yet experienced. ::safety::
Oh, and by the way, thank you so much to Jerry and Bill for getting me my own special "Miller Pass" so I could continue to coach my team and didn't miss every match while waiting for elevators. I will treasure it always!
When I was in the pits on Thursday, and I admit standing in the way in the aisle, a student did say - politely and not too loudly - "watch out, robot coming through". This is the way it should be done, to alert people like me who are legitimately in the way. (But I was wearing a B&W striped shirt and students are more nicer to me when I do :D )
In general I think FIRST people are more polite on the whole than the general public. I've been at many events where the staff remarked how the students are better behaved than at other events - most recently at Temple for the MAR Champs. But, as mentioned already, this is indicative of society in general which is ruder and more egotistic than in the past - do you ever read blogs other than CD? The attitudes and language are appalling.
But maybe I'm just a cranky old woman.
DampRobot
04-05-2012, 09:43
Although we all like to think that FIRST is special in regard to the standard it holds its participants to, it really isn't. Almost all sports and activities support respect, service, responsibility, etc. in varying degrees. The only special thing in FIRST is what we call it: Gracious Profesionalism and Coopertition.
The simple fact is that the behavior described on this thread is not acceptable anywhere.
I suppose what a lot of people are referencing is the "good old days" when "everyone" understood how to behave at an event. Because of the rapid growth of the FIRST community (and Chief Delphi), the original feel of an exclusive organisation is lost and replaced by a more mainstream feel. FRC is no longer a handful of teams and students who deeply care about growing FIRST and its high standards. There are simply too many people not to have a few who don't represent FIRST positively.
Is this behavior acceptable? Of course not. Is it understandable, given the growth FIRST has experienced? I think so.
techhelpbb
04-05-2012, 10:15
These problems extend into the intellectual world as well. Combative intellectualism is not often productive or functional. Usually all that ends up happening is one intelligent person degrades the other and everyone is the worse for it (everyone makes errors, poke fun, have a little laugh and move on or the error you are making is forgetting the value of your sparing partner...that's not so funny). No physical competition or contact is required.
Combative intellectualism is all over the Internet and between the physical awkwardness of the competition, the demands on time, the sometimes unclear directions. It's little surprise this sort of impolite behavior exists.
The idea of high speed texting, brief, sometimes ambiguous messages on complicated subjects only magnifies the problem. Sure it does help compensate for inadequate interfaces for communications but in the end it cheapens the message by not giving it the authority or longevity sometimes the message deserves. The bigger and more important the message is, the more likely the issue that the message won't leave the desired original impact as it moves out to the fringes of your community hidden behind search engines of various functionality and differences of context.
We all just need to remember as the world gets 'smaller' the good and the harm we can do gets bigger. Sometimes we can't help that, so we should work extra hard when we can help it.
Completely agreed, one of my biggest peeves. The entire season, when someone yelled "Robot" I would yell back "Human" and stand my ground. If they made eye contact, I would explain that Humans have priority over Robots, and if they would just say "Excuse me please" I'd move.
Best was the girl in Team 2557's pit in Archimedes who would yell "Robot" loudly any time she SAW a robot. ANY robot. From her seat in the pit. :rolleyes:
Back to the original post: Those folks would be well-served by spending 2 days in a wheelchair. It is a real eye-opener.
I'm sorry that you feel our team has done something wrong, please understand... we meant absolutely no offense by it whatsoever. The regional that we came from, the Olympic regional in Washington State, instructed us to use this method as a crowd clearer.
Things are a might bit different in St. Louis than on the west coast. And we will attempt to implement the suggested changes should we make it to finals next year.
Thanks for the suggestion.
nsrouji95
06-05-2012, 16:56
Such behavior is absolutely shocking to me. I can't believe that some people who be so ignorant as to do that.
I really hope that those people who did that see this thread, because it is simply unacceptable. I hope that something like this does not happen again to Cat or to anyone.
Gracious professionalism and understanding should be shown on and off the field at competitions and anywhere else. In no situation is it acceptable for FIRST values to be simply ignored for any moment in time.
Wayne Doenges
06-05-2012, 17:21
One thing that would help the crowding of the aisles would be to not stand in them when you are talking to others. I lost count of how many times I had to go around a group of people (students and adults alike) who were standing in the middle of the aisle and just talking. If you need to stop, move over to the side and let people by.
Also, why does the WHOLE team need to be at the pit. If you don't need to be there move somewhere else.
Thank you
This has been a Public Service Announcement :D
* I will now quiently move over to the side and let people pass *
My wheel chair story. Last year at SVR I was made to go all the way around the building because the door I was standing next to was for VIPs only. When ask where the elevator was I was told there wasn't one. I informed them that according ADA they had to have one. TI was then told where it was. They knew all the time.
Completely agreed, one of my biggest peeves. The entire season, when someone yelled "Robot" I would yell back "Human" and stand my ground.
I knew I like you, Don. I've been yelling "Person" instead of "Human," but I like yours better. I'll change for next season. :D
One thing that would help the crowding of the aisles would be to not stand in them when you are talking to others. I lost count of how many times I had to go around a group of people (students and adults alike) who were standing in the middle of the aisle and just talking. If you need to stop, move over to the side and let people by.
Also, why does the WHOLE team need to be at the pit. If you don't need to be there move somewhere else.
Thank you
This has been a Public Service Announcement :D
* I will now quiently move over to the side and let people pass *
Maybe they should have a general limit on the number of people allowed in your pit area at any one time, like at the world champs on the first day?
"FIRST is about changing the culture." Unfortunately, many people believe that the culture that needs changing is the "nerds are uncool outcasts to be shunned until you need them". That change is well on its way.
The culture that needs to be changed is "my/our needs are more important than your/their needs". It is the "win at all costs" attitude that we need to be careful of - and yes, leaping over barriers, saving seats in the stands, being rude to the volunteer who is looking out for your safety are all just as bad as using an illegal motor on the robot. Many teams put a great deal of emphasis on the latter and not enough on the former.
- Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox
I really like your observation, Mr. Van. This is perhaps the time to take advantage of a 'teachable moment' in order to grow and to have an impact. Each FIRST team has an opportunity to formulate their own set of values and infuse them into the team culture. That strong value system, lived and breathed, will allow that team to then influence those they come in contact with. My team is not perfect, and I am not even close, so it really helps us to revisit those values week-by-week, and day-by-day, to keep them on our radar.
I knew I like you, Don. I've been yelling "Person" instead of "Human," but I like yours better. I'll change for next season. :D
With all due respect you are just contributing to part of the problem.
The goal is not to see who has the better yell.
Changing the culture is not something that can be changed overnight without knowing what is driving the behaviors. Many of the comments mentioned the "win at all cost" mentality, and I don't think that will ever change until there is a change on the cost structure of the program.
When you have such a high level of resources committed to something, obviously success becomes key. When you have companies investing millions of dollars and mentors investing hundreds of hours on teams, the behavior that will be rewarded will be the behaviors that will get the team to win.
If you want a program to be like a "business" or a "sport" you will have winners and losers, and when you have that, you will have non-sportsmanship behavior.
I think we should have a limit of how much a given organization can give and how much time a volunteer can give. Setting a limit would allow the teams to have a much more collaborative and community engagement focused culture.
Cheers,
Marcos.
Tristan Lall
11-05-2012, 17:10
Changing the culture is not something that can be changed overnight without knowing what is driving the behaviors. Many of the comments mentioned the "win at all cost" mentality, and I don't think that will ever change until there is a change on the cost structure of the program.
When you have such a high level of resources committed to something, obviously success becomes key. When you have companies investing millions of dollars and mentors investing hundreds of hours on teams, the behavior that will be rewarded will be the behaviors that will get the team to win.
If you want a program to be like a "business" or a "sport" you will have winners and losers, and when you have that, you will have non-sportsmanship behavior.
I think we should have a limit of how much a given organization can give and how much time a volunteer can give. Setting a limit would allow the teams to have a much more collaborative and community engagement focused culture.
Any thoughts on a mechanism to encourage sponsors/volunteers to reach (but not exceed) that threshold? Would you use incentives and/or penalties to try to encourage that behaviour? (Or do you have any alternative structures that might accomplish the same thing?)
I have seen some companies provide money to the team up to a certain amount, depending how many hours the mentor volunteer. Example would be up to $500 for every 25 hours of volunteer ($250 each).
Professionals organizations that has formed an outreach arm, give an amount such as $100 to $500 for each member mentor.
The key is that it is a "matching" and not a incentive/penalty that has a limit and the behavior will settle normally.
We should not be providing an incentive for something that should be a volunteering activity, rather it is a "matching benefit" for a behavior that would have happened anyway.
Also it needs to be an amount that an organization, can give to many teams that are eligible applies for. If there is a professional organization with 100 members, and 10 members apply to get the grant, all 10 should get the grant. If the budget is $1000, everybody gets $100.
It is more an act of saying "thank you", and the behavior will continue. In the case of the "glass giving volunteer", that's a very thankless job, and if someone is doing year after year, they are probably going to get burn out and "appalling behavior" will happen. Either require EVERY volunteer that first start with the organization to do one slot, and one slot only, or make it a paid position.
Cheers,
Marcos.
JaneYoung
11-05-2012, 21:53
It is more an act of saying "thank you", and the behavior will continue. In the case of the "glass giving volunteer", that's a very thankless job, and if someone is doing year after year, they are probably going to get burn out and "appalling behavior" will happen. Either require EVERY volunteer that first start with the organization to do one slot, and one slot only, or make it a paid position.
This thread is about a wheelchair that is run into by a robot and jumped over by people and and a cane that is knocked out from under the person using it. The safety glasses volunteer discussion belongs in the other thread. If you have suggestions about paying positions in place of volunteers, please put those suggestions in that thread, too.
Jane
jman4747
03-08-2013, 01:33
First of all I don't know how people feel about reviveing old threads but if one diserved it than this is it. Second to the topic at hand, we must remember that this community is constantly growing and just because the description of gratuitous professionalism is posted under the about us section of the FIRST webste dosn't mean every new student will read it. The way I see it FIRST is like hot water on a stove. If you add a drop of cold water t the pot every minute it's going to stay the same temperature, but when you pour a gallon in all at once it's going to cool down in an instant. If we want to maintain our temperature that is maintain or Gracious Professionalism culture with this growth we and FIRST need turn up the heat. We can't change the culture if it changes us. As for the wheelchair incidents, people especially the disabled always have the right of way. To disregard this just because you have a machine on a cart or any other reason is highly deplorable and ignorant.
DELurker
03-08-2013, 12:06
First of all I don't know how people feel about reviveing old threads but if one diserved it than this is it.
Necro-ing posts from 15 months ago probably isn't the way to go. A (possibly) better way would be to start a new thread asking if things have improved while including a link to the previous thread.
As for what became the core element to the thread, yes, it was deplorably terrible behavior. Karma, Golden Rule, etc all describe the concept that you will eventually be in the other person's shoes. Being rude, discourteous, or inconsiderate towards people who maybe move slower than you, have balance issues, have mobility issues ... all negative behavior there is unacceptable.
However, this needs to be addressed from the coaches, the mentors, the parents, and the team leadership. No matter how exciting FIRST is, no matter what the deadline might be, slowing down to be courteous can never be a bad thing.
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