[FTC]: FTC 2011 - 2012 Reflection and 2012 - 2013 Speculation

[TRWSHSHLX]

Hey all,

Since the old thread was brought up, I didn't want to hijack it to talk about the upcoming season. I won't be participating in it as a student team member since I'm off to college but nevertheless it's fun and important for both the community and whoever views this thread from FIRST to see what can be improved and lastly, GUESSING NEXT YEAR'S CHALLENGE.

A few reflection questions to start off the discussion:
1. What did you think of this year's game - what did you like about it and what did you not like about it?
2. What did you think about other components of FTC that's not related to the game? Questions, comments, concerns?
3. What would you have done differently, what would you keep for future seasons?
4. How do you think rookie and veteran teams will utilize the new building system MATRIX?
5. What elements do you think will be involved in next year's game?

Any other question comments concerns would be appreciated too.

For me, the game itself was awesome as it really showed off what the MOTORS can do. However, it also showed off a few disadvantages of the TETRIX structure system - not exactly "efficient" when compared to custom aluminum square tubing, other custom materials, etc.

THANK YOU GDC to let us use all the custom materials. ALL THOSE LIFTS WOULD HAVE BEEN EXTREMELY DIFFICULT WITHOUT THEM and I believe the more compact 1/2 in. square tubing really let teams compact their designs.

Maybe the GDC didn't anticipate the lifts being that tall as at the end, nothing else really mattered but lifting the crates. Is it possible for them to make a revision during midseason to balance the game out a bit more? I know it will upset a lot of teams but at least give the other teams a chance... There are amazing teams that can go through and find all the magnetic balls but they can only score 100 points at most because of the size of the holder and by lifting one crate six feet tall can outscore all that work. I do appreciate the variety of tasks that can be accomplished to make the challenge accessible by rookies but maybe change that a bit more so more rookies can participate even more?

Samantha was improved, thank you. Yet there are instances that it fails, and I'm not talking about rookies, but veterans at world championship elimination rounds. FTC is significantly smaller than FRC but is that fair for teams that had no problem for the whole season and something "intangible" or "bad luck" prevent them from having a fair shot? I understand nothing is perfect and I encourage the whole FCS system updating and improving process to be like the FRC one so the whole community knows what's going on and have input on it.

Again, thank you for the improvement and please continue doing what you are doing.

[pantherbots4990]

I said in the other thread that I have been to an FTC competition since the 1st year we used the tetrix system, the one thing i have not seen in FTC that I have seen in every other form of FIRST, is the end game challenge of lifting your alliance members robot. I don't know if we will see this but it would not surprise me!

Pantherbots Team Captain
Jordon

[Barry Bonzack]

I'll throw in my 2 cents a bit later, as this was my favorite FTC year, and my favorite Championship event ever.

I would like to mention though that a serious topic "what did you like/dislike, what improvements should be made" should be in a seperate thread from the silliness of a "guess next year's watergame" thread.

[Barry Bonzack]

my responses in blue

1. What did you think of this year's game - what did you like about it and what did you not like about it?
This has been my second favorite game, next to Hot Shot. Downfall of both games is there is one scoring element that completely overpowers all other strategies, often making the end game the only thing that matters, and the other 2 minutes seem like wasted time.


2. What did you think about other components of FTC that's not related to the game? I love the FTC program. I love that teams can host competitions in their own gym, which provides a "home game" feel that can not be accomplished in FRC without a districts system.


3. What would you have done differently, what would you keep for future seasons? Autonomous mode scoring. If I were designing a game, I would not give the referees any major decisions they have to make after autonomous mode ends. FRC game Rebound Rumble did an excellent job of keeping the game fast paced, and the transition between Hybrid to Teleop quick, and I would model future FTC games to do the same.




Maybe the GDC didn't anticipate the lifts being that tall as at the end, nothing else really mattered but lifting the crates. Is it possible for them to make a revision during midseason to balance the game out a bit more? I know it will upset a lot of teams but at least give the other teams a chance...

Ha, you ask "is it possible..." is there anything that isn't possible? They are the GDC, they can walk on water. The FRC GDC stated in their 2010 rules that they reserved the right to change the rules at any point, and of course send weekly rule updates. But do we really want them drastically changing the scoring after the robots are complete and the competition is underway? All teams started with the same rules. Those that found the best strategies to maximize points planned their entire build season around those strategies. Those teams that thought in early fall "what if we built a 12 foot lift" took serious design risks, and were rewarded for their efforts if they were able to pull it off.

Lesson learned for the GDC: if you ever give students the possibility for an unlimited scoring potential, then expect the entire game to be about the teams that can do that one element the very best, because they will accomplish it beyond your wildest dreams.

Lesson learned 2: If you give students unlimited scoring potential, brainstorm if that could unleash unintended safety hazards (http://georgemarchant.zenfolio.com/2012firstchampionship/h2912b256#h2912b256).

I think it is obvious the GDC did not anticipate (http://georgemarchant.zenfolio.com/2012firstchampionship/h333b0644#h333b0644) lifts (http://georgemarchant.zenfolio.com/2012firstchampionship/h5585326#h5585326) like (http://georgemarchant.zenfolio.com/2012firstchampionship/h189e1781#h189e1781) we (http://georgemarchant.zenfolio.com/2012firstchampionship/h1317d1ba#h1317d1ba) saw (http://georgemarchant.zenfolio.com/2012firstchampionship/h232a7538#h232a7538) in (http://georgemarchant.zenfolio.com/2012firstchampionship/h2e1b40db#h2e1b40db) St. Louis. (http://georgemarchant.zenfolio.com/2012firstchampionship/h1c2fcdb6#h1c2fcdb6)
If they had, I doubt the kickoff video would have spent so much time focusing on stacking crates, and the magnet ball would have been worth more than 25 points.


Samantha was improved, thank you. Yet there are instances that it fails, and I'm not talking about rookies, but veterans at world championship elimination rounds.

I do not know exactly what the FTC crew does to fix these problems, and when they try to explain it to me it goes right over my head because i'm not an engineer. What I can promise you is that they are also frustrated, and do work tirelessly to fix them.

I was talking with <namedrop not mentioned> during the finals match you are referring to. With disappointment he stated something along the lines that they have been working tirelessly to get these issues resolved, and he knows that everyone gets upset when robots lose connection. However, there are so many components that make a robot go, and so many systems that all must work together, that it is nearly impossible to create a perfect competition where robots do not lose connection with the resources they have available. These words echoed in my head the day after during the finals of FRC.

This isn't NASA. If we want to have inexpensive kits, then we can't expect all robots to work 100% of the time.

[VashonRobotics]

Regarding changing the rules midway - absolutely not! Sure clarify them, tweak them to correct an unforeseen effect, but midway major changes, no way. We all know the teams strategize, plan, and design to the released rules and to change them midstream would just breed frustration. I do think that the games need to have multiple ways to practically achieve a solid score in competition.

Regarding the Tetrix system and the use of non-kit parts like aluminum square tubing or channel; awesome! I think that the rules need to include more possibilities with materials, electronics, etc. I don't exactly understand limiting to what is used except for safety reasons. If it was more open then materials could be used from a variety of sources and likely cost less.

I might be opening a can of worms here but sometimes I get the feeling that when limiting the parts to one and only one source (i.e. servos from Tetrix - can also be purchased elsewhere) serves someone else and not the participants, their sponsors and the ultimate goal of the entire affair. Sure it needs to be reasonable and not let a few teams with huge amounts of money (and there are not many) get an advantage over other teams by the fact that they do have the funds.

I think open the doors and let a bunch more parts sources and type of parts in. For instance with the access to 3D printers growing - allow printed ABS parts. Definitely do not roll back the materials allowed so far. How about cameras, GPS, clutches, wheels, etc.? (what else do you think?)

[jcarr]

My experience is that the wider the allowed parts, the more expensive the robot can get. That means that the better funded teams will have a significant advantage. Limiting the parts to Tetrix, while paying a premium, you limit the potential expenses of stocking a wider variety of parts. Now that they are adding Matrix, it will get that much more expensive to run a team.

[Andrew Schuetze]

How does a second vender offering a similar set of basic parts make it more expensive? What is the advantage of a Tetrix angle beam to a Matrix angle beam that you have to own both? Now, I can see that if one vender has a unique or useful part as compared to the other then I might want to buy that part but if Tetrix comes out with a new part I might have the same desire...

[Andi13]

What ddo you think would be the best way to lift an alliance member? Also, do you have any tips on a small, efficient way to lift rings that are taller or the same size as the robot?