To Disney or not to Disney... that is the question

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Posted by Andy Baker.

Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 4/18/2000 11:02 PM MST



Every year, there are discussions about whether FIRST should have the Nationals at Disney or not.

Here are some factors (I'll post my opinion later) that poses Disney as positives and negatives... you all know that we cannot have a decision without viewing all of the positives and negatives... right?

So, we'll do this thread-style. I'll reply with a 'positives' and a 'negatives' thread. Also I'll start an 'possible alternatives' thread.

This should liven things up a bit.

Andy B.

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Posted by Andy Baker.

Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 4/18/2000 11:12 PM MST


In Reply to: To Disney or not to Disney... that is the question posted by Andy Baker on 4/18/2000 11:02 PM MST:



Here are some positives (I'm sure that you will have others).

1. Fun things to do during day before and/or after Competition.
2. Fun things to do in the evening of Competition.
3. Good transportation (as long as your team stays on Disney property).
4. Good security.
5. Incentive and attraction to some students and teams who do not get opportunity to ever go to Disney.
6. Good weather.
7. Florida for spring break... everyone else is doing it, so why can't we?
8. Field location right next to Epcot... enhancing the 'inspiration'.
9. Plenty of hotels (including Orlando area).
10. Disney's willingness to provide huge temporary faciltiy.

...others?

Andy B.

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Posted by Lewis Sussman.

Coach on team #95, Lebanon Robotics Team, from Lebanon, NH, Hanover, NH & Hartford, VT and CRREL & CREARE.

Posted on 4/19/2000 6:52 AM MST


In Reply to: Nationals at Disney - Positives posted by Andy Baker on 4/18/2000 11:12 PM MST:



As a first timer at the Nationals, I'll give you my impressions. Whatever else you might say about Disney, NOBODY manages the logistics of large crowds of people better than they do. I doubt you will find a better venue for such an event anywhere else. For example, at the wrap party, despite the fact that something like fourteen thousand people descended on Epcot en mass, I was eating chicken and drinking lemonade less than fifteen minutes after walking through the gates. This was much better service than any restauraunt in Orlando I had eaten in. Amazing. Aside from the fine logistics, I see nothing wrong in having Disney's (and Florida's) glamour associated with the Nationals as an added incentive for kids to get involved. Every time I told someone about it, teen or adult, the reaction was 'wow, what a great idea, and it's wonderful that anyone can get to go!' As far as the expense is concerned, unless you can drive, the cost is about the same no matter where you go. It cost us the same to stay in New Brunswick as it did to stay in Orlando, off site, except for transportation, which would be the same anywhere. Airfare to Florida tends to be cheaper than most other places in the US because of the high traffic. It would cost us more, probably, to go to Atlanta. The weather is definitely a pleasant addition, not to be underestimated, especially for those of us from the far North, facing another month of miserable weather in April. The only changes I'd like to see at the competition itself would be more reasonably priced drinks (2.50 for a cup of frozen soda half of which is CO2 seems excessive), and perhaps more seating at the smaller arenas.

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Posted by Bill Beatty.

Other on team #71, Team Hammond, from Team Hammond.

Posted on 4/19/2000 8:17 AM MST


In Reply to: Nationals at Disney - Positives posted by Andy Baker on 4/18/2000 11:12 PM MST:



Safety, entertainment and semi-control for 15,000 teenagers!

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Posted by Ryan Shanley.

Student on team #191, The X-Cats, from Joseph C. Wilson Magnet High School and Xerox.

Posted on 4/19/2000 10:56 AM MST


In Reply to: Nationals at Disney - Positives posted by Andy Baker on 4/18/2000 11:12 PM MST:



I think you hit a important point when you mentioned the hotel situation at Disney. I dare say there is no other venue in the whole country that has as many hotels and resorts in and around it. There were probably around 21,000 people staying in Orlando at once this year, and resorts were booked in (literally) an hour or two after they were opened to FIRST reservations this year. Good luck finding another are with room to house that many people for a spring weekend.

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Posted by Nate Smith.

Other on team #66, GM Powertrain/Willow Run HS, from Eastern Michigan University and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 4/19/2000 3:08 PM MST


In Reply to: Nationals at Disney - Positives posted by Andy Baker on 4/18/2000 11:12 PM MST:



---This is a post that I made back in September...i'd say it still applies---

One thing you have to consider about having disney be only our accomodations for the National competition is the exposure that the Competition itself gets by being in Epcot's parking lot...during the little bit of time that I wasn't at the arenas this past year, as I was wandering around WDW in full team gear(t-shirt loaded with pins, hat, etc), I had quite a few people ask me what all the pins represented, which allowed me to get into a discussion with them about the Competition itself...a few of them even said that they would stop by and take a look for themselves...
So, while Disney may be great as a recreational escape during down time, having everything on-site also helps to promote the competition in general...just imagine how many people saw the event taking place, especially from the monorail. How would we get even close to that much publicity as a Competition having the event at a 'less-travelled' site?

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Posted by Bethany Dunning.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #349, RoBahamas, from International Academy and Ford Motor Company.

Posted on 4/20/2000 6:22 AM MST


In Reply to: Going Wayyy Back... posted by Nate Smith on 4/19/2000 3:08 PM MST:



: ---This is a post that I made back in September...i'd say it still applies---

: ...just imagine how many people saw the event taking place, especially from the monorail. How would we get even close to that much publicity as a Competition having the event at a 'less-travelled' site?

But... how many people actually were curious enough to stop and figure out exactly what was going on down there in the parking lot? I know that if I was down there with my family, shuttling my kids from Epcot to Magic Kingdom with only a few days to see everything in the state of Florida, it would be hard for curiosity to get the better of me and go down there and investigate the brightly coloured flags. I do think Disney could do a better job of promoting. All those flyers that hotels put out with 'What's going on at Disney this week' could include FIRST.

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Posted by Nate Smith.

Other on team #66, GM Powertrain/Willow Run HS, from Eastern Michigan University and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 4/20/2000 1:37 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Going Wayyy Back... posted by Bethany Dunning on 4/20/2000 6:22 AM MST:



: But... how many people actually were curious enough to stop and figure out exactly what was going on down there in the parking lot? I know that if I was down there with my family, shuttling my kids from Epcot to Magic Kingdom with only a few days to see everything in the state of Florida, it would be hard for curiosity to get the better of me and go down there and investigate the brightly coloured flags.

While I can't speak for everyone, I can say personally that whenever I've been down to Disney for the competition, I've stopped to check out things a lot smaller...and while I don't think there's any way that we'll know for sure exactly how many of the other guests at WDW are stopping by our 'little' show, I find it hard to believe that with the number of people that passed by those tents each day, a substantial number of them weren't interested enough to stop in and see what was going on. I know that every time I saw the monorail go by Einstein, everybody's eyes in it seemed to be glued down at the arena.

: I do think Disney could do a better job of promoting. All those flyers that hotels put out with 'What's going on at Disney this week' could include FIRST.

Definitely! They are always telling us at opening and closing ceremonies that we are the largest event they host, but we don't get a mention in their flyers, and I haven't seen anything on their web site's 'events this month' list since '98. While something doesn't seem quite right about that, I still appreciate all that they DO put together for us, but there's still a few things that they can improve on...

Nate

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Posted by Matt Leese.

Student on team #7 from Parkville High School and NASA, Black & Decker, AAI, Raytheon.

Posted on 4/24/2000 2:05 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Going Wayyy Back... posted by Nate Smith on 4/20/2000 1:37 PM MST:



FYI, we were listed in Epcot's Park Map for the week (it was on the back). It was neat to see but didn't include too much information about us. Maybe we should get Disney to schedule us as an attraction in the future? We're much better than some of the rides at Disney. :)

Matt Leese

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Posted by Nate Smith.

Other on team #66, GM Powertrain/Willow Run HS, from Eastern Michigan University and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 4/24/2000 3:37 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Going Wayyy Back... posted by Matt Leese on 4/24/2000 2:05 PM MST:



: FYI, we were listed in Epcot's Park Map for the week (it was on the back). It was neat to see but didn't include too much information about us

I guess the fact that I only used one day of my park pass is starting to show...oh well

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Posted by Fran .

Other on team #166, Team Merrimack, from Merrimack High School and Texas Instruments/R.S. Machines.

Posted on 4/21/2000 5:50 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: Going Wayyy Back... posted by Bethany Dunning on 4/20/2000 6:22 AM MST:



Disney did list us in the flyer about 'what's going on this week'.....we had our own section.......but it wasn't listed on the internet calendar..........I was very impressed with the set up at Disney and since it was my first trip to disney, I didn't hesitate to go into the parks from the moment we weren't picked until awards BUT on Friday when our team had a match every hour, we had no trouble staying in the pits or watching rounds( I asked my kids if they wanted to go into Disney and I received a 'no way' from all).
I guess I prefer the regionals because I like seeing all the matches and studying the robots AND I liked the pits better at nationals...it was the very impossibility of watching all matches that depersonalized the event and enabled us to go into disney.

Fran
Techno Insanity
#166



: : ---This is a post that I made back in September...i'd say it still applies---

: : ...just imagine how many people saw the event taking place, especially from the monorail. How would we get even close to that much publicity as a Competition having the event at a 'less-travelled' site?

: But... how many people actually were curious enough to stop and figure out exactly what was going on down there in the parking lot? I know that if I was down there with my family, shuttling my kids from Epcot to Magic Kingdom with only a few days to see everything in the state of Florida, it would be hard for curiosity to get the better of me and go down there and investigate the brightly coloured flags. I do think Disney could do a better job of promoting. All those flyers that hotels put out with 'What's going on at Disney this week' could include FIRST.

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Posted by Ken Patton.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #65, The Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 4/19/2000 4:52 PM MST


In Reply to: Nationals at Disney - Positives posted by Andy Baker on 4/18/2000 11:12 PM MST:




I think the name recognition - 'yeah, we compete at Disney World!' - is the biggest thing going for having the nationals at Disney. It gets the attention of people who otherwise might not care, and some of them are the main target for the I in FIRST.

I have to admit (being a Disney-basher in the past) that the changes they made for the three indoor stages were good - I liked that setup. Now if they continue to improve....

The other plus for having the events at Disney: when we DO get thousands of teams, they can have events at the Disney venue for several weeks in a row - heck, call 'em regionals or qualifiers, so long as we let everyone go to Disney for a competition.

Ken

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Posted by Sam Lindhorst.

Engineer on team #240, Mach Vee, from Jefferson High School and Visteon.

Posted on 4/22/2000 3:24 AM MST


In Reply to: Nationals at Disney - Positives posted by Andy Baker on 4/18/2000 11:12 PM MST:



I should say at the outset that I am not a supporter of FIRST at Disney. I am a supporter of FIRST, period. As long as FIRST's relationship with Disney helps FIRST reach it's goals, I'm for staying with Disney.

: Here are some positives (I'm sure that you will have others).

: 1. Fun things to do during day before and/or after Competition.

Which is true of the Orlando area in general, I might add. And which could also be true other places.

: 2. Fun things to do in the evening of Competition.

Uhh.. your drivers get to bed before 2am?

: 3. Good transportation (as long as your team stays on Disney property).

I wasn't too impressed with even the in-park stuff after taking two tool boxes in.. I don't know what Disney could do better though.

I don't think the majority of teams got in-park this year.

: 4. Good security.

YES!
Great!
Uhh... who we trying to keep out?

(just kidding, I know there's a lot of stuff in the pits, and the VIP's need a little protection..)

: 5. Incentive and attraction to some students and teams who do not get opportunity to ever go to Disney.

True.

: 6. Good weather.

Maybe too hot weather. Maybe three days of rain one year. So far, so good. At least we don't go during hurricane season.

: 7. Florida for spring break... everyone else is doing it, so why can't we?

Man I really pray no FIRST kid ever falls out of a 6th story balcony... :o(

: 8. Field location right next to Epcot... enhancing the 'inspiration'.

Ewww. I used to live in Orlando, and I guess in don't associate 'inspiration' with 'Disney'. Maybe 'huge corporate entity' and 'manipulator of local government'.

: 9. Plenty of hotels (including Orlando area).

Very true. Also true of say, Chicago. Or Kansas City. Or Houston.

: 10. Disney's willingness to provide huge temporary facility.

This I can't say enough about. I'm in awe or their logistics.

: ...others?

: Andy B.

The 'hook' for getting kids to sign up for the teams, despite the fact that the robot construction takes over your life for 6 weeks, is the trip to Florida. This can't be underestimated as a tool for getting the kids involved.

However, the Orange County Convention Center is only a couple of miles away on International Drive, and could handle the whole thing if needed. Same hotels, airfare and still great access to the fun stuff, without saying to the school administrators, 'We're going to Disney World!'. I think they wince when we say that...

Just my 2¢.

OK, 3¢.

Sam

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Posted by Andy Baker.

Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 4/18/2000 11:30 PM MST


In Reply to: To Disney or not to Disney... that is the question posted by Andy Baker on 4/18/2000 11:02 PM MST:



1. Transportation costs... Florida is not centrally located (airline costs vs. long bus rides).
2. High hotel costs, due to the nice facilites of Disney, and the heightened demand of April.
3. Off-Disney property transportation difficulties... limited bus times, options, and simply too far away.
4. Partially used park hopper passes... using a day for simply going to dinner in Epcot is wasteful.
5. Food tickets... no good if staying off Disney property... OK for on property.
6. Disney parks... a distraction to students?
7. Disney parks... a reason for school administrators and corporate middle management to think that all we do is 'play'.
8. The temporary stadium and pit facilites are not as good as alternatives (rentable arena or dome).
9. The playing fields are inferior to most Regional events... due to the temporary setup.
10. That 'small world' song.

...others?

Do you agree, or am I out to lunch?

Andy B.

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Posted by Ryan Shanley.

Student on team #191, The X-Cats, from Joseph C. Wilson Magnet High School and Xerox.

Posted on 4/19/2000 1:00 PM MST


In Reply to: Nationals at Disney - Negatives posted by Andy Baker on 4/18/2000 11:30 PM MST:



Well, it really doesn't grow on trees, and some teams can't go to more than one or two FIRST trips as is, let alone a series or season of regionals, plus the national. We want FIRST to continue growing, not disqualify teams from going before they even start because of expenses. Our team is lucky enough to have a sponsor (Xerox) that pays for our way in full to one regional and the national, but other teams raise money all year to just make it to one competition. We must keep them in mind as we decide the future of the Nationals.
-ryan
(ain't spring break grand?)

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Posted by Ken Patton.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #65, The Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 4/19/2000 5:00 PM MST


In Reply to: Nationals at Disney - Negatives posted by Andy Baker on 4/18/2000 11:30 PM MST:




I agree on the cost issues - we paid a lot this year for rooms and airfares, even though we were on the ball and registered early.

Another negative - and this could be converted into a positive - is that for all the 'bigtime' status of the 'largest non-Disney event at WDW' we get very little promotion of the whole thing by ABC and Disney. It doesn't seem to me that Disney treats it as 'their' event, with high profile Disney/ABC/ESPN promotion of it. When will we see daily promos of the event on ABC and ESPN like they do for other sporting events? When will they do it live on Wide World of Sports?

Ken

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Posted by P.J. Baker.

Engineer on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells.

Posted on 4/19/2000 5:44 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Nationals at Disney - Negatives posted by Ken Patton on 4/19/2000 5:00 PM MST:



: I agree on the cost issues - we paid a lot this year for rooms and airfares, even though we were on the ball and registered early.

It would be really nice if Disney would give us some sort of a break on the pricing. I know that if you book your own trip for the same dates w/o using the 'FIRST' package it is cheaper (no meal tickets) and your park hopper pass never expires (mine still has two days on it that I plan to use next year). I can see why Disney doesn't give us a break though because we are going during the peak season and not spending that much money in the parks, since we're all in the parking lot most of the time. Maybe if the main event were in the fall, before Thanksgiving, they'd cut us a better deal since it's off peak. I'm sure that this would cause some sort of logistical nightmare and we'd lose a lot of football and soccer players, but I sure wouldn't mind doing this in the fall.



: Another negative - and this could be converted into a positive - is that for all the 'bigtime' status of the 'largest non-Disney event at WDW' we get very little promotion of the whole thing by ABC and Disney. It doesn't seem to me that Disney treats it as 'their' event, with high profile Disney/ABC/ESPN promotion of it. When will we see daily promos of the event on ABC and ESPN like they do for other sporting events? When will they do it live on Wide World of Sports?

I really don't understand this! I've come across the national Cheerleading Championships at least three time in the last 2 months on ESPN. This event is also held at WDW. Everytime I pass it on the dial, I wonder why I'm not seeing robots instead.

P.J.

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Posted by Michael Martus.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central H.S. and Delphi Automotives Systems.

Posted on 4/20/2000 4:03 PM MST


In Reply to: Nationals at Disney - Negatives posted by Andy Baker on 4/18/2000 11:30 PM MST:



I agree to all of what you have said.

For the price we pay and lack of park time the cost of the event eats up a large chunk of the budget.

Think of how hard the students work and (in our case) only had two full days in the parks on a 5 day parkhopper pass.

I would rather have say.....the Silverdome in Pontiac. Hey! I hear it is for sale. Dean could buy it as an investment and use as he sees fit.

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Posted by Sam Lindhorst.

Engineer on team #240, Mach Vee, from Jefferson High School and Visteon.

Posted on 4/22/2000 2:38 AM MST


In Reply to: Nationals at Disney - Negatives posted by Andy Baker on 4/18/2000 11:30 PM MST:



Andy, this is a great topic! I especially enjoyed talking to you this week. :o)

: 1. Transportation costs... Florida is not centrally located (airline costs vs. long bus rides).

Out to lunch. Airfare to Orlando is one of the advantages here. Every airline runs specials.

: 2. High hotel costs, due to the nice facilites of Disney, and the heightened demand of April.

Agree, but the costs are due to Disney being in the booking process. Packages can be had for much less.

: 3. Off-Disney property transportation difficulties... limited bus times, options, and simply too far away.

Agree. The solution as I see it is to not to book through Disney, and rent your own transportation. I have a post about this in the 'alternatives' thread.

: 4. Partially used park hopper passes... using a day for simply going to dinner in Epcot is wasteful.

Agree. I think a lot of passes are just getting sold to scalpers, or given away.

: 5. Food tickets... no good if staying off Disney property... OK for on property.

If you want to eat Disney food for 4 days... I'm happier with the selection off-park.

I think $10 for a wiener is... they should wear masks to take your money.

: 6. Disney parks... a distraction to students?

Agree

: 7. Disney parks... a reason for school administrators and corporate middle management to think that all we do is 'play'.

Way agree. In fact I wonder if the Disney trip is the reason a lot of schools aren't in FIRST. If I was a school administrator, I doubt I would want to bring a plan to my board that included a trip to WDW for high school kids.... It's just easier to forget about it.

: 8. The temporary stadium and pit facilites are not as good as alternatives (rentable arena or dome).

Lukewarm agree. But boy did they improve things this year...

: 9. The playing fields are inferior to most Regional events... due to the temporary setup.

I don't think so...

: 10. That 'small world' song.

YEEEEAAAAAHHHHH! WHY did you have to mention that... I took me two weeks to get rid of it last time!

: ...others?

: Do you agree, or am I out to lunch?

: Andy B.

I have this picture in my head of a FIRST field in the Vehicle Assembly Building at Kennedy, with a shuttle hanging from a crane overhead.....

NAH, too ambitous. NASA could never close that building that long. But still cool to think about...

As a couple of people mentioned here, the publicity thing with Disney is pretty much NOT happening. Why, I don't know, because if they wanted to, I'm sure they could a magnificent job of it.

I wonder what more NASA could do for us? They do have their own TV network...

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Posted by Jason Rudolph.

Student on team #168, The Flashbacks, from North Miami Beach Senior High and Velda Farms/FedEx/ETC/HPE Automation.

Posted on 4/22/2000 12:57 PM MST


In Reply to: Nationals at Disney - Negatives posted by Andy Baker on 4/18/2000 11:30 PM MST:



A lot of people have been wondering why Disne does not give FIRST the press it deserves. Well, I know many people who work for disney (the company I work for is one of disneys biggest suppliers), and I know how disney works. Disney is all about making money (evident in their food prices, etc.). Look at all these events hosted at disney that get press, they are inside of the park, so people have to buy a ticket to get into disney to see the event. Now look at our event, we are too big to be inside the park, so we have that wonderful venue set up in the parking lot, so people don't have to buy a ticket to get in, all they need to do is pay for parking. So, disney only mentions it inside the brochures that they give out in the park, so people who have already bought their tickets can go see the competition. I am not 100% positive, but this is quite likely the reason for the lack of press.

Jason

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Posted by Elaine Anselm.

Engineer on team #191, X-Cats, from Jos Wilson High School and Xerox.

Posted on 4/22/2000 6:16 PM MST


In Reply to: Disney Press posted by Jason Rudolph on 4/22/2000 12:57 PM MST:



I think you are right on here. When the FIRST competiton was inside Disney in 95 and 96 there was a great deal moe Disney advertising than there is now. I remember it being listed months ahead on the Disney web site.

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Posted by Lewis Sussman.

Coach on team #95, Lebanon Robotics Team, from Lebanon NH HS, Hanover NH HS, Hartford VT HS and CRREL/CREARE.

Posted on 4/24/2000 1:44 PM MST


In Reply to: Disney Press posted by Jason Rudolph on 4/22/2000 12:57 PM MST:



Say what you will about the lack of publicity on Disney's part, but I was still in awe of what they DO for us. I'm not that upset that they wouldn't actively promote something that would be in direct competition for people who might be visiting Epcot instead of gawking at us. If we want more publicity, WE should do it ourselves, and the best way to do it is through continued growth and gracious professionalism. The media will come to us. Besides, where would we put more people if they did come?

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Posted by Jason Rudolph.

Student on team #168, The Flashbacks, from North Miami Beach Senior High and Velda Farms/FedEx/ETC/HPE Automation.

Posted on 4/24/2000 3:39 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Disney Press posted by Lewis Sussman on 4/24/2000 1:44 PM MST:



I completely agree. I think that what disney does is absolutely fantastic. I was just trying to explain where they are coming from to all the people who have complained about the lack of press coverage.

Jason

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Posted by Matt Leese.

Student on team #7 from Parkville High School and NASA, Black & Decker, AAI, Raytheon.

Posted on 4/24/2000 2:12 PM MST


In Reply to: Disney Press posted by Jason Rudolph on 4/22/2000 12:57 PM MST:



I think Disney gave us pretty good press this year. Did anybody else realize that the reason that ABC News and Goodmorning America were at the competition was because Disney told them to? Remember Disney owns ABC. AFAIK, that's the best national press we've really had to date (correct me if I'm wrong). I don't think we should complain about Disney giving us press.

Matt Leese

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Posted by Andy Baker.

Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 4/18/2000 11:39 PM MST


In Reply to: To Disney or not to Disney... that is the question posted by Andy Baker on 4/18/2000 11:02 PM MST:



Here are some alternatives that I've heard over the years... I'm sure there are others.

1. Limit the 'openness' of Nationals. Turn Regionals into 'qualification tournaments'.
2. Turn the current 3 day competition into two smaller 3 day competitions (back to back weekends).
3. Move the arena location... to a permanent facility (O-rena?) that is better $$ spent for Disney's, FIRST's and our dollar.
4. Move the event location...Atlanta?... or some other centrally located large city.
5. No Nationals ... (did I say that?!?!) and focus more on Regionals.

...others?

So, have at it people... chew on this for a while and let's see what churns out at the end.

Andy B.

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Posted by Andy Grady.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #42, P.A.R.T.S, from Alvirne High School and Daniel Webster College.

Posted on 4/19/2000 9:30 AM MST


In Reply to: Nationals - Alternatives posted by Andy Baker on 4/18/2000 11:39 PM MST:



Just an idea, how about this scenario:
The top 8 teams (or alliances) from each regional will qualify for the national tornement. The rest of the teams will compete in a smaller tornement. (also held at epcot or wherever). The competition expands to 5 days, day 1 will be practice. Days 2 and 3 will be for the smaller tornement, days 4 and 5 will be for the national tornement. At the conclusion of day 5 awards and the team party and stuff will be held for all teams. And why not for the hell of it pit the winner of the smaller tornement vs. the national champions, kinda like the superbowl.

Also for added effect, i loved the idea of the alliance lottery so I say before each regional a lottery is held. The teams stick together for the duration of the competition. Then the top 8 teams move on to the nationals together as a team, to see how they fare against other teams. This could get some very interesting matches in, and maybe even solve some age old questions like who is tougher, the New England teams or the Midwest teams and so on. So now teams could battle for local pride also =)

Just a thought

Andy Grady, DWC/Alvirne HS, Team 42

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Posted by Ryan Shanley.

Student on team #191, The X-Cats, from Joseph C. Wilson Magnet High School and Xerox.

Posted on 4/19/2000 10:42 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: Nationals - Alternatives posted by Andy Grady on 4/19/2000 9:30 AM MST:



Regarding the thought on a lottery, I wouldn't like to spend my senior year building a really good robot, then get stuck with a not-so-good ally for the whole tournament, and not do as well as we could.
And the other possible flaw is that a five day national would be out of many teams' price ranges, especially those that couldn't make it to (or barely made it to) this year's three-day nationals. I know a lot of teams can't go to regionals or can only go to regionals (and not nationals) because the expense is already so great.

...but, just throwing out thoughts. It's definitely a good thing to be brainstorming on this

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Posted by jack.

Student on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro.

Posted on 4/19/2000 12:17 PM MST


In Reply to: Nationals - Alternatives posted by Andy Baker on 4/18/2000 11:39 PM MST:



instead of limiting what teams qualify for the nationals why don't we make it into a season. the reionals would be like regular season games, and as you go to the nationals start the playoffs, this way you could make conferences like midwest, and northeast. that way everybody has a fair chance, and it could also be double or whatever elimination that way if you get beet once it doesn't decide your fate, also for the rookie teams you have the possibility of wild card. so basically i'm saying break it down like any normal sports league make conferences and have teams seed in the regionals and procede to the playoffs. like a normal season

[archiver]

Posted by Chris Dibble.

Student on team #102, Dexterous Gearheads, from Somerville High School and Ortho Clinical Diagnostics.

Posted on 4/19/2000 7:06 PM MST


In Reply to: Nationals - Alternatives posted by Andy Baker on 4/18/2000 11:39 PM MST:



: 1. Limit the 'openness' of Nationals. Turn Regionals into 'qualification tournaments'.

I have thought of that alternative, but I believe it is not in the spirit of FIRST- what i mean is that most of the emphasis in the national is not placed on the winner of the robotics competition, but on the winner of the Chairman's Award, which has nothing really to do with building a robot. FIRST is about teamwork and real-life education, not competition. But, I'm not saying it is not a competitive event.

: 4. Move the event location...Atlanta?... or some other centrally located large city.

That's not a bad idea I must say. But there's something about Epcot that is different than anywhere else.

: 5. No Nationals ... (did I say that?!?!) and focus more on Regionals.

I dont' really think that's a good idea. The nationals is good way to see what people all across the country are doing.


Just my 2 cents.. tell me what you think.

[archiver]

Posted by Sam Lindhorst.

Engineer on team #240, Mach Vee, from Jefferson High School and Visteon.

Posted on 4/22/2000 2:10 AM MST


In Reply to: Nationals - Alternatives posted by Andy Baker on 4/18/2000 11:39 PM MST:



Right now alternatives for teams:

Book you own rooms on International Drive without going through Disney and save a bunch. Rent 15 passenger vans for team transportation. Bring your own lunch. If you have an afternoon off, go to Kennedy Space center, it's an hour away. You can go to Disney with a single park ticket, or Universal or Sea World for less. Eat dinner on International Drive or 192 and get better food, more food, cheaper food, or maybe all three. You have more options (hot? Wet n' Wild!), access to those places you might need anyway (Home Depot, Disney have a bus going there?), and freedom to stay as late, come as early as needed.

I went early this year and spent a little time looking around Kissimmee and Orlando before the competition. so I was oriented. We stayed off-park, and I not only don't regret it, but you will have a hard time convincing me to ever stay in Disney again. International Drive is great, I never had a meal that wasn't very good in a week there, despite trying everything from Buddy's Bar-B-Que to Landry''s to a family owned Chinese buffet. And when we needed something, anything could be bought in a 10 minute radius.

I thought last year that the teams that stayed off-park did better at team presence in the pits. We were certainly better this year, than when we were on-park last year. Although this year our team booked through Disney, I am recommending we book-it-ourselves next year. I bet we save half.

Sam

: Here are some alternatives that I've heard over the years... I'm sure there are others.

: 1. Limit the 'openness' of Nationals. Turn Regionals into 'qualification tournaments'.
: 2. Turn the current 3 day competition into two smaller 3 day competitions (back to back weekends).
: 3. Move the arena location... to a permanent facility (O-rena?) that is better $$ spent for Disney's, FIRST's and our dollar.
: 4. Move the event location...Atlanta?... or some other centrally located large city.
: 5. No Nationals ... (did I say that?!?!) and focus more on Regionals.

: ...others?

: So, have at it people... chew on this for a while and let's see what churns out at the end.

: Andy B.