Scouting using tablets

[chmconkling]

We are trying to get away from using paper, and trying to see how other teams are doing it. Were looking at updating something by using 6 tablets. Any suggestions??

[dcarr]

If you don't plan on utilizing an existing scouting system or creating your own, Google Drive/Docs can be very effective (in terms of collecting data through forms that feed into spreadsheets, tallying data in spreedsheets, cataloging photos, etc.). Also, the Android and iOS apps work offline, allowing changes and new items to be synced once connectivity to become available.

[Ed Law]

We are going to 6 tablets this year after 4 years of paper scouting and one laptop entering data in the stand.

Here are the pros and cons of using tablets.

Pro:
1) Error checking can be built into the program
2) Save money and trees not having to make so many scouting sheets each year
3) Do not have to decipher bad handwriting
4) Eliminate error in entering wrong team number, match number etc.
5) Faster transmission of scouting data to drive coach
6) Easier to do pit scouting and transmitting data
7) More fun when collecting data

Con:
1) Initial cost of 6 tablets
2) Expensive to replace if somebody drops it
3) Effort and knowledge needed to develop the app

I think the advantage is worth the cost as long as you are making full use of the potential of using tablets. We do not like to rely on internet access to do our scouting. Good luck to your scouting team this year.

[F22Rapture]

If you don't plan on utilizing an existing scouting system or creating your own, Google Drive/Docs can be very effective (in terms of collecting data through forms that feed into spreadsheets, tallying data in spreedsheets, cataloging photos, etc.). Also, the Android and iOS apps work offline, allowing changes and new items to be synced once connectivity to become available.

Correct me if I'm wrong because I've never used the Google apps in this context, but if you have more than one scout editing offline documents at any one time wouldn't that overwrite the changes of one of the scouts when they finally do sync up?

[dcarr]

We are going to 6 tablets this year after 4 years of paper scouting and one laptop entering data in the stand.

Here are the pros and cons of using tablets.

Pro:
1) Error checking can be built into the program
2) Save money and trees not having to make so many scouting sheets each year
3) Do not have to decipher bad handwriting
4) Eliminate error in entering wrong team number, match number etc.
5) Faster transmission of scouting data to drive coach
6) Easier to do pit scouting and transmitting data
7) More fun when collecting data

Con:
1) Initial cost of 6 tablets
2) Expensive to replace if somebody drops it
3) Effort and knowledge needed to develop the app

I think the advantage is worth the cost as long as you are making full use of the potential of using tablets. We do not like to rely on internet access to do our scouting. Good luck to your scouting team this year.

Very good points. Will you be developing (or have you already developed) your own scouting system?

[Ed Law]

Very good points. Will you be developing (or have you already developed) your own scouting system?
We are in the process of developing our own. I have looked at other team's but there isn't one available that fits the way we do scouting.

[hiyou102]

I made an app for Android for scouting that can be found here: http://goo.gl/6gKom

It uses Google Fusion Tables to send data from the device to the web. It's in beta right now and should be done by build season. When the game is unveiled it will update it to send the necessary fields. I strongly recommend that you try it out before build season to see if it's right for you. If you would like for me to add a feature or change something contact me at the developers email address listed.

[dellagd]

Our team is currently working to port our completely live laptop based scouting system to tablets, mostly for increasing the portability overall by getting rid of wired connections and just by using tablets.

If going tablets though, I agree, do not rely on the internet, so you would probably have to implement a bluetooth network of some sort.

[chmconkling]

I made an app for Android for scouting that can be found here: http://goo.gl/6gKom

It uses Google Fusion Tables to send data from the device to the web. It's in beta right now and should be done by build season. When the game is unveiled it will update it to send the necessary fields. I strongly recommend that you try it out before build season to see if it's right for you. If you would like for me to add a feature or change something contact me at the developers email address listed.

i will really check this out!! we were looking at using android tablets!!

[hiyou102]

i will really check this out!! we were looking at using android tablets!!
I would like to mention that you don't need necessarily tablets for scouting. We are planning to use the Android phones that members on our team already have.

[dcarr]

I would like to mention that you don't need necessarily tablets for scouting. We are planning to use the Android phones that members on our team already have.

Phones also have their own data connections, which (in most venues) negates the need to worry about a bluetooth/wifi network for scouting. Of course tablets with built in 3G/4G work too but are more costly.

[Dale]

We've used 3G iPads for the last two years for all,of our scouting. Six in the stands and one for the drive coach. Our code is written in PHP and JavaScript and served up,on a we page hosted back at our school. Data is stored in a MySQL database.

Some things we've learned:
1) Never assume your 3G connection will work all the time. The data services can get horribly congested at big venues, especially at championships. You need a system that can deal with its Internet connection being gone for many minutes before reconnecting. AT&T died completely at champs last year as far as data was concerned. We were fine because our iPads just stored up their data and delivered it outside but we would have been hosed otherwise.

2) Previous rules don't allow WiFi in the stands. I assume that rule will continue.

3) Bluetooth isn't designed for a network, just device to device as best we can tell. If someone figures out how to get six iPads connected via Bluetooth to a single router or computer I'd love to hear more about it.

[Tom Line]

Dale, look up "PAN", or Personal Area Network. It's method of connecting multiple devices (including computers) using bluetooth and may fit your needs. It's built into newer versions of windows.

[dcarr]

Dale, look up "PAN", or Personal Area Network. It's method of connecting multiple devices (including computers) using bluetooth and may fit your needs. It's built into newer versions of windows.

Unless it's supported on iOS or Android, I'm not sure it would help a ton in this scenario...unless you are using Windows 8 tablets (ha!). As far as I know, Bluetooth PAN functionality is limited to tethering on Android, and even that requires third-party apps.

[RoboScout]

Last year our FIRST Team 1073 decided to develop a tablet based scouting application to replace the dreaded paper sheets and manually entered spreadsheets. We decided to go the Android route for two reasons: (1) Java is a more broadly applicable language for the students to learn, and (2) the Android tablets were more cost effective than the Apple devices.

We purchased three (budget constraints) Acer 7-inch tablets, along with protective cases and rubber bumpers. These devices have proven to be very reliable and with the cases, all survived several competitions intact. The 7-inch model is a good size, too. This year we hope to purchase additional devices so that we can scout all six teams in a given match. The Acer tablets can be bought for anywhere from $150-$250.

The tablet application itself (actually two apps: one for pit scouting and one for match scouting) is essentially an electronic version of the paper sheets. The apps also allow the scouter to take pictures and video, naming the captured media files according to the team number of the subject. The scouting data itself is saved within the device as a text file, again named according to the team subject. We wrote the app(s) in a general way so that each year, we can develop a new 'sheet' with minimal new development. Ask me next month how we did on that front;-)

There is a central laptop running a data processing application that takes the data from the tablets, parses the information and stores it into a database. From there, we have a series of report generators that apply weights to the collected data attributes, and generate a draft pick-list of prospective alliance partners. The laptop application is written in python and uses SQLite as the database. Recent changes to the data processing application allows us to keep the pick-list up to date in real time, which should be helpful at comp.

Transferring the scouting data off the tablets to the central laptop was a bit of a hassle early on. We didn't have much luck using USB cables to allow the laptop to pull the files directly off the tablets. It was hit or miss on whether it would work properly. We also wanted to use bluetooth, and purchased a software package that ran on both the PC and the tablets, but that turned out not to be very reliable. In the end, we wrote our own bluetooth sync service on the tablets and the PC that transfers the files from the tablets to the PC (think HTTP over bluetooth sockets), triggered by a button on the tablet application. Like other posters indicated, we didn't want to rely on 3G access or the availability of WIFI at comp for our scouting app to work. While bluetooth can be a bit finicky, it has worked pretty well for us, in the configuration where each tablet sync's its data files to the central computer.

This year, we plan to focus our new development on the report generation and information sharing aspects of the overall scouting application. The central laptop application supports a web server that allows anyone with a browser to view the data. We found that particularly useful at our strategy meetings that we hold at night while at comp. Previously, we all needed to huddle around a single machine to look at the data, but now everyone can peruse all the data on their own. But, we need a more refined user interface, and that's where we will focus some energy.

While the application isn't completely ready for prime time, we would like to share what we are doing with other interested teams. Feel free to contact me directly via PM for more info (this post is far toooo long)...

Ken St. (aka RoboScout)
FIRST Team 1073

[Mr. Mike]

Our team went paperless last year. It is defiantly the way to go. The biggest challenge is power for your devices. Each venue is different. A mentor and student leader must approach the proper venue staff and the FTA to make sure everyone is ok with the setup.

Dale,

How did the batteries in the IPads hold up. We were using laptops last year.

[dcarr]

Our team went paperless last year. It is defiantly the way to go. The biggest challenge is power for your devices. Each venue is different. A mentor and student leader must approach the proper venue staff and the FTA to make sure everyone is ok with the setup.

Dale,

How did the batteries in the IPads hold up. We were using laptops last year.

If your rely on nothing other than 3G/4G connections, why would the FTA need to be asked? If the system uses any WiFi access point, I think we already know that's prohibited.

I'm hoping that with 9 hour+ battery life, tablets would be able to do the job (perhaps with a top-off over lunch).

[jlmcmchl]

Our team went paperless last year. It is defiantly the way to go. The biggest challenge is power for your devices. Each venue is different. A mentor and student leader must approach the proper venue staff and the FTA to make sure everyone is ok with the setup.

Dale,

How did the batteries in the IPads hold up. We were using laptops last year.

Last year, Team RUSH used iPads for scouting, and their batteries held up very well, we never had to charge them at the venue. Of course, we charged them overnight at the hotel.

[Dale]

Yep, our batteries on the iPads were generally about 20% at the end of the day. We turn the brightness down, turn off Bluetooth and WiFi, and put them to sleep when there are long breaks in the matches. We also lock them down and hide apps and browsers so our scouts are not tempted to play games between matches (using up battery power and bandwidth.)

We never asked the FTA about using 3G, that's not anywhere close to the spectrum FIRST uses and its use is rampant in the stands anyway.

[Ed Law]

Our team is currently working to port our completely live laptop based scouting system to tablets, mostly for increasing the portability overall by getting rid of wired connections and just by using tablets.

If going tablets though, I agree, do not rely on the internet, so you would probably have to implement a bluetooth network of some sort.

Yes we use bluetooth. The tablets do not need to be all on a network. We have a master tablet and all other tablets transmit data to the master tablet through bluetooth after each match one at a time. The other tablets do not "talk" to each other. The master tablet then transmit data to a laptop whenever it is close by. The data is used in an Excel spreadsheet by coach and drive coach. The Android app is currently being developed by a student on the team.

We like tablets over laptops because tablets can last a whole day without charging but laptops need to be plugged in.

We do not want to rely on the internet because some venues do not get 3G connections.

We considered using Android phone but the screen is too small. You can make it work but it will limit how you scout.

[karomata]

FRC 1511 has been considering using tablets for a scouting system this year, in previous years we used 2 car batteries to power laptops for the entire competition. The largest difficutly we are facing with tablets in the price, power usage without large power source, and how it networks. But another gain to scouting using tablets is that it is easier for the scouters to move around and get better views if nessesary, though a new Ipad mini can go for $300, which not many teams can afford to buy 6 or 7 of.

[F22Rapture]

FRC 1511 has been considering using tablets for a scouting system this year, in previous years we used 2 car batteries to power laptops for the entire competition. The largest difficutly we are facing with tablets in the price, power usage without large power source, and how it networks. But another gain to scouting using tablets is that it is easier for the scouters to move around and get better views if nessesary, though a new Ipad mini can go for $300, which not many teams can afford to buy 6 or 7 of.

I would recommend the Nexus 7 over the iPad mini for this situation. It's $100 cheaper, doesn't require a mac to develop apps for, uses cheap generic USB chargers and has multi-user support, which are all (especially the price) desirable features when it comes to FIRST teams.

[dcarr]

I would recommend the Nexus 7 over the iPad mini for this situation. It's $100 cheaper, doesn't require a mac to develop apps for, uses cheap generic USB chargers and has multi-user support, which are all (especially the price) desirable features when it comes to FIRST teams.

Absolutely true. I love my Nexus 7, for the price it can't be beat. If you are looking at these as team purchases rather than having students bring their own tablets (as some of our members do), the Nexus 7 takes the cake in terms of bang for the buck.

[JohnChristensen]

Ed,

What tablets did your team decide to use for your scouting system?

[Mr. Mike]

Last year we where using laptops. We showed the FTA that we where using 3G and all power cords were not a tripping hazard. At other events we had seen FTAs unplug cords if they where a tripping hazard.

Its good to hear that the tablets can run a full day of scouting.

[Dale]

Some venues don't even allow power cords in the stands except in certain areas. At the Autodesk Oregon Regional, for example, there's no AC except in one tiny area with one seat reserved for each team. Not realistic for normal scouting. We use inverters driven by FRC-class batteries to run our admin's laptops and, of course, iPads.

[Nemo]

We used 7 laptops last year (thanks to 2410 for helping us scout in KC). Six for scouting robots and one for collecting the data. To keep them powered up, we were using a power inverter and robot batteries, and we kept swapping batteries back to the pit to be charged. It was a bit of a hassle, but laptops can be used for more robotics functions than tablets can.

I think it's a lot easier to develop the application on laptops. Last year we used Excel. This year for FTC we have a system that a student wrote using C. We were using USB drives to swap data around last year (a hassle), but this year we're going to try to use a simple 8 port network switch in the stands to streamline that process. I think it will be nice if we get the details right.

Tablets admittedly seem really nice for scouting, because a touch interface seems right for this application, and tablets are nice and compact for use in the seats.

[Steven Donow]

We plan on scouting with tablets this year, probably either Nexus 7's(I have my personal one and absolutely love it...my mom just got a Nexus 10 as well and it's awesome) or Galaxy Tab 2 7's(which I'd probably root and put a ROM closer to stock Android on...but I digress). Whichever's cheaper at the time of purchase. The current plan is to use this app (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.luckydroid.droidbase&hl=en"this app"): and then export as CSV files to be put into an Excel or Access database. Moving the file from the tablet to computer is done with the archaic method of manually using Windows File Explorer to pull the CSV's off the tablet. The only flaw is sometimes(and only on 2 Nexus 7's tried so far, not on my phone running CyanogenMod 9...) the folder just plain doesn't show up or get updated, in which case this app (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bero.sdrescan&hl=en) has to run to get it to work.

[Ed Law]

Ed,

What tablets did your team decide to use for your scouting system?

We decided on 10" screens only so we can have all the fields we need to scout on one screen without each buttons being too small.

We have 2 ASUS Transformer TF300T. I bought them because they were the best on the market at the time in terms of performance with the Tegra 3 quad core processor and the 1080p HD video recording. One of them is for videotaping matches so I can review them with the drive team after each match. It also acts as a backup in case one of the other six tablets does not work.

I was going to get 7 ASUS Transformer but settled on 5 Motorola Xoom because I got a special deal for open box and demo units to save money. The Motorola Xoom is more than adequate for our purpose.

[dcarr]

We decided on 10" screens only so we can have all the fields we need to scout on one screen without each buttons being too small.

We have 2 ASUS Transformer TF300T. I bought them because they were the best on the market at the time in terms of performance with the Tegra 3 quad core processor and the 1080p HD video recording. One of them is for videotaping matches so I can review them with the drive team after each match. It also acts as a backup in case one of the other six tablets does not work.

I was going to get 7 ASUS Transformer but settled on 5 Motorola Xoom because I got a special deal for open box and demo units to save money. The Motorola Xoom is more than adequate for our purpose.

The Xoom is a good choice since its essentially a "Nexus" device and still receiving new updates straight from Google (through 4.1.2 at least).

Starting this year all students at one of the three schools that make up our team are required to have iPads. So our tablet makeup will consist of those, personally owned iPads, and personally owned Android tablets. As such we are testing a Google Docs based system because it is simple and cross platform. Still evaluating the apps that have been released by other teams for both platforms.

[Steven Donow]

The Xoom is a good choice since its essentially a "Nexus" device and still receiving new updates straight from Google (through 4.1.2 at least).

Starting this year all students at one of the three schools that make up our team are required to have iPads. So our tablet makeup will consist of those, personally owned iPads, and personally owned Android tablets. As such we are testing a Google Docs based system because it is simple and cross platform. Still evaluating the apps that have been released by other teams for both platforms.

Just out of curiosity, with a Google Docs based system, have you found a workaround for using them at the competitions, ie. without internet? Or are they 3G devices?

[jbsmithtx]

Exactly what I have we been looking into. Doesn't seem to be incredibly hard, but make sure that everyone on your team (or at least scouts) are on the same problem. Therein lies the problem with my team. Too many different platforms despite the fact that our school has iPads. We could only use maybe one or two, so we had to revert to phones. If something was done in Google docs, that might be able to sync with everyone and that's the route I think our team is going to pursue this year. Makes more sense from a compatibility standpoint, as well as not costing our teams a dime, especially if one can re-sync all the data overnight if not allowed in the arena areas. Also, makes sharing data seamless with anyone who needs it.

[Jacob.B]

So, our team is still sticking to the paper method.

Last year, we had two teams of 6 scouters. Each scouter would watch one bot and match different things throughout the match. After about 16 matches, we would switch to the other team.

I would like to switch to tablets, because it's seems more user friendly, environment benefiting, and easier to compile data.

[dcarr]

Just out of curiosity, with a Google Docs based system, have you found a workaround for using them at the competitions, ie. without internet? Or are they 3G devices?

Unfortunately, no. It's a shame that offline mode is not yet part of Google Drive on Android/iOS as it is on computers running Chrome.

The current plan for tablets without their own 3G connections is to tether via bluetooth. We are still looking at all options though, because something that can work offline would clearly be preferable.

[Ed Law]

So, our team is still sticking to the paper method.

Last year, we had two teams of 6 scouters. Each scouter would watch one bot and match different things throughout the match. After about 16 matches, we would switch to the other team.

I would like to switch to tablets, because it's seems more user friendly, environment benefiting, and easier to compile data.

Our two teams' scouting methods are very similar. I don't know if we will see each other before Buckeye Regional. If not, come by our pit and I will show you what our apps look like and how we use it. Also I don't know if I have enough students going to Buckeye Regional since it is Easter weekend and it will be our third competition in four weeks. May be our two teams can scout together. Even if I have enough students to scout, we can still work together so you get a better understanding how scouting with tablets work better than paper.

[stingray27]

One of our programmers had a very cool idea with the Scouting app for our team. Since we are looking into sending match results over bluetooth, a custom app doesn't allow you to interface with the bluetooth connectivity by sending the files we wanted to send. So instead, we are coding our data into pictures, then sending the pictures over, and decompiling our pictures. It is the only way we can think of right now and it seems to be going well so we will continue with it. Last year we used iPads and just stored all the files locally and downloaded them to a master computer 5 matches before our match, in which we ran a macro in excel to analyze the data, then passed to myself and my other driver to go and take around to our alliance to prepare for the match. This year, we hope that the picture files will allow us to be constantly updated and possibly allow the drive team to have a 7th iPad in which we will have automatic data in the pits.

[RoboScout]

We plan on scouting with tablets this year, probably either Nexus 7's(I have my personal one and absolutely love it...my mom just got a Nexus 10 as well and it's awesome) or Galaxy Tab 2 7's(which I'd probably root and put a ROM closer to stock Android on...but I digress). Whichever's cheaper at the time of purchase. The current plan is to use this app (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.luckydroid.droidbase&hl=en"this app"): and then export as CSV files to be put into an Excel or Access database. Moving the file from the tablet to computer is done with the archaic method of manually using Windows File Explorer to pull the CSV's off the tablet. The only flaw is sometimes(and only on 2 Nexus 7's tried so far, not on my phone running CyanogenMod 9...) the folder just plain doesn't show up or get updated, in which case this app (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bero.sdrescan&hl=en) has to run to get it to work.

Hey Steven,

I may have run into this same issue with the Xoom and Acer tablets that we use for our scouting application. Frequently, we would connect the tablet to the windows machine to manually transfer files and the new files wouldn't show up in the explorer window. We never did find the magic sequence that consistently resulted in the files appearing in the folder listing. Is this the behavior that you experienced, too, and what is resolved by the rescan application? If so, this find will be most welcome when if we need to fall back to a manual transfer again.

Thank you,

Ken St.
FIRST Team 1073