View Full Version : Local newspaper Staff editorial ,Please Read!
The Schenectady Gazette Sunday Dec. 9 Opinion section L.D. Davidson "Letting business shape K-12 curriculum is terrible idea" Paragraph 14 reads as follows.
"it is wonderful that Students in Amsterdam are building "Robots" that play basketball. It must be great fun, especially if it substitutes for class time better spent on reading, writing, math and learning to think clearly"
Amsterdam 4134 is a second year team, looking forward to a new challenge.
Please take the time to research and respond to this article.
The Sunday Gazette , PO box 1090 Schenectady NY 12301
(518) 374-4141
Daniel Beck General Manager (518)395-3036
Arthur Clayman Opinion page Editor (518)395-3133
E-mail gazette@dailygazette.net
Billfred
09-12-2012, 10:27
Is this op-ed posted anywhere? I can only find the tiniest of snippets from the top, and that makes it difficult to make any sort of well-thought response.
jwallace15
09-12-2012, 10:29
That angers me. They obviously don't understand that FIRST is more than just building robots. Chairman's Award is reading and writing, and nearly everything done while building a robot has to do with math. I'm sorry if I misread the clip from the newspaper, but it sounds to me like they think FRC is silly.
The article isn't available to non-subscribers. ( or maybe I'm doing something wrong )
There isn't enough information in the OP to determine the context.
But yeah, I can give a whole lecture on the relevancy of business and other societal stakeholder participation in the determination of curriculum.
If the article is submitted to the AP, then we should be able to find it elsewhere...
Unfortunately the internet is full of opinion givers that have not done due diligence in their research, or have a worldview that pre-conditions the outcome. But I speculate because I have not done my own due diligence researching an article I have not read.
Suggestion: It is time to make lemonade out of lemons. They brought it to the public's attentions. Now is the time to jump in and correct the facts...
Billfred
09-12-2012, 10:34
If the article is submitted to the AP, then we should be able to find it elsewhere...
From what I can tell, it's an op-ed; Googling the author's name doesn't show anything in the way of syndication.
I'm not familiar with the political goings on in NY state but apparently the following is in part what kicked off this opinion piece.
http://www.techvalley.org/Pages/Live/Education/Educational%20Initiatives.html
Obviously there is support for a variety of initiatives including robotics in techvalley.
PS - the need to update the web page, it says the championship is at the Georgia Dome.
PS2 - hopefully that will become accurate again one day.
L.D Davidson is a regular contributor to the Sunday Opinion section and lives in Amsterdam. I will post the entire article later this AM.
The Sunday Gazette
Mr. Daniel Beck
Mr. Arthur Clayman
In response to "Letting business shape K-12 curriculum is terrible idea".
On December 8th, we had a rookie team that is going to participate in the FIRST Robotics Competition in for the full day at our shop, the 'IC' ( the Kell Robotics Innovation Center ) in Kennesaw Georgia.
They rode a school bus 200 miles, one way to get there. They thought they were coming to learn just some technical things, but a lot of time and energy was spent on personal and team development, problem solving, ownership of problems and processes, design process, and other things. These are a few of the things that make a team successful and the personal skills developed are valuable to future employers.
They volunteered to come 200 miles, from a Title I school, on a Saturday, to learn things that engage them academically and intellectually, and move them toward becoming successful members of society. During the next few years they will mature, and find motivation and interests that many of their peers will not find. For some of them, December 8th, 2012 is the day their compass became aligned, they decided they were going to become better students and find out what they wanted to do with their career. They found a respite from the academic treadmill and discovered they can do something exciting, relevant, important, and fun.
Criticizing schools for allowing students to build a "basketball playing robot" exposes a deep misunderstanding of what it takes to accomplish this task. It requires a high degree of critical thinking, teamwork, problem solving, and other tasks that educators strive to accomplish in the classroom through “manufactured academic exercises”. It reminds one of the scene from the movie where Rodney Dangerfield is in a business class. Producing a robot to do a task like play basketball well is really tough and not unlike the challenges students will face in their career after school.
Educators work to prepare students to pursue hundreds of careers, from law, medicine, mechanics, construction, education, and so on. For the most part it is done in the classroom. Imagine that we prepared football players the same way we prepared these other students. We could teach them how to play football from a textbook, physically condition them in a gym class, and save all the cost and bother of having football programs after school. “You mean we could prepare athletes for NCAA and NFL and save all that time and money”. Unfortunately we train students the same way for other fields.
For thousands of years there has been a student/mentor apprenticeship process. The modern world has lost this old world process. If we are going to make progress in education, we have to reconnect students with mentors from outside the classroom, through competitions such as robotics, summer internships in business, and other activities that motivate and excite students about what they are doing in the classroom. The goal of the educational process is to help produce educated competent members of society. Test scores are an outcome of the process, not the ultimate goal. If we do not engage students in mentor based programs like robotics and other STEM and non-stem programs, we will abandon millions of students to spending years looking for ways to get their career started.
Ed Barker
Assistant Director of Advance Computing
Kennesaw State University, Kennesaw Georgia
Director, The Carlton J. Kell Robotics Team, aka Kell Robotics
Full disclosure: A major sponsor of Kell Robotics is the General Electric Company, Infrastructure, Energy
Alpha Beta
09-12-2012, 11:49
Edit: While a username and password combination are easily guessed... posting hints towards that process is perhaps not ethical.
I am afraid due to a copyright I am unable to post the entire article. If you are truly interested, the article can be purchased for $2.00 at the Schenectady gazette web site. www.dailygazette.com
Search "Letting business shape K-12 curriculum"
Basically the author seems to be saying that the Amsterdam 4134 Robotics program is a "Frankenprogram" created by some corporations sinister motives. The entire purpose is to create a narrowly trained labor force that will be obsolete in 15 years.
The author believes we need more Social workers, Lawyers and Teachers before we need more tech workers, (whatever that is). I am curious if the author understands the need for Engineers, Chemists, Mechanics, Machinists, Designers, etc. etc. add your own non-essential career to the list.
Basically the author seems to be saying that the Amsterdam 4134 Robotics program is a "Frankenprogram" created by some corporations sinister motives. The entire purpose is to create a narrowly trained labor force that will be obsolete in 15 years.
Bottom line is it is just an opinion of the author... there are plenty of opinions that contradict that opinion. Such is benefits of a plural society. Just view it as an opportunity to further the education of the public as to the value of robotics and other programs. The fact that this is being debated in a public forum ( the newspaper ) is good news. A few years ago that would not have happened.
At risk of kicking off another side discussion one of the things that is very irritating about society today is the worldview by some that "corporations" are big and evil and the concept of making money and enlightened self interest is somehow bad. The concept of well managed enlightened self interest seems to be lost on too many people, to the detriment of us all.
Found this through Googling: http://www.dailygazette.net/standard/ShowStoryTemplate.asp?Path=SCH/2012/12/09&ID=Ar02901&Section=Opinion
The author is seriously misinformed. I wonder what going to an FRC regional would do for him.
We should all use this as an opportunity to remind ourselves, and everyone else, that this is so much more than "building 'robots'".
JRuegsegger
09-12-2012, 15:14
As a high school student on a FIRST team and in a journalism class, I can say that this is one of the worst articles I have ever read.
Bias and an obvious lack of research are both slathered thoroughly over that article. I won't even get into AP writing style.
As a high school student on a FIRST team and in a journalism class, I can say that this is one of the worst articles I have ever read.
Bias and an obvious lack of research are both slathered thoroughly over that article. I won't even get into AP writing style.
Not to mention overt typos. This article has absolutely zero credibility by any standard. I sincerely hope that most readers are intelligent enough to realize this.
First and probably last time I'll say this on these forums.
lol
One of the points in this article that really irks me is the idea that STEM programs are creating workers whose skillset is outdated in 10-15 years because technology changes so quickly. The author implies that we need more doctors, lawyers, etc. whose skills somehow magically never become outdated.
You know what also changes constantly? Medicine, law, and many other fields. Physicians are constantly undergoing training and learning new things. To suggest that STEM fields are unique in that they are fast-paced and require constant evolution is ridiculous. Plus, that's hardly a negative. I can't imagine working in an industry that would remain stagnant for the entirety of a 50 year career. "The day you stop learning is the day you die. "
The irony. Students in robotics programs learn hardcore critical thinking skills. Critical thinking skills sounds like a prerequisite for writing opinion articles. Maybe the author should join a team and get some.
The irony. Students in robotics programs learn hardcore critical thinking skills. Critical thinking skills sounds like a prerequisite for writing opinion articles. Maybe the author should join a team and get some.
You should have mentioned that in the letter.
As others have stated, it might be best to invite the individual to some workshops or events.
Remember folks, the goal is to "change the culture". A lot of great advancement towards the goal has been accomplished, but letters like this are proof that there is still room for improvement.
As others have stated, it might be best to invite the individual to some workshops or events.
Remember folks, the goal is to "change the culture". A lot of great advancement towards the goal has been accomplished, but letters like this are proof that there is still room for improvement.
The nearest events are BAE, Boston, WPI, NYC, Long Island and FLR.
Billfred
09-12-2012, 17:31
I sent my two cents:
L.D. Davidson's Sunday op-ed says sarcastically "Likewise, it is wonderful that students in Amsterdam are building 'robots' that play basketball. It must be great fun, especially if it substitutes for class time better spent on reading, writing, math and learning to think clearly."
Having mentored students in the same FIRST Robotics Competition as Amsterdam for nearly a decade now, I invite Mr. Davidson to visit with a FIRST team when the season begins next month--almost all meet outside school hours. I extend this invitation because I believe he is misinformed about the program and what results from a student's participation in it.
When a student has READ the competition manual to avoid creating an overweight, out-of-spec machine, WRITTEN sponsors from the local hardware store on up to NASA (which sponsors 11 teams in New York this year) to pay for expenses, done the MATH to ensure the motors will hold the load and won't blow every breaker on the robot, and LEARNED TO THINK CLEARLY when troubleshooting a custom-built 120-pound machine (and its software) in 10 minutes before the next match, the result is not merely a student with specific vocational training. The result is a student prepared to work through tough problems in any business, including those that don't exist yet.
This is why colleges and universities offer over $16 million in scholarships to graduates of the program, why names from George H.W. Bush to the founders of Google and YouTube have spoken at our championship event, and why companies as diverse as Xerox, Motorola, Bausch & Lomb, Lockheed Martin, L3 Communications, Con Edison, jcpenney, Time Warner Cable, and even the New York Yankees are supporting FIRST teams in the state of New York this year.
And yes, it IS great fun.
Sincerely,
William "Billfred" Leverette
Columbia, South Carolina
from the article
13 counties
20 local chambers of commerce
111 school districts
345 schools
have signed up for the initiative.
It seems like this is a gold mine of interested contacts. Seems to me like the relevant STEM/FIRST/VEX parties in the area need to get to work and get these people to the regional events. Or I guess the real answer is maybe they already got to work and already got them there in the past and this is all good news.
Good luck NY !!
I sent my two cents:
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Billfred again.
Excellent letter.
Ian Curtis
09-12-2012, 17:50
As a high school student on a FIRST team and in a journalism class, I can say that this is one of the worst articles I have ever read.
Bias and an obvious lack of research are both slathered thoroughly over that article. I won't even get into AP writing style.
Editorials don't have to be researched or unbiased... they are by definition opinion based.
As others have said, the best way to deal with the kind of person that writes crochety letters to the editor is to be incredibly nice. They are quite glad to get into a shouting match, as they know they are right in the very core of their being. Invite the author to team meetings & an event! If they don't change their mind, certainly they are invited to their own opinions. After all, I do not recall the last time my opinions about something were drastically altered by an Oped...
I had a particularly nasty one written about me in 2009. Last time I checked, I'm having a great time designing airplanes and living life. I'm sure the author is still in his house reading local news and writing nasty letters, but that doesn't affect my life in the least.
“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.” -Dr. Seuss
We all do this because we enjoy it and it we want others to enjoy it as much as we do. Billfred has sent his letter, maybe the author will see we're all not as bad as he thinks, maybe he won't. Either way, we'll all continue to inspire and be inspired by the amazing people that are a part of this organization.
Take it in stride.
Regards, Bryan
“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.” -Dr. Seuss
We all do this because we enjoy it and it we want others to enjoy it as much as we do. Billfred has sent his letter, maybe the author will see we're all not as bad as he thinks, maybe he won't. Either way, we'll all continue to inspire and be inspired by the amazing people that are a part of this organization.
Take it in stride.
Regards, Bryan
Agreed. The general response to FIRST is so fantastic that something like this is but a small blip on the radar and doesn't impact what we do in the slightest. We'll all keep doing our best to promote our teams and FIRST in the best way possible.
I have tried to contact Mr. Davidson in order to offer him an invitation to one of our meetings.
I am also preparing an op-ed for next Sunday's paper that in my opinion the world is flat ,we are on the brink of being taken over by machines and LED Christmas lights are responsible for global warming.
pfreivald
09-12-2012, 21:47
As a high school science teacher and a school board member, I can only say this: There isn't a minute or dollar invested in education better than that which goes to FIRST. I extend an open invitation to the author to visit my FRC program to better inform his opinion on what it's all about.
XaulZan11
09-12-2012, 22:10
Before we slam the author for their opinion (or worse yet, laugh at them :o ), we, as a community, should look at why what we have done/haven't done to give them their (perhaps incorrect) opinion. For example, many (most?) people think corportations should be kept out of public school for various reasons. On the surface, FIRST appears to not only allowing corportations to interact with students but encourges it! The entire purpose of FIRST is to get inspired by mentors who work for these corporations. As a community, we are very proud of all the corporate relationship we have, including them on our team name and t-shirts.
Of course I do not agree with the author, but I can see how we contributed to their beliefs. The best way to change their beliefs is to continue to promote and educate about FIRST.
pfreivald
09-12-2012, 22:29
For example, many (most?) people think corportations should be kept out of public school for various reasons.
When confronted by people who think that something utterly impossible and (very!) debatable in terms of value such as keeping "corporations" out of public school, we should do when confronted with anything else: educate!
"Corporations" aren't soulless, money-sucking greed machines. Corporations are PTC, Deka, Bausch + Lomb, IFI, AndyMark... They're groups of people united in a common purpose to bring a product or service that betters both their own lives and those who use their product/service.
And many of these corporations seek to help people by participating in programs like FIRST, not because it gives them some sort of benefit, but because it's the right thing to do.
I'm as cynical as the best of them, but even I can see the value in more active corporate-school relationships--and this is true even when the corporate relationship is fundamentally self-serving. (Apple, for example, doesn't discount Apple products in schools solely out of the goodness of their hearts... They want people to prefer Apple products by the time they're able to buy their own and/or influence what their business/school/etc. buys... But their desire for Apple-preferring adults benefits schools and school children in very real and tangible ways.) That said, it's worth noting that many corporations support FIRST even though the long-term projections on their bottom line don't justify it -- they do so because helping awesome kids become ever more awesome is just awesome, and they want to help.
Before we slam the author for their opinion .....
Absolutely. There is no purpose in slamming anyone that doesn't understand our viewpoint. There is purpose in moving their viewpoint.
For example, many (most?) people think corportations should be kept out of public school for various reasons.
The best case of not letting business into a school is when they are trying to convert students into customers of their products. Brainwashing students into buying whatever.
The case for letting business into a school is to create partnerships that help the students succeed which coincidentally helps the business and society succeed. There is nothing wrong with that and no excuse needs to be made for it.
I was able to contact Mr. Davidson, He declined my invitation to a meeting citing other priorities. He thought he might have time to research FIRST a bit maybe?
His main issue from a humanist position is that corporations are invading our public school systems, training future employees for semi skilled throw away careers. He feels the robotics program is simply "candy".
After speaking with him I don't believe I would want to convince him otherwise.
We agreed to disagree.
James1902
09-12-2012, 22:41
I sent my two cents:
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Billfred again."
Well constructed letter. I agree that every invitation should be extended to the author of this piece. I believe that anyone who has had direct interaction with any of the students in the FIRST program would recognize the importance of the competition.
PhantomPhyxer
09-12-2012, 23:25
Dear Mr. L.D. Davidson,
You recently wrote an article about "Letting business shape K-12 curriculum is terrible idea”. I suggest you attend the upcoming kick-off of the For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology (FIRST) event on Jan. 5, 2013. It is an amazing event. At that event you will see that the sponsors are very well respected and trained Technical Experts at MIT and other well know Universities. Also these competitions are supported by past and current Presidents.
You will see the excitement and enthusiasm this event generates in the young adult students.
My experience is that this challenge is different and the competition provides a real life experience for the students to apply what they have learned. Every year the challenge requires the Robotics Team to build a robot in 6 weeks with a limited amount of funding, and the team has limited skill set. So, doesn't this sound like a real life experience? The Mentors works along with these Students are a trained Engineer dedicating their time to the school for free all across this nation. They not only pass on the critical thinking skills, teaching students how to read and evaluate specification, game rules, and technical drawings but they also learn how to calculate gear ratios, and robot speed. These Students learn Electricity, Computer-Aided Design, Machining and Metal Work, and Programming. Moreover, these students are not athletes but they learn how to operate in a team Environment. They also learn how to operate in a multi-team environment called an alliance.
Most importantly, individuals, Mentors and Teachers are taught to practice Gracious Professionalism. Teams compete like crazy but they do not in any way degrade a team member, another team or an adult. Booing at a competition is not allowed. When a Robot breaks a competing team helps the other team fix their Robot with parts, labor, or expertise.
Now does this sound like a setting where kids are goofing off and not learning?
Most of the Teams I have dealt with hold Robotics Team Meeting and build times after school have ended. Our school requires grade checks on all students. If we find out a student is not maintaining his or her grades we do not allow them to attend the Team Meeting. In some cases we provide a tutor.
Sincerely Yours,
Norman Collier
FIRST Team Mentor
San Jose, CA
Normcollier@comcast.net
FYI,
I was just notified by the editorial staff of the Gazette that my letter to the editor will be published.
I'm glad to hear this.
PayneTrain
10-12-2012, 23:06
A fundamental aspect of a solid opinion article is to lay out well-researched and verified facts to form the opinion, not to lay out your opinion and form the facts around it.
An obvious example is championing an unwavering practice of "humanist schools" to develop social workers and teachers instead of people who would become employed in a blue chip corporation by using a "fact" that tech jobs become outsourced in 10-15 years, while no teacher or lawyer or doctor or social worker ever has a change in their career environment (something that is beyond debatable).
Instead, I think sound logic would say that given the following series of facts:
Education quality in America needs improvement
Unemployment in the United States is still woefully high
The unemployment problem is especially prevalent among recent college graduates
There are numerous open positions at tech companies that can't be filled because the college graduates described above do not meet the qualifications
to form an opinion along the lines of "maybe it's time we encourage children to pursue STEM fields in adolescent years."
I wish I had more time to develop better-versed thoughts, but I have finals to study for in my pursuit of my worthless, soulless-corporation-driven electrical engineering degree.
F22Rapture
10-12-2012, 23:59
There are numerous open positions at tech companies that can't be filled because the college graduates described above do not meet the qualifications
[/LIST]
"Entry-level position"
"5-10 years experience required"
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