2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!

[MelodyPond]

http://www.andymark.com/FIRST-Choice-p/fc13-037.htm

One of the parts on AndyMark's FIRST Choice is Galvanized Steel Cable!!! This combined with the lyrics to "Never gunna give you UP. Never gunna let you DOWN" may imply some sort of pulley aspect to the game. Plus on the NASA page for Mission 31, the first video is of Yo-yo's.

[dellagd]

I appears that either everyone or no one will be reciving a Kinect this year. There is no variation between Rookie and Veteran kits for the Kinect. Is it resonable to assume that both rookies and veterans alike will be recieving an additional Kinect?

Source: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/2013-rookie-veteran-variation

If they're giving us another one to put on the robot (Using the first one we had for Hybrid period)

I dont believe this, but it is possible. Saying as how so little people decided to use it last year, maybe they were just like "If you're a rookie and you really want a kinect to practice with still, you'll have to buy it"

I do believe that they will still have it used in a hybrid period of some sort though, but probably not as impractically (IMHO) as this year.

[Kevin Thorp]

Just for curiosity I rendered a 'bot at 79% of the 2012 size. The dimensions include the wheel widths.
https://www.box.com/shared/static/1j7qrsmyudau5qjguk7t.jpg

[Kevin Thorp]

Side View:
https://www.box.com/shared/static/ljb8z6mznonf77w5twcm.jpg

[MetalJacket]

Has anyone tried to find some correlation between the numbers and the kit of parts? Maybe there will be some kind of pattern based on the prices, dimensions or some other number related to the parts.

[jason701802]

If the longest frame member is 30", the chassis would be 32" long with the front and rear cross bars. Keeping the length-width ratio the same, this would make the width 23.58", so the max dimensions are more likely to be 32"x24"x50".

[LaurenMary]

This might be a wild tangent but I went on the assumptino that each pair of numbers represented a character. Also the pairs of numbers all appeared in the number pi. I went through pi and starting with three assigned pairs of numbers to a letter, in alphabetical order
31 A
41 B
59 C
26 D
53 E
58 F
97 G
93 H
23 I
84 J
62 K
64 L
33 M
83 N
27 O
95 P
02 Q
88 R
41 S
97 T
16 U
93 V
99 W
37 X
51 Y

There are several repeats but I figured this was a good place to start. If you go through and substitute the numbers for letters, and in the few instances where there are doubles pick the most logical letter you get the result:

A ROSE, KISSED

SINGER GREAT

A DINNER, MISSED

HOLDING WEIGHT

Has anyone else found this?

[cadandcookies]

I think someone else posted the wheels from AndyMark, and there was someone mentioning all the threes and relating it to Lunacy. Maybe it's the exact opposite of Lunacy, and instead of a simulated low-gravity environment, it's a simulated high-gravity environment? I doubt that really has anything to do with it, but a high-gravity game would be interesting.

Regarding smaller frames, I'm game (I just wish we hadn't just built a new cart designed for a "regular" robot). I would hope they would go back to those "regular" dimensions later, though. People like to watch larger robots, and sponsors like larger robots.

[karomata]

While everyone has been discussing who wasn't at the GDC meeting, and how 31 inch robot criteria can change the game... I did some more thinking. So just to recap:

This is the hint:

31 88274153, 622341415326

412383975388 9788533197

31 262383835388, 332341415326

93276426238397 995323979397

Which somebody was able to turn into this:

A ROSE, KISSED
SINGER GREAT
A DINNER, MISSED
HOLDING WEIGHT

Now, from that we have been able to deduce that the first 2 lines refer to a song by Seal, and so while thinking about that, I thought about the different plays on words with seal. I kept going through words like seal-ed, seal-proof, seal-ling. Then using ceiling, I looked back at the riddle, and created such idea:

Similar to 2004, FIRST Frenzy, game pieces will be stationed above the field, although in this game, it is a large platform that is stationary and above the robots on the field, similar to a large table, where most people associate eating dinner with. So, with that, and looking at the riddle, to explain the lyrics of:

A DINNER, MISSED
HOLDING WEIGHT

So in the first line, if you miss a dinner, you are standing some one up, which we can interpret as describing how robots will have to stand up to reach the game pieces. And to confirm that game pieces would be elevated, we look at the last line: holding weight. This "weight" would be the game pieces. The game pieces may actually be weighted for more of a challenge, or they are just calling it weight to be more vague about it. This theory is very plausible, seeing as many of these ideas have been replicated in past years. The only missing component is that we are unsure of how to score, if the game pieces start on the elevated platform, I'm assuming for complexity, the scoring on a lower level, so that we don't end up with a ton of just really tall robots.

I am pretty sure that the Rick Astley picture was a hint, but I could be wrong. There are 2 previous hints that have yet to be defined, because Frank said so himself in the most recent post on the blog. That is why I believe the Rick Astley picture in legit, and I believe that the meaning of that hint is that matches will be 3 minutes long to allow for more complex and developed strategies, why also increasing the need for strategic play due to a lacking number of matches.

As for the 3rd hint: I have absolutely no idea. Although I feel that I can safely shoot down a few theories of what the 3rd clue would pertain to:
-Number of alliances: I am fairly certain they will not add a 3rd alliance. It would make coopertition so much more complicated, and matches would quickly turn from X vs. Y vs. Z to X+Y vs. Z when alliance Z is given a powerhouse team. Not even to mention the fact that the GDC would have to redesign the shape of the field. That would mean that FIRST would have to create new FIRST fields and NASA would have to do the same with their fields, the there are all those teams out there with warehouses where they have a field set up for year around, they would have to now restructure the entire field.
-Water Game: Yes, congratulations, you have successfully found a relation between water and the most ridiculous things on the internet. You should win the Nobel Peace Prize. We can relate anything back to water, and by anything, I literally mean ANYTHING. Surfing around on Chief Delphi has proven that to me. I honestly believe that FIRST is closer to developing a flying game than a water game, based on the CARD demonstration at Championships in 2011.

I'd keep going but I think I have gotten the point across. What do you guys think?

[MetalJacket]

OK, I have no idea what this means, but I re wrote the set of numbers, once excluding the threes, and once exculding the ones and twos (since the apparently skipped hints one and two). I then put each of those sets of numbers into a decimal to ASCII translator. The set without threes contained a japanese character which google said meant "bullhead," and a chinese character meaning "loach" (both types of fish, water game, right :D ). The set without ones and twos contained a chinese character for "An" followed by a korean character for "cone." Again, not quite sure what this means, it just seemed interesting.

[LaurenMary]

I dont think anyone explained yet how they found:

A ROSE, KISSED
SINGER GREAT
A DINNER, MISSED
HOLDING WEIGHT

I was able to find this too ( i actually thought I was crazy because it made no sense to me) by using this:

31 = A
41 = B
59 = C
26 = D
53 = E
58 = F
97 = G
93 = H
23 = I
84 = J
62 = K
64 = L
33 = M
83 = N
27 = O
95 = P
02 = Q
88 = R
41 = S
97 = T
16 = U
93 = V
99 = W
37 = X
51 = Y
05 = Z

These are the first 52 digits of pi. I assumed that a pair of numbers represented a character and then went through in order and coupled each pair of numbers with a letter.

[dellagd]

I think im leaning towards more of Rick Astly being less and less of a hint.

It did just say a picture from the GDC lab, and maybe someone there wanted to be funny and posted a picture of "Never gonna give you up" on the board because it had the lyrics "Never gonna let you down" in it, just like the end game of lifting your teammates off the ground I think will happen this year.

Its very possible that there just happened to be 2 red one blue and one yellow pushpin available for use when whoever posted the photo on the board.

Also, the fact that this rhymes (And with the correct syllable counts) makes me think it is the correct decryption even more:

A ROSE, KISSED
SINGER GREAT
A DINNER, MISSED
HOLDING WEIGHT

[pandamonium]

Ceiling = seal ing I think that this would be clue worthy

[CLandrum3081]

All I can say is that you guys are way better at this than I am. For some reason, I tried to convert the number pairs to binary and hexadecimal. :ahh: I need to get better at this :o

[Hallry]

As stated before:

From FRC blog comment section:
KOP drive base
Submitted by Ian on Fri, 12/21/2012 - 17:22.

On the KOP dimensions page, it says that the AndyMark Drive Base Kit is only 30" long. Is this a typo?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Typo?
Submitted by Frank Merrick on Fri, 12/21/2012 - 17:24.

There are no typos I'm aware of on the KoP dimensions page.

Frank also commented that:

Where are the other hints???
Submitted by Erick on Fri, 12/21/2012 - 15:13.
I agree with jordan, this is the first hint I see on this site and yet it's labeled #3, where are the first 2?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Hints?
Submitted by Frank Merrick on Fri, 12/21/2012 - 16:06.
The '#3' is just a label. You shouldn't assume that there were other hints. But you shouldn't assume there weren't either. In your shoes, I would make no assumptions.


So...does the 3 not mean that it is the third hint? :yikes:

[gyroscopeRaptor]

The first two lines of Kiss From A Rose by Seal:
There used to be a graying tower alone on the sea.
You became the light on the dark side of me.

There will be a neutral structure in the center of the field. I would like to guess that the endgame will be like 2004 where only a few robots can get it and there would be intense competition to get it and also deny the other alliance from having it.

From the pushpins, if they are legit: there will be two like structures on the other side, one for each alliance, but nowhere near as important.

My friend is thinking the game could be like 1994's Tower Power with a central tower that can be scored on.

And honestly, I have no idea how I cracked the riddle. I just thought Pi when i saw the strings of numbers, and then I thought pairs of digits would easily encrypt letters. A bit later, with a few substitutions needed, and here we go.

Does the fact that Pi was part of the cipher become a hint in itself?

[Hallry]

Does the fact that Pi was part of the cipher become a hint in itself?

We seem to all be making hints out of things that are not. If it something was a hint, it would have been a hint.

[wilhitern1]

[QUOTE=coalhot;
Let's go people! Figure it out![/QUOTE]

The thing that gets me is the use of crypto in the hint. If you want to go back to the Astly pic, and Rick Roled, Isn't that another way of indicating hiding things? Might the game then involve hiding things?

Anyone for a game of robot hide and seek?

Neal

[dellagd]

A hint that must be decoded means that the game would involve having to find things? I think thats a little to far deep...

[Gregor]

Veteran FRC teams won't be getting another one -- they got one in the 2012 KoP.

Please cite your source on this.

[sharrington9614]

Now I'm no expert in cryptology or the history of FIRST however these hints have been conning out for a few years now. if we were to go back and reverse engineer all the previous hints a pattern could emerge helping us better understand the thought process of theGDC. in tern making it more simple to decode the current game hint

Oh and by the way new drive train be be in part because the big rumor I heard was Belt drives

AND SHUT-UP ABOUT WATER GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's not gonna happen

[sg999]

I feel like that there's another layer to the hint that's been missed so far:

KISS
- (from CalTran's sig) Keep It Super Safe
- (from I don't remember whom) Keep It Simple, Stupid
Therefore, the smaller robot dimensions make sense because they will be safer and simpler. However, there's probably something else that this can be related to.

Kit of arts:
-Rick Astley, Rose Kue, and Seal are all music artists (or at least stellar musicians)
-The backdrop of the crew picture is a piece of art (starry night)
-"The Starry Night" is a famous poem by Anne Sexton (may or may not be related)
-Rose art museum- history of Carnegie Hall (famous for music)
Carnegie: Carnegie Mellon University, steel plant, philanthropist, etc (missing something here, he has to tie into this somehow)
-Seal- family seal=art form in some cultures
Art will be tied into this somehow.

EDIT: Got rid of repetitive info

[F22Rapture]

I think im leaning towards more of Rick Astly being less and less of a hint.

It did just say a picture from the GDC lab, and maybe someone there wanted to be funny and posted a picture of "Never gonna give you up" on the board because it had the lyrics "Never gonna let you down" in it, just like the end game of lifting your teammates off the ground I think will happen this year.

Its very possible that there just happened to be 2 red one blue and one yellow pushpin available for use when whoever posted the photo on the board.

Also, the fact that this rhymes (And with the correct syllable counts) makes me think it is the correct decryption even more:

I have a hard time reconciling that the screenshot having been taken at exactly 3:00 is a coincidence. "Three" is a recurring theme this year... I still think it's significant.

[Radical Pi]

G and T are the same:
-G doesn't exist in many other scripts, but the sound of g exists almost world wide.
-G was created by a Roman (Romans=copycats of the Greek), has changed a lot (used to be represented by many different letters)
-T is from the ancient Greek, which was once a very powerful country, and Greek was used both by mathematicians/scientists (Pythagoras, etc) and literary artists (Aristotle, etc).
-T also stayed constant throughout the ages, having a similar representation in most scripts.
G=T, so new aspects to FIRST which may involve more non-engineering ideas (art?)
There has to be some reason that they're the same, so if the above isn't it, it has to be something else, there's no way the GDC would just do it randomly.

That one's been explained already. The cipher is based on pi, with every 2 digits corresponding to one letter of the alphabet. As it happens, arranging in alphabetical order makes G and T both correspond to 97

[jtechau]

I"Three" is a recurring theme this year... I still think it's significant.

"Three" is a very common number. It's pretty easy to find coincidental relationships with things so common.

If you play "The Wizard of Oz" and "Dark Side of the Moon" simultaneously, there are an impressive number of coincidences. But they're still coincidences.

[Daryl Vogel]

I think what we should do is post (in one thing) everything we know for sure and
then start trying to make connections

[Shifter]

Good work gyroscopeRAPTOR on the pi thing!

One possible reason for using "pi" as part of the hint, maybe each team gets one of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi) in this year's KoP.

As far as the "DINNER MISSED", I don't know from Bill's Dec 20, 2012 blog who from the FRC staff was missing. An older list of FRC staff appears in an April 27, 2011 blog (team358.org/files/first_search/BillsBlogArchive2008-2011.doc) but there are multiple different names on the two lists.

[coalhot]

Idea: this is game hint number 3, but it doesn't say anywhere that numbers 1 and 2 have been released yet. What it they are something else, say the names of the game manual, maybe a new section, maybe a new product released in the next two weeks?

[Dominator1619]

running on the pi thing, maybe there is no end game? if you miss dinner, you dont get desert right?

[Dominator1619]

or pi could be the actual hint itself

[Bastius95]

Has anyone found the EXIF data for the Rick Astly photo? It seems that the image was taken inside a building called Mill no. 3 in Manchester NH. I dont know if this means anything but the see science centre is located in this building.

[jspatz1]

17 pages and you guys don't have this figured out yet.

[ttldomination]

or pi could be the actual hint itself

I think the idea of a pie game scares me more than the idea of a water game.

- Sunny G.

[Cosgrayk1]

31 is a very important mathematical and Geometrical number. 31 is used to reference the center of a triangle, pentagon, or decagon. thats all i got right now.

[Brandon_L]

You whipper-snappers don't remember the before-bumper days, when we all had steel frames and prayed they'd hold up...

I would trust regular robot-robot action, but not with wheels exposed from the front of the frame by 4" that can get clipped off ;)

[Jeffy]

The creator of "Starry night" which seems to be something that is popping up ocassionaly (and detectives don't believe in coincidences), Van Gogh, often missed dinner, especially on Sundays:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_van_Gogh#cite_ref-30 (footnote 4)

As well, Van Gogh excelled in the very last portion of his career (end game?)

A search for music and Van Gogh pointed me towards Beethoven. His career is often divided into 3 parts.

I'm thinking a game with 3 distinct game modes rather than the two that we usually see.
Possibly an auton
A tele-op where a piece is "never given up"
and then a tele-op where the opposite is done.

[F22Rapture]

17 pages and you guys don't have this figured out yet.

I think the fact that we figured out the entire decrypted code by page 4 counts for something...

[Sean Raia]

The creator of "Starry night" which seems to be something that is popping up ocassionaly (and detectives don't believe in coincidences), Van Gogh, often missed dinner, especially on Sundays:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_van_Gogh#cite_ref-30 (footnote 4)

As well, Van Gogh excelled in the very last portion of his career (end game?)

A search for music and Van Gogh pointed me towards Beethoven. His career is often divided into 3 parts.

I'm thinking a game with 3 distinct game modes rather than the two that we usually see.
Possibly an auton
A tele-op where a piece is "never given up"
and then a tele-op where the opposite is done.

That was incredibly well thought out, but i think you completely diverged from the "essence" of the hint. I'm only saying this because I want us all to discover (as close as we can) the meaning of this hint.

You took a picture that was on the background of one of NASA's mission pages (which was found by analyzing the first tiny piece of the long string of numbers), and then found the artist, and then went on into more specific and seemingly random relationships regarding the artist.

EDIT: Sorry if this sounds harsh, it's late at night and in checking this thread I have been let down by the near-complete halt of progress we have made since the 5th page.

[SoftroniX]

Here's what I'm seeing, although I could verywell be compeltely off. I'm basing this off of what's already been said as well as my own thoughts.

"A ROSE, KISSED" may be a reference to the song "Kissed by a Rose" which is by a man names Seal

"SINGER GREAT" could be a more specific clue meant to point you towards the singer of the song (Seal)

"A DINNER, MISSED" could be refering to a picture of the same caption on flikr (It's actually the first result if you google the phrase)
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/81238501@N00/8073635501/

"HOLDING WEIGHT"......well, really not sure here. Could either be a reference to the weighing bucket shown in the picture..... or that whole Rick Astley thing (which would suggest some sort of robot-lifting-other-robots situation). Who knows

Now, all of this would seem to point towards an aquatic theme, but I don't think that is the case.

I think the theme is going to be sustainability/survival/"protection of life" in some manner. I say this for two reasons:

1. cypher points to seals (often under protection) and dead fish

2. earlier on, it was mentioned that there may or may not be reasoning behind releasing the hint on 12/21/12: the day that we were all supposed to die on.
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-einstein-update-and-game-hint-status
The blog hints that the day is significant, yet may not be for the whole "long count" reason (he says that it could just be a coincidence). If that is the case, then the other reason why that date is significant is because that is the anniversary of the Lockerbie Bombing (google it if you don't already know what it was).

So yeah, that's my spiel.

Holding up teammates to keep them alive

[CrazyHorse]

So yeah, that's my spiel.

Holding up teammates to keep them alive[/B]

The first thing i thought of, a blast from everyone's childhood. "The floor is lava"

[flamespinner]

On the topic of the two other game hints. I was digging around, and I found a reply to a post on the FIRST Hint page that said this:

Other Hints?
Submitted by Frank Merrick on Fri, 12/21/2012 - 16:06.

The '#3' is just a label. You shouldn't assume that there were other hints. But you shouldn't assume there weren't either. In your shoes, I would make no assumptions.

I googled around for other Hints for this years game, And I have found nothing. So the #3 is part of the hint

[jspatz1]

Here's what I'm seeing, although I could verywell be compeltely off. I'm basing this off of what's already been said as well as my own thoughts.

"A ROSE, KISSED" may be a reference to the song "Kissed by a Rose" which is by a man names Seal

"SINGER GREAT" could be a more specific clue meant to point you towards the singer of the song (Seal)

"A DINNER, MISSED" could be refering to a picture of the same caption on flikr (It's actually the first result if you google the phrase)
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/81238501@N00/8073635501/

"HOLDING WEIGHT"......well, really not sure here. Could either be a reference to the weighing bucket shown in the picture..... or that whole Rick Astley thing (which would suggest some sort of robot-lifting-other-robots situation). Who knows


Sealed buckets.

[Kevin Thorp]

When I search for "a dinner missed" in quotes the first thing that pops up is this photo of fish (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81238501@N00/8073635501/).

It was taken in Drangsnes, Iceland by an very talented nature photographer named Bo Valentin. I'm not sure if he's a factor, but according to Wikipedia Drangsnes got its name from a tall rock named Kerling of what is said that it is one of three troll women who tried to separate the West Fjords from the rest of Iceland. Interesting...

Stretching a little further "Kerling" is an alternate spelling of "Curling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2010_Winter_Olympics_-_Curling_-_Women_-_USA.jpg)", the sport where a heavy polished stone is slid across the ice towards a target area while team members use brooms to alter the state of the ice in it's path.

[dodar]

When I search for "a dinner missed" in quotes the first thing that pops up is this photo of fish (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81238501@N00/8073635501/).

It was taken in Drangsnes, Iceland by an very talented nature photographer named Bo Valentin. I'm not sure if he's a factor, but according to Wikipedia Drangsnes got its name from a tall rock named Kerling of what is said that it is one of three troll women who tried to separate the West Fjords from the rest of Iceland. Interesting...

Stretching a little further "Kerling" is an alternate spelling of "Curling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2010_Winter_Olympics_-_Curling_-_Women_-_USA.jpg)", the sport where a heavy polished stone is slid across the ice towards a target area while team members use brooms to alter the state of the ice in it's path.

(voice of Stephen Colbert)NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I had to go to rehab to forget regolith! :(

[jspatz1]

"A dinner missed" is too unusual of a phrase for this photo not to mean something.

A picture of dead fish. "Holding weight."

A fish scale.

[wilhitern1]

or pi could be the actual hint itself

PI is mostly useful when dealing with circles.

The robots / alliances build circles, say from different sized pieces? Perhaps pie shaped pieces?

[Jeffy]

That was incredibly well thought out, but i think you completely diverged from the "essence" of the hint. ...
5th page.

Please propose an alternative then.

And my last amount of time used on this subject has given me a game proposition:
3 towers that game pieces are placed on the top of. 3 sections of the game. During each "mode" of the game, your alliance is allowed to score on a certain tower by placing game pieces on top. During the same mode, the opposite alliance must score on a different tower. At any time during the game you may de score from any tower. The game is scored with 3 total points. 1 point for each tower your alliance has more game pieces on than the other alliance.

[RedLeader342]

Half-Life 3 confirmed for this year's FIRST game.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

you sir win the game

[Brad Morton]

I think the "Dinner Missed" relates to the play "Dinner for One" in which the operative and often repeated line is "the same procedure as every year".

[JB987]

Please propose an alternative then.

And my last amount of time used on this subject has given me a game proposition:
3 towers that game pieces are placed on the top of. 3 sections of the game. During each "mode" of the game, your alliance is allowed to score on a certain tower by placing game pieces on top. During the same mode, the opposite alliance must score on a different tower. At any time during the game you may de score from any tower. The game is scored with 3 total points. 1 point for each tower your alliance has more game pieces on than the other alliance.

A nice description of Triple Play 05...

[holygrail]

Here are the things I think are important for the info we have so far.
1. I think the significance of the 12/21/12 release date is that if you add the 1s and 2s together you get 3/3/3. Three groups of 3.
2. This was game hint 3, even though you really have to stretch to assume that there were two other official hints.
3. Pi was the key to decoding the hint (a version of 3)
4. The Rick Astley video was from exactly the three minute mark
5. This doesn’t have to do with three, but the box dimensions on the chassis are smaller this year.

Okay, so here is what I think it all means.
I think we had correctly figured out that the 3:00 mark on the Rick Astley hint means that we will have 3:00 matches this year. This bothered me because I, like most people (I think) would rather play more matches rather than fewer.

But if there are 3 alliances of 3 robots each, you can still have each robot play about 10 matches in qualification rounds with only about 2/3 of the matches. Usually at a 60 robot regional, you have to play about 100 matches for each robot to be in 10 matches. With 9 robots on the field, you only need 67 matches to do the same thing. I don’t even want to think about what this means for scouting though.

Fewer, longer matches also means more time with robots on the field and less reset time. Also, more interesting for the spectators.

This also goes along with the smaller robot dimensions. To have more robots on the field, they need to be smaller.

3/3/3 – 3 robots, 3 alliances, 3 minute matches

As for the nature of the game, I feel like it is much more speculative. I do feel like there may be a big tower in the middle of the field for something, but I wouldn’t bet much money on that thought. I feel more confident about the idea that you will have to hold up something heavy since it is (kind of) in both clues. The Rick Astley song – “Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down” and in the cypher “A dinner missed, holding weight.”

[Steven Donow]

Before everyone jumps ahead for thinking 3 alliances,(and if it's already been said, sorry, didn't read through every post in the thread) in the Veteran/Rookie KOP Difference chart, rookies get "Bumper Material Sets, Red and Blue, 2". That, to me, debunks 3 alliances. My opinion on the three could be three definitive divisions in the game modes (which also has probably been said), in that it's Auto/Hybrid, Teleop, and then End Game, where it's explicitly defined that you HAVE to do the end game task and ONLY the end game task, which is a contrast from previous years end games.

[dellagd]

Good work gyroscopeRAPTOR on the pi thing!

One possible reason for using "pi" as part of the hint, maybe each team gets one of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi) in this year's KoP.

As far as the "DINNER MISSED", I don't know from Bill's Dec 20, 2012 blog who from the FRC staff was missing. An older list of FRC staff appears in an April 27, 2011 blog (team358.org/files/first_search/BillsBlogArchive2008-2011.doc) but there are multiple different names on the two lists.

Already experimenting with the Raspberry Pi over here for the 2013 season. Ours will prove quite useful I think.

[Qbot2640]

Before everyone jumps ahead for thinking 3 alliances,(and if it's already been said, sorry, didn't read through every post in the thread) in the Veteran/Rookie KOP Difference chart, rookies get "Bumper Material Sets, Red and Blue, 2". That, to me, debunks 3 alliances. My opinion on the three could be three definitive divisions in the game modes (which also has probably been said), in that it's Auto/Hybrid, Teleop, and then End Game, where it's explicitly defined that you HAVE to do the end game task and ONLY the end game task, which is a contrast from previous years end games.

That is a very interesting idea about the possible true meaning of the "3"...I too thought it unlikely that 3 different alliances would compete simultaneously. For one thing, I could not imagine a finals bracket mechanism that would work.

If this scenario is true, though, I think the division would instead be to separate autonomous from hybrid. I have been saying since last year that Microsoft would probably be pushing hard to get the Kinect to be more heavily used, perhaps this is the way that will happen. I think the dynamics of regular play vs. endgame that we saw last year was pretty good...for example, 1717's machine - while an awesome balancing robot - was such a good shooter that they would choose to let the other two bots balance, and they could easily rack up more than the difference by continuing to shoot. I look for a regular play - endgame mix of that same "choose your strength" variety.

[gabrielau23]

A ROSE, KISSED
SINGER GREAT
A DINNER, MISSED
HOLDING WEIGHT

Well, the first two lines of the poem match up to give us one hint: Seal.
How about the second two lines combined? A dinner missed, holding weight. I think the robots becoming smaller is a plausible explanation, but I, for one, wouldn't welcome it. I think that size is definitely one of the best parts of FIRST. When I'm sharing robotics with people who aren't in FIRST, my first question is always, "What do you think we're building?" Their answer is inevitably something similar to a RC car. When I tell them that we are building 28" x 38" x 60" robots, their jaws just drop.

[Sean Raia]

Please propose an alternative then.

There has been a lot of progress made in deciphering the hint in the last couple of pages.
I think the interpretation "Fish Scale" for the second part of the riddle is correct, Now how do we relate Seal to Fish Scale?
THAT
or a "Dinner missed, holding weight" is trying to tell us that the Seal missed his regular dinner of fish so he can hold a ball and "Never let it down"

[gabrielau23]

There has been a lot of progress made in deciphering the hint in the last couple of pages.
I think the interpretation "Fish Scale" for the second part of the riddle is correct, Now how do we relate Seal to Fish Scale?

Seals eat fish, so maybe we're weighing what our "sealed" bot has consumed? So we'd be placing stuff into our robot and then lifting ourselves to score points in the endgame?

[dodar]

There has been a lot of progress made in deciphering the hint in the last couple of pages.
I think the interpretation "Fish Scale" for the second part of the riddle is correct, Now how do we relate Seal to Fish Scale?

Maybe the more you put onto/into the "fish scale" it unlocks a seal of something.

[dodar]

There has been a lot of progress made in deciphering the hint in the last couple of pages.
I think the interpretation "Fish Scale" for the second part of the riddle is correct, Now how do we relate Seal to Fish Scale?
THAT
or a "Dinner missed, holding weight" is trying to tell us that the Seal missed his regular dinner of fish so he can hold a ball and "Never let it down"

They had that in the 2004 game didn't they? Like you had to put a ball in a box during auto and it released like a million balls from above the player station.

[MechEng83]

Before everyone jumps ahead for thinking 3 alliances,(and if it's already been said, sorry, didn't read through every post in the thread) in the Veteran/Rookie KOP Difference chart, rookies get "Bumper Material Sets, Red and Blue, 2". That, to me, debunks 3 alliances. My opinion on the three could be three definitive divisions in the game modes (which also has probably been said), in that it's Auto/Hybrid, Teleop, and then End Game, where it's explicitly defined that you HAVE to do the end game task and ONLY the end game task, which is a contrast from previous years end games.

It's true that there's no difference with rookie's getting a third color that veterans would not, BUT, what if they give material for a 3rd bumper to ALL teams? It wouldn't be listed as a differential among the teams.

[CalTran]

Return of the human player pad? XD

Something else for the threes...what about like in 2006 with auton, offensive, and defensive? They are trying top make hybrid more important, though the lack of rookie connects is a but hindering...and I doubt Microsoft would donate another 3k kinects.

[DonRotolo]

This is all speculation. Um, yeah. That's the fun.

Seal is a pretty solid clue, and since seals live in water, water game.
A Dinner Missed shows fish. Fish live in water, water game.
And at 2012 CMP, a member of the GDC said "Water bottle game", there's a recording of it.

Oh, and 3 is important: There will be 3 teams on each alliance.

See you Jan 5th!

[Brad Morton]

I think the "Dinner Missed" phrase relates to the play "Dinner for One". In the play the often used, operative phrase is "Same procedure as every year".

[runneals]

They had that in the 2004 game didn't they? Like you had to put a ball in a box during auto and it released like a million balls from above the player station.

Yah... That would be cool to have a game with a bunch of balls, but it would also be a pain I would think... and last year we had a game with a bunch of balls, so wouldn't they want to change things up a bit?

See the animation here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF1k9H7hUMo).

[Jay O'Donnell]

If you look at the first and third lines, they both start with 31 and end with the sequence 2341415326, which adds up to 31.

It's probably a coincidence and has no relevance, I just found it interesting.

[runneals]

Did anyone else think about the dinner missed part relating to this list (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-the-frc-staff)?

[Gregor]

Did anyone else think about the dinner missed part relating to this list (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-the-frc-staff)?

Yes, read the thread.

[Grim Tuesday]

3 Alliances is not feasible unless it is something like Coopertition FIRST where all are working toward a common goal. The GDC has proven they don't mind changing the game up for eliminations. What if there are coopertitious qualification rounds (3 alliances work towards one goal) and then competitive eliminations (two alliances compete)?

[cfair]

"Dinner missed, holding weight" is what wrestlers do before matches.

[Akash Rastogi]

"Dinner missed, holding weight" is what wrestlers do before matches.

Drop in weight allowance? Could also mean holding the 120lb limit.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1203816&postcount=100

[Vkhemlani]

"Never Gonna Give You Up" is the first track on Rick Astley's compilation "3 Originals" (there's the 3 again) which was released in 2003:ahh: .
2003's game was "stack attack" where boxes had to be stacked in scoring areas to earn points. Well what if in some variation of the game, the boxes had to actually "hold weight" this year. In addition, there have been posts stating that the boxes might be too small to be holding larger game pieces... So maybe the boxes themselves are the games pieces? Just some ideas.

Creds: Thomas

[cfair]

Drop in weight allowance? Could also mean holding the 120lb limit.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1203816&postcount=100
Seal's first band was called "Push". And there are some nifty 2 speed gearboxes newly on the market. A pushing game like stack attack (circa 2003)?

[bduddy]

Before everyone jumps ahead for thinking 3 alliances,(and if it's already been said, sorry, didn't read through every post in the thread) in the Veteran/Rookie KOP Difference chart, rookies get "Bumper Material Sets, Red and Blue, 2". That, to me, debunks 3 alliances. But veterans would need a third color, too, because all they have is red and blue... this doesn't even remotely debunk that theory.

[Chris Fultz]

The 120 pound limit has been modified in the recent past, with an option for a tall, light robot or a shorter, heavy robot. You had to make the trade-offs. I think you could be 5' tall and 110 pounds or 4' tall and 120 pounds - 2007 maybe.

On the three alliance point - this years player station would support that - what if one alliance had a driver station at each end of the field. The ball collection area formed a natural barrier to "separate" this drive team from the others?

And for a three phase match - what about Auto - Human - Auto? You have to set yourself up to do some autonomous task at the very end?

I could also see the GDC going to a smaller frame size. Lots of teams are getting good at 28x38 drive bases - wide or long. A change to a smaller size would force all of the veterans back to the design table to find a new, smaller system that worked.

[Christopher149]

The 120 pound limit has been modified in the recent past, with an option for a tall, light robot or a shorter, heavy robot. You had to make the trade-offs. I think you could be 5' tall and 110 pounds or 4' tall and 120 pounds - 2007 maybe.

It was Rack 'n Roll that had this rule.

[Anthony Galea]

Everyone's making connections to the number 3, but I think it is connections to pi. The game hint hint said it might have to do with the Mesoamerican Long Calendar ending. The Mayan Calendar was a circle, and circles have to do with pi. Someone said something about the numbers in the hint adding to 31, which are the first digits in pi. The hint was also decoded using pi. I think we have a circular game piece, possibly a forced circular robot, or, as strange as it seems, a circular field.

Also, our coach said the SINGER GREAT might have to do with will.i.am, as in 2011 he was at kickoff.

Just some speculation... :)

[CalTran]

It was Rack 'n Roll that had this rule.


Class..............I......................II...... ..................III
Height 48 in (1,219 mm) 60 in (1,524 mm) 72 in (1,829 mm)
Weight 120 lb (54 kg) 110 lb (50 kg) 100 lb (45 kg)


There's the classes for Rack 'n Roll

[KevinGoneNuts]

I still think that we will have three alliances, but only 2v2v2. We can keep the field set up, but it does create something of a challenge. Your alliance partner is on the other side of the field. Sounds like a FIRST challenge to me!

[apalrd]

I could also see the GDC going to a smaller frame size. Lots of teams are getting good at 28x38 drive bases - wide or long. A change to a smaller size would force all of the veterans back to the design table to find a new, smaller system that worked.

I completely disagree.

If the frame size were to be 30" instead of 38", with similar aspect ratio, and the weight were to stay the same, many teams would only change a few dimensions and delete/modify a few wheels from their shelf designs. A days work max. It's similar to using a long-ratio shelf design for a wide-ratio robot, it really only changes the length of the main frame rails, and you might debate 6wd vs 8wd (again), and that's really it.


The bumps in 2010 arguably forced more teams to redesign drivetrains than a change in size would.


On a completely unrelated note, I really hope to see the Kinect go. It has no place at the FRC driver station, period.

[Dominator1619]

The 120 pound limit has been modified in the recent past, with an option for a tall, light robot or a shorter, heavy robot. You had to make the trade-offs. I think you could be 5' tall and 110 pounds or 4' tall and 120 pounds - 2007 maybe.

On the three alliance point - this years player station would support that - what if one alliance had a driver station at each end of the field. The ball collection area formed a natural barrier to "separate" this drive team from the others?

And for a three phase match - what about Auto - Human - Auto? You have to set yourself up to do some autonomous task at the very end?

I could also see the GDC going to a smaller frame size. Lots of teams are getting good at 28x38 drive bases - wide or long. A change to a smaller size would force all of the veterans back to the design table to find a new, smaller system that worked.

realistically, all a veteran team has to do is take the drive and put it in a smaller base. our team has typically done a tank style drive for most of the years. it would require no real effort to apply a "tank" system to a smaller footprint. not completely ruling out the possibility of a size reduction, just trying to point out that it really wouldnt be that hard to transition to the smaller bases

[Tetraman]

Here is what I have so far.

The base of the three goals contain a scale that weighs the number of smaller dodgeballs that have been scored, and the weight will be how automatic scoring is applied.

Similar to 2004, Human Players will attempt to throw their dodgeballs into the middle goals. However, the yellow Stopper Balls could be in the way.

You see, when a robot dumps off a bunch of balls to a human player on the left side of the field, that will give the opponents an incentive to "cork" the goal.

Because the yellow Stopper Balls are worth zero points at the end of the game - no matter they be on a goal or on the floor.

Picture Link: http://i47.tinypic.com/34hbgag.jpg

[drewditz]

I have been looking at the cipher for bit and I am not sure that the current translation is correct:

A rose, kissed
singer great
A dinner, missed
holding weight

There are many other possible translations. Try writing out the numbered pairs and see if you can come up with something different. It doesn't make sense that both g and t are represented by the number 97 when they could have used any other number (not already used) between 10 and 99.

What do you guys think?

[Grim Tuesday]

I still think that we will have three alliances, but only 2v2v2. We can keep the field set up, but it does create something of a challenge. Your alliance partner is on the other side of the field. Sounds like a FIRST challenge to me!

There are a number of reasons why this can never happen, primarily because, while a 2v2v2 is very interesting to play strategically (in real time strategy games), 90% of the time it ends up being 4v2 with the worse two alliances ganging up on the strongest. This always creates a nasty dynamic with wheeling and dealing in the pre-match phase and I hope the GDC foresaw this if they were thinking of modifying 3v3.

I have no evidence for this but what if they changed the robot sizes to be smaller and made alliances have 4 teams on them, and increased match time to 3 minutes. This would keep approximately the same or more matches per team while shaking up strategy significantly.

[Bryce Paputa]

Here is what I have so far.

The base of the three goals contain a scale that weighs the number of smaller dodgeballs that have been scored, and the weight will be how automatic scoring is applied.

Similar to 2004, Human Players will attempt to throw their dodgeballs into the middle goals. However, the yellow Stopper Balls could be in the way.

You see, when a robot dumps off a bunch of balls to a human player on the left side of the field, that will give the opponents an incentive to "cork" the goal.

Because the yellow Stopper Balls are worth zero points at the end of the game - no matter they be on a goal or on the floor.

Picture Link: http://i47.tinypic.com/34hbgag.jpg


How would the automatic live scoring detect the weight from robots on the scales, and from the stoppers in the goals?

[Anthony Galea]

Everyone's making connections to the number 3, but I think it is connections to pi. The game hint hint said it might have to do with the Mesoamerican Long Calendar ending. The Mayan Calendar was a circle, and circles have to do with pi. Someone said something about the numbers in the hint adding to 31, which are the first digits in pi. The hint was also decoded using pi. I think we have a circular game piece, possibly a forced circular robot, or, as strange as it seems, a circular field.

Also, our coach said the SINGER GREAT might have to do with will.i.am, as in 2011 he was at kickoff.

Just some speculation... :)

[jtechau]

I think a couple of you are missing the point on the challenge of building a robot with a smaller frame size. For one thing, many teams practice designing and building the "standard" size frame in the off season (or, even though it's against the rules, intentionally or unintentionally copy a reference design they built in the off season or past years), and so they'll have to re-think the design if a new size is announced.

But more importantly, you're thinking only of the robot base and drive train. For example, the control system is not shrinking, and will have to fit within a smaller frame. Same goes for motors, gearboxes, compressors, and anything else you've had to squeeze into your available space. If the game calls for a complex mechanism internal to the robot, a smaller frame would definitely by a challenge.

[Clinton Bolinger]

Looking at the 3 modes of the game.

Stage 1 = Autonomous
Stage 2 = Teleoperated
Stage 3 = Kinect Mode (or Hybrid Mode)

-Clinton-

[AceLucky]

Could be

[Doug G]

Looking at the 3 modes of the game.

Stage 1 = Autonomous
Stage 2 = Teleoperated
Stage 3 = Kinect Mode (or Hybrid Mode)

-Clinton-

Now that's sounds like a realistic way to interpret the hint... In my experience, the hints are never about the game or game objects, usually it's something more obscure where even if you figured it out, it gives no advantage.

I would think the Kinect must play a bigger role in the game than last year. If I were FIRST, I'd be really disappointed if a major sponsor like Microsoft donated an item to each team, only to have it not used by 99% of teams.

I just can't envision 6 teams trying to use it at the same time, perhaps like Clinton says, there will be a Kinect mode this year and one robot from each alliance battle for some final bonus points at the end.

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm just going to leave this here...

http://www.andymark.com/ToughBox-p/am-2388.htm

A 3 motor gearbox. Generally, Toughboxes are used with CIM's. So are we going to get 6 CIM drive trains this year? Are we going to need something that requires 3 CIMs in one gearbox worth of lifting? Holding weight? Game Title: Do You Even Lift, Bro

[Dominator1619]

I'm just going to leave this here...

http://www.andymark.com/ToughBox-p/am-2388.htm

A 3 motor gearbox. Generally, Toughboxes are used with CIM's. So are we going to get 6 CIM drive trains this year? Are we going to need something that requires 3 CIMs in one gearbox worth of lifting? Holding weight? Game Title: Do You Even Lift, Bro

http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/gearboxes/single-speed-single-reduction.html

kinda makes those threes keep coming up

[Secretspy97]

A 3 motor gearbox. Generally, Toughboxes are used with CIM's. So are we going to get 6 CIM drive trains this year? Are we going to need something that requires 3 CIMs in one gearbox worth of lifting? Holding weight? Game Title: Do You Even Lift, Bro

Rick Astley:
Never gonna give you up
Never gonna let you down
Never gonna run around and desert you

[Kevin Sevcik]

I just thought I'd remind/inform everyone in the thread about how stupendously complicated it is to do a 3 "alliance" elimination. So I'll link to the elimination brackets from '98 Nationals, a 1v1v1 game:
98 Nationals Bracket 1 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/22268)
98 Nationals Bracket 2a (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/22269)
98 Nationals Bracket 2b (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/22270)

Yes, that's made extra complicated by the sheer number of teams that were in elims, but it honestly doesn't get that much simpler even at a regional:

98 New England Bracket (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/22117)

[CrazyHorse]

I've been thinking this and holding off just so I could develope it.

Everybody is flipping out about three alliances and saying its not possible for two reasons:
1. No yellow bumper material in the KoP.
2. The field won't support 3 alliances.

Well, to solve problem one, as stated, veteran teams would need yellow/white bumper material too, so it wouldn't be listed as a diference.

Secondly, what if we have been taking the Rick Astley hint all wrong and the pushpins tell us more than we have been seeing? That picture is a rectangle, the field is a rectangle. Maybe the GDC was telling us how they would lay out the driver's stations on the field. Red on one side, blue and yellow/white on the other with a barrier between. That means they wouldn't have to change the field anymore than the typical year-to-year changes.

Feedback on this is much appreciated. Thanks :)

[billylo]

Borrowing a page from http://www.sugobot.com ? Would be fun to have a autonomous or kinect driven end game like this...

Billy.

[pandamonium]

Karomata came up with a concept that hasn't been discussed ceiling

This is the hint:

31 88274153, 622341415326

412383975388 9788533197

31 262383835388, 332341415326

93276426238397 995323979397

Which somebody was able to turn into this:

A ROSE, KISSED
SINGER GREAT
A DINNER, MISSED
HOLDING WEIGHT

Now, from that we have been able to deduce that the first 2 lines refer to a song by Seal, and so while thinking about that, I thought about the different plays on words with seal. I kept going through words like seal-ed, seal-proof, seal-ling. Then using ceiling,

weighs being held from the ceiling that robots have to STAND UP to get

[DampRobot]

Usually I don't post on this type of thread, but, well, here goes nothing.

Three is the recurring number. No one denies that. (I especially like the 12/21/12 release date clue.) I think we can safely say that there will not be three alliances, as indicated from the bumper material,the difficulty setting up the field and creating eliminations, etc.

Aren't we missing something huge? I haven't read every single post on this thread, but I don't thing anyone's mentioned yet the possibility that we could be doing a replay of Triple Play.

Here's why it makes sense.

One, the hints consistently point to three. Tetras, three by three scoring grid, three robots per alliance for the first time, etc were all features of 2005. 'Nuff said.

Two, we haven't had an "arm game" (or what most people would consider an "arm game") in a year. The GDC likes to mix it up, and since 2005 (what many would consider the beginning of the modern FRC era) arm games have frequently followed shooter games, like 2007 and 2006, or 2011 and 2012. I guess they don't want us to be able to refine one design for too many years in a row (at least in terms of the manipulator). 2005 was an arm game, and the time is ripe for an arm game in 2013.

Three, it follows the much-debated recent pattern of "going one year back." 2011 "copied" 2007, and 2012 copied 2006, which leads me to suspect that the 2013 game will be similar to the 2005 game.

Other ideas, like changing match length, schedule, or frame size seem a little too speculative for me to comment on. I'll only venture that the GDC has a tenancy to stick to what works.

So, here's what I'm thinking for the 2013 game: the return of 2005. Probably a 3x3 scoring grid, possibly tetras and certainly a 3 robot alliance (although that shouldn't surprise anyone).

[CrazyHorse]

Three is the recurring number. No one denies that. (I especially like the 12/21/12 release date clue.) I think we can safely say that there will not be three alliances, as indicated from the bumper material,the difficulty setting up the field and creating eliminations, etc
....
Two, we haven't had an "arm game" (or what most people would consider an "arm game") in a year. The GDC likes to mix it up, and since 2005 (what many would consider the beginning of the modern FRC era) arm games have frequently followed shooter games, like 2007 and 2006, or 2011 and 2012. I guess they don't want us to be able to refine one design for too many years in a row (at least in terms of the manipulator). 2005 was an arm game, and the time is ripe for an arm game in 2013.
......
So, here's what I'm thinking for the 2013 game: the return of 2005. Probably a 3x3 scoring grid, possibly tetras and certainly a 3 robot alliance (although that shouldn't surprise anyone).

Well, a few things. The only thing that I see stopping the three alliances is the elim schedule. (See my above post about bumpers and field).
Secondly, 2011 was an arm game, with a scoring grid (Logomotion). The GDC wouldn't recycle a game that they did a year ago.

[Zeromonkey]

Someone mentioned this a little earlier, but no one really jumped on it or said anything about it. Everyone is looking at the number 3 and thinking "Three Alliances" and "Three distinctive parts of the game" and "Three Minute Games". Although I do agree with some of these, what about three different game pieces in the game? In Rebound Rumble's Kickoff video, they threw game pieces from past years across the theme and I know my team members were thinking it was going to be a mix of different games. What if they did that this year? Something to ponder...

Also everyone is thinking water game. With actual water. What if it was just water themed? We have determined the hint refers to Seal and have found other references to water, what if it is just water themed?

Going back to what I said earlier, maybe the game pieces are a "Log" (a large cylindrical piece) a "Coconut" (a ball) and an intertube/ beach ball. This would definitely be an interesting game and different for teams to work with different weights and sizes of game pieces.

Just some ideas to think about.

[gabrielau23]

Well, a few things. The only thing that I see stopping the three alliances is the elim schedule. (See my above post about bumpers and field).
Secondly, 2011 was an arm game, with a scoring grid (Logomotion). The GDC wouldn't recycle a game that they did a year ago.

Yeah, they would. I made an excel graph plotting game pieces (misc., tubes, and balls (big or small)), and it I thought we may be due for a tube game. While I may not be right, we could see another arm game. I can't find a way to upload it though.
Here's how I did it. I went back in time to the FIRST website, and categorized each game piece as 1, 2, or 3. Ball = 1, Tube = 2, and Misc. = 3. Connect all the dots. If you slit it down the middle, fold the left side (older) down, and then fold across to the right, it will match up perfectly. The next predicted game piece is a tube. For further proof, in 2009 they used balls. 2010, balls. 2011, tubes. 2012, balls. 2008, balls. 2007, tubes. 2006, balls. 2005, misc. So another way of looking at it is that this year we will have a miscellaneous game piece, although you could "technically" consider Lunacy a miscellaneous game piece.

[JB987]

Usually I don't post on this type of thread, but, well, here goes nothing.

Three is the recurring number. No one denies that. (I especially like the 12/21/12 release date clue.) I think we can safely say that there will not be three alliances, as indicated from the bumper material,the difficulty setting up the field and creating eliminations, etc.

Aren't we missing something huge? I haven't read every single post on this thread, but I don't thing anyone's mentioned yet the possibility that we could be doing a replay of Triple Play.

Here's why it makes sense.

One, the hints consistently point to three. Tetras, three by three scoring grid, three robots per alliance for the first time, etc were all features of 2005. 'Nuff said.

Two, we haven't had an "arm game" (or what most people would consider an "arm game") in a year. The GDC likes to mix it up, and since 2005 (what many would consider the beginning of the modern FRC era) arm games have frequently followed shooter games, like 2007 and 2006, or 2011 and 2012. I guess they don't want us to be able to refine one design for too many years in a row (at least in terms of the manipulator). 2005 was an arm game, and the time is ripe for an arm game in 2013.

Three, it follows the much-debated recent pattern of "going one year back." 2011 "copied" 2007, and 2012 copied 2006, which leads me to suspect that the 2013 game will be similar to the 2005 game.

Other ideas, like changing match length, schedule, or frame size seem a little too speculative for me to comment on. I'll only venture that the GDC has a tenancy to stick to what works.

So, here's what I'm thinking for the 2013 game: the return of 2005. Probably a 3x3 scoring grid, possibly tetras and certainly a 3 robot alliance (although that shouldn't surprise anyone).

Check out my post #267

[nuggetsyl]

Stop worring guys I figured it out, it's aim high with footballs. ;) Of coarse this has been my guess since 07. That and i got video of the playing feild I posted it here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

[Gregor]

Stop worring guys I figured it out, it's aim high with footballs. ;) Of coarse this has been my guess since 07. That and i got video of the playing feild I posted it here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

You sir are fired.

[wasayanwer97]

Usually I don't post on this type of thread, but, well, here goes nothing.

Three is the recurring number. No one denies that. (I especially like the 12/21/12 release date clue.) I think we can safely say that there will not be three alliances, as indicated from the bumper material,the difficulty setting up the field and creating eliminations, etc.

Aren't we missing something huge? I haven't read every single post on this thread, but I don't thing anyone's mentioned yet the possibility that we could be doing a replay of Triple Play.

Here's why it makes sense.

One, the hints consistently point to three. Tetras, three by three scoring grid, three robots per alliance for the first time, etc were all features of 2005. 'Nuff said.

Two, we haven't had an "arm game" (or what most people would consider an "arm game") in a year. The GDC likes to mix it up, and since 2005 (what many would consider the beginning of the modern FRC era) arm games have frequently followed shooter games, like 2007 and 2006, or 2011 and 2012. I guess they don't want us to be able to refine one design for too many years in a row (at least in terms of the manipulator). 2005 was an arm game, and the time is ripe for an arm game in 2013.

Three, it follows the much-debated recent pattern of "going one year back." 2011 "copied" 2007, and 2012 copied 2006, which leads me to suspect that the 2013 game will be similar to the 2005 game.

Other ideas, like changing match length, schedule, or frame size seem a little too speculative for me to comment on. I'll only venture that the GDC has a tenancy to stick to what works.

So, here's what I'm thinking for the 2013 game: the return of 2005. Probably a 3x3 scoring grid, possibly tetras and certainly a 3 robot alliance (although that shouldn't surprise anyone).

I have been thinking the same for a long time now.

In case any of you missed it, the 2005 kit chassis is for sale on VexPro

http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/chassis-and-framing/2005-kitbot-chassis-components.html

[1086VEX]

i think most points have been covered at this point. i think the first 2 lines refer to the 3 grammys won by seal to go along with the other 3's in the clue. my guess is that this refers to the game name in same way (triple replay?! with the past 2 years i wouldnt put it past FIRST) or a feature of the game (3 zones or something like that). not much else to get from the 3's.

the holding weight along with the AM 3 motor gearboxes and the "never gonna let you down" of rick astley points toward to a lifting game such as 07.

the one thing that i didnt see touched on much is the "dinner missed". my best guess for that is that there will be multiple end games where choosing to lift may prevent you from doing another, whatever it is (multiplier ball/tetra that only scored during allotted lift time for example). this would balance out lifting and could lead to several strategies where a lifting alliance could be beat by a non lifting alliance. this would definitely be targeted towards the regional level where lifting bots are in short supply making the contest more competitive.

thats my 2 cents
-Alex

[Robo Hamsters]

I have been thinking the same for a long time now.

In case any of you missed it, the 2005 kit chassis is for sale on VexPro

http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexpro/chassis-and-framing/2005-kitbot-chassis-components.html

Maybe Triple Play with the Lunacy Surface?

[runneals]

Stop worring guys I figured it out, it's aim high with footballs. ;) Of coarse this has been my guess since 07. That and i got video of the playing feild I posted it here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

nice one! :) You got me :/ Doh!

[IndySam]

Nobody has mentioned that the song was the theme for Batman Forever.

[DMetalKong]

A ROSE, KISSED
SINGER GREAT


I feel like most people agree that this unequivocally refers to 'Seal'. But then what of the second half of the rhyme?


A DINNER, MISSED
HOLDING WEIGHT


What if this does not refer to not a person, but a thing. For example, what type of table does not go to dinner, but still holds weight? Such as a Foosball table, or an end table. Arguably, this is a bit of a stretch, because I am getting nothing from 'Seal Table'. However, I feel like there is some reference missing from the second half that will just click when someone gets it.

[jtechau]

i got video of the playing feild I posted it here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

:)

I hope others get the message that I think you're making. It's been my opinion all along that the Rick Astley photo is nothing more than Frank rickrolling the whole FRC community.

Of course, all the wild speculation here just adds to the fun. :)

[Eagletron]

I think it will be played like The Mayan Ball Game. Played on a rectangular field, with alliance partners. The goal is to work together as a team in order to put a ball through a hoop high off the ground without using your hands. If the ball touches the ground before getting into the hoop, game is over, or, ball is dead.
In this game you are competing against the other teams for the win by working cooperatively with your alliance team. FIRST likes this!

[dellagd]

I think it will be played like The Mayan Ball Game. Played on a rectangular field, with alliance partners. The goal is to work together as a team in order to put a ball through a hoop high off the ground without using your hands. If the ball touches the ground before getting into the hoop, game is over, or, ball is dead.
In this game you are competing against the other teams for the win by working cooperatively with your alliance team. FIRST likes this!

But in that type of game you are almost completely reliant on your alliance partners for all of the match. While I do agree that FIRST likes coopertition, I feel something like that just puts your fate too much in the hands of whatever computer creates the match schedule and your alliance partners.

[tsullivan]

This hint was labeled "Hint #3" and we can assume that the photo of Rick Astley was the first hint, but does anybody know what the second hint was?

[Twest3259]

My thoughts on the significance of the number three in the hints up til now is that one of the game pieces will be Cubes. which leads me to think that the other game pieces if any will be a triangular pyramid, and a ball, corresponding to the FIRST logo, and maybe working off of the mayan game there are three types of goals that you have to put each game piece into to score points.

[Karthik]

Let's be honest. FIRST game hints can be kind of lame and pointless. I usually avoid them like the plague. However this year I'm intrigued by a couple parts.

1. The ciphertext of the hint consists of the first 52 digits of Pi. Kudos to everyone who figured this out on their own, and also to the GDC for using substitution scheme that looks considerably harder than it actually is to decrypt.

(Of course, consider a different possibility. In cryptography, if you can break a code/cipher really easily, it often has meant that someone has intentionally tried to lead you down the wrong road to distract you.)

2. There's lots of speculation that the first two lines of the decrypted poem refer to the 90's song "Kiss From A Rose" by Seal. I really hope this is true, just because it means that someone on the GDC enjoys 90's pop culture as much as I do. Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMD2TwRvuoU

As mentioned by a few of you, this song was on the Batman Forever soundtrack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_Forever_%28soundtrack%29), which is a fairly underrated album. The roster of artists is pretty darn impressive, spreading the gamut of musical genres. U2, Method Man of the Wu-Tang Clan, Michael Hutchence of INXS, Brandy, Massive Attack, Seal, etc. Kiss From A Rose went on to win multiple Grammys, while Seal went on to bigger and better things, namely marrying Heidi Klum.

As for Batman Forever, I highly suggest that those of you who've grown up on the Christopher Nolan Batman trilogy, go and check this movie out. It's pretty much the exact opposite of the new Batman movies. It's more of a comedy than an action movie (as suggested by Jim Carrey's presence in the film), and seems downright campy by today's standards.

What does any of this have to do with the actual game hint? Probably nothing at all. Game Hints are usually lame and pointless; I just wanted to had some context to the discussion.

[Eagletron]

On reading some of the other posts, it may work. There is a ball that climbs until it finally goes into a hoop. This works with placing heavy blocks onto a scale. Each alliance partner can do this and help the team. When the scale reaches it's limit, the ball rolls into the hoop. So, no one is touching the ball, yet, all work together by putting on weights.

[hobbes20xxx]

I have had suspicions that recently the games alternate between a "concept" game and an actual sports game.

2007: Rack 'n Roll
2008: Overdrive (NASCAR)
2009: Lunacy
2010: Breakaway (Soccer)
2011: Logomotion
2012: Rebound Rumble (Basketball)
2013: .....

[dellagd]

I have had suspicions that recently the games alternate between a "concept" game and an actual sports game.

2007: Rack 'n Roll
2008: Overdrive (NASCAR)
2009: Lunacy
2010: Breakaway (Soccer)
2011: Logomotion
2012: Rebound Rumble (Basketball)
2013: .....

Weather or not this is true, at the GDC FRC live thing at champs, they openly denounced this.

[Sean Raia]

Nobody has mentioned that the song was the theme for Batman Forever.

We have.
We also considered that the last two lines could point to the singer MEATLOAF, who's "Bat out of Hell" album was very popular.

Bat.... Baseball....3.... Triple Play?

I deserve a cookie.

[279 EMPIE]

Has anyone considered these numbers to have something to do with the Mesoamerican Long Count calendar. Because the second and third hint could be put together.

[jar24]

would you care to elaborate on the Mesoamerican Long Count calendar

[jason701802]

I think this is fitting:

http://www.foxtrot.com/comics/2012-12-23-656d1c3c.gif

[Roger]

jason701802: I was thinking that too, when I saw the second panel in the newspaper. Perhaps Monday XKCD will have something too?

This baseball theme: running bases; home runs; pitcher vs batter. "I don't know -- Third Base!" Three strikes yer out? Would the field refs be wearing chest protectors instead of striped shirts? "Strike Zone!" Sounds like a good game.

I agree with Karthik that "The Hint" only gives two weeks of fun speculation.

Nobody has mentioned that the song was the theme for Batman Forever.Not in so many words (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1203811&postcount=97):
It could be both Seal, and Meatloaf.
I don't believe that's what they were going for, but maybe there is something in common between the two singers.
Both bats! (Batman Forever and Bat out of Hell)

We also considered that the last two lines could point to the singer MEATLOAF, who's "Bat out of Hell" album was very popular.

Bat.... Baseball....3.... Triple Play?

I deserve a cookie.Mmmm ... cookies.... :)

[akoscielski3]

I am going to guess that the significance of the three is that it is the value of points given for the "goals" or what ever it would be.

[|DELTA|]

I have had suspicions that recently the games alternate between a "concept" game and an actual sports game.

2007: Rack 'n Roll
2008: Overdrive (NASCAR)
2009: Lunacy
2010: Breakaway (Soccer)
2011: Logomotion
2012: Rebound Rumble (Basketball)
2013: .....

This is a pretty interesting notion, but isn't that kinda like the sport-nonsport and ball-nonball general rules?

[|DELTA|]

I am going to guess that the significance of the three is that it is the value of points given for the "goals" or what ever it would be.

Sounds reasonable...

[Calvin Hartley]

3 is obviously a very common occurrence this year. This is probably a stretch; but going off of 3...

The U.S. Billboard Hot 100 #3 hit of 1993 was "Can't Help Falling in Love" by UB40. The lyrics of that song are:

Wise men say - Only fools rush in, [Possible warning about strategy?]
But I can't help falling in love with you.

Shall I stay - Would it be a sin,
But I can't help falling* in love with you.

As the river flows
gently to the sea [Water Game!!!]
Darling so we go
some things were meant to be

Take my hand - Take my whole life too,
But I can't help falling* in love with you. [*Falling - reminds me of up/down (from Rick Astley "hint"]

I can't help falling* in love with you [This line is repeated 3 times at the end of the song.]

I understand that this is very far fetched... I myself even doubt it's intentional, but who knows? This is just the fruits of an hour long drive on Friday night with two FIRSTers and two other guys up to the challenge... was good to have them there at a different viewpoint. (Because they're not involved with FIRST).

[Mr_D_Mentor]

Take two key words from the Rick Astley song and a word associated with pi and you get "Up, Down & A Round"

[dellagd]

The only re-occurring thing that I can draw something about the game from (Three is re-occurring, but it doesnt really mean anything at this point) is the constant mentioning of lifting, falling, or holding. I really think we will have a end game circa 2007 Rack n' Roll of lifting your opponents. Anything else said I really havent seen much evidence for.

As for the lifting:

-Rack n' Roll is similar to Rick Roll
-This hint mentions "Holding Weight"
-Rick Astley says "Never gonna let you down"
-Many mentions of falling from Seal

[jar24]

they could also be retrying the end game of lifting your alliance partners like in breakaway (2010)

[ivers123]

Has it accrued to anyone that the reason they are calling the second game hint the THIRD game hint is probably because it is another hint about three of something? Third hint=3 important
Makes sense to me.

[jar24]

The only re-occurring thing that I can draw something about the game from (Three is re-occurring, but it doesnt really mean anything at this point) is the constant mentioning of lifting, falling, or holding. I really think we will have a end game circa 2007 Rack n' Roll of lifting your opponents. Anything else said I really havent seen much evidence for.

As for the lifting:

-Rack n' Roll is similar to Rick Roll
-This hint mentions "Holding Weight"
-Rick Astley says "Never gonna let you down"
-Many mentions of falling from Seal
they could also be retrying the end game of brake away (2010)

[KelliV]

Perhaps the Pi can refer to Raspberry Pi. I have seen a few people talking about applications in FIRST on their forums and their company is all about educational applications. It would only make sense to blend the two.

[ttldomination]

Looks like this hint is getting stale. Time for hint number != 3.

- Sunny G.

[F22Rapture]

Perhaps the Pi can refer to Raspberry Pi. I have seen a few people talking about applications in FIRST on their forums and their company is all about educational applications. It would only make sense to blend the two.

This theory I could get on board with

But unless there's some other hidden reference, it's unlikely that's what they were referencing. IMO of course.

[|DELTA|]

Take two key words from the Rick Astley song and a word associated with pi and you get "Up, Down & A Round"

But what would be the game to go with this terrifying name? I shuddered when i saw this...

[|DELTA|]

This is brilliant. This would also be in the realm of what I was thinking. Stacking or moving heavy objects of some sort, possibly different shapes and/or weights.

[McGurky]

Perhaps the Pi can refer to Raspberry Pi. I have seen a few people talking about applications in FIRST on their forums and their company is all about educational applications. It would only make sense to blend the two.

If this were to be the case, teams would be beta testing it and we would know about it.

But I would be up for it :)

[dellagd]

If this were to be the case, teams would be beta testing it and we would know about it.

But I would be up for it :)

The raspberry pi is great. We at 2607 have already been testing with it for our 2013 season. The small little board can do some pretty useful stuff. Just because they dont give it to you doesnt mean its not great for a FRC robot :)

But I agree, all of the morals of the Raspberry Pi foundation and FIRST jive. It wouldnt surprise me. Infact, thier missions are pretty similar (Like the place that makes the Pi's is a foundation, not a Inc. or LLC)

[Scott L.]

For all those Pi fans out there, Pi is.....
3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 1058209 74944592307816406286208998628034825342117067982148 08651 32823066470938446095505822317253594081284811174502 84102 70193852110555964462294895493038196442881097566593 34461 28475648233786783165271201909145648566923460348610 45432 66482133936072602491412737245870066063155881748815 20920 96282925409171536436789259036001133053054882046652 13841 46951941511609433057270365759591953092186117381932 61179 31051185480744623799627495673518857527248912279381 83011 94912983367336244065664308602139494639522473719070 21798 60943702770539217176293176752384674818467669405132 00056 81271452635608277857713427577896091736371787214684 40901 22495343014654958537105079227968925892354201995611 21290 21960864034418159813629774771309960518707211349999 99837 29780499510597317328160963185950244594553469083026 42522 30825334468503526193118817101000313783875288658753 32083 81420617177669147303598253490428755468731159562863 88235 37875937519577818577805321712268066130019278766111 95909 21642019893809525720106548586327886593615338182796 82303 01952035301852968995773622599413891249721775283479 13151 55748572424541506959508295331168617278558890750983 81754 63746493931925506040092770167113900984882401285836 16035 63707660104710181942955596198946767837449448255379 77472 68471040475346462080466842590694912933136770289891 52104 75216205696602405803815019351125338243003558764024 74964 73263914199272604269922796782354781636009341721641 21992 45863150302861829745557067498385054945885869269956 90927 21079750930295532116534498720275596023648066549911 98818 34797753566369807426542527862551818417574672890977 77279 38000816470600161452491921732172147723501414419735 68548 16136115735255213347574184946843852332390739414333 45477 62416862518983569485562099219222184272550254256887 67179 04946016534668049886272327917860857843838279679766 81454 10095388378636095068006422512520511739298489608412 84886 26945604241965285022210661186306744278622039194945 04712 37137869609563643719172874677646575739624138908658 32645 99581339047802759009946576407895126946839835259570 98258 22620522489407726719478268482601476990902640136394 43745 53050682034962524517493996514314298091906592509372 21696 46151570985838741059788595977297549893016175392846 81382
:D

[Greg McKaskle]

For all those Pi fans out there, Pi is.....

Well, ..., approximately.

Greg McKaskle

[akoscielski3]

Who ever posted pi please delete it... Its not that funny when you are trying to see real posts.

[Richard Wallace]

For all those Pi fans out there, Pi is.....

3.1415926... <snip>

:DOk, like a slapstick comedy, this thread has run its course, culminating with a pi in the face.

[Bill_B]

But he used the wrong smilie at the end. :p :rolleyes:

After a mention of raspberry pi he shoulda posted a raspberry. (http://www.thesneeze.com/mt-archives/000339.php)

[billbo911]

A ROSE, KISSED
SINGER GREAT


I feel like most people agree that this unequivocally refers to 'Seal'. But then what of the second half of the rhyme?


A DINNER, MISSED
HOLDING WEIGHT


........

I agree with DMetalKong, there still is a big piece of this riddle with no reasonable answer. Once that answer is found then the two pieces solved together "should" help us figure out what the game might be.

So,
"A DINNER, MISSED
HOLDING WEIGHT"

What is this?

[holygrail]

I think that does win the award for the longest CD post I have ever seen. Took me forever to readthe whole thing.

[Wayne TenBrink]

I think that does win the award for the longest CD post I have ever seen. Took me forever to readthe whole thing.

Yeah, and he quit right when it was getting to the good part. I'll have to wait until they make make it into a movie to see how it ends.

Richard was right. 23 pages of comments. Nothing conclusive (ase usual). And it all comes down to a pi in the face.

[Shifter]

A rose, kissed = Seal

Singer great = Seal appeared on American Idol (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj5VI9KEpbM)and critiqued a rendition of Kiss from a Rose by Jack Black

12/21 = Jack Black/Black Jack

connection to robotics = Jack Black will be involved in the upcoming movie "How to Survive a Robot Uprising (http://www.getthebigpicture.net/blog/2010/10/25/jack-black-to-star-in-how-to-survive-a-robot-uprising.html)" based on a book by roboticist Daniel Wilson (http://robotuprising.com/).

21 = blackjack

"www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-kit-of-arts-info-and-actual-game-hint" = music (Rick Astley, Seal), literature (Daniel Wilson), movies (Speilberg to direct Robopocalypse (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-kit-of-arts-info-and-an-actual-game-hint) by Daniel Wilson for release in 2013)

pi = circular playing pieces = chips in stacks (red, blue, gold)


"Seal the Deal"


...and yes, each team will decide how many qualification points to wager on each of their preliminary matches.

[Libby K]

Ok, like a slapstick comedy, this thread has run its course, culminating with a pi in the face.

This is one of the first puns/jokes/whatever that I've seen on CD that doesn't make me immediately facepalm.

Well done, good sir.

[CLandrum3081]

I like how this went from a game hint thread to a pi thread. :]

In all seriousness, I'm curious about what "A DINNER, MISSED/HOLDING WEIGHT" means. :confused:

One thought is that bucket of fish - maybe that means that one part of the game will be as easy as "shooting fish in a barrel (or, in this case, a bucket - even easier?". And by easy, I mean easy by FIRST standards - something every team can do and should do to earn some points.

The second part, if we want to take it literally, would mean holding a very heavy object - not so easy. Probably the endgame involving robots lifting each other or some other heavy thing. :eek:

The game hint rhymes, so maybe the game name will rhyme (it has before). Someone earlier (sorry for lack of quote) said "Seal the Deal". If this is the game name, perhaps one needs the endgame to "Seal" points that were earned during the "easy" part of the game.

Just my $0.02. This is my first go at even looking at game hints so... might be totally off the mark. :o

[Littleboy]

Maybe "A DINNER, MISSED/HOLDING WEIGHT" is talking about the strategy required to succeed. Perhaps what looks like it will be the best to do to get the most points, isn't necessary to be good. If we miss those points, perhaps we will still be able to earn the same amount of points doing something else?

[Botwoon]

...and yes, each team will decide how many qualification points to wager on each of their preliminary matches.

That sounds like a good idea in theory, but in practice I think it would end up more along the lines of "1114 is on my team in this match? BETTER STACK ALL MY POINTS NOW"

I'm putting my bets on one part of the game involving collecting more game pieces than the other team, and either handing them off to another robot or moving them to a central goal. The weight of these game pieces, once collected, is in some way important.

[Zeromonkey]

Awhile back someone said something about the presence of 3 meaning that instead of "3 minute games" and "3 different alliances" that it was 3 different game pieces.

This could potentially be very interesting.

This could mean the GDC has three completely different game pieces so that one robot can't do it all. This would make alliance picking a lot more interesting because you would want a 2 robots that can do the tasks you can't.

I don't know, just an idea.

And, just saying, everyone is thinking a game with real water. What if it is just water themed? (Like pirates, beach party, snow?, etc.)

Happy Holidays everyone!

[billbo911]

....
I'm putting my bets on one part of the game involving collecting more game pieces than the other team, and either handing them off to another robot or moving them to a central goal. The weight of these game pieces, once collected, is in some way important.

Remember, the first half of the clue seems to points to "Seal". And what are Seals well known for? Balancing. Balancing objects on their nose, or balancing themselves on their flippers.

"A DINNER MISSED, HOLDING WEIGHT"
Quite often dinner is the largest meal of the day. Missing it may mean loosing out on the biggest caloric intake of the day. In the past couple years, the End Game has been a HUGE determining factor in the outcome of a match.
I'm guessing that the End Game this year may not be any different.

To put the clue into play here:

The End Game will have a Balance Platform/Scale in the middle. The End Game is won by the Alliance that places, or stacks, the most weight on their side, thus tipping the scale in their favor. If you're caught "HOLDING WEIGHT", you miss "DINNER", or, the bonus points.

[George1902]

The first two lines of the clue is the subject (a seal), and the second two lines refer to what the seal is doing (unable to eat because it's holding an object with its snout).

The wild speculation is fun, so by all means continue. But for me, the clue was solved (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1203852&postcount=122) many pages ago (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1203934&postcount=170).

Now, how do we interpret this hint? I predict a large ball (trackball?) will have to be elevated to score points, either to be placed upon on a high goal or by a robot sitting in a safe zone for the endgame points (each alliance elevates their opponent's ball for co-opertition points?).

[stewie2013]

ok so what i think is maybe tripple play again due to the recuring #3 the most repeted number in the hole hint is 3 so triple play ?and also in 2005 (tripple play year) the robots where smaller that explains the small kit frame and the hint was decoded to A ROSE, KISSED
SINGER GREAT
A DINNER, MISSED
HOLDING WEIGHT
the last line makes me think it is even more

[Bob Steele]

I am guessing that the robot sizes have decreased in order to fit in the sizing boxes with the bumpers on. A 30-31" robot frame with bumpers would fit in the old 38" box. It would then also seem likely that the width would do the same but that makes for a particularly narrow robot. 20"??

That does not seem likely unless the boxes were rebuilt square which would give the robot a 30 X 30 configuration...

plus bumpers giving something like the old 38 on all sides

just my 2 cents. I guess we will find out Jan 5th

See you all on the field!!

[cmrnpizzo14]

First off...
"This is one of the first puns/jokes/whatever that I've seen on CD that doesn't make me immediately facepalm.

Well done, good sir."
Thank you Libby.

Next, I think that we are digressing from the actual hint a bit to much. While Pi is relevant, I don't think that we really needed that post..... Also, I think that we are stretching this hint a bit too far. While the GDC hints are often vague, they usually have a fairly direct correlation, the trick is just finding it. With the exception of the "moonfish" in '09, I think that most of the hints haven't required so much stretching.

I also think that we are placing too much weight in interpreting the hint as a clue to the actual gameplay. I don't remember a hint that actually told us how the game would be played. Most of the time, the hints reference part of the game that is insignificant, such as the name (Logomotion) or the field elements (Breakaway & Rack and Roll).

Also, I don't think that some of these suggestions are even plausible. 2v2v2 games would be cool, but take one look at the elimination bracket and I think that all of us would rather stick with the traditional 3v3. Betting points on games? As fun as that may be, that quickly would end poorly too (See the 1114 comment). Most regionals do not have enough parity in the competition to enable such a system. Teams would see that their alliance was far superior than their opponents and immediately jump to betting all points. Barring a red card, those teams would jump up far too high in the standings. Also, imagine trying to keep track of how many points each team bets, that is just begging for a mistake.

I think that we are on the right track with the cryptogram approach. The seal references might or might not be intentional. We probably should accept that we might be on the entirely wrong track with this. We should probably try and use this hint to come up with some sort of game detail that is not actual gameplay.

If you want to determine how the game actually would be played, I recommend that you see the post referring to FIRST trends over the years.
2011 resembled 2007
2012 resembled 2006
2013 will resemble 2005?

It is true that FIRST seems to alternate between a sport and a concept game and between a ball and an object game. Seeing as last year was a sport game with a ball, it seems to show that this year will be a concept game with an object.

Also, FIRST has not used a large and unwieldy game piece in a while (Think trackballs from 2008). I think that we are due for something huge like that.

[Bill_B]

Anyone thinking, or hoping, that Seal will be at the kick-off? What does the star-tracker say about him or Will.iam on the 5th?

[DonRotolo]

While Pi is relevant, I don't think that we really needed that post.....
Agreed

[RB73]

So i just read through a majority of this thread in one day, and I think I can provide a different perspective than those who are only reading the recent posts.....

I have an idea of what the game will be:

Going off of the "fish scale" theory (first reference here:
"A DINNER, MISSED" could be refering to a picture of the same caption on flikr (It's actually the first result if you google the phrase)
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/81238501@N00/8073635501/
), we will have to hang objects (return of the tetras? References 2005) from hooks at either end of the field, these hooks will be attached to scales so as the read the weight on them. Alliances score is based off of the weight on it, rather than the game pieces, thus adding an end game bonus to robots hanging from them. The line "never gonna let you down" refers to not having the robot fall after hanging, which will obviously reduce your score. The hooks are arranged into a triangle (there's a 3). Bonus points are awarded if one of three (and another) large track balls are balanced on top of the hooks (seals balance balls on their noses)

Just my 2 cents, feel free to completely disagree

[skimoose]

A rose, kissed = Seal

Singer great = Seal

I think the second line may have been missed by all. If the clue is referring to the singer Seal, then a "Singer great" may be a reference to the "Great Seal" of which, there are two for the United States.

http://images.unurthed.com/Campbell-Great-Seal-of-the-United-States-127.jpg

This is referred to as the Second Great Seal of the United States found on the one dollar bill. It clearly shows the pyramid: are we back to tetra shapes? The latin phrase is generally translated as the "new order of the world" which could be viewed as Dean's attempt to change society, or may be referring to a major change in FIRST's FRC game. The latter could be confirmation that robot dimensions are in fact changing. A smaller robot foot print would allow for more robots on the field. Many have pointed out that three alliances is not practical, but what if FIRST is making another leap forward and we are going to 4 vs. 4? Last year's asymmetrical driver's stations had one station smaller than the other two. Was this a test to see what impact it would have on teams? Few, if any teams complained about the reduced space for the drive team. So First could conceivably fit four driver stations in the end zone. I'm not sure what that would do to the Human Player position.

The increased robots per matched has been tied to longer game times as well. Could increasing the match to 3:00 minutes be one of the changes recommended by the Einstein report? If a robot or radio were to disconnect from the field, a longer match would possibly allow that machine to reconnect before the match ended thus reducing the impact of a dead robot. Also with four robots per alliance, one dead robot still leaves an alliance functioning at 75% capacity as opposed to 66% capacity for a three robot alliance.

Also, the pyramid is topped by the all seeing eye. Is camera vision playing a major part in this year's game?

Then there is the Great Seal of the United States:

http://images.unurthed.com/Campbell-Great-Seal-of-the-United-States-129.jpg

Start with the latin phrase "e pluribus unum" which translates to "out of many, one", many robots one alliance.

Next is the radiant disk above the American bald eagle’s head the stars of the original 13 states are composed to form a Solomon’s Seal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_Solomon) symbolic of the union of soul and body, spirit and matter, or the combination of the alchemical signs for fire and water. Each of the interlaced equilateral triangles, one upward turned, the other downward, is a Pythagorean Tetractys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetractys), or ‘perfect triangle of fourness,’ of nine points, four to a side, enclosing a tenth representing the generative center. The alchemical meaning is representative of the combination of opposites and transmutation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmutation). Which could be point to a change in robot dimensions again. The tetractys also is a figure composed of ten points in four rows:

The Tetractys represented the organization of space:

the first row represented zero-dimensions (a point)
the second row represented one-dimension (a line of two points)
the third row represented two-dimensions (a plane defined by a triangle of three points)
the fourth row represented three-dimensions (a tetrahedron defined by four points)

So a tetrahedron game piece is a possibility.

Lastly, the pyramid also symbolizes a triangle or delta, which is the mathematical symbol for change.

Anyone else want to go down the Great Seal road?

[mrmummert]

We'll i don't know about you all...but i'll wait for the fourth hint that comes out January 5th before i speculate on this.

[rhinobot]

In my opinion the first hint said it all. We are all being rick rolled by the FRC community and best bet is to wait until the 5th.

[Brandon Zalinsky]

There's a margin for error, but I'm pretty sure there's a 747 leaving Heathrow tomorrow at 6:30 in the evening for Baltimore. Apparently, it's carrying the field. Not sure how that can be true, but I've only been on the case for 8 seconds.

-best TV show ever.

[Gregor]

There's a margin for error, but I'm pretty sure there's a 747 leaving Heathrow tomorrow at 6:30 in the evening for Baltimore. Apparently, it's carrying the field. Not sure how that can be true, but I've only been on the case for 8 seconds.

-best TV show ever.

What?

[Brandon Zalinsky]

What?

It's a scene from Sherlock in which Sherlock Holmes looks at a string of seemingly random numbers, and finds out, in 8 seconds, that it's referring to a plane flight that terrorists are targeting.

[rocknthehawk]

Remember, the first half of the clue seems to points to "Seal". And what are Seals well known for? Balancing. Balancing objects on their nose, or balancing themselves on their flippers.

"A DINNER MISSED, HOLDING WEIGHT"
Quite often dinner is the largest meal of the day. Missing it may mean loosing out on the biggest caloric intake of the day. In the past couple years, the End Game has been a HUGE determining factor in the outcome of a match.
I'm guessing that the End Game this year may not be any different.

To put the clue into play here:

The End Game will have a Balance Platform/Scale in the middle. The End Game is won by the Alliance that places, or stacks, the most weight on their side, thus tipping the scale in their favor. If you're caught "HOLDING WEIGHT", you miss "DINNER", or, the bonus points.


I never really involve myself too much in game hints, but, looking at this train of thought could relate to "raising the bar"....Robots were left "holding weight" (suspending from the bar in the center of the field), and aside from 190, it often meant the possibility of missing out on capping a goal. All the points have been made. Mobile goals, large balls or bonuses, timed release of game pieces.

That said, I wouldn't mind some rework of 2004 or 2005, both were great to play and watch.

[DonRotolo]

We'll i don't know about you all...but i'll wait for the fourth hint that comes out January 5th before i speculate on this.Wait, what :eek: ?
I thought Frank said the next clue is coming out 1/6? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Robo Hamsters]

Also, the pyramid is topped by the all seeing eye. Is camera vision playing a major part in this year's game?


This is very possible. When I asked RoboRealm for a copy for us to use to test the Kinect's IR vision capabilities, they gave me some interesting feedback.

RoboRealm is in the KOP for this years competition! Since you will
already have the link you can ignore the card coupon that will be in
your 'kit of parts'.

I do recommend that you have a look at the new Network Tables module
that allows for much easier communication to the CRio. Its the same
technology that SmartDashboard uses to communicate back to the driver
station. You will need Network Tables 2.0 (an upgrade from last year)
running on the CRio in order for that to work.

Look out for new tutorials specific to the 2013 just after kickoff.
There will be another new module launched to make your life easier for
the competition.

[Mr_D_Mentor]

To miss a meal is also called "fasting".

Maybe we will have to pick up something heavy and move fast.

[MikeReilly]

Any discussion regarding "holding weight"? The force to retain or hold an arrow in place?

[ksafin]

What if they split kickoff into two days?

So on January 5th you get half the game and on January 6th you'd get the second half.

I don't know how I'd hold up for that one day time gap.

GDC has mastered cliffhangers.

[MikeReilly]

Not to ignore the genius so far (have to admire the pi-ciphering), but feeling even more like there's a shooting game. "A DINNER MISSED, HOLDING WEIGHT" would easily parallel an archer going hungry when they don't release the bow.

As for the SEAL reference, that's for the other brain cell to work on.

[ENIAC]

To me, the first thing that came to mind when I heard "A DINNER, MISSED/HOLDING WEIGHT" was dumbwaiters. They can carry meals between floors, for example from a dining room or kitchen to the room of someone not attending the formal meal, and they definitely hold weight.

[bardd]

What if they split kickoff into two days?

So on January 5th you get half the game and on January 6th you'd get the second half.

I don't know how I'd hold up for that one day time gap.

GDC has mastered cliffhangers.

I can't see that happening, they have absolutely no reason to.

As for the hint, here's what I've come up with:

I agree with the theory suggesting the first two lines point to Seal. I think maybe we'll need to "seal" the scoring area to get more points (for example, with a trackball, as was suggested previously). The earlier this happens, the more points you get, so you'll have top find the balance between blocking the goal and scoring. The last two lines may suggest this as well. By blocking the goal, it "misses dinner" meaning it doesn't get anymore game pieces, yet it "holds weight" because the alliance still gets points, or rather keeps the points it would've made without "losing dinner".

Reading through what I just wrote, looks like a serious stretch... But heck, it might be right, in which case I'd feel stupid about not posting it.

Anyway, regardless of the hint, I think we'll see a return of a feature that disappeared in recent years: the center of the field being the focus of the game, both strategicly and physically (e.g. 2003's huge ramp, 2007's scoring pegs). I also agree with the common theory: this year will be an arm year. Though, I don't think this game will resemble Triple Play that much, because I don't beleave the GDC will follow the same pattern for 3 years in a row.

[Scott L.]

Could a "Dinner missed" be refering to "The Hunger Games"? ;)

[|DELTA|]

A rose, kissed = Seal

Singer great = Seal appeared on American Idol (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj5VI9KEpbM)and critiqued a rendition of Kiss from a Rose by Jack Black

12/21 = Jack Black/Black Jack

connection to robotics = Jack Black will be involved in the upcoming movie "How to Survive a Robot Uprising (http://www.getthebigpicture.net/blog/2010/10/25/jack-black-to-star-in-how-to-survive-a-robot-uprising.html)" based on a book by roboticist Daniel Wilson (http://robotuprising.com/).

21 = blackjack

"www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-kit-of-arts-info-and-actual-game-hint" = music (Rick Astley, Seal), literature (Daniel Wilson), movies (Speilberg to direct Robopocalypse (http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-kit-of-arts-info-and-an-actual-game-hint) by Daniel Wilson for release in 2013)

pi = circular playing pieces = chips in stacks (red, blue, gold)


"Seal the Deal"


...and yes, each team will decide how many qualification points to wager on each of their preliminary matches.

This almost sounds like a robotic gambling game, and I don't think FIRST would like to endorse gambling... it would be an interesting challenge though

[F22Rapture]

Could a "Dinner missed" be refering to "The Hunger Games"? ;)

That would certainly fit in with the "arts" theme

[ratdude747]

It was stated earlier, but the like about A DINNER, MISSED and HOLDING WEIGHT makes me think of collegiate wrestling. Perhaps a pushing match of some sort... Maybe robot sumo? If this was the case, the 3 motor trannies that recently came out may be of use.

Just my $0.02.

[Michael Hill]

"Holding Weight" just makes me think that at some point in the game, a robot will be completely off the ground, possibly being held by another robot or hanging....but those were already done in 2007 and 2004...

[dellagd]

"Holding Weight" just makes me think that at some point in the game, a robot will be completely off the ground, possibly being held by another robot or hanging....but those were already done in 2007 and 2004...

For the record, so was bridge balancing. Many end games have been repeated before: Lifting Yourself, lifting others. There's no reason they wouldnt do it again.

[coollint]

I think this is a reference to the 2011 ftc endgame where robots had to hold buckets as high as possible for extra points. Maybe were doing a variation of this in this years game.

[dodar]

I think this is a reference to the 2011 ftc endgame where robots had to hold buckets as high as possible for extra points. Maybe were doing a variation of this in this years game.

I doubt that FIRST would end a game where full-size FRC robots would be holding up game pieces really high as students and field reset people were on the field.

[KJGreen]

It was stated earlier, but the like about A DINNER, MISSED and HOLDING WEIGHT makes me think of collegiate wrestling. Perhaps a pushing match of some sort... Maybe robot sumo? If this was the case, the 3 motor trannies that recently came out may be of use.

Just my $0.02.

The wrestling thing makes the most sense to me. It sounds to me like a hint that the robot will need to have a lighter final weight. A dinner missed would refer to the sacrifice that would have to be made in the design process.

[coollint]

I wasnt thinking it would be exactly like the ftc endgame. I was more leaning toward it being a variation of it, like we have to lift a heavy game piece a few feet in the air or something to that effect.

[pfreivald]

I've completely figured it out:

Robots will have to move around, and also displace objects in order to score points.

What do I win?

[Richard Wallace]

... What do I win?Congratulations!

Your team gets to build its very own robot, starting January 5th. :D

[dodar]

I've completely figured it out:

Robots will have to move around, and also displace objects in order to score points.

What do I win?

You win a complete digital collection of all of Dean Kamen's FIRST speeches!

[pfreivald]

You win a complete digital collection of all of Dean Kamen's FIRST speeches!

The Redhead(tm) just came over and asked, "WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU GIGGLING ABOUT?"

Well done. Well done.

[dodar]

The Redhead(tm) just came over and asked, "WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU GIGGLING ABOUT?"

Well done. Well done.

:D

[ENIAC]

I wasnt thinking it would be exactly like the ftc endgame. I was more leaning toward it being a variation of it, like we have to lift a heavy game piece a few feet in the air or something to that effect.

I think that something like this, except where the robot pulls down on a pulley or something, a rope or somesuch, might be in the running.

[dellagd]

I wasnt thinking it would be exactly like the ftc endgame. I was more leaning toward it being a variation of it, like we have to lift a heavy game piece a few feet in the air or something to that effect.

I was would even bet against that, in the safety conscious world we are in today. Could easily crush someone's toes.

[pfreivald]

I was would even bet against that, in the safety conscious world we are in today. Could easily crush someone's toes.

In 2010 we had to lift our whole robot off the ground. In 2007 we had to lift alliance partners.

I wouldn't bet on much of anything where FIRST games are concerned (except that this year will absolutely not be a water game).

[ruacubfan2]

In 2010 we had to lift our whole robot off the ground. In 2007 we had to lift alliance partners.

I wouldn't bet on much of anything where FIRST games are concerned (except that this year will absolutely not be a water game).

So every 3 years robots have to lift robots? There's yet another pattern to consider. :p

[dodar]

In 2010 we had to lift our whole robot off the ground. In 2007 we had to lift alliance partners.

I wouldn't bet on much of anything where FIRST games are concerned (except that this year will absolutely not be a water game).

2010 was probably one of the more dangerous endgames FIRST has done in the modern-era. 2007 wasnt that sketchy because robots were on pretty darn sturdy ramps that could allow a robot to just be lifted off or roll off and they were only 12 inches off the ground.

[mrmummert]

you know...

all this speculation and ideas of what the game might be...and since
we know at least someone from the GDC reads this....its probably
giving them ideas for other games if it hasn't already.

[dellagd]

In 2010 we had to lift our whole robot off the ground. In 2007 we had to lift alliance partners.

I wouldn't bet on much of anything where FIRST games are concerned (except that this year will absolutely not be a water game).

Yeah, but in 2007 robots really wernt "lifted" by means of like a few feet.

Yes, it is possible, but Im just saying that I dont think they would. Im sure they do a pro/con analysis of each idea, and safety has to be on there.

[gabrielau23]

From talking to people in FTC, it would be a "bad" idea to completely copy the FTC endgame, as apparently people would just build incredibly tall scissor lifts that became a ridiculous source of points. Of course, there were defensive robots that would hold down other bots, but I don't think that FRC could safely do that.

[dellagd]

From talking to people in FTC, it would be a "bad" idea to completely copy the FTC endgame, as apparently people would just build incredibly tall scissor lifts that became a ridiculous source of points. Of course, there were defensive robots that would hold down other bots, but I don't think that FRC could safely do that.

+1 to this. Sounds about right

[Bill_B]

From talking to people in FTC, it would be a "bad" idea to completely copy the FTC endgame, as apparently people would just build incredibly tall scissor lifts that became a ridiculous source of points. Of course, there were defensive robots that would hold down other bots, but I don't think that FRC could safely do that.

The points were intended to be for stacked crates with balls in them, but a ruling made an elevated crate with contents score too. After that it was lifting without stacking to create the situation you mention.

[coollint]

Well then maybe if the intent was just to be holding the crates on top of your robot (thats what i could see from the video), we are just holding something heavy on top of our robots for points or for the endgame

[Robert Cawthon]

I got about halfway through the replies on this thread and then it hit me. The game piece will be a Nerf football and we need to kick them through a goal post for three (3) points. Now I need to go ahead and read the rest of the posts.

[skimoose]

"A DINNER MISSED, HOLDING WEIGHT"
Quite often dinner is the largest meal of the day. Missing it may mean loosing out on the biggest caloric intake of the day. In the past couple years, the End Game has been a HUGE determining factor in the outcome of a match.
I'm guessing that the End Game this year may not be any different.


Wait you're missing the correct placement of the comma.

"A DINNER, MISSED
HOLDING WEIGHT"

Could "a dinner" be referring to the act of dining, like a Dinner Date? So could this line be referring to "A DATE, MISSED HOLDING WEIGHT"?

What date could be missed?

With the expansion of the competition season, the former Robot Ship Day, now Stop Build Day, is only nine days before Week One competition starts. Could we be seeing an end to Stop Build Day? It's on the FRC schedule still, but that could be a red herring.

[pfreivald]

Could we be seeing an end to Stop Build Day? It's on the FRC schedule still, but that could be a red herring.

I'd rather see an end to the withholding allowance!

[Akash Rastogi]

I'd rather see an end to the withholding allowance!

Why? I'm personally a huge fan of the withholding allowance. It allowed our team to do a ton of iteration.

[Dad1279]

I'd rather see an end to the withholding allowance!

Why? I'm personally a huge fan of the withholding allowance. It allowed our team to do a ton of iteration.

I agree. Large witholding really means no stop build date. Teams can either copy more successful robots, or keep developing a practice bot, and carry in whole mechanisms.

Before witholding (and bumpers) robot designs were more varied.

[jspatz1]

Most mentors I know would like to see an end to the withholding allowance. Six weeks is enough time to ask them to donate, without turning it into a 14 week build season. The competition has become somewhat of a copying excercise now rather than an original design competition as it used to be. The withholding was originally started when the new crio-based control system was introduced, to allow teams more time work with it. I've never known what the reasoning is behind continuing it.

[pandamonium]

If we miss school aka diner for weather conditions we have a policy in place this year that allows an adional weight allowance that we can bring sealed after ship date to an event.

[Chris is me]

If we miss school aka diner for weather conditions we have a policy in place this year that allows an adional weight allowance that we can bring sealed after ship date to an event.

There has been no indication from FRC HQ on this. Where are you getting your information?

[pandamonium]

Lol I am saying that is my interpretation on the game hint. The hint can be anything

[nufmamun]

The name of the Company is Databux International Ltd. This Company will give training in advance certificate in any section of computer, technical training to development national youth by name data entry to earn money online (http://databux.us/) National Youth Development Training Centre.

Google Add sense started for money earning of many people day by day, there are lot of people who had jumped into the Google Add sense bandwagon and money earning in hundreds and even thousands, data entry to earn money online (http://earntipsinfo.blogspot.com/) thousands dollars earning from Google Add sense.

It’s absolutely possible. And it’s waiting for you. Notice something already? I did not greet you with “dear friend” or with that little piece of programming code that puts today’s date at the top of the page. That’s because I have no interest in selling you some silly “system” data entry to earn money online (http://databux.blogspot.com/)where the claims say you’ll make a lot of money with no work.

[Siri]

The withholding was originally started when the new crio-based control system was introduced, to allow teams more time work with it. I've never known what the reasoning is behind continuing it.Huh?

<R41 from 2008, R31 in 2007, and R29 in 2006>
Teams may bring a maximum of 25 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE PARTS, REPLACEMENT PARTS, and/or UPGRADE PARTS) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT at the competition site. All other FABRICATED ITEMS to be used on the ROBOT during the competition shall arrive at the competition venue packed in the shipping crate with the ROBOT.

The weight limit has varied somewhat over the years (40lb in '09, 65 in '10, 30lb in '11-12), but it's quite old.

[pfreivald]

Why? I'm personally a huge fan of the withholding allowance. It allowed our team to do a ton of iteration.

As jspatz1 said, it prevents copycatting, but it also gives mentors (and students!) a break. Even if you keep a practice robot, you're not redesigning entire systems for the weeks (and weeks and weeks) between competitions.

I know it sounds weird, but as I get older, I have a harder and harder time working ten-to-fourteen 100+ hour weeks in a row. (The Redhead(tm) also isn't a big fan of the withholding allowance. When I started FIRST, she was only alone for six and a half weeks straight.)

[shreyasjoshihts]

Have you guys seen the FTC Challenge? (I think someone may have mentioned it, but my memory might serve me wrong):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4HU3EJ-Sgc

This challenge, combined with the 3rd clue, makes me wonder if the idea of lifting weighted objects will carry over into the FRC challenge...

[skimoose]

I agree. Large witholding really means no stop build date. Teams can either copy more successful robots, or keep developing a practice bot, and carry in whole mechanisms.

Before witholding (and bumpers) robot designs were more varied.

I would disagree. The reason there are fewer varied designs in FRC now has nothing, or very very little, to do with the withholding allowance rule. The reason for fewer varied designed is the volume of game rules strangling creativity. Thinking outside the box used to be celebrated, now it is often viewed as lawyering the rules.

The GDC has used the rules to force the game to be played as they envisioned it being played. Before the rules strangled creativity, some games were pretty broken by how teams played them. Classic to this was Stack Attack. The GDC viewed this as a tote stacking game, it quickly degenerated into just knock over every stack and get on top of the ramp. Some teams removed their tote stacking mechanisms during the season emphasizing that teams had made tote stacking irrelevant.

Also, before the withholding allowance I know that several teams in several different years designed major revisions between competitions and were able to do a ground up rebuild of their robot on Thursday of a following competition or at Championships. So the withholding allowance rules didn't allow for iterations or copying, they somewhat formalized the process.

A truly competitive team will continue to improve their robot throughout the season.

[|DELTA|]

We'll i don't know about you all...but i'll wait for the fourth hint that comes out January 5th before i speculate on this.

HAHA! I second this motion!

[SenorZ]

"First" hint: Rick Astley pic/Rick Roll hint
- Rick rolling started in 2007
- FRC game in 2007: Rack 'n' Roll
- anagram of "Rick Astley" is "Rack Ye Lit"

"Second" hint: reference to Mesoamerica calendar
- 'coincidence' --> to coincide --> overlap geometrically
- calendar is round, has rings

Official hint: pi-cipher poem
First couplet --> Seal's Kiss From a Rose
- released 1994, mentions tower in first line
- FRC game in 1994: Tower Power
Second couplet --> clue to game action
- "a dinner, missed" --> missed meal, to "fast"
- "holding weight" --> to carry
- 'fast carry' could mean to haul something

From this analysis, and the repetition of the number 3 in postings, I'm guessing there will be three scoring stations, most likely a tower/rack that teams can load/dump game elements into. But opposing alliances will be able to steal points somehow, so holding elements til the end might be encouraged. The scoring towers/racks might have light indicators showing which has the higher number of game elements by weight.
Also I might have just wasted too much time thinking about all this and will be very disappointed on Kickoff day!

[dodar]

"First" hint: Rick Astley pic/Rick Roll hint
- Rick rolling started in 2007
- FRC game in 2007: Rack 'n' Roll
- anagram of "Rick Astley" is "Rack Ye Lit"

"Second" hint: reference to Mesoamerica calendar
- 'coincidence' --> to coincide --> overlap geometrically
- calendar is round, has rings

Official hint: pi-cipher poem
First couplet --> Seal's Kiss From a Rose
- released 1994, mentions tower in first line
- FRC game in 1994: Tower Power
Second couplet --> clue to game action
- "a dinner, missed" --> missed meal, to "fast"
- "holding weight" --> to carry
- 'fast carry' could mean to haul something

From this analysis, and the repetition of the number 3 in postings, I'm guessing there will be three scoring stations, most likely a tower/rack that teams can load/dump game elements into. But opposing alliances will be able to steal points somehow, so holding elements til the end might be encouraged. The scoring towers/racks might have light indicators showing which has the higher number of game elements by weight.
Also I might have just wasted too much time thinking about all this and will be very disappointed on Kickoff day!

Nice analysis. Maybe a mixture game of 2005 and 2007.

[apalrd]

I would disagree. The reason there are fewer varied designs in FRC now has nothing, or very very little, to do with the withholding allowance rule. The reason for fewer varied designed is the volume of game rules strangling creativity. Thinking outside the box used to be celebrated, now it is often viewed as lawyering the rules. The GDC has used the rules to force the game to be played as they envisioned it being played.

THIS. THIS AGAIN.

I talked to a member of the VEX GDC, about de-scoring in Sack Attack. He said, if they didn't want teams to de-score, they would have designed the troughs so it was hard to de-score. The GDC could do a lot of things in the design of the field elements and point values to make the game play out like they wanted without making rules against gameplay.

A great example these rules is the 2012 side-of-bridge hook. It is not simple to design and build a lightweight, compact solution to hang off of the side bridge. IMHO, it was a very creative and elegant solution to the three-robots-on-a-bridge problem which was outlawed because the GDC didn't like that method of playing the game. If they didn't want teams to hang off the side, maybe they should have removed the side flange.

[|DELTA|]

^
That.

[Chris is me]

If they didn't want teams to hang off the side, maybe they should have removed the side flange.

I agree with your general sentiment, but considering the purpose of the side flanges (keeping robots on the ramp), I think this would be one case where the GDC could say "don't hang off the side flange please" and not stifle creativity too much. A *few* rules that limit designs aren't a problem - what's aggravating to me is the sheer number of them.

I'm not 100% sure that an expanded ruleset would make the *average* team more creative, but there would certainly be more outliers.

[jspatz1]

Huh?

<R41 from 2008, R31 in 2007, and R29 in 2006>
Teams may bring a maximum of 25 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE PARTS, REPLACEMENT PARTS, and/or UPGRADE PARTS) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT at the competition site. All other FABRICATED ITEMS to be used on the ROBOT during the competition shall arrive at the competition venue packed in the shipping crate with the ROBOT.

The weight limit has varied somewhat over the years (40lb in '09, 65 in '10, 30lb in '11-12), but it's quite old.

I guess I was remembering that they dramatically increased the allowance in 2009. At the time the reason given was to allow more time with the new control system, but they have continued the larger allowances. An even bigger change is that it used to be prohibited to work on actual robot components, upgrades, or software after build season. We were allowed two 5-hour "fix-it" work sessions after ship date, and between each regional, where we could build or repair spares or minor modifications, or work on software, but there was no on-going redesign and fabrication allowed after build season. Your robot was what it was at the end of build season, and that's what you competed with.

[|DELTA|]

I think that this convo. might be in the wrong thread...
Please correct me if I am wrong..

[BrianT103]

I won't spend my time speculating on the hint, however I will say that it is difficult for me to ignore the number of indicators that have appeared over the past months that seem to suggest FIRST is moving to a 4v4 format for 2013. The smaller KOP chassis dimensions, new 4" wheels from AM, and the fact that 2012 saw a driver station in what once was an area solely reserved for human players all seem to support this idea. I suspect the new size requirements for 2013 could be 28" by 32" in order to help offset the space taken up by an additional 2 teams on the playing field. Moving to a 4v4 would be a win-win for FIRST and FIRST teams. Teams would be happy due to the increased number of matches it would allow them. More teams would be playing Saturday afternoon, helping to inspire more students. From a business perspective on FIRST's end, the move would be a home run. They would increase their "capacity" significantly while maintaining a similar amount of expenses for all events. Championships would become even bigger this year, and the amount of matches teams would have would increase notably. The move would also make a big dent in attempting to help make FIRST more affordable for all (more registration fees vs. identical overhead). The change would also buy time (a couple years) for FIRST to figure out what they are going to do with the rapidly unsustainable qualification structure of championship.

Lastly, and this is more of a wild guess that what was stated above... If the game is indeed 4v4 I predict that we will see a mostly open field that is void of major obstacles like last year. The major reason being that the GDC would be cautious not to "clutter" the field with the addition of 2 more teams on the playing field.

[Chris is me]

For what it's worth, we aren't certain the KOP chassis is smaller, we just know it all fits in a smaller box.

[Richard Wallace]

For what it's worth, we aren't certain the KOP chassis is smaller, we just know it all fits in a smaller box.And we know it is compatible with a belt drive system.

[F22Rapture]

I won't spend my time speculating on the hint, however I will say that it is difficult for me to ignore the number of indicators that have appeared over the past months that seem to suggest FIRST is moving to a 4v4 format for 2013. The smaller KOP chassis dimensions, new 4" wheels from AM, and the fact that 2012 saw a driver station in what once was an area solely reserved for human players all seem to support this idea. I suspect the new size requirements for 2013 could be 28" by 32" in order to help offset the space taken up by an additional 2 teams on the playing field.

**snip**

I think we're stretching a bit there


We have no confirmation on the smaller KOP size, and
It's my understanding that 4" plaction wheels have been available on and from Andymark for years, the only new development this year is that they're offering a new tread for them similar to the 6" HiGrips


And while there's no reason not to speculate... I don't think this is very firm grounding to do so from.

[dotbran]

For what it's worth, we aren't certain the KOP chassis is smaller, we just know it all fits in a smaller box.

Agreed. It is valuable for teams to be able to make large-chassis robots but never an absolute necessity for success. Rookie teams, while creative, typically do not find ways to make effective us of a full-size chassis. Thus, the change in kit bot size is probably the result of AM and FIRST's push in the past few years to cut material costs.

Since this is a year where the pattern suggests a non-ball game pieces, what are outlying (frequently used or never used) shapes for game pieces? Tetras have been mentioned in this thread, which seem cool but would be less durable than even the orbit balls from Lunacy. Life rafts seem an obvious possibility.

[dodar]

For what it's worth, we aren't certain the KOP chassis is smaller, we just know it all fits in a smaller box.

...yes, Andymark is now making robots with multiple sections where they have to bolt together instead of making sturdy, one-piece sides. I'm sorry, but that makes zero sense.

[|DELTA|]

...we aren't certain the KOP chassis is smaller, we just know it all fits in a smaller box.

Good point. Many people are assuming to much, I think.

[Siri]

I guess I was remembering that they dramatically increased the allowance in 2009. At the time the reason given was to allow more time with the new control system, but they have continued the larger allowances. An even bigger change is that it used to be prohibited to work on actual robot components, upgrades, or software after build season. We were allowed two 5-hour "fix-it" work sessions after ship date, and between each regional, where we could build or repair spares or minor modifications, or work on software, but there was no on-going redesign and fabrication allowed after build season. Your robot was what it was at the end of build season, and that's what you competed with.Ok, though I can't say I noticed much of a difference. I know we were far from the only team seriously iterating during those 10hrs every week (that had a regional) to "manufacture SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE PARTS and develop software". Given the heavier NI system, the allowance hasn't changed much aside from the '09 switch and '10 snow.


Regardless, has the hint ever alluded to a construction rule? Most of the ones I remember are field-related--and pretty direct at that. 2012 said ball shooting, 2011 said tower climbing and logo pieces, 2010 said soccer ball and divided field, 2009 said ice game, 2008 said hurdling and race track... Some were more difficult than others (kudos to the guy who did the 2010 soccer ball calculations), but very specific information was there for those geniuses out there who could get it.

I suspect we're looking for something more direct (arena, game or robot) as far as the poem goes...though other than lifting allies and coopertating, I have no rational guess as to what. Hey, I never said I was one of those geniuses.


As far as the AM chassis size, how long has the 20" long Nano been for sale? While I could see the robot size limits going down, is it possible that Andy simply wants to provide Nano instead of the C-Base? I don't know about performance or assembly (trickier?) trade-offs, but it is cheaper ($479 vs $549). Note that nothing on the site currently sells for exactly the PDV value ($450), and the Nano is actually among the closest.


It's my understanding that 4" plaction wheels have been available on and from Andymark for years, the only new development this year is that they're offering a new tread for them similar to the 6" HiGripsHe's talking about these (http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-2256.htm).

EDIT:
@dotbran: I'm still waiting for traffic cones and nerf footballs. ...Just not simultaneously.

[srolack2]

Water game 100%

[DampRobot]

Although it sure would be interesting to find out on the 5th that we need a smaller chassis, I really don't think the size will change. As I said earlier, the GDC tends to stick with what works. I find it especially hard to believe that they would both change the chassis dimensions and the number of robots on the field at the same time, since both haven't really changed since 2005, and neither present huge problems.

In case others on this thread didn't know, the reason they chose the 38" by 28" frame size was to allow robots with bumpers to fit through standard sized doors. Not that smaller frames would change this, but the 28" number wasn't just pulled out of a hat. I would suspect that the kitbot is just smaller than usual, but I could easily be surprised come kickoff.

Changing the withholding allowance wouldn't "level the playing field." Powerhouse teams don't just iterate heavily, they often just get how to play a game successfully because they've had successful designs in the past. Sure, all the best teams upgrade their robot, keep parts of it back for software, or just manufacture parts after build is over. But if they had to ship their final robot, it would be very good anyway. Eliminating the withholding allowance would hurt the teams who didn't get the robot right the first time (the non-powerhouse teams) a lot more than those who mostly did (the powerhouse teams).

[dotbran]

Changing the withholding allowance wouldn't "level the playing field." Powerhouse teams don't just iterate heavily, they often just get how to play a game successfully because they've had successful designs in the past. Sure, all the best teams upgrade their robot, keep parts of it back for software, or just manufacture parts after build is over. But if they had to ship their final robot, it would be very good anyway. Eliminating the withholding allowance would hurt the teams who didn't get the robot right the first time (the non-powerhouse teams) a lot more than those who mostly did (the powerhouse teams).

In my experience it is the powerhouse teams who withhold the most weight and have the resources and expertise to take best advantage of the extra time.

[Andrew Lawrence]

In my experience it is the powerhouse teams who withhold the most weight and have the resources and expertise to take best advantage of the extra time.

It's not that the powerhouse teams get the time to iterate, it's that the teams who use the time given to them to iterate end up being powerhouse teams.

Iteration is something everyone can do.

[Chris is me]

...yes, Andymark is now making robots with multiple sections where they have to bolt together instead of making sturdy, one-piece sides. I'm sorry, but that makes zero sense.

There are several totally plausible designs that could feature a multi-part chassis rail. Maybe a chassis with angled ends (think like this \_/), or a chassis with a transmission bolted to the end, or a system where the outer parts of the frame move out to tension the outermost wheels. Maybe it won't even be square. Perhaps the game will have an incentive for a smaller chassis, but not a requirement. We just don't know.

We're not a powerhouse team and we have always brought in as much weight as possible. Iteration is a necessary but not sufficient criteria to being a powerhouse team.

[AllenGregoryIV]

I'm still waiting for traffic cones and nerf footballs. ...Just not simultaneously.

Traffic cones are very high on my list of game pieces that would be great for FRC. Frisbees or other disks would be interesting.

Foam cubes like VEX elevation would also be fun.

I'm dreading the day they finally give us small balls. Racquetballs would be so hard with FRC robots.

[inkspell4]

Has anyone else noticed this new product on andymark?

http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-2414.htm

[dcarr]

Has anyone else noticed this new product on andymark?

http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-2414.htm

Yep - a long-running joke has finally been made into a T-Shirt.

[inkspell4]

Truthfully just making a robots control system accessible yet waterproof might be a challenge in itself not including the fact that it would most likely require some type of easily manipulated propulsion system.

Lastly would the venues used for the competitions even have a area where a water game could be played.

I believe first will stick to games based on land

[F22Rapture]

Truthfully just making a robots control system accessible yet waterproof might be a challenge in itself not including the fact that it would most likely require some type of easily manipulated propulsion system.

Lastly would the venues used for the competitions even have a area where a water game could be played.

I believe first will stick to games based on land

I don't think anyone disagrees

Hence why it's a "long running joke"

[alectronic]

In my experience it is the powerhouse teams who withhold the most weight and have the resources and expertise to take best advantage of the extra time.

Just in response to people that have speculated an end of stop build or whatnot, it looks like that is already outlined in the manual. It says stop build day is the 19th, but it is true that there isn't details on the withholding info.

http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/viewItem/7#4.6.1

[Chimera0x694]

Here are the things I think are important for the info we have so far.
1. I think the significance of the 12/21/12 release date is that if you add the 1s and 2s together you get 3/3/3. Three groups of 3.
2. This was game hint 3, even though you really have to stretch to assume that there were two other official hints.
3. Pi was the key to decoding the hint (a version of 3)
4. The Rick Astley video was from exactly the three minute mark
5. This doesn’t have to do with three, but the box dimensions on the chassis are smaller this year.

Okay, so here is what I think it all means.
I think we had correctly figured out that the 3:00 mark on the Rick Astley hint means that we will have 3:00 matches this year. This bothered me because I, like most people (I think) would rather play more matches rather than fewer.

But if there are 3 alliances of 3 robots each, you can still have each robot play about 10 matches in qualification rounds with only about 2/3 of the matches. Usually at a 60 robot regional, you have to play about 100 matches for each robot to be in 10 matches. With 9 robots on the field, you only need 67 matches to do the same thing. I don’t even want to think about what this means for scouting though.

Fewer, longer matches also means more time with robots on the field and less reset time. Also, more interesting for the spectators.

This also goes along with the smaller robot dimensions. To have more robots on the field, they need to be smaller.

3/3/3 – 3 robots, 3 alliances, 3 minute matches

As for the nature of the game, I feel like it is much more speculative. I do feel like there may be a big tower in the middle of the field for something, but I wouldn’t bet much money on that thought. I feel more confident about the idea that you will have to hold up something heavy since it is (kind of) in both clues. The Rick Astley song – “Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down” and in the cypher “A dinner missed, holding weight.”
About the "Game hint number 3" issue. the # sign is NOT known officially known as the symbol for "Number", it is the "pound" symbol. So, since there was no OFFICIAL game hint one and two, we can only assume that it is not labeling it as number 3, but as pound 3. Maybe the game pieces weigh 3 pounds... Maybe if there is a minibot again this year, it has to weigh less than three pounds.... :)

[Chimera0x694]

I have been thinking about how the game hint was labeled "#3"... we have all been assuming that the # symbol stands for number, when in actuality it refers to "pound". Pound 3? Maybe the game pieces weigh 3 pounds....

[TD912]

I don't think Seal will suddenly show up at kickoff to perform, but I do think there could be another meaning.

There's the animal, which people have mentioned previously.

Then there's multiple dictionary definitions, the first one being:
a device or substance that is used to join two things together so as to prevent them from coming apart or to prevent anything from passing between them

Will there be things that need to be held onto? Or maybe obstacles on the field?

[IndySam]

I don't think Seal will suddenly show up at kickoff to perform, but I do think there could be another meaning.


I would rather have Heidi Klum show up.

[|DELTA|]

I would rather have Heidi Klum show up.

Hey! good Idea... would be even better if it was some sort of water game... :D

Also, "Seal" as in, a device used to keep things watertight? *wink*

[ratdude747]

Traffic cones are very high on my list of game pieces that would be great for FRC.


Me too.

They are in a way just like rounded Tetra's... they can be stacked in the same way. The downside is that they can only be stacked one way, but hey, that's another challange!

[inkspell4]

Could somebody please restate the current translation.