Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!

[Hallry]

Oh boy, here we go again. So, what do you think?!?

[suzumebachi]

Oh boy, here we go again. So, what do you think?!?

Oh my god. oh my god this is freaking awesome!
I'm so excited for climbing robots and FRISBEES

[moogboy]

AWESOME GAME LET'S GOOOOOOO

[Quanta]

Alright now to look into winch systems haha

[SarahBeth]

Anyone having issues taking the manual decryption code?

Mine won't accept it. :/

[slijin]

Shades of Round Up (http://www.vexforum.com/wiki/Round_Up).

[ratdude747]

I personally think it was a bit soon for another hanging game... But overall, it looks fun.

[ratdude747]

Shades of Round Up (http://www.vexforum.com/wiki/Round_Up).

My initial thoughts as well.

[slijin]

Anyone having issues taking the manual decryption code?

Mine won't accept it. :/

sAucersFlyRobotsClimb! works fine for me.

[Kohala2460]

so shooting these frisbees.....

[turtleman]

So a frisbee shooter and some way to climb up the tier rungs? Got it. Sounds fun.

[Steven Donow]

Robot size is smaller...

[Wolfbyte317]

Some aspects of this remind me of Breakaway (at least the end-game portion)... poring over the manual right now, some pretty specific rules regarding the robot. Definitely gonna be an interesting year.

Also, two shooting games in a row? Guess we're breaking the mold this year.

[krazyman1013]

Anyone have an idea for climbing the rungs? Besides going under then up...:confused:

[moogboy]

Rules G31/32/33 are pretty interesting, might be worth focusing on for alliance selection valuability?

[Keyreaper]

The pyriamid is never going to give you up, never going to let you down.

[JosephC]

Robots are smaller this year.

A. total length of the FRAME PERIMETER sides may not exceed 112 in.

38+38+28+28 = 132

[Ty Tremblay]

Robots are smaller this year.


That is a LOT smaller.

[neal]

Are the field diagrams up yet?

[jwallace15]

Frisbee Launcher. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KVK8svZzbI)
It's a bit too big for a robot, though.

[Racer26]

Looks remarkably consistent.

[malay_shashank]

Has anyone been able to find the frisbee product online or at any store? the Part is a Wham-O Frisbee Super Flyer, Item number 53214. I am unable to find it anywhere except for on wham-o.com, and I can't even buy it there. I tried contacting there Customer Service, but it is closed.

[d.kho]

Before the start of each MATCH, the ARENA is populated with 118 White DISCS, 6 Red DISCS, and 6 Blue DISCS.

Holy crap. 118 white discs? And its not a typo due to the rest of the section... This is going to get messy...

[jason701802]

Hmm,
The rungs are at 30", 60", 90"
The absolute max robot height is 84"
and
A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID in

A. sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and
B. no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously.

If a CLIMB is considered unacceptable (e.g. a ROBOT has touched non-adjacent Levels or more than two (2) Levels at a time), a Referee will indicate a rejected CLIMB by turning the offending ROBOT’S PLAYER STATION LED strings yellow. The ROBOT will be ineligible for CLIMB points unless and until it begins a new CLIMB from the floor, Level 0.
The ground counts as a level, so a robot must lift itself off the ground using the level 1 bar before going for the level 2 bar

[XXShadowXX]

Vision based shooting here we go again!

[pacoliketaco]

So after looking through the manual a few times, I haven't seen anything that would prevent the following strategy:

1. Collect 4 colored disks.
2. climb (sequentially) to the top of your pyramid
3. score disks into pyramid goal
4. retrieve falling disks from beneath goal
5. repeat steps 3&4 till the game ends
6. profit???

[Bennetster]

Why are some discs colored (6 blue discs and 6 red discs 90 white disks) can you only score with your own color?

[pacoliketaco]

Why are some discs colored (6 blue discs and 6 red discs 90 white disks) can you only score with your own color?

You can only score in the top pyramid goal with your own colored disks. I am not sure if you can also use them on the other goals.

[HvilleRobots]

looks like this is gonna be an interesting year
Taylor from 2164 the corps

[alectronic]

Are the field diagrams up yet?

http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2013/2013_Game_Specific_Drawings.pdf

[alectronic]

Why are some discs colored (6 blue discs and 6 red discs 90 white disks) can you only score with your own color?

From GLOSSARY
SCORED: A DISC is considered SCORED in an ALLIANCE’S GOAL if any part of the DISC has crossed through the opening of the GOAL, is in the GOAL at the end of the MATCH, and the DISC is not in contact with any ROBOT from that ALLIANCE. Additionally, for a DISC to be considered SCORED in an ALLIANCE’S PYRAMID GOAL, it must correspond to the PYRAMID color.

[alectronic]

You can only score in the top pyramid goal with your own colored disks. I am not sure if you can also use them on the other goals.

Yes, you can use them as normal white disks, but then you miss out on the ALLIANCE PYRAMID GOAL points.

[Gadeer Zbedat]

Awesome game :))
Anyone of you can give me idea , how to climb??
(how to build the robot to climb?

[Racer26]

So after looking through the manual a few times, I haven't seen anything that would prevent the following strategy:

1. Collect 4 colored disks.
2. climb (sequentially) to the top of your pyramid
3. score disks into pyramid goal
4. retrieve falling disks from beneath goal
5. repeat steps 3&4 till the game ends
6. profit???

The pyramid goal has a floor to it, and therefore doesn't drop the disks out, also, the rule says the DISCs must be in the GOAL at the end of the MATCH to score.

However, doing so DOES turn your 30pt climb into a 50pt climb, provided you can put the DISCs in the PYRAMID GOAL with 100% accuracy.

[Jacob.B]

And we had hoped for an easy game this year.. Oh and btw, the angle on the goals is 68 degrees, it must be a sign! Thanks FIRST gods!

[Racer26]

Awesome game :))
Anyone of you can give me idea , how to climb??
(how to build the robot to climb?

I suspect we might see a return of 2056-in-2010-esque climbing devices.

[Gabrielle3164]

So we understand that you must climb the tower sequentially and you cannot touch more than two levels at once, but would that mean it is possible to remain on level 0, touch level 1 with an apparatus, then remove it and touch level two while your robot is stil on the ground and do the same for level three before lifting off of level zero? We are unclear as to whether this counts as sequentially or not.

[Racer26]

So we understand that you must climb the tower sequentially and you cannot touch more than two levels at once, but would that mean it is possible to remain on level 0, touch level 1 with an apparatus, then remove it and touch level two while your robot is stil on the ground and do the same for level three before lifting off of level zero? We are unclear as to whether this counts as sequentially or not.

No. Once you remove your apparatus from level 1, you are once again touching only level 0, and so to touch level 2 would break sequential-ness. You're trying to lawyer the rule. The intent is clear, climb the tower, don't grab onto the top and pull yourself up.

[cafrava2016]

Is there any co-op points this year????

[Bryan Herbst]

Is there any co-op points this year????

No.

[Jacob.B]

Is there any co-op points this year????
I do not believe so..

[Racer26]

Just realized something else too. For all the hype about Kinect playing a bigger role in 2013, I don't even see anything about the Kinect at all.

[Sky Captain]

So after looking through the manual a few times, I haven't seen anything that would prevent the following strategy:

1. Collect 4 colored disks.
2. climb (sequentially) to the top of your pyramid
3. score disks into pyramid goal
4. retrieve falling disks from beneath goal
5. repeat steps 3&4 till the game ends
6. profit???

This is false actually, once the disc is scored it stays in the target, there is a layer of plexiglass that prevents it from falling through.

[Racer26]

Also, as a 2012 Field Resetter... Field Reset for this game will suck. Hard. At least frisbees don't roll like basketballs will. 130 Frisbees to sort into 6 stacks of 15, 6 stacks of 2, plus a bunch more placed on the field. Ick.

Kind of surprises me a bit, since Field Reset is a big component of the time between matches, which they've been trying to minimize.

[S2K JDM]

so for hanging, could we just ride up the pipe like how some teams did in Breakaway?

[Tetraman]

so for hanging, could we just ride up the pipe like how some teams did in Breakaway?

Depends on how you do it. You can't attach to level 3 and then ride up (cause it violates both hight limit rules and pyramid level rules.) You have to start by getting onto level 1 and being off the ground, then attaching to level 2 and so on.

[rmhooks573]

good luck rookies....

[S2K JDM]

Depends on how you do it. You can't attach to level 3 and then ride up (cause it violates both hight limit rules and pyramid level rules.) You have to start by getting onto level 1 and being off the ground, then attaching to level 2 and so on.

Nah just latch onto the bottom and then ride up. would that count as sequential climbing?

[Bryan Herbst]

Also, as a 2012 Field Resetter... Field Reset for this game will suck. Hard.

As a 2013 field supervisor, I'm bringing a hard hat.

[Limb]

AIR DEFENCE IS HERE!!

[Tetraman]

Nah just latch onto the bottom and then ride up. would that count as sequential climbing?

It would, except it will be extremely difficult to slide up the bar considering this photo as taken by team 3467:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=453119554753817&set=pb.178534675545641.-2207520000.1357414923&type=3&theater

The bars that enforce the "levels" of the pyramid are on the outside of the legs.

[J-Blondie]

Just realized something else too. For all the hype about Kinect playing a bigger role in 2013, I don't even see anything about the Kinect at all.

Well it does say in the rules that you can use a Microsoft Kinect as a controller. It just uses it as an example, but I don't really think it is necessary to drive.

[Sam390250]

The colored discs certainly remind me of Empty Cells in Lunacy.

I also feel that these pyramids are going to create a great visibility hazard similar to that experienced in Rack N Roll.

[dubiousSwain]

so for hanging, could we just ride up the pipe like how some teams did in Breakaway?
My thoughts exactly

[dubiousSwain]

It would, except it will be extremely difficult to slide up the bar considering this photo as taken by team 3467:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=453119554753817&set=pb.178534675545641.-2207520000.1357414923&type=3&theater

The bars that enforce the "levels" of the pyramid are on the outside of the legs.
It won't be a problem if you don't make it a problem

[Racer26]

It won't be a problem if you don't make it a problem

I'm curious what design you've dreamed up. The most widely successful climberbot from 2010 that I can remember is 2056's wheeled climber that regularly carried them to the top of the TOWERs. It couldn't work on 2013's PYRAMIDs as is because of the way the rungs cross the corner supports.

It might be possible to build some kind of related 2-stage device where you climb the first 30", then regrab above the bar, and continue, but to simply latch on and climb as in 2010 seems impossible.

[Robotmmm]

Robotic Frisbee Launcher Prototype

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh2p3rGSyPU&feature=player_detailpage

[Cody Burd]

Robotic Frisbee Launcher Prototype

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh2p3rGSyPU&feature=player_detailpage

good one

[Koko Ed]

Also, as a 2012 Field Resetter... Field Reset for this game will suck. Hard. At least frisbees don't roll like basketballs will. 130 Frisbees to sort into 6 stacks of 15, 6 stacks of 2, plus a bunch more placed on the field. Ick.

Kind of surprises me a bit, since Field Reset is a big component of the time between matches, which they've been trying to minimize.

Team Queing is going to be a nightmare. We have to wait for teams to get safely removed from the towers after each match. It's gonna take forever and it still will be the que teams fault.

[malanis]

so, my team was wondering, how deep are all 3 goals? it does not say in the packet.

[Richard Wallace]

so, my team was wondering, how deep are all 3 goals? it does not say in the packet.Welcome to Chief Delphi!

The dimensions you want can be found here (http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default/files/uploadedFiles/Robotics_Programs/FRC/Game_and_Season__Info/2013/2013_Game_Specific_Drawings.pdf). For example, the High Goal dimensions are shown on sheet 69. Looks like it is about 22 inches deep.

Correction, per the Side, High Goal Basket drawing GE-13077 on sheet 135 of the set linked above, the depth is about 20 inches.

[Joon Park]

so, my team was wondering, how deep are all 3 goals? it does not say in the packet.

Look in the field drawings: it should give you all the dimensions you want.

Also, I find it kind of ironic how they called it "Ultimate" Ascent and it's actually more like disc golf than ultimate..

[malanis]

thank you very much, another thing, each alliance starts with 45 white discs, and there are two spots for each alliance to feed into the field from. do you completely decide which feeder station you want the discs to start at? as in, can you have all 45 at the station which also has the 1 point goal?

[pludodog]

Sigh, did not think I would be digging through my senior design project papers tonight (As an aside this is quite humbling, I recommend to anyone who has already graduated college!)


From what I remember, our frisbee launcher was consistent to within +- 3 inches at 30 feet distance between 3 and 10 feet off the ground (when shot from around 3 feet). We used an 11 inch wheel connected to a cim motor that was spinning at 1000 rpm, and we'd put in a new frisbee in each time it was back up at 1000, which was within 2-3 seconds. The keys were putting a groove into the spinning wheel to grab the frisbee, covering the wheel with rubber foam, and then having a rigid outside wall with a straight path at the end, so that the frisbee would go straight when it left the launcher.

I'll now have to dig through our derivation of equations, but from what I remember it's not physically difficult to build a good launcher, the difficult parts are 1.) getting frisbees into the launcher, 2.) getting the software to aim it.

[Richard Wallace]

^Excellent post, Joe! Thank you!

Some follow up questions -- (1) what material did you use for the wheel? (2) how thick was it? (3) would you foresee any problems using a smaller wheel diameter and higher RPM, so that the speed at the contact point is the same?

[Zack.McDonald]

Can Human Players score COLORED disc during the last 30 seconds into the tower for 5 points? I'm not sure if this was already asked

[Gregor]

I think Frisbee Frolic would have been a better name. :p

[GaryVoshol]

Team Queing is going to be a nightmare. We have to wait for teams to get safely removed from the towers after each match. It's gonna take forever and it still will be the que teams fault.

Nah, field reset will still be trying to find the 117th and 118th discs - it'll be their fault.

Also refs will delay things as we carefully determine the exact heights of the lowest part of each robot.

The new radios had better sync up pretty fast, or we've no hope of hitting 7 minute game cycles.

[Team3266Spencer]

I hadn't even considered the complications of resetting the field with this year's game. Lol sounds like a mess!

[vhcook]

Nah, field reset will still be trying to find the 117th and 118th discs - it'll be their fault.

How is field reset going to get the disks down out of the tower goals (or even the high goals)? Is there some trick to it I'm not seeing?

[inkspell4]

Where can i get the RobotBuilder Program?

[tj1673]

How is field reset going to get the disks down out of the tower goals (or even the high goals)? Is there some trick to it I'm not seeing?

I would imagine that there is probably some release that kinda just drops them from underneath or something to that effect. If they are aiming for 7 minute turnarounds, there is no way that field reset is going to be climbing up there each match. That's 10' off the ground!

[engunneer]

thank you very much, another thing, each alliance starts with 45 white discs, and there are two spots for each alliance to feed into the field from. do you completely decide which feeder station you want the discs to start at? as in, can you have all 45 at the station which also has the 1 point goal?
Remember, the 1 pt goal next to the 3-feeder wall is your opponent's. Be careful when looking at colors. From the driver's point of view, you get fed neat you, and your tower and goals are on the far end of the field. Also remember that your driver needs to look through two pyramids to see the goals on the far end.

example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z3cjwgx1c0

[Redo91]

While there are rules about team members climbing on the PYRAMID, I don't recall seeing anything about field personnel not being allowed to ascend the PYRAMID...

I imagine they have an easy way to retrieve the discs that does not involve having to leave the ground. At least via the PYRAMID.

[Radical Pi]

Where can i get the RobotBuilder Program?

It's provided as part of your programming language's update package. For C++, you'll find it in C:\Wind River\WPILib after running the WPILib update

I would imagine that there is probably some release that kinda just drops them from underneath or something to that effect. If they are aiming for 7 minute turnarounds, there is no way that field reset is going to be climbing up there each match. That's 10' off the ground!

Looking at the kickoff pictures, it looks like the bottom of the goal can be pushed upward such that all the discs fall out of the main opening of the goal

[inkspell4]

It's provided as part of your programming language's update package. For C++, you'll find it in C:\Wind River\WPILib after running the WPILib update


What about with java?

[protoserge]

While there are rules about team members climbing on the PYRAMID, I don't recall seeing anything about field personnel not being allowed to ascend the PYRAMID...

I imagine they have an easy way to retrieve the discs that does not involve having to leave the ground. At least via the PYRAMID.

I highly doubt that there will be climbing by field personnel. I believe OSHA regulations require fall protection for personnel at or above 6 feet elevation. http://www.osha.gov/doc/outreachtraining/htmlfiles/subpartm.html

[ThePlagueDoctor]

So I guess that using a grappling hook like in the animation is out of the question because if it used the tower for support while attached to the top rung it would give it a chance to be in more than two sections at the same time? Right?

[Wildcats1378]

So I guess that using a grappling hook like in the animation is out of the question because if it used the tower for support while attached to the top rung it would give it a chance to be in more than two sections at the same time? Right?

From my understanding, I believe that is considered climbing more then 2 levels at a time. you can't touch a bar above the first rung from the ground, etc. since you would be in 3 zones at once.

[protoserge]

Possibly. As always, verify your design ideas with the rules of the game and the rules of the robot.

You could use a grappling hook if connecting to the first level with the hook before detaching and connecting to the next one.

[THE DYNAMO]

I believe contacting the pyramid means actual physical contact, so passing into the plane is fine as long as you dont touch the floor, 30", and 60" bars all at once, OR touch the 30", 60", and 90" bars all at once.

[jason701802]

From my understanding, I believe that is considered climbing more then 2 levels at a time. you can't touch a bar above the first rung from the ground, etc. since you would be in 3 zones at once.

There is nothing prohibiting your robot from being in more than two zones at the same time, just touching the pyramid in more than two zones. The robot to which you are referring does not make a legal climb because it does not touch the bars in sequential order.

[jvriezen]

So will some team build a bot that can climb to the point of being solely supported by the disk on top of the goal (either by hanging from it or sitting on top of it.) Why would you do this? "Because its there."

[protoserge]

So will some team build a bot that can climb to the point of being solely supported by the disk on top of the goal (either by hanging from it or sitting on top of it.) Why would you do this? "Because its there."

I see your challenge and raise you! Quite literally, I raise your robot above mine! ;)

I'm kidding, of course...

[BlueNova]

I'm officially loving this game!
Here are my predictions.

Driving and Aiming: I think we are going to see a lot of fast west coast drives trains. There isn't very much emphasis on being able to strafe this year (as compared to games like Logomotion). I also think we are going to see a lot of rotating turrets.

Scoring Frisbees: It's all about accuracy. The frisbees are going to be difficult to pick up off the ground, and I don't think there will be many just rolling around. Basically, if you get possession of a frisbee, you had better score it in A goal.

The End Game: Climbing is a must. Most, if not all, of the frisbees will be scored by this point in the game, and Climbing will be a very effective way of getting ten or twenty points. That being said, I don't think we are going to see very many teams scoring thirty points by climbing.
As for the colored disks, I think a few teams will score them as they are climbing the ladder (just lob them in, don't worry about spin). I also expect a few Human Players to be a part of a local Ultimate Frisbee Team, and score as much as some robots on their own.

All in all, I think this is going to be a very high scoring, high speed game.

Good Luck!

[seinchin]

So after looking through the manual a few times, I haven't seen anything that would prevent the following strategy:

1. Collect 4 colored disks.
2. climb (sequentially) to the top of your pyramid
3. score disks into pyramid goal
4. retrieve falling disks from beneath goal
5. repeat steps 3&4 till the game ends
6. profit???

If you take the disc out of the goal, it no longer counts. I believe the pyramid goals have baskets that catch the discs.

3.1.5.1 DISC Points

Points are awarded for DISCS SCORED in the GOALS per Table 3-2.

A DISC is considered SCORED in an ALLIANCE’S GOAL if any part of the DISC has crossed through the opening of the GOAL, is in the GOAL at the end of the MATCH, and is not in contact with any ROBOT from that ALLIANCE. GOAL openings are outlined in yellow in Figure 3-2 and Figure 3-3.

[j_chen_1676]

I also expect a few Human Players to be a part of a local Ultimate Frisbee Team, and score as much as some robots on their own.

All in all, I think this is going to be a very high scoring, high speed game.


Looking that the angle at which you're throwing and the pyramids directly in the way, feels like it'll take "mad G skillz" to score frisbee shots as human player.

Agree on the fast paced game, very aggressive too. Not sure how many frisbees will actually be shot. Slow drop in system might mean either starving game or not a chaotic amount of frisbees until all hell breaks loose @ 30 seconds

[Patrick Chiang]

What about with java?
Find your "sunspotfrcsdk" folder (which is in your user folder). Then, tools/RobotBuilderr614.jar

[pfreivald]

Looking that the angle at which you're throwing and the pyramids directly in the way, feels like it'll take "mad G skillz" to score frisbee shots as human player.

Consider what happens if you accidentally hit an opponent's climbing robot...

[joelg236]

Not sure if anyone would find this useful, but I made a cleaner version of the field picture to use for showing strategies and whatnot. Useful for the first week and competition. http://i.imgur.com/kC2md.png

[Anupam Goli]

Consider what happens if you accidentally hit an opponent's climbing robot...

Alright, better start practicing my hammer throws... oh wait, I'm on the college club, not in high school.


I'm not going to be the only one saying this, but there will be a team out there that will have done enough testing and enough feedback control to be able to succesfully get a frisbee on top of the pyramid. It's not only entirely possible, but can be down to extrapolating a few hundred data points. Also, my team wants to try this out. ;)

[BlueNova]

Looking that the angle at which you're throwing and the pyramids directly in the way, feels like it'll take "mad G skillz" to score frisbee shots as human player.

I'm not saying that every team will have a frisbee thrower extraordinaire, but I do expect a few teams to have one.
Also, you are throwing inside, with no wind. True, the height isn't Ideal, but if you pick your human player now, and they practice, I suspect that they could make at least a third of the shots they take.

Alright, better start practicing my hammer throws... oh wait, I'm on the college club, not in high school.

I know! All I want is to throw the Frisbee for my team!
Wait, do the human players have to be a student, or can they be a mentor like the coach?

[ratdude747]

I know! All I want is to throw the Frisbee for my team!
Wait, do the human players have to be a student, or can they be a mentor like the coach?

Students only.

[dlavery]

There is nothing prohibiting your robot from being in more than two zones at the same time, just touching the pyramid in more than two zones. The robot to which you are referring does not make a legal climb because it does not touch the bars in sequential order.

The grapple-bot climb in the animation is completely legal and valid. Watch the animation carefully. It never contacts more than two zones at any time, and the ones it does touch are contacted in sequential order.

-dave


.

[BlueNova]

Students only.

Define Student. I am a college Freshman, but I am still 18. In fact, one of our students on the team is older than me (don't ask me how the dates worked out, I don't know).

[vhcook]

Define Student. I am a college Freshman, but I am still 18. In fact, one of our students on the team is older than me (don't ask me how the dates worked out, I don't know).

FEEDER: a pre-college TEAM member that feeds DISCS to ROBOTS.

Source: definitions section of the rules.

[cad321]

The grapple-bot climb in the animation is completely legal and valid. Watch the animation carefully. It never contacts more than two zones at any time, and the ones it does touch are contacted in sequential order.

-dave


.

Would this grappling design not go against the height restrictions. Even when touching the pyramid (assuming you are shooting the grapple over the pyramid), the grapple would be shot over 120" high, much more than the 84" max.

[Hallry]

Would this grappling design not go against the height restrictions. Even when touching the pyramid (assuming you are shooting the grapple over the pyramid), the grapple would be shot over 120" high, much more than the 84" max.

Then no, since it's height is higher than 84''.

[dellagd]

I think a lot of teams are going "Oh yeah, just sequentially climb to the top... easy!"

Not quite I believe :D

[vhcook]

Would this grappling design not go against the height restrictions. Even when touching the pyramid (assuming you are shooting the grapple over the pyramid), the grapple would be shot over 120" high, much more than the 84" max.

The blue grapplebot we watch going up only gets to the second crossbar, not the top, so the 84" rule shouldn't be an issue. Now that Dave has kindly pointed it out, I noticed it sort of levering its chassis up on the first crossbar and hop-lifting its wheels just before it hooks up on 2.

[Joon Park]

Consider what happens if you accidentally hit an opponent's climbing robot...

Actually, there's nothing in the rules as far as I can see that would penalize you for that. Now that I've said this, I'm sure it'll be fixed.

Also, I'm going to have to disagree with the optimistic human player predictions. I'm the best ultimate player in an 80 student team, and I feel like I would have a very hard time getting one in a goal in 30 seconds with an infinite number of discs, nevermind in a real game situation. Throwing a hammer almost 54ft over a 6.5ft wall accurately seems difficult, to say the least.

[Radical Pi]

Actually, there's nothing in the rules as far as I can see that would penalize you for that. Now that I've said this, I'm sure it'll be fixed.

Nope.

TEAMS and/or ROBOTS may not employ strategies that use DISCS to either aid or inhibit a ROBOT CLIMB.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL. If the DISC(S) inhibits an opponent’s CLIMB attempt, the opponent ROBOT’S ALLIANCE is awarded points for a successful Level 3 CLIMB.

[BlueNova]

Also, I'm going to have to disagree with the optimistic human player predictions. I'm the best ultimate player in an 80 student team, and I feel like I would have a very hard time getting one in a goal in 30 seconds with an infinite number of discs, nevermind in a real game situation. Throwing a hammer almost 54ft over a 6.5ft wall accurately seems difficult, to say the least.

Why would you throw Hammer? It is great for distance, but you can't do it accurately. Just practice Backhand throws with a curve to the left.

[Joon Park]

Oh goodie, my extreme fear of hitting opposing robots as human player has returned. Just another good reason not to expect points from human players.

[Joon Park]

Why would you throw Hammer? It is great for distance, but you can't do it accurately. Just practice Backhand throws with a curve to the left.

I'd hate for this thread to become an ultimate discussion, but...

I can't imagine a high-release backhand over the alliance wall will make it very far. And hammers tend to be pretty accurate if you ask me. Maybe I'm just odd, but my hammers are actually more accurate than my backhands.

[Redo91]

I do not believe you will need to worry about hitting the opposing team robots trying to climb their pyramid so much as alliance members trying to climb.

[Patrick Chiang]

I'd hate for this thread to become an ultimate discussion, but...

I can't imagine a high-release backhand over the alliance wall will make it very far. And hammers tend to be pretty accurate if you ask me. Maybe I'm just odd, but my hammers are actually more accurate than my backhands.
Hmmm? Backhands are usually the accurate method for most beginners. Even after I learned how to do forehand, I still find it more accurate/powerful (though slower). TBH, I've never seen anyone able to hammer with any real accuracy.

[PayneTrain]

I have to say that I do not envy those behind the glass this year. Hanging a robot six-seven feet in the air makes me sick just thinking about it. If my robot fell during a match I might need more medical attention than the robot.

*shudders*

Can't believe FIRST finally decided to dive into discs as the game pieces; I never thought they would ever see a competition.

Sitting back and listening to my team today, I can say that for most teams, no, climbing will not be as easy as you think. And to the rookies, may Dean have mercy on your soul. This is not a picnic.

[jason701802]

TEAMS and/or ROBOTS may not employ strategies that use DISCS to either aid or inhibit a ROBOT CLIMB.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL. If the DISC(S) inhibits an opponent’s CLIMB attempt, the opponent ROBOT’S ALLIANCE is awarded points for a successful Level 3 CLIMB.(emphasis mine)
I don't think a Frisbee accidentally hitting a climbing robot would count as a strategy.

[Hallry]

(emphasis mine)
I don't think a Frisbee accidentally hitting a climbing robot would count as a strategy.

Well, there's only one way to know for sure: Q&A.

[mploto]

Consider what happens if you accidentally hit an opponent's climbing robot...

As already pointed out by Radical PI,
"G16 - TEAMS and/or ROBOTS may not employ strategies that use DISCS to either aid or inhibit a ROBOT CLIMB.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL. If the DISC(S) inhibits an opponent’s CLIMB attempt, the opponent ROBOT’S ALLIANCE is awarded points for a successful Level 3 CLIMB."

Also, "G27 - ROBOTS may not contact or otherwise interfere with their opponents’ PYRAMID. Inconsequential contact will not be penalized.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL. If an opponent’s CLIMB is affected, RED CARD, and Each affected opponent ROBOT will be awarded points for a successful Level 3 CLIMB."

One is worse than the other. Moral of the story, leave climbing robots alone.

[ratdude747]

(emphasis mine)
I don't think a Frisbee accidentally hitting a climbing robot would count as a strategy.

How would one tell if it was intentional? The look on the thrower's face?

[Anupam Goli]

How would one tell if it was intentional? The look on the thrower's face?

Probably if they took several shots within the area of the affected robot. I don't think anyone could actually look like they were trying to hit the goal if they're 20 feet short and close to a robot instead of a goal.

[Koko Ed]

Every year there is always some aspect of the game that is very simple but gets ignored and effects scoring tremendously (like in 2008 where teams ficus ed on shooting the ball over and forgot about quickly reacquiring it) and I think grabbing up Frisbees are going to frustrate alot of teams. They are small light and slippery and just driving up to them and simply scooping them up is going to prove difficult and time consuming.

[Don Wright]

Remember the robots you would be aiming at to stop from climbing will be right in front of the human player on your side of the field... Your goals are on the other side of the field.

I think it will be very apparent if someone is trying to knock other robots off with Frisbees...

[Koko Ed]

As already pointed out by Radical PI,
"G16 - TEAMS and/or ROBOTS may not employ strategies that use DISCS to either aid or inhibit a ROBOT CLIMB.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL. If the DISC(S) inhibits an opponent’s CLIMB attempt, the opponent ROBOT’S ALLIANCE is awarded points for a successful Level 3 CLIMB."

Also, "G27 - ROBOTS may not contact or otherwise interfere with their opponents’ PYRAMID. Inconsequential contact will not be penalized.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL. If an opponent’s CLIMB is affected, RED CARD, and Each affected opponent ROBOT will be awarded points for a successful Level 3 CLIMB."

One is worse than the other. Moral of the story, leave climbing robots alone.
I'm still trying to figure out how you can know an attached 150 pound robot off the tower using a plastic disc that weighs ounces.

[Anupam Goli]

I'm still trying to figure out how you can know an attached 150 pound robot off the tower using a plastic disc that weighs ounces.

You could do it by violating G14. But I'm sure everyone wants to have a 25 point penalty on their head :rolleyes:

[Koko Ed]

You could do it by violating G14. But I'm sure everyone wants to have a 25 point penalty on their head :rolleyes:

That just people playing psychotic defense (Leroy Jenkins types. These are the same people who would probably smack the tower at the end because they can much to the horror of both alliances). Good defense takes more than just slugging other robots. It takes just as much finesse as it does brute strength. That's how you avoid penalties.

[gabrielau23]

Hmmm? Backhands are usually the accurate method for most beginners. Even after I learned how to do forehand, I still find it more accurate/powerful (though slower). TBH, I've never seen anyone able to hammer with any real accuracy.

I've seen it before. Especially since I'm the "gunner" on my ultimate team. Basically we have a guy who throws hammers EXTREMELY well, everybody else clears out, and they chuck one to me long since I'm kinda fast. I can tell you right now he usually puts it right ON THE SPOT, and in ways that a backhand couldn't reach.

[Anupam Goli]

I've seen it before. Especially since I'm the "gunner" on my ultimate team. Basically we have a guy who throws hammers EXTREMELY well, everybody else clears out, and they chuck one to me long since I'm kinda fast. I can tell you right now he usually puts it right ON THE SPOT, and in ways that a backhand couldn't reach.

It just takes a lot of practice to make accurate throws. Though, i'm not sure if a normal human would be able to place an accurate backhand over the human player wall.

[ehfeinberg]

Didn't realize so many people on CD play Ultimate!

The hammer throw over the wall is going to be extremely difficult to make! Hammer throws tend to just go and float down making it extremely difficult to hit a vertical target. If people still want to make that throw, I think a scoober or thumber might be better because they tend to fly more horizontal.

I honestly think that Ultimate players will have more luck with a High release, OI flick which will go out, then over the wall and curve into one of the goals. If you do it right, it could roll on the backboard possibly giving you a better shot.

Still, probably not going to happen.

[Anupam Goli]

If someone where to have a godlike chickenwing throw, I could see consistent scores, but I've only seen 3 people even be able to make that throw accurately, and they won't traverse very far in the field.

[Gregor]

It just takes a lot of practice to make accurate throws. Though, i'm not sure if a normal human would be able to place an accurate backhand over the human player wall.

That sounds like iteration in robot-speak.

[sebflippers]

looking at this image
http://i.imgur.com/kC2md.png
it seems like there is enough space to flick it on one side of the field or backhand on the other side. But the rules say we can shoot it over the barrier. It doesn't say anything about shooting around.

[ratdude747]

looking at this image
http://i.imgur.com/kC2md.png
it seems like there is enough space to flick it on one side of the field or backhand on the other side. But the rules say we can shoot it over the barrier. It doesn't say anything about shooting around.

Actually, they sorta do. There is a net on each side of the field to keep stay shots from going into the stands. The field video tour said they would try to keep it 3 ft. from the guardrail but some venues may be as tight as 1.5 feet.

If you think there's enough room, Ask Q/A.

[Redo91]

G35
DISCS may be fed onto the FIELD only under the following circumstances:

during TELEOP through the FEEDER SLOTS and
during the last thirty (30) seconds of TELEOP over the FEEDER STATIONS.


Violation: FOUL
It seems that you can only throw them over the feeder station wall.

[TRIron95]

Does anyone know how far back the alliance wall is from the autoline or centerline? The manual says "The alliance station extends 10ft back from the alliance wall, and spans the entire width of the wall." I'm drawing a 3D model of the field and am a bit confused. Thanks!

[pacoliketaco]

So I see a lot of people talking about how to throw over the wall, but has anyone else tried it? My dad and I just made out of pvc the middle goal, so that the opening is at the right height and size, took it outside, marked out 60 feet, and started throwing. I immediately went only for hammer throws, as they curve perfectly, starting out at a high release, then curve flat at whatever distance I want, which lets them go straight into the goal. It took a few tries, but I made about 5/20 throws, my first time trying it. If you have one person throwing, the other feeding them disks, I can see human players scoring at least 20-30 points, if not many more.

[Mustangs]

Moving back to the climbing for a second
The way i understand it is the zone that you are in is based on the lowest point of your robot so could you grab onto the second bar and bring yourself up then grab onto the top bar and pull yourself up would this count since the bottom of your bot is still coming up sequentially isn't it?

[Redo91]

Moving back to the climbing for a second
The way i understand it is the zone that you are in is based on the lowest point of your robot so could you grab onto the second bar and bring yourself up then grab onto the top bar and pull yourself up would this count since the bottom of your bot is still coming up sequentially isn't it?

Check out this thread (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=110438) discussing the climbing rules.

[ThePlagueDoctor]

So what would be better 6 or 8 wheel drive for the bot itself?

[pruo95]

As a Ultimate Frisbee and Disc Golf fan, I am very excited for this build season. The only part that worries me is the climbing...

[ttldomination]

So what would be better 6 or 8 wheel drive for the bot itself?

What do you think?

- Sunny G.

[ThePlagueDoctor]

What do you think?

- Sunny G.

I say 8 so it would start the turn closer to the center of the robot

[gabrielau23]

Well, I'm more inclined to try the Hammer. I just feel like it's got the best mix of a vertical release and how it "floats" near the end. I think if you release the hammer more vertical than horizontal over your head it's got a much better chance of going in. The only reason I could see someone hitting the target with a backhand or forehand(lol) is:
a. They don't know how to throw other ways.
b. The sheer amount of people who will try.
I think the people who know how to throw an effective hammer is much less than those who can throw an effective backhand. The one thing the backhand has going for it, though, is the (if you're right handed) left to right curve (I'm assuming it wo't S-curve over 54 feet) that gives it an excellent shot at hitting any of the three targets. And I, also am very intrigued by throwing around the barrier. It was one of the first things I looked for in the rules. There's nothing, though...but if the venue has room for the 3 foot seperation, it should be possible to fit the frisbee in there so that it curves around the pyramids.

[davidthefat]

I say 8 so it would start the turn closer to the center of the robot

Who says a 6 wheel can't?

[moogboy]

Who says a 6 wheel can't?

Thoughts on 2 wheel drive?

[Anupam Goli]

pssh, obviously meccanum drive is best drive. ;)

[slijin]

Well, I'm more inclined to try the Hammer. I just feel like it's got the best mix of a vertical release and how it "floats" near the end. I think if you release the hammer more vertical than horizontal over your head it's got a much better chance of going in. The only reason I could see someone hitting the target with a backhand or forehand(lol) is:
a. They don't know how to throw other ways.
b. The sheer amount of people who will try.
I think the people who know how to throw an effective hammer is much less than those who can throw an effective backhand. The one thing the backhand has going for it, though, is the (if you're right handed) left to right curve (I'm assuming it wo't S-curve over 54 feet) that gives it an excellent shot at hitting any of the three targets. And I, also am very intrigued by throwing around the barrier. It was one of the first things I looked for in the rules. There's nothing, though...but if the venue has room for the 3 foot seperation, it should be possible to fit the frisbee in there so that it curves around the pyramids.

With regards to throwing around, see this post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1209125&postcount=15).

The only situation where I see a backhand working is if someone slices an IO from the feeder station on the low goal side of the field.

[gabrielau23]

With regards to throwing around, see this post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1209125&postcount=15).

The only situation where I see a backhand working is if someone slices an IO from the feeder station on the low goal side of the field.

Got it. lol I can just see some team who's human player got sick or something and the fill in is trying to rip backhands over the wall to score.

[Joon Park]

I think a lot of the future human players in this thread are underestimating the height of that feeder wall. I'm quite adamant in the fact that hammers are your only accurate option, and even then you won't see those go in too often.

[gabrielau23]

I think a lot of the future human players in this thread are underestimating the height of that feeder wall. I'm quite adamant in the fact that hammers are your only accurate option, and even then you won't see those go in too often.

Definitely agreed. I've been working on hammers ever since I've heard the game. Throwing a backhand over a 6.5 foot wall, the curve is going to be ridiculous.

[Team Leader]

Here's a tour of the 2013 Field:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp4cILBW-xM

Hope this helps! Good luck teams!

[j_chen_1676]

I remember reading about the technical foul given to those that hit a robot with a frisbee while that robot is climbing, however, I can't seem to find that exact rule in the rulebook. (Even though I remember seeing it XD):ahh:

Anyone know the exact rule?

[MetalJacket]

I remember reading about the technical foul given to those that hit a robot with a frisbee while that robot is climbing, however, I can't seem to find that exact rule in the rulebook. (Even though I remember seeing it XD):ahh:

Anyone know the exact rule?
The Rule is G16. In fact, if hitting the robot while climbing messes up the robot's attampt to climb, it gets the points for having climbed all the way to level 3.

[j_chen_1676]

The Rule is G16. In fact, if hitting the robot while climbing messes up the robot's attampt to climb, it gets the points for having climbed all the way to level 3.

So if a robot is hit by a frisbee, no technical foul unless the team is using a strategy specifically using frisbees to inhibit its climb?

[MetalJacket]

So if a robot is hit by a frisbee, no technical foul unless the team is using a strategy specifically using frisbees to inhibit its climb?

That's what it sounds like, although that will probably end up being a rules clarification, part of the Q&A or left up to refs' discretion to decide what is "strategic" or not.

[CLandrum3081]

This is going to be a hard one. My team is still unsure of exactly what to do. :ahh:

We have prototypes for the shooter, but don't know how to:
A. Pick up discs
B. Climb

This is going to be an interesting one. Robots climbing to level 3 will need a strong chassis to avoid damage if they fall while climbing. The grimaces and utterances of discomfort will be even more pronounced this year than last year.

When a robot tips or falls, everyone feels it. ::ouch::

[gabrielau23]

I feel like picking up game pieces this year is different from yeares past. In 2009, 2011, and last year, picking up from the ground was CRUCIAL. But why? Because of the sheer amount of game pieces on the floor. This year I just don't see a multitude of pieces on the floor until the final minute or so.

[fb39ca4]

Thoughts on 2 wheel drive?

Dean Kamen would be proud. :D

[Johnbot]

I feel like picking up game pieces this year is different from yeares past. In 2009, 2011, and last year, picking up from the ground was CRUCIAL. But why? Because of the sheer amount of game pieces on the floor. This year I just don't see a multitude of pieces on the floor until the final minute or so.
Yeah, this year might not be at all like Logomotion....
*flashback*
Game pieces... game pieces everywhere!

Anyways, the only thing I'm disappointed by is the similarity between the last three games. All three had three tiers of scoring (though this year we get one more, but only six game pieces to score in it); all three had an "endgame" that seems like it could swing a match, and all three had human players throwing game pieces into play, as well as a feeder station. Oh well, it should still be a great year!

[Donut]

Yeah, this year might not be at all like Logomotion....
*flashback*
Game pieces... game pieces everywhere!

Anyways, the only thing I'm disappointed by is the similarity between the last three games. All three had three tiers of scoring (though this year we get one more, but only six game pieces to score in it); all three had an "endgame" that seems like it could swing a match, and all three had human players throwing game pieces into play, as well as a feeder station. Oh well, it should still be a great year!

Although the numbers have changed between tiers, that pretty much describes every FIRST game ever (at least since the advent of alliances). An "endgame" worth a potential match-swinging amount of points has been in every game since 2001, human players have entered game pieces onto the field in every year other than 2008, and most years have had some sort of tiered scoring method. That's like saying all FIRST games are similar because they use "game pieces".

After pondering over this game for a few days, this seems like the most difficult end game challenge in a long time. I remember back in 2007 thinking "how are we going to lift 2 other robots?". That seems easy in comparison.

[moogboy]

Dean Kamen would be proud. :D

Two wheel drive has become my team's final design. I think it will work out well for us providing we get our climber designed well.

[Johnbot]

I mean, Breakaway seemed different. (Low scoring, with only two goals, if I remember correctly.) Lunacy was also unique. (With the low traction, and a single goal (although there were three tiers of game pieces) and the human-player reliant endgame.) I don't remember anything from before Lunacy.
I remember Logomotion's kickoff, and I though the game was very different.
I remember Rebound Rumble's kickoff, and I though that it had a similar feel to Logomotion.
This year, although the endgame seems tough, I believe that a large number of teams will be able to do it, so it will seem similar to last year's game.

[Racer26]

I think there's an awful lot of teams severely underestimating the difficulty of a 30pt climb. 10pt climbs are easy. 30pt climbs are HARD.

That being said, I think you're going to see several of the top teams with climbers that can do triple climbs in a ridiculously short period of time.

[Jacoblint228]

Amazing! i think this years game will probably be the most challenging one yet!:ahh:

[AllieS4246]

I think there's an awful lot of teams severely underestimating the difficulty of a 30pt climb. 10pt climbs are easy. 30pt climbs are HARD.

That being said, I think you're going to see several of the top teams with climbers that can do triple climbs in a ridiculously short period of time.

I could not agree more. The main thing will be finding a great balance between a very sucsessful shooter and a very sucsessful climber. The few that can should sweep the regionals do to the time it takes to accomplish both in 6 weeks.

[Joon Park]

I mean, Breakaway seemed different. (Low scoring, with only two goals, if I remember correctly.) Lunacy was also unique. (With the low traction, and a single goal (although there were three tiers of game pieces) and the human-player reliant endgame.) I don't remember anything from before Lunacy.
I remember Logomotion's kickoff, and I though the game was very different.
I remember Breakaway, and I though that it had a similar feel to Logomotion.
This year, although the endgame seems tough, I believe that a large number of teams will be able to do it, so it will seem similar to last year's game.

Could you clarify? Breakway was before Logomotion, perhaps you meant Lunacy?

[gabrielau23]

I could not agree more. The main thing will be finding a great balance between a very sucsessful shooter and a very sucsessful climber. The few that can should sweep the regionals do to the time it takes to accomplish both in 6 weeks.

I think that the biggest difference between teams will be the ability to do 20+ climbs.

[F22Rapture]

I think that the biggest difference between teams will be the ability to do 20+ climbs.

This is true.

Gravity is a cruel mistress. 100-130 pounds (gotta include the battery) falling from 12 inches is easily enough to do some serious damage to aluminum frames (or any frames, really) let alone 45, 55, 65 inches.

I can only imagine the nightmare of having a West Coast Drivetrain fall and shear off a wheel or two, bend the axles and potentially even damage the chassis itself.

A misstep right before finals (or if it's bad enough, any time before then) could spell the end of your competetiveness.

[gabrielau23]

This is true.

Gravity is a cruel mistress. 100-130 pounds (gotta include the battery) falling from 12 inches is easily enough to do some serious damage to aluminum frames (or any frames, really) let alone 45, 55, 65 inches.

I can only imagine the nightmare of having a West Coast Drivetrain fall and shear off a wheel or two, bend the axles and potentially even damage the chassis itself.

most definitely. Actually, our team calculated that the robot would be closer to 140. 10 lbs for bumpers, 10 for battery. Also, 10 points really isn't THAT much. 20 may be enough to swing a match.

[Bill_B]

What makes everyone so sure that the 120# limit is going to be universally reached? The smaller robots this year may only reach 100 or even 90# and still have enough functionality to be competitive. Add to that any emphasis on climbing will encourage serious weight trimming all around. I refer to weights without bumper battery additions. Not that a fall wouldn't be a serious event in the life of any of these machines.

[Djur]

Two wheel drive has become my team's final design. I think it will work out well for us providing we get our climber designed well.

I'd love to see how that works out.

[Johnbot]

Could you clarify? Breakway was before Logomotion, perhaps you meant Lunacy?

Oops, for the sentence comparing Logomotion and Breakaway, I meant to type Rebound Rumble. My bad.

[thetntm]

Thoughts on 2 wheel drive?

hmm, how about a 3 wheel drive? it seems to be indicated by the new bumper and size rules, and it would probably help with strafing while aiming.

[jasp]

this year i think that many teams are focusing on shooting and a basic 10 pt climb. What i'm wondering is how many teams will be able to shoot accurately at the goal on top of the pyramid?