Climbing Rules

[RobotRaider]

I'd like to open the discussion about the hanging rules.

My question is: If you are to attach to the 30" bar in such a way that your robot curls up above the horizontal plain to be completely in the Level 2 (20 points) but a small part of the "claw" attached to the 30" bar is thus below the horizontal plain; does this count as 20 points?

I guess the question becomes, how lenient are the rules, and where does this horizontal plain get extended from? The bottom of the metal tube? The top? The middle?

[Karibou]

I guess the question becomes, how lenient are the rules, and where does this horizontal plain get extended from? The bottom of the metal tube? The top? The middle?

Check out the diagram that defines where the planes are (3.2.4.2). The planes are just above the bars, so the 30" bar is in Level 1, the 60" bar is in Level 2, and the 90" bar is in Level 3.

[XXShadowXX]

If your off the ground your considered level 1, 10 points.

If all of your robot completely above the the first bar, your in level 2 zone, for 20 points.

If all of your robot is completely above the second level your in level 3 zone, for 30 points.

If any of your robot is below the plane is question it seems your be in a lower zone from the rule book, so I believe you'll have to attach to at least the 90 inch bar to be in zone 3. If you are attached to the second bar and curl over, your attachment mechanism will likely be considered in zone 2 therefore your robot.

[CalTran]

3.2.4.2 CLIMB Points

Points are awarded for the highest Level achieved for every ALLIANCE ROBOT that CLIMBS its PYRAMID. The Level to which a ROBOT has CLIMBED is determined by the lowest point of the ROBOT (in relation to the FIELD).


As taken from Secton 3 - The Game

If your claw is still below the level, then the lowest part of your robot is the bottom of that claw. I think, as evidenced of the 210 End Game, it will be a straight above the plane or below the plane.

[JHammond]

Imagine a robot that placed a pair of hooks over the bar @ 30", while the robot is on the ground.

Is the robot in zones 0,1, and 2 and therefore executing an illegal climb?

If the same robot clamps onto the 30" bar but the clamps do not protrude above the crest of the bar is it then only in zones 1 and 2? That would seem to be the case.

Seems like some real constraints on climbing horizontally if #1 is deemed to be illegal.

[Racer26]

Imagine a robot that placed a pair of hooks over the bar @ 30", while the robot is on the ground.

Is the robot in zones 0,1, and 2 and therefore executing an illegal climb?


Sounds like a question for Q&A to me, since I don't believe this is the intent. If it IS the intent, then it seems like we're really only intended to climb the corners of the pyramid.

[LMD3130]

We have come to a stumble with the rule listed in section 3.2.4.2-B. It states that the robot can not be in any more than 2 sections at once. Assuming your robot is on the ground you are in zone 0, if you are going for the cross-bar above in zone 1 you will of course be in zone 1, and once you are above the post you may be in zone 3. The reason this is unknown is due to the small area above the cross-bar that remains to be in the zone, this length above the bar is not described in the rules making us question the legality of a mechanism that grabs or latches to one of these bars because you may cross the level with this system.

[Dinoyan]

Maybe we should make like a robot arm to climb

[Bryan Herbst]

Sounds like a question for Q&A to me, since I don't believe this is the intent. If it IS the intent, then it seems like we're really only intended to climb the corners of the pyramid.

I agree, we are definitely getting into QA territory here.

[Racer26]

I suspect some of the first Q&A questions will be related to the no more than 2 sections climbing rule, and how it interacts with the floor.

My suspicion is that we'll see a Team Update that allows you to be in Layer 0, 1, AND 2, but afterward only 1 and 2 or 2 and 3.

[MikeNimmo]

The robot cannot be IN CONTACT with more than two levels. It can be above a rung as long as it's not touching it.

[Spartechs2441]

Regarding the pyramid

A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID in
A. sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and
B. no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously.

Does this mean that you cannot hook onto the 2nd bar, then climb up and touch the 1st bar on the way? You have to hook up to the 1st, then 2nd, and finally 3rd bar while only touching the next level?

[Dinoyan]

Climbing the PYRAMID is the big deal this year

"how" we're going to climb the PYRAMID?

[Racer26]

I agree, we are definitely getting into QA territory here.

Always amuses me how fast a group of about 3000 teams can poke a hole in the game design to the point of needing a Q&A answer within a couple hours of kickoff every year.

[JHammond]

Seems like a fairly obvious strategy - hard to specify how you make it legal w/out opening up a lot of other issues. Related to it, if a part of the robot protrudes over into a third zone while hooking on - that would seem to make the entire climb illegal.

Other question would be do the level 1,2,3 plane protrude outside the pyramid as well? I'd assume so.

Also, would it mean that robots can be taller than 30"? Sure they need to be smaller than 30" to go under the pyramid, but if a robot were 40" tall and climbin outside, it would cross planes 0,1,2 at the same time, or planes 1,2 and 3 (i.e. a 35" high robot would cross the top two inches of plane 1, 30 inches on plane 2 and the bottom 3" of plane 3 at one point in it's lift.

It would seem you would have to be allowed in 3 planes at once as long as they are contiguous, or am I missing something? It's especially the case w/ a 54" robot or an 84" robot.

Maybe I'm just over analyzing this :-)

[Tetraman]

It appears so. You have to climb one step at a time. Considering that the floor is level 0, that means you must climb onto level 1 and be completely off the ground before heading into level 2, and then completely out of level 1 before you can enter level 3.

[JHammond]

A close rereading of the rules makes me believe this is OK:

A ROBOT Has Climbed the Pyramid if it contacts the pyramid in:
A: Sequential Order (levels 0,1,2,3)) during ascent
B: no more that 2 levels simultaneously

So even to a bot is hooking around the horizontal bar, it's only contacting the zone the bar is in, even if it it extends into the upper plane.

[bolintb]

Thanks for all the clarification. I got "NOT AVAILABLE" on the Q&A site.

What about grabbing the corner post above the 30" bar? I think our robot would be in 0, 1, and 2 (i.e. on the ground, clearly in zone 1, and claw in zone 2).

WOuld this be illegal?

[Norsk]

When can we start climbing the pyrimid? Is there a set time that we are suppose to climb or at any point during the round can we start our ascent?


thanks

team 3662

[Bryan Herbst]

There are no restrictions on when you can begin climbing the pyramid.

[Sean M]

Agreed, there are no restrictions on contacting your own pyramid.

[mega900997]

Does anyone know when you can start climbing the pyramid during the match?

[Bluelightning]

I also am curious about this. Can we climb at any time, or just during the endgame?

[MatthewWalker]

My team is having some trouble understanding how climbing the tower works with regards to zones :confused: . could someone please clarify for us? :)

[Sean M]

The zones are explained in section 3.2.4.2 such that level 0 is on the ground, level 1 is above the ground and below the first bar, level 2 is between the first and second bars, and level 3 is above the second bar. The lowest point on your robot as it is hanging is what will be used to determine the level -- and parts A and B of 3.2.4.2 specify what validates a "CLIMB."

[G22] Robots must contact the pyramid in
A. sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and
B. no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously.

The paragraph at the end means that you cannot skip up bars. So you can climb from the first bar to second bar and hang in level 1 for 10 points, but if you go from the ground to the second bar still in level 1 zone you get no points (invalidated climb) because you didn't climb in sequential order.

Does that help?

[MatthewWalker]

thank you very much!

[brndn]

Also note that the levels include the width of the bar above them, shown in the field tour video and figure 3-4 in section 3.1.5.2 of the game manual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=U8E27tMJA4g#t=36s

[GaryVoshol]

Thanks for all the clarification. I got "NOT AVAILABLE" on the Q&A site.
They commonly don't open the site for a couple days, so as to avoid posting of stupid questions that can be answered with a second read of the manual. Not that this thread is stupid - I'm sure there will be plenty of clarifications on the scoring zones, the ladder 0-1-2-3 rule, etc.

What about grabbing the corner post above the 30" bar? I think our robot would be in 0, 1, and 2 (i.e. on the ground, clearly in zone 1, and claw in zone 2).

Would this be illegal?

Problems. You've got 2 possibilities here:
1. Touching zone 0 (floor) and zone 2 (corner bar above the 30" bar) but not touching zone 1 - illegal because you skipped a zone.
2. Touching all 3 (0, 1 and 2) - illegal because you can only touch 2 zones at a time.

[Christopher149]

Imagine a robot that placed a pair of hooks over the bar @ 30", while the robot is on the ground.

Is the robot in zones 0,1, and 2 and therefore executing an illegal climb?


Here's my interpretation of the rule, which states:


A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID in

sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and
no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously.


The key point is contacting the pyramid. If you grab onto the bottom rung, you are touching level 0 (the floor) and the pyramid in level 1. However, you are not touching the pyramid in level 2, and so it is okay.

[GaryVoshol]

Several threads of similar subject merged into one.

[Donut]

A close rereading of the rules makes me believe this is OK:

A ROBOT Has Climbed the Pyramid if it contacts the pyramid in:
A: Sequential Order (levels 0,1,2,3)) during ascent
B: no more that 2 levels simultaneously

So even to a bot is hooking around the horizontal bar, it's only contacting the zone the bar is in, even if it it extends into the upper plane.

This is the key here. The way the rules are written it explicitly mentions "contacts", which means that the robot must physically touch the pyramid within that level to be considered in it (I don't see how projecting into the plane can be considered contacting).

This does make climbing the corners of the pyramid a more hazardous proposal, since it's fairly easy to contact a tiny portion of the pyramid just barely in level 2 while still contacting level 0 at the corners.

[mikemascot]

how many robots can the pyramid hold at its max tolerance:confused:

[Dominator1619]

Has anybody seen anything in the rules about climbing the corner bars as opposed to the horizontal bars?

[GaryVoshol]

Has anybody seen anything in the rules about climbing the corner bars as opposed to the horizontal bars?

No prohibition, but the kickoff did direct you to consider the way the horizontal bars and the corners intersect.

[Sean M]

I would lend emphasis to the "contact" part of 3.2.4.2 rather than being in the zones themselves. As JHammond mentioned, any robot taller than 30" would otherwise immediately violate the rule (touching level 0, in zone 1 and zone 2). My interpretation is that the only thing being restricted is CONTACT with the pyramid, not presence in a zone.

Another thing to consider the legality of would be the scenario of lifting an alliance robot. Per the rules, your robot could have climbed in the traditional sense (whatever that may be), be in Level 3, and then lift an alliance mate (say by hooking on some point on their robot) by [G33] through to Level 2. This alliance robot would have contacted the pyramid in sequential order (only Level 0) and satisfies restraint B.

[Team1339]

Regarding the pyramid



Does this mean that you cannot hook onto the 2nd bar, then climb up and touch the 1st bar on the way? You have to hook up to the 1st, then 2nd, and finally 3rd bar while only touching the next level?

This could mean that the robot can't be in contact with more than 2 zones of the pyramid at the end of the match, couldnt it?

[MisterG]

We have been discussing this clause in section 3.2.4.2:

Points are awarded for the highest Level achieved for every ALLIANCE ROBOT that CLIMBS its PYRAMID. The Level to which a ROBOT has CLIMBED is determined by the lowest point of the ROBOT (in relation to the FIELD).

We can't agree on whether this means that a robot score points by climbing early and descending.

That is are points only awarded for robots that are in position when the game time expires.

Our early interpretation is that the points will be awarded no matter when the climb happens but this is certainly a point for the official Q&A.

Al G.

[rich2202]

My interpretation is:

The Pyramid is described in section 2.2.5, and is composed of the steel tubing (et al), and the 4 steel bases (24 inch square). Except for the steel plates, the Pyramid does not include the floor under the pyramid.

Separately, there are zones designated as levels (0 through 3). Parts of the Pyramid are in each Zone. But, the Zones are not the Pyramid.

Section 3.1.5.2. CLIMB Points. The Robot has climbed the Pyramid if it contacts the pyramid in no more than two levels simultaneously.

There is no rule that restricts how many zones your bot can simultaneously occupy. Only how many points of contact you can have with the Pyramid.

Only the steel plates of the Pyramid are in level 0.

The first bar is in level 1.

The second bar is in level 2.

So, it is possible to hook onto the 2nd bar, and not violate the rule, if you are not touching a steel plate. This makes it easy to clear the floor (level 0) using the 2nd bar.

Note: make sure you comply with the sequential order rule. Contact the pyramid in level 1 before you contact the 2nd bar. Nothing I see requires you to do anything with the 1st bar. Note 2: The sequential rule does reference level 0, so maybe make sure to touch the steel plate (only part of the pyramid in level 0) before you touch anything else.

You can reach above the 2nd bar, into level 3, as long as you do not touch any part of the Pyramid in Level 3 (the 2nd bar is fully in level 2).

In order to touch the 3rd bar, or any vertical piece above the 2nd bar, you cannot be touching any part of the Pyramid at or below the 1st bar, or you would violate the rule (this presumes you are touching the 2nd bar).

In summary, being "in a zone" does not cause problems. Touching the pyramid in more than 2 zones at a time, does cause problems.

Getting off level 0 is not that difficult (first 10 points). The difficult part is clearing the first bar while only holding onto the 2nd bar (second 10 points) and not touching any part of the pyramid at or below the 1st bar (hanging below, but not touching is ok). Once you have reached that point, then you can touch the 3rd bar, and then clear level 2 (third 10 points).

Note: This is a strict reading of the rules. Future clarifications may affect the interpretation. Such as, a clarification that the floor under the Pyramid is considered part of the pyramid for "contact" purposes, and the floor is considered in level 0. That would mean you have to clear the floor before you can touch the 2nd bar.

[indubitably]

This could mean that the robot can't be in contact with more than 2 zones of the pyramid at the end of the match, couldnt it?

I think this is what really needs the clarification. I believe you will still have to obey that rule while climbing after the clarification, but right now, I don't think it's 100% clear. That would make it way easier to climb.

[gburlison]

We have been discussing this clause in section 3.2.4.2:



We can't agree on whether this means that a robot score points by climbing early and descending.

That is are points only awarded for robots that are in position when the game time expires.

Our early interpretation is that the points will be awarded no matter when the climb happens but this is certainly a point for the official Q&A.

Al G.


What is your interpretation of G4 ?
"3.2.1.4 G04
ROBOTS may only be removed from a PYRAMID under the following conditions:
A. by the TEAM,
B. unpowered,
C. and under the supervision of a FIRST Technical Advisor (FTA), FTA Assistant, Referee, or Field Supervisor.

Additionally, if any part of the ROBOT is in Level 3, TEAMS are required to attach a FIRST supplied belay line, detailed
in Section 2.2.6, to their ROBOT to spot a ROBOT while the TEAM removes it from the PYRAMID."

[jason701802]

My interpretation is:

...

Note: make sure you comply with the sequential order rule. Contact the pyramid in level 1 before you contact the 2nd bar. Nothing I see requires you to do anything with the 1st bar. Note 2: The sequential rule does reference level 0, so maybe make sure to touch the steel plate (only part of the pyramid in level 0) before you touch anything else.

A. sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and

It certainly references level 0

[ddesportes]

We have the same conundrum with climbing through level 2. If the robot grips the bar at the top of level 2, presumably part of the gripper is over top of the bar and, therefore, in Level 3. If at the same time the robot still has some attachment to the bar at the top of Level 1, the robot would be in three levels at once. I sincerely hope this is not the intent of the rules.

[Redo91]

[G22] Robots must contact the pyramid in
A. sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and
B. no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously.
Emphasis mine.

This rule reads a little funny at first, but when you take it for exactly what it says, I think it becomes clear. There is nothing about how many zones the robot can occupy, but how many different zones the robot may contact. This is why the planes for the zones are above the horizontal members.

Let's say you are going to score on the second level (20 points). Your first step, following G22, would be to move from level 0 (the ground) to level 1(fully supported by the section of the pyramid in zone 1). You are now free to move on from the section of the pyramid in zone 1 to the section in zone 2.

I hope this is a helpful explanation.

[Siri]

Emphasis mine.

This rule reads a little funny at first, but when you take it for exactly what it says, I think it becomes clear. There is nothing about how many zones the robot can occupy, but how many different zones the robot may contact. This is why the planes for the zones are above the horizontal members.

Let's say you are going to score on the second level (20 points). Your first step, following G22, would be to move from level 0 (the ground) to level 1(fully supported by the section of the pyramid in zone 1). You are now free to move on from the section of the pyramid in zone 1 to the section in zone 2.

I hope this is a helpful explanation.So...does this make scaling corners as difficult as I think it does?

[Redo91]

So...does this make scaling corners as difficult as I think it does?

Only as difficult as you design it to be.

[DonRotolo]

What is your interpretation of G4 ?
"3.2.1.4 G04
ROBOTS may only be removed from a PYRAMID under the following conditions:
A. by the TEAM,
B. unpowered,
C. and under the supervision of a FIRST Technical Advisor (FTA), FTA Assistant, Referee, or Field Supervisor.

Additionally, if any part of the ROBOT is in Level 3, TEAMS are required to attach a FIRST supplied belay line, detailed
in Section 2.2.6, to their ROBOT to spot a ROBOT while the TEAM removes it from the PYRAMID."I dunno, it seems pretty straightforward to me.. The TEAM removes the robot (not another team or FRC volunteers/staff)
The power must be off
The FTA, FTAA, Ref or FS must be watching

And if you are at level 3, wait for FRC folks to direct you with the Belay thingie.
Emphasis mine.

This rule reads a little funny at first, but when you take it for exactly what it says, I think it becomes clear. There is nothing about how many zones the robot can occupy, but how many different zones the robot may contact. This is why the planes for the zones are above the horizontal members.

Let's say you are going to score on the second level (20 points). Your first step, following G22, would be to move from level 0 (the ground) to level 1(fully supported by the section of the pyramid in zone 1). You are now free to move on from the section of the pyramid in zone 1 to the section in zone 2.

I hope this is a helpful explanation.Yes, it does. It is clear to me that the AIR around and within the pyramid is NOT the pyramid. Contacting the top of the first bar is NOT touching any of the second zone of the pyramid. Sure, it touches AIR in the second zone (by the thickness of your hook), but not the pyramid.

I would still like to see a Q&A submission asking if a robot grappling the lowest (30") horizontal bar with a hook is occupying 2 zones (legal) or 3 zones (illegal, because of the slight projection of the hook into Zone 2, plus contact with the floor (zone 0) and the first horizontal bar (zone 1).

[Siri]

Only as difficult as you design it to be.Sorry, I meant legally. If the issue is contacting pipes within each zone (agreed), is it legal* for a robot to grasp the corner joint of the 30" pipe and of the 60" pipe? (Essentially analogous to your original explanation, which I agree with, but brought next to objects that run the full heights of the zones, obfuscating "occupy".) This is not to say that climbing slanted pipes would be harder--a la 2010 vertical climbers--but rather to investigate the legal issues surrounding working at corner joints.


*Perhaps I should say "wise" rather than "legal". Anyone close enough to brush against the wrong side of a slanted pipe seems to be in a precarious position technical position--and making it very tough on the refs! I'd loathe to see those DS lights turn yellow...


EDIT: or, you know, what Don said. [part 2]
@Don for part 1: I think he's referring back to this concept of climbing early and then coming down to score more.

[Redo91]

I think wise is the word you are looking for. There is not much room to grab onto a corner. It would probably be a judgement call by the referee observing the robot.

[u13mbenshoshan]

Hello to all FRC participants,
I have read throught the rules and have a question that the rules dont refer to.
Can you climb up the pyramid or begin the climb before the last 30 seconds of the match?
This question is' in my opinion very important to understanding the flow of the game and can bring new strategies to the table.

I thank you all in advance :D

Team #2230 ::safety::

[Kevin Sevcik]

You haven't found anything in the rules that says you can't. The rules have nothing in them about when you're allowed to start climbing. Ergo, you can start climbing whenever you like. The GDC is usually very specific and clear when they want to limit activities to some smaller portion of the match.

[RSaunders]

The top paragraph of page 6 (the end of section 3.2.4.2) has a pretty clear example:
If a CLIMB is considered unacceptable (e.g. a robot has touched non-adjacent Levels or more than 2 Levels at a time) ...

This says your robot may extend into the Levels whenever it wants (subject the the 84" rule (G22). Your robot may only touch Level 0 and Level 1 (the ground and the lowest bars) then Level 1 and Level 2, etc. Your robot must touch Levels in sequential order per 3.2.4.2.A.

[TVwazhere]

You haven't found anything in the rules that says you can't. The rules have nothing in them about when you're allowed to start climbing. Ergo, you can start climbing whenever you like. The GDC is usually very specific and clear when they want to limit activities to some smaller portion of the match.

Except a revision probably. That or you have 2 minutes to get it right

[OkieSoar]

We've been discussing the same question and initially concluded that there was no restriction in the written rules about when to start the climb. However, in the game video this might remain uncertain as it says

"near the end of the match" the human players can start throwing their discs.

In the next statement, it says, "at the same time, robots drive to their pyramids and start to climb"...

These comments are at about 2:20 into the game animation video.

If you look through the rules book, specifically 3.3.37 G35-B, for when human players can start to throw discs onto the filed:
"during the last thirty (30) seconds of TELEOP"

If the 'at the same time' statement in the game animation video is firmly linked to when human players can start to throw discs, this suggests the climb can only start in the last 30 seconds of TELEOP.

Not completely sure of this interpretation but for initial planning purposes it might be prudent to plan on climbing during the last 30s. But there's no specific rule we've found so far that addresses when the climb starts other than the linkage through the game animation video.

Dave R
Mentor - Team 2165

[astronomer_bh]

I am trying to figure out if you can still get the 30 points if you pull your robot partially above he level 3 zone, for example, if the robot had arms pulling it up so that the bottom of the robot was above the 2nd bar, and the top of the robot extended above to even with the pyramid target

[dodar]

Does everyone believe that the rule prohibits a robot from climbing the pyramid during the match and then say scores in the pyramid goal and then lower itself to retrieve frisbees and then repeats the process?

[MetalJacket]

The disks remain in the goal, there's a basket.

[dodar]

The disks remain in the goal, there's a basket.

Im not asking about the scoring part.

[snowmobiler9]

There is nothing in the rules that i have spotted saying you cannot climb during the match as long as it is done in the proper way. One thing that i would look at though is the fact that there are only 6 Frisbees allowed to be put in the top goal

[MetalJacket]

Im not asking about the scoring part.

If there's no disks to retrieve then there's no reason to go back down. Unless you were talking about going back to get the other two? In that case, rule G4 makes that a little iffy since it says that the robot may only be removed by the team, unpowered and under FTA supervision. So you'd then have to determine if they mean that removing the robot is just at the end or any time when the robot is coming off the pyramid, in which case coming back down under robot power would be illegal.

[dodar]

Actually this part of rule 3.1.5.2 pretty much says you can drop back down and give the climb another go to get the right climb points you want: If a CLIMB is considered unacceptable (e.g. a ROBOT has touched non-adjacent Levels or more than two (2) Levels at a time), a Referee will indicate a rejected CLIMB by turning the offending ROBOT’S PLAYER STATION LED strings yellow. The ROBOT will be ineligible for CLIMB points unless and until it begins a new CLIMB from the floor, Level 0.

[MetalJacket]

Oh yep, almost forgot about that, thanks for clarifying.

[Team 4118]

If your robot is above the third bar, would it still be considered in zone 3?

[Redo91]

I am trying to figure out if you can still get the 30 points if you pull your robot partially above he level 3 zone, for example, if the robot had arms pulling it up so that the bottom of the robot was above the 2nd bar, and the top of the robot extended above to even with the pyramid target

3.1.5.2 CLIMB Points
Points are awarded for the highest Level achieved for every ALLIANCE ROBOT that CLIMBS its PYRAMID. The Level to which a ROBOT has CLIMBED is determined by the lowest point of the ROBOT (in relation to the FIELD).

If you are partially above level 3, and the lowest point of the robot is above level 2,the highest level you achieved would be level 3.

[GaryVoshol]

The video is not official; the rules and Q&A are. If the rules don't say there is a time limit for climbing, then there isn't one.

[JZB]

when the robot can start climbing on the pyramid?

[Garten Haeska]

As soon as the auto period is over you are allowed to start climbing.

[Emma578]

when the robot can start climbing on the pyramid?

You Can Climb During Teleop But To Keep The Points You Need To Stay There Until The Match Ends!

[Taylor]

So...does this make scaling corners as difficult as I think it does?
I think the welds at the corners are what make corner-scaling difficult.


I keep thinking of climbing a ladder. A normal person would put a foot on one rung, a hand on the next, before starting the climb-this would not be a legal climb (three levels are contacted).
Taking it a step further - let's say the ladderclimber is standing on the first rung and tries to ascend to the second. This person is not allowed to touch the third rung for stability - (s)he must fully release from the first rung before contacting the second.
This with the understanding that each level begins with the horizontal plane tangential to the top of the rung - I can't think of how to consistently and explicitly contact a round horizontal member at only one point, and that one point exactly at the vertical top. But, this game is only 27 hours old, clarity may come.
The 1/9 opening time for Q&A feels like a lifetime away. Especially since the response time is historically such a wild card.

[vhcook]

As soon as the auto period is over you are allowed to start climbing.

I don't see a rule forbidding climbing in autonomous. Am I missing something?

Whether it's a good strategy is, of course, another problem.

[Ekcrbe]

I keep thinking of climbing a ladder. A normal person would put a foot on one rung, a hand on the next, before starting the climb-this would not be a legal climb (three levels are contacted).
Taking it a step further - let's say the ladderclimber is standing on the first rung and tries to ascend to the second. This person is not allowed to touch the third rung for stability - (s)he must fully release from the first rung before contacting the second.
Not the first rung, just the ground.
The first and second rung are consecutive levels.

[Taylor]

Not the first rung, just the ground.
The first and second rung are consecutive levels.

Right, but if Level 0 is considered a level, then there's a problem.

[rich2202]

I think the welds at the corners are what make corner-scaling difficult.


I think the bot can "ride" the corner pole, including the "bumps" at the junctions. The only plan I can think of to climb and not violate the 2 bar rule, is to cimb up the inside (which only has enough room for 1 bot), or climb up one of the corners.

Climbing up an outside side has the problem of: Eventually you can only hang on one bar as you grab the next higher one. When you are hanging, the center of mass will cause 1/2 your robot to hang inside the pyramid. Not a deal killer, but it takes additional motor power to swing the bot back to the outside of the pyramid to clear the lower bar.

For corner climbing, the bot grabs onto the horizontal pole on each side of the corner, and the thrid point of contact is the verticle pole. The verticle pole keeps the bot from swinging under the pyramid.

[gburlison]

You Can Climb During Teleop But To Keep The Points You Need To Stay There Until The Match Ends!

I have been searching for the section or rule that states you need to be on the pyramid at the end of the match to score the points. So far this is what I have found.

"3.1.5.2 CLIMB Points
Points are awarded for the highest Level achieved for every ALLIANCE ROBOT that CLIMBS its PYRAMID. The Level to which a ROBOT has CLIMBED is determined by the lowest point of the ROBOT (in relation to the FIELD). CLIMB
point values and Levels are defined in Figure 3-4.

A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID in
A. sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and
B. no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously.

If a CLIMB is considered unacceptable (e.g. a ROBOT has touched non-adjacent Levels or more than two (2) Levels at a time), a Referee will indicate a rejected CLIMB by turning the offending ROBOT’S PLAYER STATION LED strings yellow. The ROBOT will be ineligible for CLIMB points unless and until it begins a new CLIMB from the floor, Level 0.

3.2.1.4 G04
ROBOTS may only be removed from a PYRAMID under the following conditions:
A. by the TEAM,
B. unpowered,
C. and under the supervision of a FIRST Technical Advisor (FTA), FTA Assistant, Referee, or Field Supervisor."


This seem to imply that once a robot has climbed the pyramid correctly, the alliance will be awarded points determined by how high it has climbed. The is no mention of staying on the pyramid until the end of the match.

Rule G4 might apply since the robot would be removed from the pyramid in a manner inconsistent with G4, but since that rule is under the safety section of the rules, it is possible it only applies after the match is over. A violation of G4 results in a Yellow card but does not mention loss of points

Thoughts ?

[MetalJacket]

This seem to imply that once a robot has climbed the pyramid correctly, the alliance will be awarded points determined by how high it has climbed. The is no mention of staying on the pyramid until the end of the match.

Rule G4 might apply since the robot would be removed from the pyramid in a manner inconsistent with G4, but since that rule is under the safety section of the rules, it is possible it only applies after the match is over. A violation of G4 results in a Yellow card but does not mention loss of points

Thoughts ?
I believe this would be legal since, as you said, there is nothing saying you must remain in position to recieve points. Coming back down should be legal because the rule about what qualifies as an acceptable climb states that if a climb is ruled unacceptable, the robot will have to come down and restart the climb. I expect this will most likely be part of a rules clarification though.

[Radical Pi]

Rule G4 might apply since the robot would be removed from the pyramid in a manner inconsistent with G4, but since that rule is under the safety section of the rules, it is possible it only applies after the match is over. A violation of G4 results in a Yellow card but does not mention loss of points

Even that I'm doubting, since the rules pretty clearly say you can go all the way back down if your climb is ruled invalid:

If a CLIMB is considered unacceptable (e.g. a ROBOT has touched non-adjacent Levels or more than two (2) Levels at a time), a Referee will indicate a rejected CLIMB by turning the offending ROBOT’S PLAYER STATION LED strings yellow. The ROBOT will be ineligible for CLIMB points unless and until it begins a new CLIMB from the floor, Level 0.

[jason701802]

Points are awarded to ALLIANCES per the details below. Final scores will be assessed five (5) seconds after the ARENA timer displays zero (0) or when all elements come to rest, whichever event happens first.I think that makes it pretty clear that the official score is based on the position of the robot(s) (and Frisbees) 5 seconds after the end of the match

[pfreivald]

I think that makes it pretty clear that the official score is based on the position of the robot(s) (and Frisbees) 5 seconds after the end of the match

I agree, and assume they'll clarify early on.

[ScottOliveira]

So I have a thought concerning the legality of grabbing the second bar while on the ground.

You'll note that the rules specify:
A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID in
A. sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and
B. no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously.

However the Pyramid is defined as
PYRAMID: the Red or Blue steel structure on which ROBOTS CLIMB for points.

The carpet beneath the period is not a part of the steel structure, and therefore not a part of the defined pyramid. So, as long as you were to contact the Level 1 structure first, it could be legal to grab on to the Level 2 structure, while being in contact with the carpet, as you are not contacting the pyramid itself in Level 0.

That may not be intent of the rules, but the wording is very strange. The pyramid is defined as just the steel structure, and doesn't mention including the carpet beneath. And given that Figure 3-4 seems to show Level 0 as being below the actual structure of the pyramid, is it even possible to contact the pyramid in Level 0? Perhaps a rewording of 3.1.5.2 is necessary?

[pfreivald]

So I have a thought concerning the legality of grabbing the second bar while on the ground.

It's been noted. I'm sure it will be clarified quickly in the Q&A or team updates!

[Redo91]

I am unable to find the blog post where Frank discusses it, but this sounds like "lawyering". The intent, I believe, is for the robot to be supported only by the individual level before moving on to the next level.

Of course, a Q&A submission and team updates will say for sure what the ruling on this is.

[ScottOliveira]

I am unable to find the blog post where Frank discusses it, but this sounds like "lawyering". The intent, I believe, is for the robot to be supported only by the individual level before moving on to the next level.

Of course, a Q&A submission and team updates will say for sure what the ruling on this is.

No disagreement from me, I imagine the you are correct about the intent and this is definitely a lawyering of the rules. Simply trying to point out a possible oversight so that it can be addressed properly.

[cgmv123]

I think the manual makes it pretty clear that the floor is Level 0. Thus, you have to be completely supported by Bar 1 to touch Bar 2 and have it be part of a legal climb.

[jvriezen]

It would be great if the GDC puts out an update that includes diagrams of 'robots' climbing and showing legal and illegal climbing intermediate positions-- especially in relation to the floor and/or leg floor plates. Also examples that involve touching the legs of the pyramid. Sort of like they do for Ok/Not Ok bumper configurations.

[yara92]

Climbing the PYRAMID is the big deal this year

"how" we're going to climb the PYRAMID?

The simple way is the best may be Pnaumatics

[Alan Anderson]

I think the manual makes it pretty clear that the floor is Level 0.

It isn't quite so clear about the floor being part of the pyramid, though. This is one spot where I expect an update to the rules.

[cgmv123]

It isn't quite so clear about the floor being part of the pyramid, though. This is one spot where I expect an update to the rules.

But for the purpose of climbing, the floor counts as a level. It doesn't matter whether or not it's part of the pyramid for the purposes of climbing.

A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID and/or the floor (Level 0) in

A. sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent

[BigJ]

But for the purpose of climbing, the floor counts as a level. It doesn't matter whether or not it's part of the pyramid for the purposes of climbing.

(to give Alan some credit, this was just clarified in the rules update today :) )

[Bob Steele]

(to give Alan some credit, this was just clarified in the rules update today :) )

Yes Alan successfully predicted the update!!!
:0)

Before the update it was not clear that floor contact made any difference in climbing.

[rich2202]

Well, the rule change clarified whether you can touch the floor and bar 2 at the same time - Not!

Another scenario:

The bar is at the top of a level. When you grab on the bar, part of your apparatus is above the bar, and in the higher level. Since it is not touching the pyramid above the bar, that is not a problem.

Issue:

What if you are grabbing at the corner? Or, if you want to grab the corner? Then, you will come into contact with a portion of the vertical pole that is above the horizontal bar.

Question:

Is there a portion of the vertical pole, immediately above the bar, that can considered part of the lower zone if another portion of the robot it touching the pyramid in the lower zone?

If you are below the bar, then you want to be able to grab the corner and climb up, and incidentally be contacting the pyramid in the higher zone. Similarly, you could be a fraction of an inch above the lower bar, be contacting the vertical bar a fraction of an inch above the corner, grabbing onto the next higher bar, and should be considered as touching the higher zone (not touching any other part of the pyramid in the lower zone).

It would be helpful to allow the 5 inches (or whatever nominal amount) of the vertical pole above a corner to be considered part of the lower zone if the robot is touching any other part of the pyramid in the lower zone. Or, for purposes of the 2 zone rule, the 5 inches of the vertical pole immediately above a corner is considered to be in whichever zone (actual zone, or immediately lower zone) that is most advantageous for the robot.

[Siri]

Well, the rule change clarified whether you can touch the floor and bar 2 at the same time - Not! ...I'm not sure what you mean. The second bar is between Levels 2 and 3--certainly that's well out of the realm of "sequential" with zero regardless of what fraction of an inch they could ever allow in tolerance...

[vikesrock777]

What if you are grabbing at the corner? Or, if you want to grab the corner? Then, you will come into contact with a portion of the vertical pole that is above the horizontal bar.
...
It would be helpful to allow the 5 inches of the vertical pole above a corner to be considered part of the lower zone if the robot is touching any other part of the pyramid in the lower zone.

Although this would be helpful when it comes to simplifying designs, it seems as if the intent, based upon Figure 3-4 of the manual, is that any part of the pyramid located above the horizontal bars making up the corners is to be designated as the next level. If you want to grab onto the corners for climbing, you're going to need to be careful to avoid the vertical pole. That's part of the design challenge.

[JesseK]

There's a lot of word substitution in this thread. If you guys would read the rules, and stop substituting translations in place of the literal words, the rules are quite clear.

The rules don't invalidate a climb if a robot isn't supported by a level on the way up (i.e. if a 'robot' flew to the top while sequentially touching the horizontal rungs on the way, it'd be a valid climb)
The gusset plate is a perfectly valid thing to touch on the way up
The 0.25" above the gusset plate on the angled bar is a perfectly valid place to touch on the way up (good luck proving to the refs that your bot ONLY went that high)
The angled bar above the horizontal rungs are the next zone up, no matter how the rules are interpretted.
-Literal- The pyramid is a steel structure. Climbing is defined as robot contact with the pyramid. Zones are defined by planar dimensions.
-Derived- Steel isn't made of air. Zones are not made up of air.
-Conclusion- A robot doesn't contact a zone.


The laws of physics pretty much derive everything else we need to know. Just like inserting one's own wishes into the laws of physics leads to epic fail, replacing rule wordings leads to unhappy FRC teams.

[Siri]

There's a lot of word substitution in this thread. If you guys would read the rules, and stop substituting translations in place of the literal words, the rules are quite clear.

The rules don't invalidate a climb if a robot isn't supported by a level on the way up (i.e. if a 'robot' flew to the top while sequentially touching the horizontal rungs on the way, it'd be a valid climb)
The gusset plate is a perfectly valid thing to touch on the way up
The 0.25" above the gusset plate on the angled bar is a perfectly valid place to touch on the way up (good luck proving to the refs that your bot ONLY went that high)
The angled bar above the horizontal rungs are the next zone up, no matter how the rules are interpretted.
-Literal- The pyramid is a steel structure. Climbing is defined as robot contact with the pyramid. Zones are defined by planar dimensions.
-Derived- Steel isn't made of air. Zones are not made up of air.
-Conclusion- A robot doesn't contact a zone.


The laws of physics pretty much derive everything else we need to know. Just like inserting one's own wishes into the laws of physics leads to epic fail, replacing rule wordings leads to unhappy FRC teams.Actually, CLIMBING is considered "contact[ing] the PYRAMID and/or the floor (Level 0)" ...which makes me wonder what led you to believe that a robot flying up needs to touch the horizontal rungs or anything else on the pyramid, provided it takes off from the floor*? In fact, even if the floor didn't count, why would you need to touch it beyond Level 1?

*Not doing so would be a violation of G05-C anyway.

EDIT: This actually does have relevance to a viable CLIMBING strategy (not just flying).

[pfreivald]

Actually, CLIMBING is considered "contact[ing] the PYRAMID and/or the floor (Level 0)" ...which makes me wonder what led you to believe that a robot flying up needs to touch the horizontal rungs or anything else on the pyramid, provided it takes off from the floor*? In fact, even if the floor didn't count, why would you need to touch it beyond Level 1?

*Not doing so would be a violation of G05-C anyway.

EDIT: This actually does have relevance to a viable CLIMBING strategy (not just flying).

The Q&A has clarified that sequential contact of each zone is necessary for a climb to be valid.

[JesseK]

what led you to believe that a robot flying up needs to touch the horizontal rungs or anything else on the pyramid

The laws of physics, 5 seconds after the end of the match. Oh, and that pesky line that's right underneath your quoted line in the rules, about sequential contact.

[Siri]

The laws of physics, 5 seconds after the end of the match. Oh, and that pesky line that's right underneath your quoted line in the rules, about sequential contact.1. That's why I edited it to clarify I wasn't talking about flying. (Suspension, for example, though I guess legally* floating could work)
2. Yes, and I have contacted the floor, which means I am considered to have climbed, no?

A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID and/or the floor (Level 0) in

A. sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and
B. no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously.

@pfreivald: ah, would you mind quoting this? I can't identify find which you're referring to: quick Q&A link (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Questions.php).

I only see 3 answered so far, and the only climbing contact one (Q6) is "Can the robot go from the floor to level 2 while climbing the pyramid or does it have to climb to level 1 first and then level 2?", which is not on point and just restates the rule above.



*Legally by the laws of FIRST of course, the laws of physics are much more picky on that subject. But suspension, nonetheless.

[pfreivald]

@pfreivald: ah, would you mind quoting this? I can't identify find which you're referring to: quick Q&A link (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Questions.php).

I only see 3 answered so far, and the only climbing contact one (Q6) is "Can the robot go from the floor to level 2 while climbing the pyramid or does it have to climb to level 1 first and then level 2?", which is not on point and just restates the rule above.



*Legally by the laws of FIRST of course, the laws of physics are much more picky on that subject. But suspension, nonetheless.

The answer to Q6 tells us that one must contact the PYRAMID and/or the floor in sequential order, and that skipping a level would not meet the requirement. 0, 3 is not sequential order.

[ticoloco12]

but could you say perhaps have a robot, on the floor, touch the first rung (level 1) then reach to level level 2 (second rung) and pull itself up?

That is, go from 0, to 1, to 2, but, let go of 1 before letting go of 0, as to only be in contact with 2 zones at a time?

it seems to me this satisfies, sequential order, and only touching two at a time

the rules do not demand using zone 1 to propel youreself to zone 2. you could do it from 0, as long as you contact zone 1, and let go of it before contacting zone 2.

[ticoloco12]

by my interpretation of the rules JesseK is right.

A robot could fly up to the 3rd zone, as long as it kisses each level...

[vikesrock777]

but could you say perhaps have a robot, on the floor, touch the first rung (level 1) then reach to level level 2 (second rung) and pull itself up?

That is, go from 0, to 1, to 2, but, let go of 1 before letting go of 0, as to only be in contact with 2 zones at a time?

it seems to me this satisfies, sequential order, and only touching two at a time

the rules do not demand using zone 1 to propel youreself to zone 2. you could do it from 0, as long as you contact zone 1, and let go of it before contacting zone 2.
I don't think that this interpretation would be true. If you contact level 0 and 1, then let go of level 1, your climb has been reset. You are now starting your sequence over, and lifting by contacting zone 2 from the floor is, obviously, out of sequence and not a valid climb. . To support this statement I leave you an excerpt form section 3.1.5.2 of the game manual.
If a CLIMB is considered unacceptable (e.g. a ROBOT has touched non-adjacent Levels or more than two (2) Levels at a time emphasis mine.

[ticoloco12]

I see you poit, I guess the clarification needed is if that means "touched non-adjacent Levels" only

That is, if the climb restarts even if the clear intent is in making that all one climb.

essentially, I think only an Official FIRST clarification can solve this...

Both answers seem equally likely to be correct to me

[Siri]

The answer to Q6 tells us that one must contact the PYRAMID and/or the floor in sequential order, and that skipping a level would not meet the requirement. 0, 3 is not sequential order.In this scenario, I would have no intention of contacting Level 3. I would receive 30 hanging points because "The Level to which a ROBOT has CLIMBED is determined by the lowest point of the ROBOT (in relation to the FIELD)", which has nothing to do with contact but rather with position in space. As far as I can tell, there is no rule that says you must be in contact with the pyramid at the time this position is measured in order to receive points.

I realize this is not a common scenario, but we do have a potential climbing apparatus that makes suspension largely trivial, so I'm curious. I'm not claiming it'll happen often, but there were a few suspensions in 2010.

[JesseK]

Interesting point Siri. Though I think that the coordination and resources spent in Robot A supporting Robot B above 30" would have been better spent by Robot A creating a solo 20-pt climber and picking a different Robot B which could do a 10-pt solo climb. With that said...

Essentially, since level 0 (the floor) is considered part of the climb now, nothing says a robot can't flop down a 1/16" thick ABS sheet (or whatever your favorite flavor of material is), have another robot drive onto it, and get 10 climb points anywhere on the field. As far as I can tell (solely from 3.1.5.2), it still fits the definition of a climb in the current form without any "interpretation". That's a creative perspective that is perfectly within the clear definition of the current rules... totally overlooked by many (like me) I bet. It's a perfectly legitimate way to 'climb' for a team who has next to no budget and is already close to the weight limit before adding a climbing device in.

I suspect that this isn't the intent and will get updated out of strategy playbooks, but who knows.

[pfreivald]

but could you say perhaps have a robot, on the floor, touch the first rung (level 1) then reach to level level 2 (second rung) and pull itself up?

That is, go from 0, to 1, to 2, but, let go of 1 before letting go of 0, as to only be in contact with 2 zones at a time?

No, you have to satisfy both requirements -- touch only two, and touch only sequentially. If you let go of 1 before letting go of zero, you're now touching the set [0,2], which is non-sequential.

In this scenario, I would have no intention of contacting Level 3. I would receive 30 hanging points because "The Level to which a ROBOT has CLIMBED is determined by the lowest point of the ROBOT (in relation to the FIELD)", which has nothing to do with contact but rather with position in space. As far as I can tell, there is no rule that says you must be in contact with the pyramid at the time this position is measured in order to receive points.

I realize this is not a common scenario, but we do have a potential climbing apparatus that makes suspension largely trivial, so I'm curious. I'm not claiming it'll happen often, but there were a few suspensions in 2010.

Ah, I understand now. If you're referring to robots picking up other robots from the ground and then lifting them above certain zones, I can only answer with this:

I don't care. It's not going to happen with sufficient frequency* to matter the slightest bit to my team.



*I'd be shocked if it happens at all...

[Siri]

Ah, I understand now. If you're referring to robots picking up other robots from the ground and then lifting them above certain zones, I can only answer with this:

I don't care. It's not going to happen with sufficient frequency* to matter the slightest bit to my team.



*I'd be shocked if it happens at all...I'm mostly asking for some of my kids who are intrigued (encouraging creativity and all). Even if we do implement the parts to facilitate this--which we'd only do if it were as trivial as is ever possible in FIRST, but this is possible (preferably if our collaboration pulled through on the suspendee side)--I wouldn't expect us to execute more than a handful of times. You know, like the same number of times crazy triple balance stackers needed to win a blue banner. ;) Given the number of people that wrote that off last year and similar work years prior, better to know now than at alliance selection.

[pfreivald]

I'm mostly asking for some of my kids who are intrigued (encouraging creativity and all). Even if we do implement the parts to facilitate this--which we'd only do if it were as trivial as is ever possible in FIRST, but this is possible (preferably if our collaboration pulled through on the suspendee side)--I wouldn't expect us to execute more than a handful of times. You know, like the same number of times crazy triple balance stackers needed to win a blue banner. ;) Given the number of people that wrote that off last year and similar work years prior, better to know now than at alliance selection.

All true enough -- it's just far enough off my radar in terms of what needs to happen in the next six weeks that I'm not going to spend very many brain cells on it. :)

[Player61]

Hey guys I have a ? . Does anyone know if there is a rule for going up the tower to far. As in havering your robot extending past the top of the tower?

[Karibou]

Hey guys I have a ? . Does anyone know if there is a rule for going up the tower to far. As in havering your robot extending past the top of the tower?
I think that this Q&A response might answer your question. There isn't a vertical limit for the field in the rulebook, just the height limit for robots.

From the "Scoring" section of the Q&A
Q.Is the section of the pyramid above the Zone 3 border as shown in Team update 1 considered a separate zone for climb legality purposes? For example, would touching the pyramid above the Zone 3 line while still in contact with the zone 2 bar be considered a violation of the Sequential zone rule or the 2 zone rule?
A.There is no upper bound to Level 3.

[kmusa]

What Karibou said. However, the sides of the pyramid go vertical above the 3rd rung - a potential obstacle for mechanisms that extend parallel to the climbing portions of the sides.

-Karlis

[Player61]

I was also wondering if there are any rules for going to high on the tower ? as in you robot extends up past the top of the tower?

[danopia]

I was also wondering if there are any rules for going to high on the tower ? as in you robot extends up past the top of the tower?
Don't CONTACT anything outside of the FIELD

[CalTran]

I was also wondering if there are any rules for going to high on the tower ? as in you robot extends up past the top of the tower?

Like said, don't contact the outside of the field.

There was also a GDC ruling on the Q&A that there is no upper bound for Level 3.

[cgmv123]

Don't CONTACT anything outside of the FIELD

Like the roof of the building. ;)

[Kevin Sevcik]

In this scenario, I would have no intention of contacting Level 3. I would receive 30 hanging points because "The Level to which a ROBOT has CLIMBED is determined by the lowest point of the ROBOT (in relation to the FIELD)", which has nothing to do with contact but rather with position in space. As far as I can tell, there is no rule that says you must be in contact with the pyramid at the time this position is measured in order to receive points.

I realize this is not a common scenario, but we do have a potential climbing apparatus that makes suspension largely trivial, so I'm curious. I'm not claiming it'll happen often, but there were a few suspensions in 2010.I Q&A'd this and (more or less) the 1/16" ABS sheet "climb" just for thoroughness.

[Night_Shade]

Does any one know if the robot's starting position can have a hook over the 30'' bar?!?!

[lemiant]

Does any one know if the robot's starting position can have a hook over the 30'' bar?!?!

G05
When placed on the FIELD, each ROBOT must be:

in compliance with all ROBOT rules (i.e. have passed Inspection),
confined to its STARTING CONFIGURATION,
fully supported by the floor, and
contacting its PYRAMID.

So I'm going with no. If it is touching the bar at all, then some miniscule amount of weight is being supported by the bar, violating the "fully supported by the bar" condition. Although it depends on how lenient FIRST is (Q & A maybe). A hook that begins hovering over the bar should be fine, however.

[Kevin Sevcik]

So I'm going with no. If it is touching the bar at all, then some miniscule amount of weight is being supported by the bar, violating the "fully supported by the bar" condition. Although it depends on how lenient FIRST is (Q & A maybe). A hook that begins hovering over the bar should be fine, however.By that reasoning, you can't start a robot touching the outside of one of the corner poles, because the pole would be supporting some small amount of the robot's weight.

I think starting with your hook touching the rung is legal. Or poised over the rung so pulling it in will grab the rung. I'm pretty sure the "fully supported by the floor" clause is to keep teams from starting with a robot already hanging from the pyramid.

[GaryVoshol]

Remember that your hook has to be with your frame perimeter in starting configuration. No "mushroom" bots.

[rsegrest]

Question:

Are bumpers considered part of the robot? i.e. The robot frame is hanging from top rung, the bottom of the frame is suspended just above the middle rung, the bottom of the bumper is hanging just below the middle rung....what zone are you technically in 2 or 3?

Thanks guys...

[pfreivald]

Question:

Are bumpers considered part of the robot? i.e. The robot frame is hanging from top rung, the bottom of the frame is suspended just above the middle rung, the bottom of the bumper is hanging just below the middle rung....what zone are you technically in 2 or 3?

Thanks guys...

Today's team update answers that question: yes, the bumpers count for volumetric considerations. (Thus, you'd be in zone two).

[rsegrest]

Actually, I'm a dufus, should have checked Q&A same question posted two days ago and yes the answer is bumpers count...Thanks pfreivald :)

[pfreivald]

Actually, I'm a dufus, should have checked Q&A same question posted two days ago and yes the answer is bumpers count...Thanks pfreivald :)

Oddly enough, I remembered reading it yesterday, but I scoured the Q&A in order to better answer your question, and I just couldn't find it!

[Kit Fieldhouse]

I just read through the QA documentation for the climbing rules and from what I can gather your robot can only be in contact with two levels the air space between them only comes into account when scoring. Therefor you could grab level one lift off the ground then grab level two and then grab level 3 while letting go of level 2. So your robot would be grabbing level one and level three simultaneously without braking the rules because A)You contacted the pyramid in sequential order and B) You are in 3 "air spaces" but are contacting only 2 levels making it legal. Again this is just my take I recommend that you check for yourself with this attached file. Good luck to all!!!!!! :)

[Kevin Sevcik]

I just read through the QA documentation for the climbing rules and from what I can gather your robot can only be in contact with two levels the air space between them only comes into account when scoring. Therefor you could grab level one lift off the ground then grab level two and then grab level 3 while letting go of level 2. So your robot would be grabbing level one and level three simultaneously without braking the rules because A)You contacted the pyramid in sequential order and B) You are in 3 "air spaces" but are contacting only 2 levels making it legal. Again this is just my take I recommend that you check for yourself with this attached file. Good luck to all!!!!!! :)You are incorrect sir.Q. Will this CLIMB be considered valid according to Section 3.1.5.2 A and B: The ROBOT is touching the first rung. Afterwards the ROBOT grabs the third rung, while breaking contact with the first rung. During the ROBOT's climb to the third level, it touches the second rung, and reaches the third level.
A. No. The ROBOT contacts PYRAMID Levels in a non-sequential order (Level 1 then Level 3).Your scenario is pretty much identical to this. The GDC has been saying that the sequential order rule really means you can't be touching two non-sequential levels at the same time. 1 and 3 are non-sequential, so your method is an invalid climb.

[rich2202]

Essentially, since level 0 (the floor) is considered part of the climb now, nothing says a robot can't flop down a 1/16" thick ABS sheet (or whatever your favorite flavor of material is), have another robot drive onto it, and get 10 climb points anywhere on the field. As far as I can tell (solely from 3.1.5.2), it still fits the definition of a climb in the current form without any "interpretation".

The ABS would be considered part of the robot. You can't leave anything behind.

Now, if you put a bunch of discs on the floor by the pyramid, and drove onto the discs, then you would no longer be in contact with level 0. If you then touched bar 1, that would satisfy sequential. You could then touch bar 2.

[pfreivald]

The ABS would be considered part of the robot. You can't leave anything behind.

Now, if you put a bunch of discs on the floor by the pyramid, and drove onto the discs, then you would no longer be in contact with level 0. If you then touched bar 1, that would satisfy sequential. You could then touch bar 2.

G16. TEAMS and/or ROBOTS may not employ strategies that use DISCS to either aid or inhibit a ROBOT CLIMB.

[engunneer]

He was also referring to dropping the abs for someone else to drive on. It would be tricky inside the 54" cylinder.

[Kit Fieldhouse]

You are incorrect sir.Your scenario is pretty much identical to this. The GDC has been saying that the sequential order rule really means you can't be touching two non-sequential levels at the same time. 1 and 3 are non-sequential, so your method is an invalid climb.

Q.In order to be a valid climb in sequential order, a robot must be fully supported by zone 1 (off the
ground), prior to contacting zone 2. In other words, a robot cannot be touching Zone 0 and
touching zone 2 at the same time. Is this a correct statement?

A.The first statement in this submission is incorrect. The requirements in Section 3.1.5.2 A and B
pertain to the ROBOT'S contact with the PYRAMID structure and/or floor within each Level, not the
ROBOT'S presence in the physical space of the Level.

If you were right then wouldn't this have to be wrong? :confused:

[Siri]

The GDC has just revised several climbing rule Q&As in order to restrict the suspension strategies authorized a week ago:

Q: Is it a valid climb and 30 points if robot A is used as a base and is touching the pyramid with its bumper while on the floor at level 0. Robot B roles onto robot A and is lifted straight up by robot A past the 30 inch and 60 inch height requirements for level 2 & 3. Robot A is touching level 0.
A: Please see Q107. We have revised the answer to this question because, after further discussion, we agree that the answer above does in fact conflict with the Game Manual and the intent of the language in the Game Manual. Please accept our apologies. Please see the revised answer for Q107.

Q: Is a robot that only contacts Level 0 considered to have CLIMBED for the purpose of receiving CLIMB points as "determined by the lowest point of the ROBOT" as appropriate? For instance, this would require that contacting only Level 0 constitute contacting in "sequential order" during ascent
A: Yes. We have revised the answer to this question because, after further discussion, we agree that the answer above does in fact conflict with the Game Manual and the intent of the language in the Game Manual. Please accept our apologies. The revised answer is no, a ROBOT that has only contacted the floor in Level 0, but ascended, is not eligible for CLIMB points.

Q: Assume Robot A makes a valid climb to Level 3. 1) If Robot A grapples Robot B and hoists Robot B completely above the first rung, does Robot B score 20 points? Robot B has only touched Level 0 of the pyramid, and has not touched two non-consecutive levels at the same time.
A: Yes. ROBOT B would have completed a valid climb to Level 2 per the criteria outlined in Section 3.1.5.2. We have revised the answer to this question because, after further discussion, we agree that the answer above does in fact conflict with the Game Manual and the intent of the language in the Game Manual. Please accept our apologies. 1) No, per Section 3.1.5.2, in order for a ROBOT to have CLIMBED the PYRAMID, it must contact the PYRAMID in the Levels in sequential order during ascent. In this example Robot B contacted Level 0, but not the PYRAMID in Levels 1 and 2 as it ascended and is therefore not eligible for CLIMB points.

What's up with all these Q&A contradictions/changes?

[AllenGregoryIV]

The GDC has just revised several climbing rule Q&As in order to restrict the suspension strategies authorized a week ago:

Q: Is it a valid climb and 30 points if robot A is used as a base and is touching the pyramid with its bumper while on the floor at level 0. Robot B roles onto robot A and is lifted straight up by robot A past the 30 inch and 60 inch height requirements for level 2 & 3. Robot A is touching level 0.
A: Please see Q107. We have revised the answer to this question because, after further discussion, we agree that the answer above does in fact conflict with the Game Manual and the intent of the language in the Game Manual. Please accept our apologies. Please see the revised answer for Q107.

Q: Is a robot that only contacts Level 0 considered to have CLIMBED for the purpose of receiving CLIMB points as "determined by the lowest point of the ROBOT" as appropriate? For instance, this would require that contacting only Level 0 constitute contacting in "sequential order" during ascent
A: Yes. We have revised the answer to this question because, after further discussion, we agree that the answer above does in fact conflict with the Game Manual and the intent of the language in the Game Manual. Please accept our apologies. The revised answer is no, a ROBOT that has only contacted the floor in Level 0, but ascended, is not eligible for CLIMB points.

Q: Assume Robot A makes a valid climb to Level 3. 1) If Robot A grapples Robot B and hoists Robot B completely above the first rung, does Robot B score 20 points? Robot B has only touched Level 0 of the pyramid, and has not touched two non-consecutive levels at the same time.
A: Yes. ROBOT B would have completed a valid climb to Level 2 per the criteria outlined in Section 3.1.5.2. We have revised the answer to this question because, after further discussion, we agree that the answer above does in fact conflict with the Game Manual and the intent of the language in the Game Manual. Please accept our apologies. 1) No, per Section 3.1.5.2, in order for a ROBOT to have CLIMBED the PYRAMID, it must contact the PYRAMID in the Levels in sequential order during ascent. In this example Robot B contacted Level 0, but not the PYRAMID in Levels 1 and 2 as it ascended and is therefore not eligible for CLIMB points.

What's up with all these Q&A contradictions/changes?

I started a thread here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=111454) to discuss these changes. I think it needs its own thread so more people see it.