Climbing Up and back again

[Grim Tuesday]

We have come upon an interesting issue with the climbing rules. It seems that nothing requires the robot remain on the tower at the end of the game--scoring is based upon reaching a level of the tower. See rule 3.1.5.2:

Points are awarded for the highest Level achieved for every ALLIANCE ROBOT that CLIMBS its PYRAMID. The Level to which a ROBOT has CLIMBED is determined by the lowest point of the ROBOT (in relation to the FIELD). CLIMB point values and Levels are defined in Figure 3-4.




Emphasis mine. Does this mean that a robot may climb up the tower at the beginning of the game, validate a climb, and have the score count at the end even if they immediately descend?

Also, from the introduction:

Teams earn additional points by CLIMBING their ALLIANCE’S PYRAMID by the end of the MATCH.

Emphasis mine. Note the by the end of the match not at the end of the match.

Another relevant rule:
A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID in

sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and
no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously.


If a CLIMB is considered unacceptable (e.g. a ROBOT has touched non-adjacent Levels or more than two (2) Levels at a time), a Referee will indicate a rejected CLIMB by turning the offending ROBOT’S PLAYER STATION LED strings yellow. The ROBOT will be ineligible for CLIMB points unless and until it begins a new CLIMB from the floor, Level 0.

Assuming your climb is validated when you reach the top, must you follow the rules when descending (ie, could you go level 0,1,2,3,1,0)?

[Racer26]

My suspicion is each ROBOT can only receive points for one CLIMB in a given MATCH, and if the rules don't explicitly say so somewhere, that it will likely be fixed in a Team Update.

It wouldn't be very exciting to watch a match consisting of robots playing elevator on the pyramids.

[Grim Tuesday]

My suspicion is each ROBOT can only receive points for one CLIMB in a given MATCH, and if the rules don't explicitly say so somewhere, that it will likely be fixed in a Team Update.

It wouldn't be very exciting to watch a match consisting of robots playing elevator on the pyramids.

Well they do say that the only points scored are for the highest achieved by a robot so they can't just jiggle up and down between layers for infinite points.

I have to note that the animation explicitly says that robots must remain there at the end of the game so maybe that was (very sadly) the GDC's intent.

[ipburbank]

Another proposed argument against the possibility of climbing up, earning points, and climbing back down is G4:

G4 ROBOTS may only be removed from a PYRAMID under the following conditions:
A. by the TEAM,
B. unpowered,
C. and under the supervision of a FIRST Technical Advisor (FTA), FTA Assistant, Referee, or Field
Supervisor.

G4 doesn't specifically make exceptions for the robot removing itself during the match under its own power, however, I counter this argument with the following quote which implies that a robot may remove itself from the pyramid:

[...] begins a new CLIMB from the floor, Level 0

[MatthewWalker]

Definitely something they need to clarify, and quick! :confused:

[Tetraman]

A FAQ question, sure to be addressed in the first Team Update for sure.

[CubeNinja]

I have to note that the animation explicitly says that robots must remain there at the end of the game so maybe that was (very sadly) the GDC's intent.

From the animation: "Robots can climb up the sides or corners of the pyramid, but they have to remain there as the game ends to collect their bonuses."

[IisMathwizard]

This doesn't make sense. From the manual, however, it doesn't state this. Perhaps an update is in the future???

[Sam390250]

The rules are certainly misleading, however I am trying to understand the advantage of this... The only one I see is if you did it in autonomous mode to get it out of the way and then could focus on scoring discs the rest of the round. But depending on your method, it might waste a lot of time climbing back down safely.

[Basel A]

The game animation is not official and shouldn't be relied upon. here's my interpretation of why you're incorrect, but it's not absolute.


3.2.4.2: The Level to which a ROBOT has CLIMBED is determined by the lowest point of the ROBOT.

3.2.4 Final scores will be assess five seconds after the ARENA timer displays zero or when all elements come to rest, whichever event happens first.


To me, this suggests that that the climb is assessed after the end of the match. I believe the "highest Level" language is because a Level 3 climb also counts as a Level 2 climb and a Level 1 climb, not because of multiple tries. Ask the Q&A.

[iPenguin]

Just to pull from section 1 of the game manual:
The match ends with robots attempting to climb on pyramids located near the middle of the field.
Emphasis mine.

Also:
I believe the "highest Level" language is because a Level 3 climb also counts as a Level 2 climb and a Level 1 climb, not because of multiple tries. Ask the Q&A.
A level 3 climb cannot count as a level 2 climb (and so on) because the level is determined by the lowest point of the robot.

[Rishabhgadi]

So, basically you can't have a "system" attach at level two and pull you up, you have to go one at a time?

[iPenguin]

So, basically you can't have a "system" attach at level two and pull you up, you have to go one at a time?

The way I see it, yes. You have to go from the floor (Level 0) to level 1. Then before you get to level 2, you have to get up off the floor. And before you get to level 3, you have to get off level 1.

[mama_tree]

Adding 2 questions to this discussion:

1. Can you use another robot to assist you in your "climb"?
2. Is your robot allowed to start inside the pyramid?

[MetalJacket]

Adding 2 questions to this discussion:

1. Can you use another robot to assist you in your "climb"?
2. Is your robot allowed to start inside the pyramid?

The manual states that a robot may support another robot only if one or both are in contact with the pyramid so, like in the animation, one robot may assist another up onto the pyramid.
There is nothing from what I hae seen that restricts where you start your climb so long as you touch the levels in the proper order.

[jlmcmchl]

Adding 2 questions to this discussion:

1. Can you use another robot to assist you in your "climb"?
2. Is your robot allowed to start inside the pyramid?

Just as MetalJacket said, and as in the video, that is possible. Team RUSH spent time discussing this, and it appears legal. If you skip Zone 1 in doing so, though, is something we could not determine it's legality.

Actually, that seems what FIRST is encouraging, especially with including the belay system. There are four basic ways to climb the pyramid. The first is by climbing the pyramid from the inside, using the horizontal rods. The second is by climbing the vertical rods from the inside. The third is by climbing the horizontal rods on the outside, and the fourth is by climbing the vertical rod from the outside. The fourth system seems easiest at first, until you realize that you still have to figure out how to bypass the cross beams in the 1st and 2nd Zones. On the inside, you have four different surfaces you can cling to, though really that's more like two due to regulations on extensions. Nonetheless, it looks like FIRST is trying to make it easy to climb on the inside, though then you must have a very short bot if you want to get 30 pts, which then poses many engineering challenges.

Good Luck!

[rich2202]

The only problem with climbing from the inside is that there is only enough room on the inside for one bot to get to the top.

One benefit from not staying at the level (and scoring) is if the robot falls. Let's say the bot clears level 3 (abiding by the climbing rules), and the hook breaks, and the bot falls. Technically, it has climbed and earned the level 3 points (no requirement to remain at level 3 at the end of the game). It has also not violated Rule g4 since the removal from the Pyramid is unpowered

[bobdabobman]

That is incorrect because of the game animation and also...

3.2.4 Final scores will be assess five seconds after the ARENA timer displays zero or when all elements come to rest, whichever event happens first.

[Richard Wallace]

T... the hook breaks, and the bot falls. Bad news if the robot is damaged by the fall.

If you've designed the robot to withstand the fall (?) then this strategy might be a violation of G13, since you've left the hook behind.

[EricH]

That is incorrect because of the game animation and also...

3.2.4 Final scores will be assess five seconds after the ARENA timer displays zero or when all elements come to rest, whichever event happens first.

I would argue two things on this.

First, the game animation is NOT the rules. Mr. Dave Lavery, who makes the animations, has said as much himself. (He also has been known to say that the game animation complies with all the rules as much as possible, at the time it is made, but the rules may change without time to make a change in the animation.)

Second, the final score is the score with everything scored. If the score is based on the highest level attained at any point in the game, then it is entirely possible for a robot to attain a Level 3 CLIMB, go back down the pyramid, score some more, and still have the score count. By arguing solely based on that rule's 2012 (or earlier) equivalent, using your interpretation, I can make a pretty decent case that a VERY large number of matches in the past should have ended at 0-0 or other similar ties because there was no game object traveling into the goals at the end of the match; perhaps most blatantly in 2008.

As far as the original question, I think that the intent was made clear in the animation, but not in the rulebook. In my opinion, the spirit of the rule is that climbing down will not score the points; however, the letter of the rule does not reflect that at this time. Based on past experience of the GDC's methods, I would expect this to be one of the items addressed in the first update to the rules, without a need for Q&A.

[mandrews281]

Our current interpretation is that they can climb down and get the climb points. We think the video is showing the robot being helped up and the point is that once they are helped up, they have to stay there on their own. So you can't drive up a ramp robot, hit the pyramid as you fall off and get 10 points. But this interpretation is by no means unanimous.

[Grim Tuesday]

I would argue two things on this.

First, the game animation is NOT the rules. Mr. Dave Lavery, who makes the animations, has said as much himself. (He also has been known to say that the game animation complies with all the rules as much as possible, at the time it is made, but the rules may change without time to make a change in the animation.)

Second, the final score is the score with everything scored. If the score is based on the highest level attained at any point in the game, then it is entirely possible for a robot to attain a Level 3 CLIMB, go back down the pyramid, score some more, and still have the score count. By arguing solely based on that rule's 2012 (or earlier) equivalent, using your interpretation, I can make a pretty decent case that a VERY large number of matches in the past should have ended at 0-0 or other similar ties because there was no game object traveling into the goals at the end of the match; perhaps most blatantly in 2008.

As far as the original question, I think that the intent was made clear in the animation, but not in the rulebook. In my opinion, the spirit of the rule is that climbing down will not score the points; however, the letter of the rule does not reflect that at this time. Based on past experience of the GDC's methods, I would expect this to be one of the items addressed in the first update to the rules, without a need for Q&A.

I'm with you Eric, I think the intent in the animation is clear but the rules to me seem to be clear in the opposite direction. Again, 3.1.5.2:

A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID in

sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and...

It isn't the existing in those spaces, it is the contacting of those spaces.

That said, I wouldn't be (and won't be) planning my strategy on that and I expect it will be fixed in the first team update (maybe Tuesday?).

[Kevin Sevcik]

The rules definitely don't have anything about having to maintain your position to get the bonus. The video definitely does imply that. I can see the GDC going either way on this, really. My main question is why you'd want to design a robot that can come down anyways. I can't see much advantage to it aside from scoring the 10 points for level 1 quickly then driving off and playing the game. For any of the other levels, it seems like it'd be more complicated than its worth to design a mechanism that can lift and lower itself. All you're getting yourself is the time wasted coming back down.

[AlexJamesCross]

So to be sure the robot is allowed to climb up and down again on miltiple occasions but only the first climb counts also you need to hook to first bar on the pyramid then hook the second bar than the third? This year is confsing

[Gdeaver]

If you "hook" the first bar are you not in zone 0,1 and 2? Not a legal climb. You would have to attach below the first bar and lift off of zone 0 and then engage in zone 2 and continue the climb. Seams they really do mean climb. This is hard.

[pfreivald]

I think the hardest part of the climbing is that you can't touch any part of level two while still touching the floor. It makes things very, very interesting.

As to why you might want to climb up and then back down, I can think of at least one good reason even if you intend to re-climb back up at the very end of the game!

[Alan Anderson]

If you "hook" the first bar are you not in zone 0,1 and 2?

If you hook the first bar, you are contacting the pyramid only in zone 1. As long as you don't touch any part of the pyramid's leg above zone 1 before you pull off the floor, you're not in three zones at the same time.

[Gdeaver]

I see the word "contact" being the key. The mechanism would protrude into the 2nd zone but not be in contact with the pyramid in zone 2. Teams need to watch all q and a and team updates on anything to do with the pyramid.
A slight change to any wording could have great impact on climbing strategies.

[Nemo]

It's early, so I suppose I should allow for a range of rule interpretation possibilities. But... you're nuts if you think the week 2 rules are going to allow you to do 20 chin-ups to get 200 points. If anybody designs their entire strategy around that perceived loophole, I will not feel sorry for them when the GDC committee predictably issues an update invalidating that strategy.

[hunterteam3476]

We have come upon an interesting issue with the climbing rules. It seems that nothing requires the robot remain on the tower at the end of the game--scoring is based upon reaching a level of the tower. See rule 3.1.5.2:




Emphasis mine. Does this mean that a robot may climb up the tower at the beginning of the game, validate a climb, and have the score count at the end even if they immediately descend?

Also, from the introduction:



Emphasis mine. Note the by the end of the match not at the end of the match.

Another relevant rule:


Assuming your climb is validated when you reach the top, must you follow the rules when descending (ie, could you go level 0,1,2,3,1,0)?



The rules are were ever you climb to, you have to stay there and last there 5sec, After the game has ended and you will be given point to every robot that can climb it and last there

[pfreivald]

The rules are were ever you climb to, you have to stay there and last there 5sec, After the game has ended and you will be given point to every robot that can climb it and last there

What rule says this?

[dodar]

What rule says this?

If a CLIMB is considered unacceptable (e.g. a ROBOT has touched non-adjacent Levels or more than two (2) Levels at a time), a Referee will indicate a rejected CLIMB by turning the offending ROBOT’S PLAYER STATION LED strings yellow. The ROBOT will be ineligible for CLIMB points unless and until it begins a new CLIMB from the floor, Level 0.

Actually the rules contradict what he says. The end of that little paragraph says you can drop back down and climb up again to get the amount of points that you want.

[Recla1mer 329]

im almost 100% positive that they intend for the robot to stay there to collect its bonus because with LOGO MOTION, team 329's minibot climbed the pole,hit the top, fell down and climbed back up several times yet did not recieve bonus points for the repeated climbs. im assuming it will be the same this year and will be corrected in an update

[Recla1mer 329]

Bad news if the robot is damaged by the fall.

If you've designed the robot to withstand the fall (?) then this strategy might be a violation of G13, since you've left the hook behind.

not necessarily. you could design a robot intended to survive the fall, just as a precaution. my concern is that if one robot carries other robots, and they ALL fall, would that damage the pyramid? that would be at least 500lbs hitting the pyramid and the ground. the damage would probably be massive

[dodar]

im almost 100% positive that they intend for the robot to stay there to collect its bonus because with LOGO MOTION, team 329's minibot climbed the pole,hit the top, fell down and climbed back up several times yet did not recieve bonus points for the repeated climbs. im assuming it will be the same this year and will be corrected in an update

2011 has absolutely zero bearing on 2013.

[Basel A]

By arguing solely based on that rule's 2012 (or earlier) equivalent, using your interpretation,

Eric, using old interpretations is as much of a no-no as using the animation. Notice that the definition of "SCORED" for DISCS relies on a check at the end of the match. A DISC must enter and stay. I suppose that doesn't specify the same for robots (climb and stay).

In the favour of your argument is the fact that a climb can be considered unacceptable during the match, so a robot that has climbed can be considered acceptable by lack of unacceptability.

[pfreivald]

If a CLIMB is considered unacceptable (e.g. a ROBOT has touched non-adjacent Levels or more than two (2) Levels at a time), a Referee will indicate a rejected CLIMB by turning the offending ROBOT’S PLAYER STATION LED strings yellow. The ROBOT will be ineligible for CLIMB points unless and until it begins a new CLIMB from the floor, Level 0.

Actually the rules contradict what he says. The end of that little paragraph says you can drop back down and climb up again to get the amount of points that you want.

I know the rule, actually. What I wanted--and what everyone should provide when they answer questions--is a citation. (In this case, there is no citation to back up the assertion in question... Which is my point. People shouldn't answer rules questions unless they know the rules.)

There is a chance that there is an English barrier here--if "last 5sec" doesn't mean "last for five seconds", for example.

[Grim Tuesday]

im almost 100% positive that they intend for the robot to stay there to collect its bonus because with LOGO MOTION, team 329's minibot climbed the pole,hit the top, fell down and climbed back up several times yet did not recieve bonus points for the repeated climbs. im assuming it will be the same this year and will be corrected in an update

Not only are the 2011 rules not valid this year, that is not the question we are asking. The question, to use the analogue of 2011 would be "does the minibot need the remain on the top of the tower at the end of the match or is it considered scored when it touches the sensor?"

[dodar]

I know the rule, actually. What I wanted--and what everyone should provide when they answer questions--is a citation. (In this case, there is no citation to back up the assertion in question... Which is my point. People shouldn't answer rules questions unless they know the rules.)

There is a chance that there is an English barrier here--if "last 5sec" doesn't mean "last for five seconds", for example.

I wasnt faulting what you said, I was faulting at the guy you quoted said.

[familyguyfreak]

Here's a question,

Let's say you climb and make it all the way to Level 3 and decide to come back down. How are the referees going to judge if you cleared the second level COMPLETELY while watching the rest of the match for other fouls committed during game play?

I'm all for climbing during the match. It adds to the game and creates a new strategy, but I think climbing during game play is asking the refs to do a lot on top of what they already have to do.

Just my $.02

[Alpha Beta]

but I think climbing during game play is asking the refs to do a lot on top of what they already have to do.

They've already got to watch to see if the climb is legal and inform the team if it wasn't through the yellow lights at the driver station. Seems like they'll be scrutinizing the climb enough to judge the score too during game play.

[pfreivald]

I wasnt faulting what you said, I was faulting at the guy you quoted said.

Sure thing. The electronic poker face makes intent difficult to assess, so I was trying to clarify -- I had a hard time telling whether or not you had a hard time telling what I'd said! :D

[jason701802]

What rule says this?

Points are awarded to ALLIANCES per the details below. Final scores will be assessed five (5) seconds after the ARENA timer displays zero (0) or when all elements come to rest, whichever event happens first.I think that makes it pretty clear that the official score is based on the position of the robot(s) (and Frisbees) 5 seconds after the end of the match