Ultimate Ascent Strategies

[Jay O'Donnell]

Hey everyone,
Our team is currently brainstorming stategies for all three parts of the game, and we wanted to hear everyone elses input! This is not for robot designs, just for ways to score or otherwise play the game. Any idea could end up helping our team or any other one.
Thanks in advance, Jay

[Mephisto]

Right now we are stuck between a defensive climbing robot and an offensive scoring robot. Personally I want to have a good idea of how many people are going to be building each bot so that ours isn't one of a million defensive bots or vice-versa.

[karomata]

Our team has developed a few strategies:

Butterfly Bot: have extremedies that drop down and make our robot wider, while staying within the 54 inch diameter, this gives us good defense abilities. With that we are able to sit infront of the feederstation and completely cut if off from being used.

God bot: Do everything perfectly and make waffles/pancakes on the side (our team has gotten way to far into trying to do that)

Defense bot: This is my personal strategy and I find it very realistic and feasible. Have a short robot that can reliably hang a 30 and drive under the pyramid, feed alliance partners, possibly pick up off the floor, reliably score in the low goal, and play awesome defense. Would anybody think that a robot like that would be picked at competitions? I'm trying to convince my teammates that it could be successful.

There are some others but my fingers as well as my mind are tired, I'll post later when I'm a bit more rested and have more to report on of value.

[EricDrost]

Have two robots "pretend" to climb on either side of your pyramid. The other alliance can't get by for fear of penalties. /troll

[Mephisto]

Our team has developed a few strategies:

Butterfly Bot: have extremedies that drop down and make our robot wider, while staying within the 54 inch diameter, this gives us good defense abilities. With that we are able to sit infront of the feederstation and completely cut if off from being used.

God bot: Do everything perfectly and make waffles/pancakes on the side (our team has gotten way to far into trying to do that)

Defense bot: This is my personal strategy and I find it very realistic and feasible. Have a short robot that can reliably hang a 30 and drive under the pyramid, feed alliance partners, possibly pick up off the floor, reliably score in the low goal, and play awesome defense. Would anybody think that a robot like that would be picked at competitions? I'm trying to convince my teammates that it could be successful.

There are some others but my fingers as well as my mind are tired, I'll post later when I'm a bit more rested and have more to report on of value.
I liked defense before, but I think getting your bot to the 30 is a lot harder than everyone is making it out to be. I think that a sturdy scoring bot would be reliable and score high enough to make it worth doing.

Plus it would look cooler at demos.

[Sean Raia]

Defense bot: This is my personal strategy and I find it very realistic and feasible. Have a short robot that can reliably hang a 30 and drive under the pyramid, feed alliance partners, possibly pick up off the floor, reliably score in the low goal, and play awesome defense. Would anybody think that a robot like that would be picked at competitions? I'm trying to convince my teammates that it could be successful.


This.

Also, your teams lifting mechanism in 2010 was very interesting... it was brought up a couple of times at our meeting today.

[Jay O'Donnell]

This.

Also, your teams lifting mechanism in 2010 was very interesting... it was brought up a couple of times at our meeting today.

Is there a video anyone has of this? My team has often been talking about lifting mechanisms from 2004 and 2010.

[Sean Raia]

Is there a video anyone has of this? My team has often been talking about lifting mechanisms from 2004 and 2010.

http://www.thebluealliance.com/match/2010ma_qf3m2
Watch towards the end (2:07 on). I believe many other teams used a similar method that year, but theirs was the first I witnessed live.

Now, imagine one of those lifters on both sides of your robot.

[Joon Park]

A few of my friends predicted that the majority of the teams would have similar realizations about climbing to the 30 and playing defense. Enough to worry them that too many teams would be doing this exact strategy.

I can't decide what will happen: it seems that many teams would have learned the importance of the "endgame" points due to last year's game, but I still feel that rookies and powerhouse teams will be drawn to the traditional throwing and scoring method simply because it is the "main" way to score. The difference between rookies and powerhouse teams being that powerhouse teams will of course be able to climb as well, and would probably be more accurate at throwing than rookie teams.

[Mephisto]

I just still don't think that it will be reliable as scoring, I can see some scary points coming from a very refined shooter.

[Mike Schreiber]

Have two robots "pretend" to climb on either side of your pyramid. The other alliance can't get by for fear of penalties. /troll

G25 ROBOTS on the same ALLIANCE may not blockade the FIELD in an attempt to stop the flow of the MATCH. This rule has no effect on individual ROBOT-ROBOT interaction.

[Walter Deitzler]

Well fans didn't work for defense last year, but we all know Frisbees can have their direction changed more easily by wind or air. Sit under scoring bins with fan anyone?

[Wildcats1378]

So far, our favorite strategy is getting 4 preloads, climbing to the third tier, then dumping all 4 disks in. Bam, 50 points.

[Gregor]

So far, our favorite strategy is getting 4 preloads, climbing to the third tier, then dumping all 4 disks in. Bam, 50 points.

Remember they need to be the red/blue disks (depending on what allaince you are on).

[ProgrammerTori]

So far, our favorite strategy is getting 4 preloads, climbing to the third tier, then dumping all 4 disks in. Bam, 50 points.

Add in some low goal capabilities and have a reliable climb and I could see it working. I'm wary of shooters because they're easy prey for defense. But an accurate shooter with reliable autonomous will crush any climb bot for points.

[Jay O'Donnell]

Well fans didn't work for defense last year, but we all know Frisbees can have their direction changed more easily by wind or air. Sit under scoring bins with fan anyone?

I can't find a rule against it... I think it would depend on the speed of the frisbee one is trying to manipulate with the fan, but in theory it could work. Way to think outside the box!

[Redo91]

So far, our favorite strategy is getting 4 preloads, climbing to the third tier, then dumping all 4 disks in. Bam, 50 points.

This is one of the strategies the team is considering. I believe that the teams that are capable of consistently scoring all 4 colored frisbees will make up many of the top teams. I do not believe you can get away with just climbing up the pyramid though.

A few of my friends predicted that the majority of the teams would have similar realizations about climbing to the 30 and playing defense. Enough to worry them that too many teams would be doing this exact strategy.

I think many teams will consider this strategy, due to the large amount of points available there. I think almost as many teams will rule this strategy out due to the fact that their robot would be over 60" above the ground, and could not afford it falling.

[Gregor]

Add in some low goal capabilities and have a reliable climb and I could see it working. I'm wary of shooters because they're easy prey for defense. But an accurate shooter with reliable autonomous will crush any climb bot for points.

Teams touching their pyramid are protected, similar to the key in RR.

[DonRotolo]

God bot: Do everything perfectly and make waffles/pancakes on the side (our team has gotten way to far into trying to do that)The viability of this strategy very much depends upon being able to warm up the syrup, and the use of real maple syrup. If it can't do both, then I would vote against it.
I just still don't think that it will be reliable as scoring, I can see some scary points coming from a very refined shooter.Remember you have up to 118 total white disks available, half for your alliance. It's not infinite as scored disks are not returned to play.
I think almost as many teams will rule this strategy out due to the fact that their robot would be over 60" above the ground, and could not afford it falling....or they will design it so that it cannot fall, maybe.

[ehfeinberg]

Well fans didn't work for defense last year, but we all know Frisbees can have their direction changed more easily by wind or air. Sit under scoring bins with fan anyone?

Although this would work for defending against some teams, with a disc, the more spin you put on it, the better it fairs in wind. When it is windy outside, Ultimate Players put so much spin on the disc that it completely cancels out the affect of the wind. However, floaters and teams who do not have a high speed shot would be especially susceptible to a fan.

If I was to use a fan, I would not just sit under the goals. If you are able to move the disc up an inch where the goal is, it isn't going to do too much. While if you get right up in your opponents face, a change of an inch there will be much more as the disc approaches the target.

[woodenLogicGate]

The commuter: A robot with a shifting drive train (acceleration and high top speed) that gets discs from feeders and shoots reliably to 2/3 pt goals. No need to collect from floor. (hangs for 10)

The Glutton: Parks at the big feeding station and continuously is fed discs that it launches at the 2 pt goal across the filed. (hangs for 10)

All around: offensive, collects from the floor and scores 3 pts reliably.

Mountain Climber: get 4 colored discs, climb to stage 3 (30 pts), dump discs for 20 pts

[Redo91]

The Glutton: Parks at the big feeding station and continuously is fed discs that it launches at the 2 pt goal across the filed. (hangs for 10)

The issue with The Glutton is his short stature lets the tall guys block his shots.

[Wildcats1378]

Add in some low goal capabilities and have a reliable climb and I could see it working. I'm wary of shooters because they're easy prey for defense. But an accurate shooter with reliable autonomous will crush any climb bot for points.

Yeah. For this strategy, we were thinking of having a shooter. But we were going to design the robot around being able to reliably climb to the top and score 4 discs. The shooter seems like it is going to be the easier and smaller of the 2 tasks. Also, I'm not thinking it's going to be terribly important to pick up frisbee's with this strategy, so the turret doesn't have to be too complicated.

[j_chen_1676]

Thinking that defense is going to be a huge strategy thought of by most teams, and implemented frequently as well. But the best defenders will be strong and maneuverable. Seems like out-maneuvering will be vital. Climbing and third-tiering is a huge bonus.

There may be a lot of defenders, but they're going to have a huge impact this game. Lack of penalty zones means free and open fields to either fwoosh down the fielder get into competitive pushing matches.

Plus, frisbee are really fragile especially at time of launch. Contact with robot while shooting might result it extreme in accuracy. So...GG. Unless fenders of course.

[=Martin=Taylor=]

The Glutton: Parks at the big feeding station and continuously is fed discs that it launches at the 2 pt goal across the filed. (hangs for 10)

How feasible do you think this is? A shooter like this might get enough distance and accuracy to make the 2 pt goal from the feeder zone. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KVK8svZzbI&list=PLvg8Wvp3vYRr9oiJslyoEQY0ptJy1ibSd)

The feeder zone is also protected, so with a little azimuth, defense would be impossible.

[nuggetsyl]

I like waffles and pancakes.

[Djur]

How feasible do you think this is? A shooter like this might get enough distance and accuracy to make the 2 pt goal from the feeder zone. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KVK8svZzbI&list=PLvg8Wvp3vYRr9oiJslyoEQY0ptJy1ibSd)

The feeder zone is also protected, so with a little azimuth, defense would be impossible.

I read somewhere that shooter was accurate to within ~3" at a range of 30'. Maybe with some tweaking.

[knuckleduster]

@ the shop today we had a sorta mock up of that (with a flat board and a drill running a wheel). It did O.K. but I wanted to do the 180* turn thing, now that I see it in action I will push much harder for it because it looks like it works awesome.

[dellagd]

I think alot of teams are going to underestimate how hard it really is to sequentially climb the pyramid.

A straight shot to the top, sure, but climbing is a heck of a lot harder.

[nixiebunny]

The way to make the most points is with an 84" tall shooter placed in front of the feeder, with outriggers to keep defenders away. The trick is ensuring that the discs come out high enough up that a defender can't block them.

It can operate in a lower configuration if no tall defenders appear.

[rocknthehawk]

I like waffles and pancakes.

Now if we can get the same bot to make french toast, we could be on to something.

[z_beeblebrox]

The way to make the most points is with an 84" tall shooter placed in front of the feeder, with outriggers to keep defenders away. The trick is ensuring that the discs come out high enough up that a defender can't block them.

It can operate in a lower configuration if no tall defenders appear.

I think that this is illegal. You are only allowed to extend above 60" on the side by your goals, not by the feeder. Outriggers could also be difficult if they are outside the 54" cylinder.

[Joon Park]

I think many of us initially wanted to go with the climb + colored discs design because they seemed a sure way to get a solid 30 to 50 points, but we are now quickly realizing two things:

Climbing is harder than we originally thought, due to specific climbing rules and how much the rungs stick out of the vertical struts

Shooting is going to be more accurate than we thought (see various videos of prototypes in this thread and all over CD)

[Wildcats1378]

Yeah, you can only be that tall when you are touching the pyramid or the auto zone. Your auto zone.

[Johnbot]

I think alot of teams are going to underestimate how hard it really is to sequentially climb the pyramid.

A straight shot to the top, sure, but climbing is a heck of a lot harder.

I can't believe other teams are thinking about using a fan too!

[Joon Park]

I can't believe other teams are thinking about using a fan too!

I have a team member who is jokingly adamant about using this strategy. I guess it's a common theme.

[Johnbot]

I have a team member who is jokingly adamant about using this strategy. I guess it's a common theme.

I said it as a joke, and everyone laughed. We then slowly began to think more into it, and now we are seriously considering it. I doubt we will, we usually focus on offense. (I wanted a leaf blower in Logomotion to blast the tubes to our side, as a joke, I know it wouldn't have worked, but this year... it just might!)

[Koko Ed]

I like waffles and pancakes.

I'm more of an eggs and bacon kind of guy.

[ProgrammerTori]

I think many of us initially wanted to go with the climb + colored discs design because they seemed a sure way to get a solid 30 to 50 points, but we are now quickly realizing two things:

Climbing is harder than we originally thought, due to specific climbing rules and how much the rungs stick out of the vertical struts

Shooting is going to be more accurate than we thought (see various videos of prototypes in this thread and all over CD)

I agree that shooting is going to be the easier and probably most reliable option. However I think a good alliance in the end will consist of a shooter, climber, and someone who can score missed disk and/or play a good defense. There will definitely be merit in many different types of robots this year.

[Anupam Goli]

Since the only safe zones for scoring this year are 1) touching the pyramid or 2) in the feeder zone, I'm thinking that a robot that is meant to by like a nagging wife may find success, particularly in qualifications matches, where everyone just looks to score the most points. This type of annoying defensive bot, built well enough, could throw off anyone trying to score from anywhere not in the previously mentioned safe zones. Consider the box on wheels to be useful if those that can't get their shooters to work see the opportunity.

[ProgrammerTori]

Since the only safe zones for scoring this year are 1) touching the pyramid or 2) in the feeder zone, I'm thinking that a robot that is meant to by like a nagging wife may find success, particularly in qualifications matches, where everyone just looks to score the most points. This type of annoying defensive bot, built well enough, could throw off anyone trying to score from anywhere not in the previously mentioned safe zones. Consider the box on wheels to be useful if those that can't get their shooters to work see the opportunity.

I just realized a slight flaw with a defensive box bot strategy. You block your own driver's sight by playing defense...
On another note, however, a solid box bot could easily plant itself in front of the low goal and just sit there the whole match to prevent low goal scoring.

[MetalJacket]

The problem with that is that the low goal is just not worth enough for many teams to really care. You might prevent a rookie team from scoring but most veterans aren't going to depend significantly on low-goal scoring.

[Anupam Goli]

I just realized a slight flaw with a defensive box bot strategy. You block your own driver's sight by playing defense...
On another note, however, a solid box bot could easily plant itself in front of the low goal and just sit there the whole match to prevent low goal scoring.

If Logomotion has taught me anything, it's that driver obstructions aren't what they're hyped up to be.

[pmangels17]

As far as climbing, the rules say that you must contact the zones consecutively, and you can only contact two zones at a time. However, they clearly mark the floor as zone zero. Does that mean we cannot contact above the first horizontal before we are off the floor?

[Anupam Goli]

As far as climbing, the rules say that you must contact the zones consecutively, and you can only contact two zones at a time. However, they clearly mark the floor as zone zero. Does that mean we cannot contact above the first horizontal before we are off the floor?

Sounds like a correct interpretation. This ruled out my idea of just having a large wood board at the level of the first rung and start my "CLIMB" from there.

[ProgrammerTori]

As far as climbing, the rules say that you must contact the zones consecutively, and you can only contact two zones at a time. However, they clearly mark the floor as zone zero. Does that mean we cannot contact above the first horizontal before we are off the floor?

I think so, at least from what I've read it seems that way. There's no way to skip the first rung... If you are going to aim for the top, you'll need to be able to lift a robot at least 3 times or resort to climbing the edge of the pyramid.

[Tetraman]

Teams are going to have a hard time climbing the Pyramid in sequential order.

*buzzer* Wrong. Never underestimate the power of teams. Unlike some feats like 2010's suspending off of a hanging robot or 2005 stacking of vision tetras, the Point total of climbing a pyramid is well within the necessity of going for it. While I'm guessing most teams will stop once they get to the second level, that extra 10 points comes with a direct route to the Pyramid Goal and well worth spending a season for.

Shooters are going to be inaccurate at best.

*buzzer* Wrong! Due to the fact there are no air currents in most all venues, a shooter that works is going to work. Also, I highly doubt that when play-testing this game, the GDC would be alright in having sub-par shooting all game long. They must have found that shooting into a middle or high goal is possible, easy, and effective. A winning alliance MUST have at least one effective shooter.

Shooters are going to make bank.

*buzzer* Wrong! Unlike last year, robots HAVE to pick up discs from their feeder station, which is on the opposite side of the field. Last year the balls could bounce their way across, but these discs will just fall (and fall directly into your opponent's side). Therefore, your robot will have to make the trip back and fourth. Consider the number of tubes scored by one team in Logomotion was about 5-6, and most of those tubes ended up mid-field and only if they had a clean hang. Teams that needed to go long distance for their tube only made about 4 trips at best. Taking 4 trips to the feeder station is probably the maximum as well, since it will take time to load and shoot (and don't forget the defense played in this game). A good shooter will make about 12-14 discs in a middle or high goal each game, which is between 24 and 36 points. Still not enough to beat a 50 point climb.

Picking up from the floor will be a winning strategy.

*buzzer* Wrong! Let's go over a few things. Other than the 10 that start on the floor, every other disc that will end up on the floor will be a missed shot. Unless you miss all four of your shots, picking up from the floor one or two pieces is not worth the time it takes as just going over to the opposite side of the field and picking up four fresh discs. At best, you make every shot - therefore unless your team mates are bad shots you'll have plenty to pick from, but even still the tempo lost in shooting 2 you picked up from your side of the field is less than shooting 4 you got from the feeder station. Don't get me wrong though: while I don't think it is a winning strategy, teams that can be 'street sweepers' and make better use of the discs on the ground can be winners.

This game is like Aim High or Rebound Rumble.

*buzzer* Wrong! This game is 2004 (FIRST frenzy) and 2007 (Rack n' Roll). In FIRST frenzy, many of the teams that were able to hang on the high bar could win the match just because they simply could hang on the high bar and their opponents couldn't. 50 Point climbs are going to be the same way. This isn't like balancing the bridge with 3 robots - this can take place every match that robot is in - therefore your opponents are playing to at least have to score more than 50 points or they lost the match. In Rack n.' Roll, defense and disruption was by far the most important element to winning a match. It is quite clear that of all the games to play defense, this is the most critical. However, playing defense is riskier than Rebound Rumble, as hitting a robot that is touching their Pyramid is NOT the same as hitting a robot that is touching their Key.

This game is going to be fun to watch.

*buzzer* Wrong! This game is going to be fun for veterans of FIRST to watch. It has been since 2007 that a defensive game was designed. Yea, 2010 had defense, but it was never important for every single match. This year the offense needs to be pin-point (and I am quite sure it will be), because playing defense is at the top of everyone's list. It will be a struggle for the first 1:15 of play, then 45 seconds of end-game awesome we haven't seen since Double Trouble.

The same teams that win each year are going to win this year.

*ding* Correct! as well as *buzzer* WRONG! This year nothing is for certain until week 6 is in the books. I feel that while the best teams show off they are the best teams, their partners are going to be quite different than the usual suspects. 1st seeds will fall to 2nd seeds easily, but no one else will really defeat the alliances better than them. Scouting systems are going to be tested to the ultimate extreme, and understanding the flow of the game will be the key to positioning one's robot for victory.

[Gir_450]

The problem with that is that the low goal is just not worth enough for many teams to really care. You might prevent a rookie team from scoring but most veterans aren't going to depend significantly on low-goal scoring.

That's actually what we're thinking, if you run back with 4 frisbees, then dump them all at once, then run back and keep repeating the process. Then if other teams on the alliance are scoring better and are getting blocked, swap to defense and plow into the blocking robots. The thing with frisbees is if you mess up your aim but just a couple degrees, the whole thing will be off and you will consistently miss because a defense bot keeps nudging you.

[PayneTrain]

A few things.

Some of you seem to like planning around failure. Don't do that. You doom yourself to failure

Get a solid feel for the game. Run simulations. There are always things you think you know about the game until you see it played out. Try to create an environment similar to the game either in a computer or real, tactile setting. Your understanding of field size, travel time, defensive abilities vs offense capabilities, volume of game pieces in play... they are not things found in a rule book, but are just as important to consider.

Play devil's advocate. Challenge the status quo with convincing evidence. This is not the time to draw lines in the sand and box yourself in.

[Ian Curtis]

*buzzer* Wrong. Never underestimate the power of teams. Unlike some feats like 2010's suspending off of a hanging robot or 2005 stacking of vision tetras, the Point total of climbing a pyramid is well within the necessity of going for it. While I'm guessing most teams will stop once they get to the second level, that extra 10 points comes with a direct route to the Pyramid Goal and well worth spending a season for.

Suspending was definitely worth it to the average team, IMO the GDC figured it was obvious and teams missed it. If you could suspend another team with you you're at 1.5 times the median alliance score all season long without scoring a single soccer ball.


*buzzer* Wrong! Due to the fact there are no air currents in most all venues, a shooter that works is going to work. Also, I highly doubt that when play-testing this game, the GDC would be alright in having sub-par shooting all game long. They must have found that shooting into a middle or high goal is possible, easy, and effective. A winning alliance MUST have at least one effective shooter.

Go back and watch matches from 2006, 2009, and 2012. Teams have not traditionally built good shooters. The average alliance scored only 4 points in teleop last year in qualifying. If shooters were easy, that number should be way higher!

A good shooter will make about 12-14 discs in a middle or high goal each game, which is between 24 and 36 points.

Based on most reasonable definitions of "good" I would absolutely take this bet. (Doesn't undermine that hanging will be important, or that picking up is going to be hard)

And FWIW, I'm not sure "*buzzer* Wrong!" is the best way to get a great discussion going. :]

[Nemo]

Autonomous scoring is hugely important. Not only are the points an important boost, but autonomous scoring is again the first tiebreaker for seeding.

Also, I think the extra autonomous points available by picking up extra game pieces and scoring them is easier this year than it was in 2011 or 2012. Last year it was hard because the balls varied, and since you didn't know where they were going to start on the bridge, you didn't know just where they'd roll to as you tipped the bridge. This year the game pieces shouldn't vary as much and they start in known locations. Plus you don't have to race your opponent to get them. I think a bunch of teams who already have floor pickup and basic autonomous scoring are going to upgrade their auto routines as the season progresses. It will be pretty tough to seed higher than a team that can consistently score 3+ discs in the autonomous period, assuming they have a good tele-op plan as well.

[AllieS4246]

I agree. Autonomous scoring will be critical. Teams that can score autonomously will be the top seeds, if they have good enough resources along with ample drivers they will have no problem scoring. A climb and dump robot may be able to get 50 points, but a solid shooter with a 10 or 20 point climbing ability will still beat it out.

[MysterE]

Ok -

With all of this discussion I have another question to ask: What do you think will be the Elite hidden design? Last year we had the stinger. The year before that we had the slalom mini-bot deploy systems. What about this year?

[Anupam Goli]

Ok -

With all of this discussion I have another question to ask: What do you think will be the Elite hidden design? Last year we had the stinger. The year before that we had the slalom mini-bot deploy systems. What about this year?

Some crazy device to climb the tower in less than 3 seconds

[ctccromer]

My team set the priority very clearly as
Reliable Post-game (20 or 30) > Reliable Pre-game (hit the 6's every time using reflective tape) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> picking up frisbees to be able to play the main game.

As in.. Let's get those first two and determine things from there. If we think it's a good option, we'll play the game. If we don't want to risk adding more, we'll play defense in the main game

[Peragore]

How about an upgraded hanger (the one I am pushing for currently): Hang for thirty, dump twenty, and deploy a net at the back of the holding area for disks to take the last two at a toss. 60 point climb, and then just have low/(maybe middle, depending on whether middle is above 60") capability. Think this would work pretty well.

Another idea was the "Ultimate Assist Bot", as it were. Camp under the feeder station, with a holding area in its back, and just shoot all the disks down to the friendly side of the field so others can go for threes.

Also, going back to the pickup idea, anyone ever used a pooper scooper or something to the effect? I was doing some "testing" with my hands, and I found that two relatively flat flaps coming together, much like a backhoe or something like that, make it very, very easy to pick up disks. Just have that skimming the floor, and lifting the disks up to the holding bay.

[Gregor]

*ding* Correct! as well as *buzzer* WRONG! This year nothing is for certain until week 6 is in the books.

*buzzer* WRONG! There is a week 7.

[Sean Raia]

Another idea was the "Ultimate Assist Bot", as it were. Camp under the feeder station, with a holding area in its back, and just shoot all the disks down to the friendly side of the field so others can go for threes.


You may see this type of bot play into some alliances strategies, but there's no need to explicitly design for it.

I don't foresee a ton of teams being able to ground-load, unlike in rebound rumble.
The teams that can load from the ground and feeder station quickly will be the top tier teams (not because its essential, but because its a sure advantage)

Someone asked what the "stinger" of the year would be... first, i'd say that it's too early to guess as we've only been looking over the game for 24 hours. If I had to guess though, i think the "stinger" will be some ridiculous climbing device

[nathan_hui]

Well, for shooting at the high goals, you could be up to 10 degrees off at the pyramid and no one would be any wiser.

[AllieS4246]

In general, I think people are over expectant of the scoring. A basketball was much easier to shoot last year than a frisbee will be. This means more will be on the ground that most are speculating. Especially in seeding, not many team will be able to hit points consistently. This makes it very important to be able to ground pick up. The discs fed from the window will be important, but are limited. The bots who can manage both will be the only ones with a good chance at being on the regional winning alliance.

[Sinani201]

In general, I think people are over expectant of the scoring. A basketball was much easier to shoot last year than a frisbee will be.
I don't think so. Frisbees are going to have a lot less variation between shots so they'll probably end up being more accurate than the basketball shooters in RR.

[ttldomination]

In general, I think people are over expectant of the scoring. A basketball was much easier to shoot last year than a frisbee will be. This means more will be on the ground that most are speculating. Especially in seeding, not many team will be able to hit points consistently. This makes it very important to be able to ground pick up. The discs fed from the window will be important, but are limited. The bots who can manage both will be the only ones with a good chance at being on the regional winning alliance.

Considering the variable density of the basketballs last year and the number of videos I've seen so far, I'm going to say it'll be very easy for a team to build a high accuracy shooter.

I'm not arguing your main point, but I believe the foundation for your argument is incorrect. Maybe.

- Sunny G.

[bspymaster]

I think the pyramid climbing at the end will be the big game changer. The team that can climb to the top will be the team that will consistently get picked. In other words, I believe that those teams will be the teams synonymous with the teams two years ago with the fast minibots. I also expect a few of those teams to constantly score over 50 points (climb to the top for 30 and carry at least 4 colored discs to dump them in the top bin while they are hanging there.

[CalTran]

I don't think so. Frisbees are going to have a lot less variation between shots so they'll probably end up being more accurate than the basketball shooters in RR.

What many people are forgetting between RR and UA is the fact that in RR, you had to have a decent parabolic arc on your shooter in order to sink a shot. The goals this year are straight vertical holes, and in comparison to the frisbees, quite decent sized.

As far as a frisbee being difficult to shoot, I believe many people are basing this idea off of a human throwing a frisbee. While it is true that a human throwing a frisbee has so many variables (Finger force up/down, wrist action, arm motion, etc.), designing a shooter that only takes into account the spin of the wheel and the time the disc is in contact shouldn't be too difficult.

[4057programmer]

I think there is something everyone is missing in these talks, and that is what happens after the Frisbees are played and shot several dozen times a day? just like with the balls from RR, wear and tear will kick in. A warped Frisbee wont fly as straight as everyone thinks. So I believe being able to pick them up from the ground will be a worthwhile investment of time.

[rich2202]

Think about the time to pick up a DISC and to orient it (if it is upside down).

Versus

Traveling back to your Feeder, and getting 4 discs. Each alliance gets 45 white DISCs, so that is 15 per team. If you can shoot all 15 discs in 90 seconds (allowing 30 seconds for ascent), you are probably doing good.

Having one buldozer that can scoop and dump into the low goal, might be worthwhile. That would let the other two bots in the alliance shoot 22 discs each.

[jbsmithtx]

So far, our favorite strategy is getting 4 preloads, climbing to the third tier, then dumping all 4 disks in. Bam, 50 points.

Can you start preloaded with blue discs? For some reason I thought only white, and that the blue ones were at the feeder stations to begin...

[Peragore]

In general, I think people are over expectant of the scoring. A basketball was much easier to shoot last year than a frisbee will be. This means more will be on the ground that most are speculating. Especially in seeding, not many team will be able to hit points consistently. This makes it very important to be able to ground pick up. The discs fed from the window will be important, but are limited. The bots who can manage both will be the only ones with a good chance at being on the regional winning alliance.

I disagree, I think the frisbee will be much easier to shoot. We already have fairly accurate design that shoots pretty far with tremendous accuracy when only powered by a drill. That coupled with the fact that you will probably only need a fixed disk speed, as I doubt the disks will bounce out of the chain-backed areas. This seems to eliminate a lot of need for advanced math and lead to higher scoring IMO

[Orion.DeYoe]

I think alot of teams are going to underestimate how hard it really is to sequentially climb the pyramid.

A straight shot to the top, sure, but climbing is a heck of a lot harder.

Yes I think this is going to be the largest mistake made by a lot of teams. There is really no good way to climb the pyramid. I think the 30 points are worth it if you can pull it off. I think any way you do it it's going to require some VERY sturdy and powerful mechanisms.

My team made this mistake in 2011. We underestimated how hard it was to make a minibot and delivery system. We're not planning to make the same mistake again. We're making it a priority to design a climbing mechanism that works.

[AllieS4246]

I think another point to be noted is that frisbees weigh a lot less. It will be a lot easier to change their course. And even though there is no arc, aiming will be a whole different deal. Aiming with a shooter no matter how accurate is hard when the shot is being taken from multiple locations. You now also have to factor in rotation, angle, and other factors. And the shape of a frisbee has a lip, a rounded top, and a hollow bottom. This adds more variables to the game. I do not think this task will be terrible to accomplish, but I do think the difficulty is being undercut. And disks will be worn in a tournament same as the balls. RR had its challenges, but I think many are still underestimating some of the challenges this game has.

[pmangels17]

As a team, right now we are working on a way to climb up the corner rail on the outside, and score four frisbees for another 20 points. This is going to require intense, robust, lightweight mechanisms, and it might have to be very complex. However, we are also working on a shooter that can at least score 1 point goals in the beginning minute of matches. If we pick up from the player station, we can score two batches in the low goal and then climb and score. Our drivetrain this year is also going to be very robust, and be able to play heavy defense, so as to have that option, in combination with high scoring shooter robots. This giver us an opportunity to, by ourselves, score upwards of 54 to 58 points in a match.

[AllieS4246]

As a team, right now we are working on a way to climb up the corner rail on the outside, and score four frisbees for another 20 points. This is going to require intense, robust, lightweight mechanisms, and it might have to be very complex. However, we are also working on a shooter that can at least score 1 point goals in the beginning minute of matches. If we pick up from the player station, we can score two batches in the low goal and then climb and score. Our drivetrain this year is also going to be very robust, and be able to play heavy defense, so as to have that option, in combination with high scoring shooter robots. This giver us an opportunity to, by ourselves, score upwards of 54 to 58 points in a match.

This seems to be a theme through many teams this year. This to me seems to be a versatile robot. Just playing defense with no ability to shoot or climb seems like shooting yourself in the foot. Defense is reasonable, but t can't be the only trick in the hat.

[plnyyanks]

Can you start preloaded with blue discs? For some reason I thought only white, and that the blue ones were at the feeder stations to begin...

TEAMS may preload White DISCS in or on the ROBOT before the MATCH.
You're right, only white discs can be pre-loaded.

[$wimmer3138]

I think there is something everyone is missing in these talks, and that is what happens after the Frisbees are played and shot several dozen times a day? just like with the balls from RR, wear and tear will kick in. A warped Frisbee wont fly as straight as everyone thinks. So I believe being able to pick them up from the ground will be a worthwhile investment of time.

Wouldn't a warped frisbee, be rather hard to pick up off the ground?

[Jay O'Donnell]

An idea I remember my team thought of was a robot that caught all the missed frisbees from the opposing alliance and just shot them across the field for our alliance partners, thus capitalizing on their mistakes.

[robowrestler]

ok guys i might be in the wrong thread but to develop a strategy i would try to use catalyst as a tool but i cant get past queing. does anyone know how?

[z_beeblebrox]

ok guys i might be in the wrong thread but to develop a strategy i would try to use catalyst as a tool but i cant get past queing. does anyone know how?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1208554&postcount=4

[Joon Park]

Wouldn't a warped frisbee, be rather hard to pick up off the ground?

When discs warp, they don't actually warp that much. If you play ultimate you know that you rarely notice the warp on a disc unless you 1. throw it, 2. lay it on a very flat surface.

But as hinted by the fact that you'll notice it when you throw it, it'll affect the accuracy of the shot. Hence a warped disc won't be too difficult to pick up (depending on your mechanism) but it will make a difference when you throw it large distances.

[4057programmer]

When discs warp, they don't actually warp that much. If you play ultimate you know that you rarely notice the warp on a disc unless you 1. throw it, 2. lay it on a very flat surface.

But as hinted by the fact that you'll notice it when you throw it, it'll affect the accuracy of the shot. Hence a warped disc won't be too difficult to pick up (depending on your mechanism) but it will make a difference when you throw it large distances.

My point exactly! and someone mentioned cleaning up the other alliance's missed shots as well. Yet another reason to not leave a device to pick up Frisbees on the sidelines.:]

[Gir_450]

Alot of teams are also missing a big piece of this puzzle from what I'm seeing, and my question is "How are you going to load the frisbees into your shooters?" I don't see an easy way of loading them if you plan to just have the human player give you your four but maybe a slightly easier way if you plan to pick them up; but still, I've seen no proposed methods of loading the frisbees into the shooters DURING the match.

[joelg236]

After analysing 166 different shooting + climbing strategies, here are the stats... They take time and accuracy into account, but nothing about defense, coloured discs or any other strategies.
http://i.imgur.com/05Egq.png

[ChurgoII]

Heres something my team has been having problems coming up with: whats the best type of wheel to use? For a shooting/climbing bot, would it be better to have fast wheels to fly around and collect or slower more manuverable ones to position for the shots?

[beandip3160]

Picking discs off of the floor definitely seems worth the time. Especially if you design something that flips the discs if they are upside down. Even still, getting the colored discs and climbing the pyramid and dumping them somehow is very tempting for 50 points.

[Connerd]

Is it possible to shoot the Frisbees upside down? That would fix the problem of either picking up only right side up ones, or having a flipping mechanism.

[beandip3160]

Is it possible to shoot the Frisbees upside down? That would fix the problem of either picking up only right side up ones, or having a flipping mechanism.

There may be some way but I don't think you'll get the same consistency as if the discs were shot right side up. Frisbee s were built to fly that way.

[Blondie3160]

Our team had about the same idea too. And if you get some white disks before the climb your alliance has a good chance

[Adamc4]

Hey guys i thought of this really cool loophole in the game. We can use martians to score for us. That way we can have a robot dedicated to climbing. I think this is a really solid strategy for gameplay, and I advise you all to follow. it works because they arent human so they can be on the field. Boo-yah

[Connerd]

Our team had about the same idea too. And if you get some white disks before the climb your alliance has a good chance

Do you mean dumping in the white discs? Because the rules state that only red/blue discs (depending on your alliance) count for points. While dumping in white discs into your own pyramid goal doesn't do anything bad, you can't put colored discs in, losing potential points. Also, you're not allowed to put discs, regardless of color, into an opponents' pyramid goal.

[Keanu Adams]

Personally, i believe in a Small, speedy bot, that not only can score, but also would be able to hang for a few extra points. I will continue looking for effective climbing mechanisms and i'll post again with my findings.

[themitchclarke]

Hey guys i thought of this really cool loophole in the game. We can use martians to score for us. That way we can have a robot dedicated to climbing. I think this is a really solid strategy for gameplay, and I advise you all to follow. it works because they arent human so they can be on the field. Boo-yah

Perf!

[PVCpirate]

Is it possible to shoot the Frisbees upside down? That would fix the problem of either picking up only right side up ones, or having a flipping mechanism.

Here is the Robot in 3 Days test of upside down frisbees, should answer your question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyE4Ir6dkY8

[Citrus Dad]

Here's an assessment of this year's game's scoring:

Parameters:
- There are 72 potential points in autonomous.
- With 45 discs, the maximum points from fed discs is 135 points.
- Assuming that the colored discs are used at the end of the game, and most likely dumped directly in the goal after climbing the pyramid, an alliance can score 120 points on the pyramid. A single team can score 50 points by climbing and placing 4 discs. This procedure might even be easily automated.

Observations about likely outcomes:
- A single robot can probably score about 36-45 points in autonomous in cooperation with another robot feeding it. But most robots will score only 12 at best.
- We can expect roughly similar (or worse) teleop accuracy as last year's game. The best teams were scoring no more than 60-70 points in teleop, and most were less than 40.
- Unknown points can be scored with discs "owned" by the opposing alliance, but most likely, these will not be additive to the maximum available points.
- The floor will be littered with discs late in the game. This may affect strategies and tactics for the endgame.
- The best alliances will score 120 points in their endgame.

Given the parameters and observations, I expect the following scoring breakdown in the Einstein round:

- Autonomous: 36-45 points:
- Teleop: 60-70 points
- Pyramid: 120 points
- Total: 216-235 points

Note that the pyramid strategy has a high probability of reaching a full score in every match (unlike balancing 3 robots) once the climbing and placing tasks are mastered. On the other hand, the teleop scores will be highly variable and therefore riskier.

[Citrus Dad]

I agree. Autonomous scoring will be critical. Teams that can score autonomously will be the top seeds, if they have good enough resources along with ample drivers they will have no problem scoring. A climb and dump robot may be able to get 50 points, but a solid shooter with a 10 or 20 point climbing ability will still beat it out.

However, an alliance is more likely to have 3 solid climbers than 3 good shooters. 3 climbers will score 120 points before any baskets. If a bot can climb to 20 points, they can get 30 points, so the real option is 10 points for climbing. So an all shooting alliance would have to score 90 points and hold the other alliance scoreless.

[Citrus Dad]

I don't think so. Frisbees are going to have a lot less variation between shots so they'll probably end up being more accurate than the basketball shooters in RR.

Frisbees are much more influenced by outside factors, including the air conditioning flows that will be present and different in every venue. Open doors in the auditoriums also will affect the flights. Look at how the paper airplanes flew last year in St. Louis.

[Dr Theta]

However, an alliance is more likely to have 3 solid climbers than 3 good shooters. 3 climbers will score 120 points before any baskets. If a bot can climb to 20 points, they can get 30 points, so the real option is 10 points for climbing. So an all shooting alliance would have to score 90 points and hold the other alliance scoreless.

I'm not Car Nack, but I think it is incredibly unlikely we'll see a 120 pt endgame this year.

[Adamc4]

Has anybody thought about trolling the feeder station that isn't in the safe zone? If you were against an alliance that was disorganized you could potentially pick up discs right next to your scoring zone, which would make things a lot easier and faster. And even if that wouldn't work, which it probably won't, you could still block off that feeder station entirely. That would be easy D while you are waiting for opportunities to pick up discs or pin, since the opposite alliance's feeder station will now be really congested.

[Siri]

Has anybody thought about trolling the feeder station that isn't in the safe zone? If you were against an alliance that was disorganized you could potentially pick up discs right next to your scoring zone, which would make things a lot easier and faster. And even if that wouldn't work, which it probably won't, you could still block off that feeder station entirely. That would be easy D while you are waiting for opportunities to pick up discs or pin, since the opposite alliance's feeder station will now be really congested.There's quite a bit that can be done to the exposed feeder station*, but unless you're against a really disorganized alliance, even blocking entirely it wouldn't be overly useful on its own. It's a useful valve to maneuver game flow, but you can get a lot more out of it than just +1/3 to the loading zone congestion (which, by the by, is far from guaranteed to be the result of blocking the exposed feeder station).

Of course, in Week 1 quals we'll probably have human players trying to enter discs without alliance robots even nearby :rolleyes: in which case of course you get to gobble up from both stations. Remember the benefits of discretion, though.

*There's also quite a bit to be done the loading zone...

[Jared Russell]

I'm not Car Nack, but I think it is incredibly unlikely we'll see a 120 pt endgame this year.

I think you will see it at IRI. But not at any other event. Even at MSC, MAR, and the World Championship, I don't think there will be enough 30 point hangers to go around to field an alliance of three of them.

[PayneTrain]

I'm not Car Nack, but I think it is incredibly unlikely we'll see a 120 pt endgame this year.

He said that's the point breakdown on Einstein, but unless he is also counting the pyramid frisbees, if it's a per alliance score, that's impossible. Even with it, the likelihood each alliance will have 3 robots that can 30pt climb and hit every colored frisbee in the pyramid sounds like something I would have to see in person to believe. You might eke out some 120pt endgames at IRI MAR/MSC/CMP elims will probably have 70-90 point endgames with Einstein maybe getting 80-100.

There have been prominent members of the community that think floor loading will make or break a robot. If you have a consistent 3pt shooter, a drivetrain that can win shoving matches and move you across the field, and a fast wall loading system, you could probably get 4-6 loads from the feeder every match, depending on the defense. That's 48-72 points. This isn't like Logomotion where you can easily ricochet a game piece halfway across the field, but then again the volume of game pieces is incredibly high and accuracy of shooting outside of the elite will be paltry at best. On the other hand, you have to consider how much weight you would be willing to dedicate to the robot depending on the climbing system you want to create, how your team deals with the decreased frame perimeter, and a host of other things.

When you start putting things together, remember these common traps:
You will probably overestimate the field size.
You will also likely overestimate the frame perimeter this year.
With the first flat, unobstructed, largely open field since 2009, you can underestimate the potential defense will have.
In theory everything is perfect, in practice it could all catch on fire and/or melt.

[jwfoss]

I would like to pose a question: Ultimate Strategy for What?

- Ultimate Strategy to Qualify #1
- Ultimate Strategy to Get Picked
- Ultimate Strategy to Win a Regional
- Ultimate Strategy to Win Championships
- Ultimate Strategy within your team's abilities

I would strongly argue that these goals are not all the same.

[BrendanB]

I would like to pose a question: Ultimate Strategy for What?

- Ultimate Strategy to Qualify #1
- Ultimate Strategy to Get Picked
- Ultimate Strategy to Win a Regional
- Ultimate Strategy to Win Championships
- Ultimate Strategy within your team's abilities

I would strongly argue that these goals are not all the same.
They aren't which is why teams really need to consider what their goals are this season, their resources, the events they attend, etc.

There is no ultimate strategy.

[pmangels17]

Frankly, the strategy should revolve around your teams resources. Many teams, ours included, have overstretched their means in a season, and need to be aware of the mechanical complexities of their robots and whether or not they can make such complex systems work. I like Robot in 3 Days, because they built something that can score a reliable, decent amount of points. Almost every team has the capability to do something like what they did. So the first thing to consider is, what is the best way for my team to score the most amount of points, not the best way for any team to score the maximum amount of points, depending on machining ability, shop time available (for those of us that work in schools, and don't have 24/7 access to their shops), budget constraints, driving skill, and design/CAD ability. Side note: every team has access to free CAD programs, both from Autodesk and Dassault (Solidworks). OUr team uses a combination of both, since we have students familiar with each.

[PayneTrain]

I would like to pose a question: Ultimate Strategy for What?

- Ultimate Strategy to Qualify #1
- Ultimate Strategy to Get Picked
- Ultimate Strategy to Win a Regional
- Ultimate Strategy to Win Championships
- Ultimate Strategy within your team's abilities

I would strongly argue that these goals are not all the same.

If you want to be #1, first try to predict the alliance score. Then cut at least a third off of that number because the average alliance score is always overestimated for a number of reasons. You would want to build a system that guarantees a large autonomous score to break as many ties as possible, and because it can provide almost as many points per robot as the highest hang. You also want a consistent hanging mechanism, but to 1-seed a regional it just needs to work at level one or two consistently, not three.

If you want to ensure someone picks you, build a defensive-minded drive train and spend the rest of your time working on a 30-point hang that never fails. Intelligent scouting doesn't mean that as a captain you try to find the two best robots available for your team, but the two that best complement your strategy. Those that know that will probably pick a robot like that.

The ultimate strategy to win a regional is as team specific as it is event specific. Maybe you should aim to build a #1 robot that can pick up a great #2 and ideal #24 complement. Maybe your team should try to build a dark horse robot to be a surprisingly good late pick in selection.

The ultimate strategy to win championship lives or dies by the armory of resources a team has at its disposal, so that may be out of the picture for a lot of teams. I assume that on top of satisfying requirements for the #1 robot at a regional, you should have a way to consistently deliver the colored discs to the pyramid goal and definitely go for a solid 30 point climb.

[StAxis]

I would like to pose a question: Ultimate Strategy for What?

- Ultimate Strategy to Qualify #1
- Ultimate Strategy to Get Picked
- Ultimate Strategy to Win a Regional
- Ultimate Strategy to Win Championships
- Ultimate Strategy within your team's abilities

I would strongly argue that these goals are not all the same.

To qualify #1: Deadly accurate shooter with 10 point hang and fast floor pickup
To get picked: 30 point climb and dumping (shouldn't be underestimated, but I imagine alliances 6-8 will rely on climbing like they did balancing last year)
To win a regional: Robot as described to rank #1, a manual loading shooter or feeder, and a climb and dumper
-To win championships: 1 robot as described to rank #1, a decent shooter with 30 point climb ability, and a climber with dumping ability
-Depending on ability: For rookie teams, create a robot that can get frisbees loaded into you and then disperse them with an identical slot on the other side, fast load and shoot combo to get picked, then 10 point hang. For mediocre teams it's going to be a decision between climbing and shooting, but pick one and go after it. Finally for the elites of the world, if you can climb 3 levels in less than 20 seconds and still have a good shooter, which I believe at least someone will do, I will just sit there is awe.

[karomata]

This.

Also, your teams lifting mechanism in 2010 was very interesting... it was brought up a couple of times at our meeting today.

Now that you mention it, one of our prototyping teams is trying to create a design, in which our robot goes up to the corner of the pyramid, latches on with a mechanism similar to our 2010 robot, then lifts itself up. Then, using an identical mechanism on the other side, grabs the pole and flips itself over again, and it does that 2 or 3 times to reach the top.

[AllieS4246]

However, an alliance is more likely to have 3 solid climbers than 3 good shooters. 3 climbers will score 120 points before any baskets. If a bot can climb to 20 points, they can get 30 points, so the real option is 10 points for climbing. So an all shooting alliance would have to score 90 points and hold the other alliance scoreless.

Please explain the logic behind 120 points in just climbing. The Max is 30 for each team, and an alliance has 3 teams.:confused: 90 points....?

[mwmac]

Please explain the logic behind 120 points in just climbing. The Max is 30 for each team, and an alliance has 3 teams.:confused: 90 points....?

Perhaps assuming that 6 colored disks are scored by the climbing alliance?

[AllieS4246]

Assuming the quote I am going %100 climbing only.

[Adamc4]

Perhaps assuming that 6 colored disks are scored by the climbing alliance?

You also can't preload colored discs, so on those grounds the dedicated climber bots would probably need a solid drive system to load those discs, and capable storage for getting the 5 pointers. You might as well just have a dump robot then that doesnt need to shoot, but just dumps 1 pointers, and then climbs. That way it can be a climbing robot, but can gain easy dumping points

[Donut]

Given the parameters and observations, I expect the following scoring breakdown in the Einstein round:

...

- Total: 216-235 points


This would be some of the most epic Einstein matches ever if we saw scores like this. I can only hope it happens.

I think that the ability of teams to build successful 30 point climbers is being a bit overestimated. Given how some previous end games have gone (and I think most previous end games are easier than this one) there will be Regional events where maybe one team at the entire competition can successfully climb for 30, and it may not be consistent. I could see it at IRI but I think it will take the stars aligning for a triple 30 point climb alliance to form even at the World Championships. I just don't see a good 30 point climber being left for a 2nd pick anywhere.

I still really like the climbing and dumping bot idea, and could see a robot like that seeding #1 at a regional if it is built to execute consistently. 30 climb points, 20 dump points, 6 autonomous points, and 12-20 low goal points a match depending on how it loads would give it close to 70 points a match. That's pretty much unbeatable in most qualifications barring an unlucky pairing against 1114 and 67 at once. An 18 point autonomous shooter with a 10 point hang still needs to hit 4 volleys of 4 disks with near 100% accuracy to stay even with super dump bot.

[sharrington9614]

So far 1757 is going with a shooter as well as a grappling hook gun and a winch to hoist the robot to the second tier, thoughts?

[CalTran]

This would be some of the most epic Einstein matches ever if we saw scores like this. I can only hope it happens.

I think that the ability of teams to build successful 30 point climbers is being a bit overestimated. Given how some previous end games have gone (and I think most previous end games are easier than this one) there will be Regional events where maybe one team at the entire competition can successfully climb for 30, and it may not be consistent. I could see it at IRI but I think it will take the stars aligning for a triple 30 point climb alliance to form even at the World Championships. I just don't see a good 30 point climber being left for a 2nd pick anywhere.

I still really like the climbing and dumping bot idea, and could see a robot like that seeding #1 at a regional if it is built to execute consistently. 30 climb points, 20 dump points, 6 autonomous points, and 12-20 low goal points a match depending on how it loads would give it close to 70 points a match. That's pretty much unbeatable in most qualifications barring an unlucky pairing against 1114 and 67 at once. An 18 point autonomous shooter with a 10 point hang still needs to hit 4 volleys of 4 disks with near 100% accuracy to stay even with super dump bot.

12-20 low points is really pushing it...that's three to FIVE trips, not including your color run, across the field, not including ample time to climb up the pyramid and defense

[Justin Montois]

So far 1757 is going with a shooter as well as a grappling hook gun and a winch to hoist the robot to the second tier, thoughts?

Remember that you need to contact the first tier and get completely off the ground before going to the second rung.

Also, it's important to remember your teams ability, resources, past successes ETC before deciding on a strategy. A robot that can consistently climb to the 2nd level to will be successful at most regionals. Focus on doing one thing really well as opposed to multiple things at a lower ability.

[nathan_hui]

G22
Expect to have to demonstrate a ROBOT’S ability to constrain itself per B above during
Inspection. PLAYING CONFIGURATION constraints may be implemented with either
hardware or software.

I'm not sure the gun would be able to meet that requirement. Also, I'm pretty sure the gun is illegal under FRC rules. Maybe R08, R09.

[Donut]

12-20 low points is really pushing it...that's three to FIVE trips, not including your color run, across the field, not including ample time to climb up the pyramid and defense

I was hedging more towards 3, which would give a total score of 68. If you figure a climb takes 30-45 seconds then you have 1:15-1:30 for scoring those 3 batches of disks. The advantage super dump bot has is that scoring in the low goal should be 95%+ accurate and wouldn't take much time to line up for.

If a team could somehow fit a floor pickup mechanism in there to avoid runs to the feeding station then I think the design could push 80 points.

All of this is assuming pretty low defense. Defense will definitely bring the number of scoring runs down significantly (maybe 4-8 points), but defense will bring down high goal shooters' scores as well. It may even be disproportionate; if you can't keep super dump bot essentially pinned the entire match then it has 56 points that are not defend-able (6 points autonomous, 30 point climb, 20 point dump on top of pyramid), while the accurate high shooter has only 28 points that are not defend-able (18 points autonomous, 10 point climb).

[ChurgoII]

if you can't keep super dump bot essentially pinned the entire match then it has 56 points that are not defend-able (6 points autonomous, 30 point climb, 20 point dump on top of pyramid), while the accurate high shooter has only 28 points that are not defend-able (18 points autonomous, 10 point climb).
However, you don't take into account the points they score DURING the teleop. Not to mention, I can garuntee there will be teams who figure out how to shoot accuratly AND get the 30pts for climbing. One of those bots could easily trump a dumb bot.

The dumb bot may be easier to build, but the work for an all-around is worth it.

[Donut]

However, you don't take into account the points they score DURING the teleop. Not to mention, I can garuntee there will be teams who figure out how to shoot accuratly AND get the 30pts for climbing. One of those bots could easily trump a dumb bot.

The dumb bot may be easier to build, but the work for an all-around is worth it.

The last part of that post is comparing points that can be scored while defense is illegal, e.g. autonomous and when in contact with the pyramid. Overall point potential I think is very similar between a 30 point climb dump bot and a 10 point climb shooter.

You made me realize an important effect of the rules I might have missed though, and maybe other teams did too. Is it illegal to defend against a shooter (make contact) while it is in contact with the pyramid but is clearly not attempting to climb? I will have to check the manual more closely to see. If so shooting bots could use the pyramid like the key was used last year.

I definitely agree that a do it all bot would trump either design I am comparing. But I think a do it all bot that works well is outside the capability of 95% or more of FRC teams, mine included.

[Gregor]

You made me realize an important effect of the rules I might have missed though, and maybe other teams did too. Is it illegal to defend against a shooter (make contact) while it is in contact with the pyramid but is clearly not attempting to climb? I will have to check the manual more closely to see. If so shooting bots could use the pyramid like the key was used last year.

G30
Regardless of who initiates the contact, a ROBOT may not contact an opponent ROBOT

contacting its PYRAMID or
touching the carpet in its LOADING ZONE.


Violation: FOUL. If purposeful or consequential, TECHNICAL FOUL. If an opponent's CLIMB is affected, each affected opponent ROBOT will be awarded points for a successful Level 3 CLIMB.

[SheepGuy]

It seems that everyone believes the max you can score from the tower is 50. But I think if you make a robot that sort of has a glove for a feeder could possibly score some more 5 point frisbee's. If I am not mistaken you can throw the frisbee's at the end of the match. So, why couldn't the human player (with much practice) toss the frisbee at the glove and let the robot dump the frisbee in the tower goal. <- This being already suspended.
(I am not sure if this is legal as I haven't throughly looked at the rules.)

[Donut]

It seems that everyone believes the max you can score from the tower is 50. But I think if you make a robot that sort of has a glove for a feeder could possibly score some more 5 point frisbee's. If I am not mistaken you can throw the frisbee's at the end of the match. So, why couldn't the human player (with much practice) toss the frisbee at the glove and let the robot dump the frisbee in the tower goal. <- This is being already suspended.
(I am not sure if this is legal as I haven't throughly looked at the rules.)

So basically use the "glove" as a backboard? This would be perfectly legal and would be a good strategy to try for 10 more points if no partner robots could score in the pyramid goal. Every match the human players might as well chuck their 6 colored frisbees at the pyramid goal to try to swing the match if they can, a robot backboard would increase the likelihood of making one of these shots. If we can get a climber working and go this route we might try that strategy...

Thanks for finding G30 Gregor. That definitely changes the game dynamic for shooter bots.

[Grim Tuesday]

Letting the human player lob them at it is a very interesting and feasible idea. If the 'good guy flag' as a friend of mine puts it requires a robot to do the scoring I don't think it's worth it. If the robot could be scoring 4 white discs in level 3 that's 12 pts vs 10 pts of colored discs.

[PayneTrain]

G30
Regardless of who initiates the contact, a ROBOT may not contact an opponent ROBOT

contacting its PYRAMID or
touching the carpet in its LOADING ZONE.


Violation: FOUL. If purposeful or consequential, TECHNICAL FOUL. If an opponent's CLIMB is affected, each affected opponent ROBOT will be awarded points for a successful Level 3 CLIMB.

Great news for people who want to get robots in a sweet spot around or in the pyramid, bad news for dumper-defenders.

[Gregor]

Did teams really not know about G30? It is a key rule to this game.

[PayneTrain]

Did teams really not know about G30? It is a key rule to this game.

I know since that's integral to my proposed strategy, but 1:48 AM me is kinda an idiot.

[CalTran]

I know since that's integral to my proposed strategy, but 1:48 AM me is kinda an idiot.

But that's Robowrangler time...:D

G30 should make for interesting plays, both in shooting, and in crossing the field to get to the feeding station.

[Donut]

Did teams really not know about G30? It is a key rule to this game.

I think everyone was aware of it in the sense of "don't touch any robots that are near the pyramid or loading." I think some of us missed the connection that teams being in contact with the pyramid aren't necessarily there to climb.

[mbarina]

Can robots start hanging on the pyramid before the last 30 seconds

[PayneTrain]

Can robots start hanging on the pyramid before the last 30 seconds

(From the FRC Q&A)

Q30 Q. At what time may the robot begin climbing the pyramid? The manual doesn't seem to specify.

A. There are no Rules dictating when a ROBOT may begin to CLIMB the PYRAMID.

[DMike]

This is a long thread and this thought might be contained within, sorry if I am repeating. Could a strong auto shooter in a defensive manner prevent a def/climber bot from ever reaching the pyramid for it's climb? The auto shooter would score 18 in auto 12 in tele and prevent a 30 point climb. essentially scoring 60 points.

[Citrus Dad]

Here's an assessment of this year's game's scoring:

Parameters:
- There are 72 potential points in autonomous.
- With 45 discs, the maximum points from fed discs is 135 points.
- Assuming that the colored discs are used at the end of the game, and most likely dumped directly in the goal after climbing the pyramid, an alliance can score 120 points on the pyramid. A single team can score 50 points by climbing and placing 4 discs. This procedure might even be easily automated.

Observations about likely outcomes:
- A single robot can probably score about 36-45 points in autonomous in cooperation with another robot feeding it. But most robots will score only 12 at best.
- We can expect roughly similar (or worse) teleop accuracy as last year's game. The best teams were scoring no more than 60-70 points in teleop, and most were less than 40.
- Unknown points can be scored with discs "owned" by the opposing alliance, but most likely, these will not be additive to the maximum available points.
- The floor will be littered with discs late in the game. This may affect strategies and tactics for the endgame.
- The best alliances will score 120 points in their endgame.

Given the parameters and observations, I expect the following scoring breakdown in the Einstein round:

- Autonomous: 36-45 points:
- Teleop: 60-70 points
- Pyramid: 120 points
- Total: 216-235 points

Note that the pyramid strategy has a high probability of reaching a full score in every match (unlike balancing 3 robots) once the climbing and placing tasks are mastered. On the other hand, the teleop scores will be highly variable and therefore riskier.

While the point breakdowns were off, and autonomous was important than pyramid climbing, the totals were pretty accurate. Our alliance led by Team 1678 had the top score in Einstein of 233.