January 8th Team Update

[bdbayes]

The January 8th Team update is now available at http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/Updates/0#term 24

[Christopher149]

In the update, I don't think section 3.2.4 was the one they meant to link in regards to climbing.

[vhcook]

The known control system bug list with workarounds where available is a nice development.

[Tetraman]

In the update, I don't think section 3.2.4 was the one they meant to link in regards to climbing.

Yea, I think it should be 3.1.5 where it says "Final scores will be assessed five (5) seconds after the ARENA timer displays zero (0) or when all elements come to rest, whichever event happens first."

Anyway, not much to really gain from this team update.

[dodar]

Wait Does this mean that you can just touch the zone 1 bar while on the ground and you'd be considered hanging in zone 1?

A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID and/or the floor (Level 0)

I ask this because all it says is that you have to climb sequentially and be touching no more than 2 levels at once. But you would first touch level 0 then level 1 and you would only be touching 2 levels. Which, by the rules, means you can just drive up, touch the pyramid, and would get 10 points.

[Nuttyman54]

Wait Does this mean that you can just touch the zone 1 bar while on the ground and you'd be considered hanging in zone 1?

A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID and/or the floor (Level 0)

I ask this because all it says is that you have to climb sequentially and be touching no more than 2 levels at once. But you would first touch level 0 then level 1 and you would only be touching 2 levels. Which, by the rules, means you can just drive up, touch the pyramid, and would get 10 points.

They haven't changed the rule about the lowest point of your robot being what counts. If you're resting on the ground, the lowest point on your robot is in Level 0, so you still get no points.

[dodar]

They haven't changed the rule about the lowest point of your robot being what counts. If you're resting on the ground, the lowest point on your robot is in Level 0, so you still get no points.

Ah yes.

[Jon Stratis]

The update to R48 is confusing... 20A circuit breakers now have 2 conflicting minimum wire gauges? 14 gauge for 20-30, but 18 gauge for 5-20... are these numbers inclusive, exclusive, or what?

Personally, I hope the intention is to allow 18 gauge wire with 20A circuit breakers, like in years past. The rule as initially stated worried me from an inspection standpoint, as many teams would have assumed the previous rules for wire gauges were still good...

[ktrobotcreator]

I am still confused about the zone thing. It seems that the rule is intended to mean you can't contact any more than one zone (so bars only and the whole floor), but that was never clarified. Timing on pyramid climbing has also not been specificed. Since there isn't a rule about it, we can assume you can start climbing whenever, but a clarification would still be nice. I am also confused about the starting positions. It seems like from the placement of the pyramid, if you are touching it, you always have to be between your auto line and the goals, but it says you can preload different numbers of frisbees depending on if you're behind it or not.

Thoughts?

[Siri]

I am still confused about the zone thing. It seems that the rule is intended to mean you can't contact any more than one zone (so bars only and the whole floor), but that was never clarified. Timing on pyramid climbing has also not been specificed. Since there isn't a rule about it, we can assume you can start climbing whenever, but a clarification would still be nice. I am also confused about the starting positions. It seems like from the placement of the pyramid, if you are touching it, you always have to be between your auto line and the goals, but it says you can preload different numbers of frisbees depending on if you're behind it or not.

Thoughts?What clarification on zone contact are you looking for? It does say "A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID and/or the floor (Level 0) in..." [emphasis mine]


Autonomous: Go behind the pyramid (closer to the center of the field, away from your goals).

[ktrobotcreator]

What clarification on zone contact are you looking for?

When they say you can only be in 2 zones in once, does it specifically mean contact or just being in the area, including empty space. Sorry, should have said that at first.

Ok, so if you touch the pyramid from the far side of your goals, you are behind the line? (I can't quite tell from the diagrams.)

[Siri]

When they say you can only be in 2 zones in once, does it specifically mean contact or just being in the area, including empty space. Sorry, should have said that at first.

Ok, so if you touch the pyramid from the far side of your goals, you are behind the line? (I can't quite tell from the diagrams.)Game 3.1.5.2 does already specifically say "contact": A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID and/or the floor (Level 0) in...no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously.
Is there another issue?


Pyramids are "adjacent to each ALLIANCE’S AUTO LINE" (Arena 2.2.1), so yes, there's quite a bit of room around the centerfield part of each pyramid that also facilitates contact with non-Auto Zone carpet.
Understand it's the Auto Line (colored ones) you need, not the Center Line (white one). In fact, don't fully cross the Center Line in autonomous (G19).

[ktrobotcreator]

Originally Posted by Siri
Is there another issue?

No, I figured that was how the rule was intended to read.

Ok, that makes more sense now.

Thanks a bunch!
:D

[Christian2443]

Are we allowed to hook on to horizontal bar 1 while still on level 0, and then pull themselves up. When I think about it, I think its not allowed because the robot is touching level 0, level 1, and inside the level 2 zone because we hooked onto horizontal bar 1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyzbV6k02A&list=UUgtwgUTTxuldvAGW1u8SDSA&index=1

At 3:30, would this hanging method be legal?

[dcarr]

Are we allowed to hook on to horizontal bar 1 while still on level 0, and then pull themselves up. When I think about it, I think its not allowed because the robot is touching level 0, level 1, and inside the level 2 zone because we hooked onto horizontal bar 1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyzbV6k02A&list=UUgtwgUTTxuldvAGW1u8SDSA&index=1

At 3:30, would this hanging method be legal?

But it is not contacting the pyramid in Zone 2.

[nikeairmancurry]

But it is not contacting the pyramid in Zone 2.

I would deem this correct. It's all about contacting, not the airspace inbetween the levels, or as I have come to accept it as.

[vhcook]

Are we allowed to hook on to horizontal bar 1 while still on level 0, and then pull themselves up. When I think about it, I think its not allowed because the robot is touching level 0, level 1, and inside the level 2 zone because we hooked onto horizontal bar 1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyzbV6k02A&list=UUgtwgUTTxuldvAGW1u8SDSA&index=1

At 3:30, would this hanging method be legal?

If having robot components in level 2, but not touching any physical object that is part of level 2, would prevent a climb, then it would bar any robot over 30 inches tall from climbing. I think you're making this harder than it has to be. :]

The floor is level 0, the crossbar is level 1, nothing else gets touched, and the robot started on the floor. All is well.

[TheMadCADer]

Are we allowed to hook on to horizontal bar 1 while still on level 0, and then pull themselves up. When I think about it, I think its not allowed because the robot is touching level 0, level 1, and inside the level 2 zone because we hooked onto horizontal bar 1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyzbV6k02A&list=UUgtwgUTTxuldvAGW1u8SDSA&index=1

At 3:30, would this hanging method be legal?

Don't worry about which zones the robot is in, just the zones it is contacting. The location of the robot doesn't matter at all until the match ends and they check your height.

In your "hook bar 1 and pull up" scenario, the robot touches zone 0, then zone 0 and a bar in zone 1, then only a bar in zone 1, coming to rest with the lowest point of the robot being contained in zone 1. Scenario-bot scores 10 points for its alliance.

[Christian2443]

Thank you everyone for there help! :) My team has been trying to build a robot to get around our current understanding. Some of us are thinking of pneumatic jumping, or using the slanted bar to climb instead.

[galewind]

Does this now clarify the notion that robots need to be "hanging out" in zone 3 at the end of the match to receive the 30 point bonus? Or does it basically say "you'll get the points when the match is over". Before it used to say "by" the end of the match, and now I think it's saying "after 5s after the match is over".

[Steven Donow]

Does this now clarify the notion that robots need to be "hanging out" in zone 3 at the end of the match to receive the 30 point bonus? Or does it basically say "you'll get the points when the match is over". Before it used to say "by" the end of the match, and now I think it's saying "after 5s after the match is over".
Yes, the update states that points are assessed based off the lowest point of the robot "at the point in which final scores are assessed per Section 3.2.4", which would be the five seconds after the match.

[JohnBoucher]

The known issues link is a great step forward. Thanks FIRST :D

[Nate Laverdure]

I'm bothered by the new language of 3.1.5.2, which now uses the word "point" to mean three different things in the same paragraph:The Level to which a ROBOT has CLIMBED is determined by the lowest [physical location] of the ROBOT (in relation to the FIELD) at the [moment in time] in which final scores are assessed per Section 3.2.4. CLIMB [game score] values and Levels are defined in Figure 3-4.

[Tem1514 Mentor]

I would say that is a legal climb to level 1 for a 10 point bonus as per the climb rules.

One I did notice was the team would have been given a foul when the person that was feeding frisbees to the bot passed his hand into the game area. Opps, big safety issue.::ouch::

[CLandrum3081]

This may be my sleep deprivation-induced stupidity, but I'm a little unclear on something. Does an alliance receive points for EACH robot on the pyramid, or just the highest robot on the pyramid?

[cgmv123]

This may be my sleep deprivation-induced stupidity, but I'm a little unclear on something. Does an alliance receive points for EACH robot on the pyramid, or just the highest robot on the pyramid?

Each.

[CLandrum3081]

Thanks! My team was under the impression it was only the highest robot. We were still unclear after several reads through the manual. ::rtm:: :o

[Gregor]

Thanks! My team was under the impression it was only the highest robot. We were still unclear after several reads through the manual. ::rtm:: :o

While Max is correct, don't just take the word of someone on CD. Especially don't base your strategy around one post. Read the manual to find the answer, it isn't that hard. If you still can't find the answer, ask someone to quote the rule for you.

[CLandrum3081]

While Max is correct, don't just take the word of someone on CD. Especially don't base your strategy around one post. Read the manual to find the answer, it isn't that hard. If you still can't find the answer, ask someone to quote the rule for you.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind in the future. I've read through the manual (especially that particular section) several times and it just wasn't clicking. I also find it interesting that it hasn't come up in Q&A yet, and it won't let me submit a question because I'm a new user. I just hoped different perspective on the rule would help it make more sense - even other team members were confused, especially after this update.