Where are you going to hang?

[$wimmer3138]

I came up with the idea for this poll to see where teams are going to hang. I plan on having another poll later on in the season to see if people have changed their minds as they assess the difficulty of climbing.

[nathan_hui]

2473 is considering the rungs not the corner

[cgmv123]

We'll either go all the way up, or just hang at level 1.

[sarah_storer]

We'll either go all the way up, or just hang at level 1.
Same for us...if you can get from 1 to 2 what is stopping you from getting from 2 to 3?

[nikeairmancurry]

Same for us...if you can get from 1 to 2 what is stopping you from getting from 2 to 3?

Time.

[Akash Rastogi]

Working our way up from 10 point at the start of the season to 20. Doubt we will have the capacity to work up to 30.

[CalTran]

We plan on climbing the Pyramid. I'd love to stick around and chat about it but I'm not sure how much detail we want to release yet.

[mrnoble]

We plan on climbing the Pyramid. I'd love to stick around and chat about it but I'm not sure how much detail we want to release yet.

same. I think the top might get crowded this year!

[Tao]

What I've been wondering is are most people going up via the inside of the pyramid, or the outside (side or corner)?
If a lot of people intend on going up the inside (which I'd imagine is relatively easier) it's going to get crowded in there.

[Jon Stratis]

I think many people are underestimating the difficulty of climbing to the third level at this point in time... it'll be interesting to see how things turn out!

[thefro526]

I think many people are underestimating the difficulty of climbing to the third level at this point in time... it'll be interesting to see how things turn out!

I think many people are underestimating some of the 'less traditional' methods of gameplay in regards to pyramid climbing and being competitive.

For example, let's say a team scores 5 disks in autonomous into the 3 point goal (not that hard, really) for a 30pt contribution. Then they run to the Human player at the start of teleop and load with 4 colored disks. By this point in time, they're somewhere around 15-20 seconds into the match, and they go to the pyramid and begin their ascent...

Now they've got 1.5 minutes or more, to ascend the pyramid. If their climb is successful, they're good for 30pts.... If they score the 4 colored disks once they're up there - add 20 more.

I can think of quite a few concepts that could be built by 75-80% of teams out there that would could execute this strategy... The real question is, will teams see that 80pts this way can be much easier than 80 points the 'normal' way....? Probably not.

[Squeakypig]

I think many people are underestimating some of the 'less traditional' methods of gameplay in regards to pyramid climbing and being competitive.

For example, let's say a team scores 5 disks in autonomous into the 3 point goal (not that hard, really) for a 30pt contribution. Then they run to the Human player at the start of teleop and load with 4 colored disks. By this point in time, they're somewhere around 15-20 seconds into the match, and they go to the pyramid and begin their ascent...

Now they've got 1.5 minutes or more, to ascend the pyramid. If their climb is successful, they're good for 30pts.... If they score the 4 colored disks once they're up there - add 20 more.

I can think of quite a few concepts that could be built by 75-80% of teams out there that would could execute this strategy... The real question is, will teams see that 80pts this way can be much easier than 80 points the 'normal' way....? Probably not.

I'm not saying this can't be done, but this strategy includes a shooting mechanism, a pick-up from ground mechanism, a high climbing system, and a disk dumping system...it looks like a lot on paper. I don't doubt it can be done, but feasible for the 75%-80% of teams out there I'm not sure I agree.

[thefro526]

I'm not saying this can't be done, but this strategy includes a shooting mechanism, a pick-up from ground mechanism, a high climbing system, and a disk dumping system...it looks like a lot on paper. I don't doubt it can be done, but feasible for the 75%-80% of teams out there I'm not sure I agree.

Without getting too far off the thread topic, here are a few points to think about.

- You don't need to "shoot", as many are shooting, to score in the 3 point goal.

- Autonomous disks are always in a known orientation and position at the beginning of a match.

- A high climbing system is nothing more than a hanging mechanism that repeats at least once.

- Upward motion can be converted into a rotation with a basic understanding of physics.

In any case, since I'm at risk of revealing too much, I'll stop. If anyone would like to continue, please PM me.

[Jon Stratis]

so, you're basically saying your team is going to design a system that can score 80 points (30 Auto, 30 hanging, 20 dumping), all in under a minute? In that case, the rest of us should just stop now, you'll win champs.

Of course, if you don't get everything finished, or it doesn't all work well, you're hosed for trying to take on too much...

[Jared Russell]

so, you're basically saying your team is going to design a system that can score 80 points (30 Auto, 30 hanging, 20 dumping), all in under a minute? In that case, the rest of us should just stop now, you'll win champs.

Of course, if you don't get everything finished, or it doesn't all work well, you're hosed for trying to take on too much...

No, he's not saying that. What he's saying is that a team with limited resources can choose to do only the pyramid + 5 pointers and be a valuable contributor to an alliance.

Let's say that is literally all that bot does - no auton, no pickup, no teleop scoring, most basic drive train possible. Just a basket for colored disks and a hanging mechanism that has ~90 seconds to climb the pyramid. If that bot works correctly, it is worth 50 points per match.

I can guarantee you that the median team OPR this year will be well below 50. It will be well below 30 for that matter. Any 30 point climber is well above the "Minimum Competitive Concept" for 2013.

[Jon Stratis]

No, he's not saying that. What he's saying is that a team with limited resources can choose to do only the pyramid + 5 pointers and be a valuable contributor to an alliance.

Let's say that is literally all that bot does - no auton, no pickup, no teleop scoring, most basic drive train possible. Just a basket for colored disks and a hanging mechanism that has ~90 seconds to climb the pyramid. If that bot works correctly, it is worth 50 points per match.

I can guarantee you that the median team OPR this year will be well below 50. It will be well below 30 for that matter. Any 30 point climber is well above the "Minimum Competitive Concept" for 2013.

There's a difference between what he is saying and what you're saying. He starts with 5 discs scored in autonomous, you don't.

I think focusing on climbing a dumping is a perfectly sound strategy, as is focusing on shooting and picking up disks. Doing a robot that thefro526 described in post #11 combines those two into one superbot that can do everything.

[thefro526]

There's a difference between what he is saying and what you're saying. He starts with 5 discs scored in autonomous, you don't.

I think focusing on climbing a dumping is a perfectly sound strategy, as is focusing on shooting and picking up disks. Doing a robot that thefro526 described in post #11 combines those two into one superbot that can do everything.

Jared has the advantage of knowing how I think, so to him, what he said and what I said, are the same thing.

Without spilling the beans on EXACTLY how to do what I described in post 11, imagine the following.

A Kit Bot, perhaps 32"L x 26"W or somewhere about there, with a single jointed arm. This single jointed arm has a sort of 'bucket' on the end of it that functions exactly like a spatula would when cooking a omelette or a pancake. Let's say this bucket can hold some amount of discs in a lower compartment greater than two. This arm with said bucket is powered by a CIM motor or two and is very light weight. If you were to move this arm upwards at the highest speed possible with gearing and assistance designed to not draw more than 40A or so, what does it become?

A catapult.

Now lets go back to the spatula bucket... When you're cooking an omelette or pancakes, if you hit them just right with the spatula, the omelette or pancake stays still, while the spatula moves under.... So if you drive at two disks pre-placed on the field reasonably quickly, the spatula moves right under them.

Now you use you catapult again.

Since you've got a spatula bucket on the end of your arm, with more than one compartment, you have a place to load 4 colored disks in as well... From here, it's just about climbing.

So you add a mechanism that allows you to retract and hold position, since you can already 'reach' out and up on the pyramid....

I'm fairly sure that this is no super robot.

Efficient analysis of the real challenge is the key to success with limited resources.

Edit-----

I went back and reread the posts from #12-#16 and wanted to add something:

I am more or less trying to show that an ascent to Zone 3 is not an unreasonable task to expect to be done, especially if you take in to consideration that some teams may decide to spend the better portion of the match doing so. I took this idea one step further in an attempt to validate this school of thought, showing that a robot that had been based around an ascent to zone three can actually be an upper mid tier robot with some creative thinking and a little bit of extra work.

Sometimes we get so caught up in the arms race, the quest to figure out what the Captain of the world champion alliance is going to do, that we forget about what their second pick will do, the 24th team in the draft of that division who is often the robot that can either push an alliance to the top, or drag it to the very bottom. The majority of the discussion I have seen so far focuses on hanging quickly, purely at the end game. Odds are, the captain of the world champion alliance will do this, much in the same way that champions of the past, but it isn't a requirement for every team to be successful at a reasonably high level.

I just hope some team out there sees what I've said and it 'clicks'. Odds are, if you focus on the Zone 3 ascent, and are $@#$@#$@#$@# good at it, you'll be ahead of more than half of the pack. If you can do the ascent and a few tricks while on the way up, you'll definitely be a force wherever you go - might not win all of the matches, but I can assure you that many of those that you win could not have been won without you.

[wesbass23]

To those of you (2 people as of now) who say you will not even attempt climbing. Why not?

[$wimmer3138]

To those of you (2 people as of now) who say you will not even attempt climbing. Why not?

One of those votes comes from 2056... very interesting. I'm extremely excited to see what they come up with this year.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Same for us...if you can get from 1 to 2 what is stopping you from getting from 2 to 3?
Right now? That darn pyramid goal above the third rung. Your climbing mechanism can only stick up 7"-8" above a rung. Any more than that, and you run into the bottom of the pyramid goal.

[PayneTrain]

Now lets go back to the spatula bucket... When you're cooking an omelette or pancakes, if you hit them just right with the spatula, the omelette or pancake stays still, while the spatula moves under.... So if you drive at two disks pre-placed on the field reasonably quickly, the spatula moves right under them.


My brain understands what you're saying, but now my heart wants a pancake making robot.

If I was a rookie or a low resource team, I would seriously consider looking at drawing parallels between the last two endgames and this year's endgame. While no game has involved throwing frisbees before, there are interesting, simple relations anyone with background in FRC history could draw together. If you also keep in mind the common tendency to always overestimate score and your team's ability, year after year, even with the ever-present benefit of hindsight, you may find yourself on the path to an alternative approach to the game.

I'm not saying some teams should completely disregard any kind of floor intake or launching mechanisms in order to build the most reliable 30point climber with an option for some simple frisbee dump-only system, but to say it's something not even worth considering would be shortchanging the brainstorming process, something that can be made evident later on.

[midway78224]

We plan to hang from level one and work our way up to level 3 depending on time.

[nuggetsyl]

Low and to the left.

[waialua359]

Its interesting and quite surprising to see the majority say 30 point hang.
One things for sure........you'll see teams go to the feeder station, grab 4 frisbees, and shoot them for 12 points faster than a team takes to go from levels 2-3 on the hang bonus.

[Jakester9999]

This is very interesting. If they do take the time to climb to the 30 point rung for the whole match, that leaves the match to be a 2 on 3 competiton.... One less robot in the way on the field, but could possibly mean double teaming for defense....

[mrnoble]

I have a 10-ish year history with FIRST, and can't recall there ever being a robot in competition that was intentionally immobile on the floor. This may be the year, as it seems a very viable approach to the game to simply hang for 30.

I agree with the previous poster who said that teams usually overestimate how many points will win a match in a regional. Yes, there are always teams that have elegant, simple, effective machines that do almost everything well, and they will show up this year. Their matches will be blowouts. But since, at most regionals, they comprise about 2-5 teams, most of the other matches will be low scoring, and will be decided by robots that perform consistently. I like the idea that a robot with a backhoe bucket and no shooter could score 15 points in zone one by scooping up all the missed shots and dumping them. I like that a 10 or 30 point hang could mean a win, from a bot that does little else.

This could be a great year, in my opinion.

[waialua359]

I have a 10-ish year history with FIRST, and can't recall there ever being a robot in competition that was intentionally immobile on the floor. This may be the year, as it seems a very viable approach to the game to simply hang for 30.

I agree with the previous poster who said that teams usually overestimate how many points will win a match in a regional. Yes, there are always teams that have elegant, simple, effective machines that do almost everything well, and they will show up this year. Their matches will be blowouts. But since, at most regionals, they comprise about 2-5 teams, most of the other matches will be low scoring, and will be decided by robots that perform consistently. I like the idea that a robot with a backhoe bucket and no shooter could score 15 points in zone one by scooping up all the missed shots and dumping them. I like that a 10 or 30 point hang could mean a win, from a bot that does little else.

This could be a great year, in my opinion.
Although our team's attempt wont be to build a robot that only focuses on the bonus points, I can definitely see picking one of those types of bots as alliance partners to strengthen an alliance................if they can do it every time.

[Mongai]

Climbing to the third level is the "distraction", our team has determined. We'll go for the first level but we'll work on an accurate autonomous shooter that will ultimately break our match ties in qualifications.

[sarah_storer]

Jared has the advantage of knowing how I think, so to him, what he said and what I said, are the same thing.

Without spilling the beans on EXACTLY how to do what I described in post 11, imagine the following.

A Kit Bot, perhaps 32"L x 26"W or somewhere about there, with a single jointed arm. This single jointed arm has a sort of 'bucket' on the end of it that functions exactly like a spatula would when cooking a omelette or a pancake. Let's say this bucket can hold some amount of discs in a lower compartment greater than two. This arm with said bucket is powered by a CIM motor or two and is very light weight. If you were to move this arm upwards at the highest speed possible with gearing and assistance designed to not draw more than 40A or so, what does it become?

A catapult.

Now lets go back to the spatula bucket... When you're cooking an omelette or pancakes, if you hit them just right with the spatula, the omelette or pancake stays still, while the spatula moves under.... So if you drive at two disks pre-placed on the field reasonably quickly, the spatula moves right under them.

Now you use you catapult again.

Since you've got a spatula bucket on the end of your arm, with more than one compartment, you have a place to load 4 colored disks in as well... From here, it's just about climbing.

So you add a mechanism that allows you to retract and hold position, since you can already 'reach' out and up on the pyramid....

I'm fairly sure that this is no super robot.

Efficient analysis of the real challenge is the key to success with limited resources.

Edit-----

I went back and reread the posts from #12-#16 and wanted to add something:

I am more or less trying to show that an ascent to Zone 3 is not an unreasonable task to expect to be done, especially if you take in to consideration that some teams may decide to spend the better portion of the match doing so. I took this idea one step further in an attempt to validate this school of thought, showing that a robot that had been based around an ascent to zone three can actually be an upper mid tier robot with some creative thinking and a little bit of extra work.

Sometimes we get so caught up in the arms race, the quest to figure out what the Captain of the world champion alliance is going to do, that we forget about what their second pick will do, the 24th team in the draft of that division who is often the robot that can either push an alliance to the top, or drag it to the very bottom. The majority of the discussion I have seen so far focuses on hanging quickly, purely at the end game. Odds are, the captain of the world champion alliance will do this, much in the same way that champions of the past, but it isn't a requirement for every team to be successful at a reasonably high level.

I just hope some team out there sees what I've said and it 'clicks'. Odds are, if you focus on the Zone 3 ascent, and are $@#$@#$@#$@# good at it, you'll be ahead of more than half of the pack. If you can do the ascent and a few tricks while on the way up, you'll definitely be a force wherever you go - might not win all of the matches, but I can assure you that many of those that you win could not have been won without you.
But aren't you allowed to climb the pyramid ONLY in the last 30 seconds of the match?

[Jared Russell]

Its interesting and quite surprising to see the majority say 30 point hang.

This poll should be re-posted on stop build day and we'll see if we get the same results :)

But aren't you allowed to climb the pyramid ONLY in the last 30 seconds of the match?

This is not the rule.

[Steven Donow]

But aren't you allowed to climb the pyramid ONLY in the last 30 seconds of the match?

No, you can climb whenever you want during the match; the only time restriction is you must be hanging by the end of the match

[sarah_storer]

No, you can climb whenever you want during the match; the only time restriction is you must be hanging by the end of the match

Oh okay...thanks

[dellagd]

Climbing to the third level is the "distraction", our team has determined. We'll go for the first level but we'll work on an accurate autonomous shooter that will ultimately break our match ties in qualifications.

In the past two years, many if not most matches have been decided by the end game. Deeming 30 points as a "distraction" seems a bit harsh for its worth.

[mrnoble]

Could be that the frisbees are the red herring this year. ;)

I've watched the videos of the 3-day build, and while I am thoroughly super impressed, I want to advise that shooting straight-on, sitting still in an ideal position, with no other action around the bot, is VERY different than shooting accurately under all the pressure of an actual competition. Many of you know this, of course, but it bears repeating.

[Donut]

I have a 10-ish year history with FIRST, and can't recall there ever being a robot in competition that was intentionally immobile on the floor. This may be the year, as it seems a very viable approach to the game to simply hang for 30.

While not immobile in the literal sense of the word, 469 in 2010 and 71 in 2002 were very close to it since driving around the field was not part of their strategy (71 did not have the ability to turn that year, only drive forward/reverse).


Really the title of this thread should be "Where do you think you are going to try to hang?" because there is no way that more teams will climb to the 30 point level than the 10 point level. I'll be curious how many teams even have a mechanism to attempt a 30 point climb at the end of build, let alone one that actually works well.

[JJackson]

Maybe 2056 will roll to the top?

[Gregor]

Maybe 2056 will roll to the top?

I think they're already there. ;)

[Justin Montois]

I'm really surprised at the amount of people saying that are hanging for 30. It will be interesting to see how many teams pull it off.

[Gregor]

I'm really surprised at the amount of people saying that are hanging for 30. It will be interesting to see how many teams pull it off.

I predict most teams will try to hang for 30 points during build season. Less than half will end up hanging for 10, and less than 1/4 will hang for 30.

[dellagd]

I'm really surprised at the amount of people saying that are hanging for 30. It will be interesting to see how many teams pull it off.

Yeah. when you get into it, its alot harder than what meets the eye.

[sanddrag]

The increase in difficulty from 20 to 30 is significantly greater than the increase in difficulty in going from 10 to 20.

[Joon Park]

Definitely agreed with the fact that climbing is much harder than originally perceived... It seems the GDC did a fantastic job with creating the game this year; I don't ever recall seeing our team or the community at large so split on such big issues.

[dellagd]

Definitely agreed with the fact that climbing is much harder than originally perceived... It seems the GDC did a fantastic job with creating the game this year; I don't ever recall seeing our team or the community at large so split on such big issues.

I think we can all agree that this game is way harder than last year's (cue the objections....)

[Sean Raia]

Interesting... So if 2056 isn't going to hang, are they going to perch?

[dellagd]

Just saw these again:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=110393

This tells me that if you can hang the thirty, youre in pretty good shape :)

(Which is good news for us :P)

I wonder what MAR and Michigan would have done to the stats...

[PayneTrain]

Interesting... So if 2056 isn't going to hang, are they going to perch?

Canadians have built invisibility cloaks to hide their perpetual snow machines from the world so why can't 2056 just teleport up to the top of the pyramid?

[AllenGregoryIV]

Working our way up from 10 point at the start of the season to 20. Doubt we will have the capacity to work up to 30.

I agree with this. Before yesterday I would have said 30, but now with a little CAD and G23 (the 54" cylinder rule), it's looking much more like a 10 point hang. I'm going to be very impressed with teams that manage to fit in that cylinder and still hang for 30 points. It's possible, it's just not easy.

[lcoreyl]

I agree with this. Before yesterday I would have said 30, but now with a little CAD and G23 (the 54" cylinder rule), it's looking much more like a 10 point hang. I'm going to be very impressed with teams that manage to fit in that cylinder and still hang for 30 points. It's possible, it's just not easy.

I agree, although how does the rule work if you are tipped on your side? Does the 54" cylinder tip along with you? Or does the cylinder stay vertical while you are tipped making your reach only add to your height?

[JosephC]

I agree, although how does the rule work if you are tipped on your side? Does the 54" cylinder tip along with you? Or does the cylinder stay vertical while you are tipped making your reach only add to your height?

The cylinder stays the same.

Q&A question 15.

[danopia]

I agree, although how does the rule work if you are tipped on your side? Does the 54" cylinder tip along with you? Or does the cylinder stay vertical while you are tipped making your reach only add to your height?
The cylinder stays vertical. (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/15/asdf) (more) (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/40/asdf)

[Alan Anderson]

The increase in difficulty from 20 to 30 is significantly greater than the increase in difficulty in going from 10 to 20.

How so? If you've climbed from the 10-point to the 20-point level, just do the same thing again and you'll be at the 30-point level.

[Adam Freeman]

I agree with this. Before yesterday I would have said 30, but now with a little CAD and G23 (the 54" cylinder rule), it's looking much more like a 10 point hang. I'm going to be very impressed with teams that manage to fit in that cylinder and still hang for 30 points. It's possible, it's just not easy.

Exactly! G23 has been the biggest hurde that we have run up against so far. I think we now have a "concept" that can do it. Although after looking at the model for the pyramid, moving from 2 to 3 is not exactly the same as moving from 1 to 2....so that will probably be the next hurdle.

Getting to 30pts is not an easy task. Lots of people are saying they will do it, but I bet only a few will.

[MysterE]

In analyzing the strategy, I'd much rather be a bot that could shoot auto and hang than even worry about teloperated. Remember, when it comes to FMS rankings, you are looking at A) Game Win, B) Auto Score, C) Climb Score.

[$wimmer3138]

I plan on creating a second poll at the end of the build season to see how people change their minds because i believe the poll results will be completely different.

[Jon Stratis]

The increase in difficulty from 20 to 30 is significantly greater than the increase in difficulty in going from 10 to 20.

That depends on your design... To go from 20 to 30 with our design, we basically just have to copy part of it.

[Orion.DeYoe]

Now lets go back to the spatula bucket... When you're cooking an omelette or pancakes, if you hit them just right with the spatula, the omelette or pancake stays still, while the spatula moves under.... So if you drive at two disks pre-placed on the field reasonably quickly, the spatula moves right under them.


Someone posted this on the thread about picking up discs: http://www.diginfo.tv/v/11-0121-r-en.php

It seemed to fit with your possible mechanism.

[IndySam]

Canadians have built invisibility cloaks to hide their perpetual snow machines from the world so why can't 2056 just teleport up to the top of the pyramid?

The refs would have to see them touch each level so they would have to teleport one level at a time for a legal climb.

[Mongai]

In the past two years, many if not most matches have been decided by the end game. Deeming 30 points as a "distraction" seems a bit harsh for its worth.

I just say so because of the difficulty in doing so. Of course, difficulty is relative :)

[dodar]

In analyzing the strategy, I'd much rather be a bot that could shoot auto and hang than even worry about teloperated. Remember, when it comes to FMS rankings, you are looking at A) Game Win, B) Auto Score, C) Climb Score.

That should only be a team's midnset when going into Championships. But for thinking about winning a regional, you should build to score high in Auto and Tele-Op and then hang. If you build a robot for say Orlando(week 2) and you can score 2-4 in the 3pt in Auto and then score 10-15 in the 3pt in Tele-Op and then hang 10pt, thats 52-79pts. That will win you that regional, most likely as the #1 seed captain. More often than not, winning a regional by getting seeded usually plays out i the W/L column.

Vs. someone that builds a 1pt dumper and 30 point hanger that gets you maybe 46-50pts in that same match. Doing this kind of robot will also make your end score highly dependent on one factor of the match.(i.e. your livelyhood at that regional depends on you getting to the 3rd level of that pyramid, no if, ands, or buts)

[Kellen Hill]

Next poll question mainly targeted at those attempting the 30 point hang.

Are you hanging on the inside or the outside of the pyramid?



Once it comes to picking alliances for eliminations, you had better make sure you only have one interior climber on your alliance. Doesn't seem like there will be room for more than one robot when it comes to 30 point hanging on the inside.