Is the Chairman's Award fixed? I believe so..... [Archive]

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23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Becky Allen.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Student on team #16, Baxter Bomb Squad, from Mountain Home High School and Baxter Healthcare.

Posted on 8/2/2000 3:09 PM MST

In Reply to: Is the Chairman's Award fixed? I believe so..... posted by Vinny Bushemi on 8/2/2000 2:47 PM MST:

Did you do your research on this subject? Because as a 1999 and 2000 member of the Baxter Bomb Squad, I remember countless hours standing in the cold in front of local grocery and Wal-mart stores selling tickets in order for my team to be able to attend competitions and be a part of FIRST.
Baxter gives us support from engineers and some money, however, we, the students,raised thousands of dollars.
Besides money should play no factor in determining the Chairman's Award winner.
Chairman's Award is about the exhibition of the partnership between the school, the corporation and the community.
And I feel that my team showed that partnership as well as any other team. I'm sure past winning teams feel the same way about their team.
I'm assuming the judges were accknowledging the partnership that our team exhibited, and that is why we have been a Chairman's Award finalist for five years.
But I guess you have a right to your opinion. However, you might want to look at what each winner has done to deserve to win. The results might surprise you.
If you have any questions about any teams Chairman's Award submission, just ask. I'm sure they will be proud to tell you about the time and effort they put into to such a honorable task.
-Becky Allen

: Over the past 6 years when I've been done in Florida, right when they announce the culmination of FIRST: the Chairman's Award, I get a burning desire in my soul for someone deserving to win the Chairman's Award.

: However, for 5 of the past 6 years, I've been let down. Only once, Boston Edison/Plymouth North, did the Chairman's Award go to a team that didn't have the financial support of a small country.

: I know as well as everyone else that in order for FIRST to succeed, finacial backing is needed. BUT just because you put up the money, doesn't mean that you should be guaranteed an award each year regardless of robot performance.

: Once again, just an observation..

: Later
: Vinny

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23-06-2002, 23:30

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23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Vanessa Bessner.

Student on team #16, Baxter Bomb Squad, from Mountain Home High School and Baxter Healthcare Corporation.

Posted on 8/2/2000 3:28 PM MST

In Reply to: Is the Chairman's Award fixed? I believe so..... posted by Vinny Bushemi on 8/2/2000 2:47 PM MST:

Vinny~

I am a student from the Baxter Bomb Squad, the 2000 winner of the Chairman's Award. I just wanted to comment on your observation. Although my team is sponsored by Baxter Healthcare Corporation, we definitely do not have the FINANCIAL backing of a small army. After the 1998 season, Baxter had to cut funds and for the past two years the students of the Bomb Squad have raised our own money. We have and continue to work really hard at fundraising and trying to get our community involved with our team. We have done this through numerous presentations to various civic clubs, working booths at our county fair, holding a regional of our own, etc. . . Altough, Baxter does not fully fund our team, they are always there for us. The engineers from my team are the greatest and have become some of my closest friends, always trying to inspire us students in the true meaning of FIRST. So, even though it may not be financially, my team does have the support of a small army . . . an army of great engineers and a loving community to go along with it.

Sincerely,

Vanessa Bessner
Baxter Bomb Squad, #16

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23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Michael Martus.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Coach on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central H.S. and Delphi Automotives Systems.

Posted on 8/2/2000 3:28 PM MST

In Reply to: Is the Chairman's Award fixed? I believe so..... posted by Vinny Bushemi on 8/2/2000 2:47 PM MST:

Chief Delphi is very offended by these comments as I am sure are the other winners and finalists.

We have won the Chairman's Award in 1997 and were a Finalist this past year, 2000.

We have a year around FIRST Program and have been responsible for many of the FIRST Programs you enjoy today.

Example:

Where do you think the Lego League idea came from ... Our CADET program was the pioneer and model that demonstrated the importance of involving youth at a younger age..

Also what about the Chief Delphi Invitational that has exposed many schools to FIRST who are now FIRST Teams. Michigan is one of the fastest growing regions. Look at the quanity of teams.

We mentor many FIRST Teams ( Rookie Camp ) each year and take a proactive role in the development of FIRST and the KIT OF PARTS.... where do you think the rotating light idea came from last year?

And what about this web site, an innovator from the start pushing teams to be stronger and fostering communication.

Add to that our Summer Intern Program, 9th Grade Challenge, Scholarship Program and full year mentorship of our students by Delphi and you only have the tip of the iceberg! We have many other unique programs and activities.

Now here is the real problem! When they announce a Chairmans winner they only give a few words about all the great things they are doing. Our team has been in FIRST for 5 years and I can say in our opinion each Chairmans winner was very deserved of the honor.

Yes, there are many great teams that deserve this honor, yours included. However, with the limitation of 1 winner, many great teams do not get recognized for their great efforts.

Take a few moments and contact the winners and finalists. Ask them for a copy of their chairmans award to review. I am sure that they will share. See what they are doing. I think you will gain a new respect for the award winners.

I am sorry you are so frustrated with the system. If you have suggestions for change, the FIRST Team Forum is coming up soon. Present your solutitions there, it is your time to be heard.

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23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by "MOE".&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Coach on team #88, TJ2, from Bridgewater-Raynham Reg. High School and Johnson & Johnson .

Posted on 8/3/2000 6:43 AM MST

In Reply to: Re: Is the Chairman's Award fixed? I believe so, OFFENDED posted by Michael Martus on 8/2/2000 3:28 PM MST:

:
Hi to all
We at team 88 have worked very hard at what we do some
know us and some do not. But all teams in this FRIST program
bring different things. I thinkThe Chairmans Award is NOT fixed!!!!!!!
Well said Mike To ALL... FIRST IS FIRST... and lets keep it that way
See you all soon......

TEAM 88 TJ2 MOE

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23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Hector.

Other on team none from none.

Posted on 8/3/2000 8:50 AM MST

In Reply to: Re: Is the Chairman's Award fixed? I believe so, OFFENDED posted by Michael Martus on 8/2/2000 3:28 PM MST:

First of all I want to comment on the chairman's award, which I also think could be somewhat dominated. I believe that the teams with the big bucks have more resources and time to be able to do the extra things to brown nose first. The smaller teams that are working just as hard and just as many hours to do the great things for this program are being shafted. Maybe a way the chairman's award should be done is to have a chairman's award for the big boys and then another one for those of us less equipped with the resources it takes to be a chairman’s finalist. As far as being able to come up with ideas for such things as lights like you guys did (By the way those things could have been designed to be much more convenient) how come its only the people with lots of money and time that get to come up with things of that importance? I do have to say that things need to be analyzed and something should be done for next year!

THANKS
NANCEY

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23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Greg Mills.

Engineer on team #16, Baxter Bomb Squad, from Mountain Home and Baxter Healthcare.

Posted on 8/3/2000 9:34 AM MST

In Reply to: Is the Chairman's Award fixed? I believe so, YES posted by Hector on 8/3/2000 8:50 AM MST:

:
I think what we all take exception to is the word 'Fixed' The implications of that statement sre offensive. Do teams with resources have any advantage? Without a doubt! But should they be ashamed because of good fourtune? I think most would agree with a statement that 'Teams with money have a better chance of winning'. But not just because they have money but because they chose to use that money! Much has been made in the past about the support of GM & Delphi - should those students be penalized because they have the good fortune to be associated with far-sighted sponsors? Look at what has come from that (quickly off the top of my head) - teams such as #45, 47, 64, 65, 67, 68 etc.. I'm not talking about robots, I'm talking about teams. I remember those guys because of the teams. Money and resources do not by themselves build programs such as these. Don't diminish the work of these guys because they have more money. I am proud to have made friends on each of these teams (along with many others) and am proud for their accomplishments. I'm also sure that I would be proud of what others are doing if I had the chance to see it.

I have seen our team as one with an almost unlimited budget and I have seen our team not knowing if we had enough money to make it - guess what - we were the same folks with the same ideals.

Greg

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23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Mike Faticanti.

Coach on team #157, AZTECHS, from Assabet Valley R.T.H.S. and Simplex/EMC/Intel-Ma/Neles Controls/Jamesbury Inc.

Posted on 8/3/2000 5:05 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Is the Chairman's Award fixed? I believe so, OFFENDED posted by Michael Martus on 8/2/2000 3:28 PM MST:

WOW Mike
and a full time job and family too!!!!!! lol
J/K
Keep up the great work.

After reading all that I know our team made the right decision in not submitting for the Chairman’s Award. Time and resources well spent somewhere else.

PS
I wouldn’t have admitted the rotating light was my idea!!!!!!!!!!

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23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Joe Johnson.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 8/3/2000 9:11 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Is the Chairman's Award fixed? I believe so, OFFENDED posted by Mike Faticanti on 8/3/2000 5:05 PM MST:

Open Letter to All:

I stick by the lights.

Co-opertition FIRST would have been a totally unviewable mess without those lights.

I am serious. Can you imagine trying to figure out whether a robot is scoring to win or scoring to even the score in order to gain Q-points without those lights? It was bad enough as it was. Without the lights, only fanatical fans with photographic memories could have made any sense of the game at all.

While I don't think the lights had anything to do with being a finalist for the Chairman's Award, I DO take credit (or blame) for them with pride.

Joe J.

P.S. Speaking of the Chairman's Award & kit related things, I note a tone in a lot of folk's messages of 'Big Budget' teams getting all the breaks.

I don't deny that strong, reliable funding brings many advantages, but I would hope that those same folks will give us a break once in for working to help the whole FIRST community with only marginal benefit to our own team. If I start to list the ways, it is likely this will only lead to more snide remarks like those I have already read too often. BUT…

…The issue of improving the FIRST kit is too dear to my heart to let pass without some words. With the exception of the paid staff of FIRST and perhaps Tony, Dave & Bob from Innovation First, I dare say nobody has had a larger impact on the FIRST kit of materials than I have.

It pains me to have this work disparaged and dismissed as the result of some endless bucket of money that I am supposed to have access to in order to buy the hearts & minds of FIRST judges. Well… …it just isn't so.

At the risk of blowing my own horn too loudly, let me list the items and ideas that I have played a major role in getting into the FIRST kit:
Tape Drive Window Lift Motor & Mechanism
The larger capacity lead-acid batteries
Fore/Aft Seat Adjuster
Power Sliding Door Motors
Globe Motors
Fisher-Price Transmissions & Motors
Keyang Seat Adjuster Motors
Power Distribution Blocks
Gyro Chip
Operator Interface powered via robot battery power via the tether
Rotating Lights

Seriously, can anyone really imaging building a robot to play the games we've had these past few years without these kit components in the kit? Yet, even so, I doubt that any of the judges had anything but the vaguest idea of any of these efforts.

So… Next time you are smearing 'big budget' teams for buying their way to awards, I hope that you will at least concede at least some folks on some of these teams are directing some of their efforts to advancing FIRST with something less than selfish motives.

P.P.S. I encourage others to join the effort of improving the FIRST kit. If your sponsor makes cool stuff that would be great on a FIRST robot, ASK THEM TO DONATE! If you see stuff in trade magazines that every fashionable robot simply can't live without, CALL THE MANUFACTURER. All they can say is no. AND... ...all it takes is time & a stamp.

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23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Greg Mills.

Engineer on team #16, Baxter Bomb Squad, from Mountain Home and Baxter Healthcare.

Posted on 8/4/2000 6:21 AM MST

In Reply to: Taking credit for the lights & other things... posted by Joe Johnson on 8/3/2000 9:11 PM MST:

:
Many of us have been aware of the contributions of Delphi and the hard work you have put into FIRST. I'm glad this subject came up so more can be enlightened.

I liked the lights - I just wish there had been a weight concession.

Greg

PS - I tryed to get catheters donated once.........it just didn't work out

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23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Mike McIntyre.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Coach on team #1, Juggernaut, from Oakland Technical Center Northeast and 3 Dimensional Services.

Posted on 8/5/2000 10:52 PM MST

In Reply to: Taking credit for the lights & other things... posted by Joe Johnson on 8/3/2000 9:11 PM MST:

As a former member of that 'big bucks' team, Chief Delphi, there's one more point that needs to be made: while they may have more financial resources than most teams, they all still have to do their regular jobs. THEY ARE ALL VOLUNTEERS!!! The hundreds of hours that they EACH spend during the year does not get rewarded financially, nor do they get release time from their regular work. Engineers, teachers and students alike all put in incredible time and energy. I know that this is likewise true of the Bomb Squad, HOT, Huskie Brigade, Technokats...etc.; it's even true with my new team, the Juggernauts. Don't focus on how well-funded teams are, look at the incredible time and energy that so many FIRST teams invest in this amazing program.

Open Letter to All:

: I stick by the lights.

: Co-opertition FIRST would have been a totally unviewable mess without those lights.

: I am serious. Can you imagine trying to figure out whether a robot is scoring to win or scoring to even the score in order to gain Q-points without those lights? It was bad enough as it was. Without the lights, only fanatical fans with photographic memories could have made any sense of the game at all.

: While I don't think the lights had anything to do with being a finalist for the Chairman's Award, I DO take credit (or blame) for them with pride.

: Joe J.

: P.S. Speaking of the Chairman's Award & kit related things, I note a tone in a lot of folk's messages of 'Big Budget' teams getting all the breaks.

: I don't deny that strong, reliable funding brings many advantages, but I would hope that those same folks will give us a break once in for working to help the whole FIRST community with only marginal benefit to our own team. If I start to list the ways, it is likely this will only lead to more snide remarks like those I have already read too often. BUT…

: …The issue of improving the FIRST kit is too dear to my heart to let pass without some words. With the exception of the paid staff of FIRST and perhaps Tony, Dave & Bob from Innovation First, I dare say nobody has had a larger impact on the FIRST kit of materials than I have.

: It pains me to have this work disparaged and dismissed as the result of some endless bucket of money that I am supposed to have access to in order to buy the hearts & minds of FIRST judges. Well… …it just isn't so.

: At the risk of blowing my own horn too loudly, let me list the items and ideas that I have played a major role in getting into the FIRST kit:
: Tape Drive Window Lift Motor & Mechanism
: The larger capacity lead-acid batteries
: Fore/Aft Seat Adjuster
: Power Sliding Door Motors
: Globe Motors
: Fisher-Price Transmissions & Motors
: Keyang Seat Adjuster Motors
: Power Distribution Blocks
: Gyro Chip
: Operator Interface powered via robot battery power via the tether
: Rotating Lights

: Seriously, can anyone really imaging building a robot to play the games we've had these past few years without these kit components in the kit? Yet, even so, I doubt that any of the judges had anything but the vaguest idea of any of these efforts.

: So… Next time you are smearing 'big budget' teams for buying their way to awards, I hope that you will at least concede at least some folks on some of these teams are directing some of their efforts to advancing FIRST with something less than selfish motives.

: P.P.S. I encourage others to join the effort of improving the FIRST kit. If your sponsor makes cool stuff that would be great on a FIRST robot, ASK THEM TO DONATE! If you see stuff in trade magazines that every fashionable robot simply can't live without, CALL THE MANUFACTURER. All they can say is no. AND... ...all it takes is time & a stamp.

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23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Jon.

Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Mass Academy of Math and Science and Worcester Polytechnic Institute.

Posted on 8/2/2000 3:39 PM MST

In Reply to: Is the Chairman's Award fixed? I believe so..... posted by Vinny Bushemi on 8/2/2000 2:47 PM MST:

Your commentary, while 'interesting', is caustic and has no constructive merit of any sort.

I'm sorry that you do not trust that the judges know what they are doing when dealing with all of the entries.

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23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by colleen.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Coach on team #246, a FIRST-aholic, from John D. O'Byrant High School/Boston Latin Academy and NSTAR/Boston University/UTC/Raytheon/MassPEP.

Posted on 8/2/2000 3:57 PM MST

In Reply to: Is the Chairman's Award fixed? I believe so..... posted by Vinny Bushemi on 8/2/2000 2:47 PM MST:

I can't say that I can do either...

I will, with ALL HONESTY, that I many a time felt that some awards were given to teams because of who they were and were sponsored by, and not solely on their merits... I am by no means judging whether or not the teams that have won it 'deserved' it.. but I would be lying to say I haven't thought the same things as Vinny before..

From personal experience, I know and agree that Team #23, Boston Edison/PNTA deserved the award by far. And from my high interaction with many teams.. I will also say that I am excessively disappointed to have not seen Team #175 Buzz go away from Nationals with that clock yet... I know as well of the good things Delphi has done... I can't with much fairness say on the others..

That's why I never brought the subject up.. but since it is here... I can't say I disagree....

I've experienced for myself what it's like to be on a team with some $$ and a team who could barely afford to attend nationals.. with the former.. we had a fighting chance to win Chairman's.. on my team now, i really don't think we do.. and the money has made the difference.. sponsor involvement and support, both financially and with man-power, make an incredible difference in what kind of 'things' you can do that would put you in the running for chairman's award.. a bunch of high school and college kids from Boston don't have the opportunity, ability, or time to achieve some of the great things the well-funded and well-staffed teams have... Money gives you access to the tools needed not only to make a Chairman's Award that is presentable.. but to do the things worth writing about...

So, maybe all teams over the past 6 years have deserved the award.. I'm not about to agrue with any judges or anyone of you.. but as a general fact, I would definite state that funding gives teams a much better advantage to win.. that's of not fault of the team, companies that are big into FIRST and can spare much $$$ are great...

This subject has been broached before regarding robots and how some teams can 'afford' to build better bots.. and I think it's the same for the Chairman's... MONEY IS A KEY RESOURCE IN THIS GAME.. and some of us, not matter how much we try, just can't be up to 'caliber' because we don't have it..

If you look at it objectively.. i think Vinny's got a point...

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23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Vanessa Bessner.

Student on team #16, Baxter Bomb Squad, from Mountain Home High School and Baxter Healthcare Corporation.

Posted on 8/3/2000 7:41 AM MST

In Reply to: To agree or disagree is the question.. posted by colleen on 8/2/2000 3:57 PM MST:

Colleen~

Hi, once again this is Vanessa from the Bomb Squad. Like I said in an earlier response, we were the 2000 winner of the Chairman's Award. In your reply, you mentioned that with money you can make a Chairman's Award that is presentable and can afford to put worthwild stuff in it. I would have to disagree with you on this one. The Bomb Squad's Chairman's Award submission costs about $5 in total to make. It was simply a 3-ring binder and a power point presentation on a video that we spent hours upon hours making. It is not the submission that wins Chairman's Award, it is what goes into the submission that is important. And what goes into the submission by no means takes a lot of money either. Chairman's Award is presented to the team that exemplifies best the partnership between the students and engineers, school and corporate sponsor, team and communtity, etc....the team that exemplifies what FIRST is all about: the inspiration, not the competition. To do this you do not need alot of money.....example: Making presentations to civic clubs (cost: $0), teaching 2nd and 3rd graders about engineering and FIRST (cost:$0), mentoring Lego League teams and volunteering at the competition (cost:$0), etc. . .I could go on and on with this. I don't know how it has been for every other team that has won the Chairman's Award, but I felt that you should know how it is for ours. But this is an open forum, and anyone's opinion is welcome.

Vanessa

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23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Brian .

Student on team #56, Robbe Xtreme, from Bound Brook High School and Ethicon Inc..

Posted on 8/2/2000 9:51 PM MST

In Reply to: Is the Chairman's Award fixed? I believe so..... posted by Vinny Bushemi on 8/2/2000 2:47 PM MST:

Anyone who reads this,

Bare with me this is gonna be a a long one...

I come from a team that isn't financially fixed. This past fall our town was hit by a tropical storm (tropical storm Floyd), we also thank the teams who helped us fund raise extra money for the families who suffered in our town. Our team not only fundraised to get us to 2 regionals and the nationals, got ourselves great giveaways 2 different shirts fitted embroidered hats for everyone. We also submitted a chairmans award, but we were possibly over looked, for what reason i have no clue, but we reached out to our community to families who needed extra financial support. Granted we couldnt help all families we helped all we could. Our submittion possibly could have been over looked.

Anyway the purpose of this was to state that our company gives some financial support, but what our team mandates is that everyone on the team needed to raise a minimum of $450 a person to go to all competitions and the nationals. (the minimum changes each year depending on how much airline hotel and bus costs amount to) Some people on our team as did I reached 3-4 thousand dollars this year. Which helped send our team through regionals and the families in our community.

We have a somewhat supportive community, but as our team is trying to fund raise year round as i am trying now. We wrote to major corporations asking for money many of which have turned us down, but we still have tried.

In conclusion our team tries year round to include our community in our FIRST program and also tries to help community members.

Anyway the teams who have won and who still will win the chairmans award are deserving of the prestigous Chairman's award are definetly deserving and i applaude them.

Brian team 56

P.S. Congrats to Baxter Bomb Squad on winning this years chairmans award. You guys are definetly deserving.

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23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Greg Mills.

Engineer on team #16, Baxter Bomb Squad, from Mountain Home and Baxter Healthcare.

Posted on 8/3/2000 8:03 AM MST

In Reply to: Is the Chairman's Award fixed? I believe so..... posted by Vinny Bushemi on 8/2/2000 2:47 PM MST:

:
I am sorry that you have been disappointed alot by the decisions of the panel of Judges that FIRST assembles each year. I'm not sure where you got your information but each student on the Baxter Bomb Squad raised over $1,000 last year. That is possible because of the community support that we receive and that support is there because of the outreach programs that the team is involved in. I am very disappointed by the thoughts that our students have a free ride, it seems that the Judges that got to see all the submissions were perhaps a little better educated. We have had finance problems every year and at this very moment are at a crossroads about how to fund next year. A big part of my job has been behind the scenes dragging some money from different sources. Besides even if we have all the money in the world, what difference does it makes if we used it to further FIRST?

This does raise an important issue. Winning the Award was a great thrill and it felt very good that all of our hard work didn't go unnoticed, however, it was tempered somewhat by the knowledge that some of my good friends on other teams that were also deserving were not rewarded. How could the HOT team (#67) not have been a finalist? I believe that one winner is not good for the FIRST community and that the top five % or so should be named a winner. In Industry there are numerous awards (Malcom Baldridge Quality Award, etc) that go to companies that are deserving regardless of the number of winners. I am very excited that our team has been a finalist for five straight years but many people have the idea that we were losers those years and finally 'won'. The 2000 team was very deserving but the 1999 team was just as deserving and helped lay the groundwork that makes us the team that we are. I become very upset when someone says that our '96, '97, '98, & '99 teams were 'bridesmaids' just because another team out of the top five was named winner. I seriously believe that the current award needs to be changed. The negative side of alot of good teams being 'losers' does more harm and discourages what the award was intended to foster.

Vinny, while I disagree with you thoughts, thanks for bringing up the subject. I hope it has allowed the responses of two Bomb Squad students (Vannessa & Becky) to be heard.

Greg Mills
Proud to be a member of the Baxter Bomb Squad

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23-06-2002, 23:30

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23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Hector Bushemi.

Other on team none from none.

Posted on 8/4/2000 8:56 AM MST

In Reply to: 2nd opinion of HOT... posted by Joe Johnson on 8/3/2000 7:19 PM MST:

'For my money, I can't believe that HOT was not recognized for their great partnership. I know this team and the great work they do. How many other teams are also deserving of recognition but went home empty handed from the Nationals in 2000?'

I only have something to say this statement, My team has been in this program for 3 years and has never won an award. We have people that work hard for FIRST to come up with ideas about how to make more money for this program, we have an excellent partnership with our sponcers, and we have worked hard every year to win an award. So why is it that you think the hot team is more deserving to win an award at the nationals then our team after the Hot team had already won awards at regionals and even won a regional? I’m not saying that other teams where not more deserving of awards then us but a team shouldn't just win awards because of there size and money!

My Opinion!!!

Thanks Hector

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23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Greg Mills.

Engineer on team #16, Baxter Bomb Squad, from Mountain Home and Baxter Healthcare.

Posted on 8/4/2000 11:50 AM MST

In Reply to: Re: 2nd opinion of HOT...NOT FAIR posted by Hector Bushemi on 8/4/2000 8:56 AM MST:

:
Hector,

Nowhere did Joe or myself imply that HOT was more deserving than your team - they were used as an example of a great program that also got left out of the Chairmans Award this year. I don't even know your team nor what you have done and that is one problem - you don't know everything we did either unless you have a copy of the submission or have spent time talking to us. If your team is working hard and doing everything it can - then recognition is in order. I hope to see all teams receive what is due.

Greg

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23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Andy Baker.

Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 8/3/2000 8:52 AM MST

In Reply to: Is the Chairman's Award fixed? I believe so..... posted by Vinny Bushemi on 8/2/2000 2:47 PM MST:

WARNING: The previous message that you read can cause serious damage to your team.

Vinny and others like you, get over it. Your opinion of unfairness is a fact of life... get use to it.

I can say this from experience. I'll give you a bit of history.

In 1995, our team thought we had a darn good Chairman's Award submission. We thought that it was ours in the bag... no one else could be as good as us. Well, we didn't. We got to be a 'finalist', but that wasn't good enough for us. The leaders of our team were pretty bitter about the whole thing, and demonstrated the same opinions as Vinny has. They vented their opinions, and started some major trouble... kinda like a VIRUS within the team.

Fast-forward to 1998. After two years of below-par FIRST performance and a chronic case of a bad attitude, our engineering leadership had to be re-vamped. Our team went from 40 active students in 1995 to 20 semi-active students. FIRST was starting to be a pain to all involved... no fun and no good.

The old crew had to leave. The root of the badness was the terrible attitude and resentment from the 1995 Chairman's award. The engineering leadership was replaced with a new crew. The old crew was thanked and asked not to help out anymore. To this day, whenever this old crew is asked for advice, they always bring up how they were robbed in '95. I don't even talk to these people anymore about FIRST, 'cause I'm sick of hearing about it.

This old crew even had copies of the winning team's Ch. Award submission. I've got the 1995 copy of Nashua HS - Lockheed Sanders' submission, and they were very impressive that year and soundly beat us. Kudos to them and shame on us.

I'm telling you... get over it. I'm serious. Attitudes like this need not be around impressionable students. Bad attitudes breed like a virus and can destroy a team. This is not gracious professionalism, but more like self-pity, selfishness and whining.

While Vinny's comments do make some try to 'Fix the Chairman's Award', I suggest just moving on.

Andy B.

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23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by colleen.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Coach on team #246, a FIRST-aholic, from John D. O'Byrant High School/Boston Latin Academy and NSTAR/Boston University/UTC/Raytheon/MassPEP.

Posted on 8/3/2000 9:34 AM MST

In Reply to: WARNING: Virus Alert posted by Andy Baker on 8/3/2000 8:52 AM MST:

Wow...

..before I cast my opinion.. you know Andy that I hold you in high regard among those I know in the FIRST community.. as well as your team.. I truly feel that you are some of the best around..

.. But i have to say I think that was a bit harsh.. i cringed reading that message while Vinny's original post didn't even make me flinch..

.. Vinny very well may be an 'impressionable student' who has gathered this opinion from somewhere.. and from my other post, I've gathered this opinion from somewhere too.. I've had the chance to view many a Chairman's Award from spending time at FIRST (one day Kate and I actually took home many many of the awards and look through them completely and watched all the videos).. I don't think it wasn't out of the 'gracious professionalism' realm for him to say that he thinks big donations to FIRST sways the voting of some judges.. it's something that happens everyday.. in every company.. it's part of business.. YES ITS UNFAIR.. yes, life is unfair.. and yes people shouldn't have to deal with it..

But telling him to just be quiet about it is no way of dealing with it... just because people disagree.. and one opinion may be favored.. doesn't mean everyone else should just stop with theirs.. imagine if you ran a team where everyone just sucked it up and got over it when things didn't work.. everyone's robot would be built according to the loudest person's opinion, etc.. everyone's opinions matter.. that's why FIRST holds things like the Team Forum.. so people's voices can be heard... I KNOW Vinny isn't the only one who has felt this.. our Chairman's Award cost under $5 to make.. it was decent.. i was impressed by the creativity of it.. No one on our team took offense to not winning or being a finalist.. but we didn't just get over it either..

and my point... No, I wouldn't suggest to Vinny or anyone that they just get over it.. I would suggest they use great forums like this to express their opinions so they don't keept their feelings bottled up inside and develop a bitter taste in their mouth about FIRST because they feel it is run by the 'big boys' and what they think doesn't matter... even having a loud voice in the FIRST community.. i truly feel that now.. that each year money runs this show more and more.. and it's harder and harder for the little guys to enjoy and be recognized as doing things of importance.. THAT IS NOT SAYING THE TEAMS WITH MONEY OR DO GOOD ARE WRONG AND THAT IS NOT TO OFFEND ANYONE.. it is truly truly how i feel.. I too am glad Vinny brought up the discussion...

Our team had zilch for resources this year.. for robot, chairman's, spirit, travel.. anything.. when our robot didn't drive.. we didn't tell our kids to get over it.. we discussed it.. discussed the options.. and were just psyched that our robot was always out on the field as were we.. giving it our all.. when we thought we were a major contender for the Animation Award and we scored not as well as we liked.. we didn't get over it.. we discussed it.. discussed what may have happened.. why.. how we could do better.. and the fact that we thought we had a great animation and we were proud of it.. otherwise.. that unfairness maybe would have just taken over our team like a virus and there would be no submission from 246 in the years to follow because it just wouldn't be worth it if our best wasn't good enough..

yes, it sucks to lose.. but what we have to teach these 'impressionable students' is that life is unfair, sure.. but luckily- FIRST is a program where THERE ARE NO LOSERS... you are a winner for doing your best.. you can be upset.. as long as you realize that making it as far as you do is an accomplishment in itself.. that's what we taught our kids.. and i think we could all learn a little about that..

Congrats to all those who 'win'... but moreso.. congrats to everyone who trys... you deserve the credit more than anyone..

This is not gracious professionalism, but more like self-pity, selfishness and whining.

: While Vinny's comments do make some try to 'Fix the Chairman's Award', I suggest just moving on.

: Andy B.

archiver

23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Andy Baker.

Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 8/3/2000 10:25 AM MST

In Reply to: eeeeeek posted by colleen on 8/3/2000 9:34 AM MST:

OK, good points Colleen.

I'll define what I mean a bit more. I think that we are on the same page here... this goes in line with winners being the people who try and not just the award winners.

I don't mean move on and not try. By all means, try your butt off... we sure have. We thought again in 1999 that we had a darn good Chairman's Award entry. But we didn't win... we 'moved on' by not dwelling on the negatives. We didn't worry about not winning it like we did in '95.

Our problem in 1995-97 was that we couldn't move on from our perceived 'loss' from 1995. The fact that our team dwelled on the negative for sooooooo long just about crippled us... that's my point. We never 'moved on' from the negative aspect that our team 'lost' the award. We didn't look at being a finalst as a win... or even just having a good team and Ch. Award submission as a win.

You're right, people should not be told to be quiet and shutup, but rather be positive... 'move on' from the negative. Ask any student on our team.... they cannot simply complain and whine about negatives... they gotta have at least a suggestion or input on how to fix a problem. I don't listen to them until they have at least SOMETHING positive or constructive to say.

Vinny's original message gave his opinion about his perception of the prolem. It was all negative and didn't contain any positive solutions or suggestions. He would get more respect from me and others if he input on how to fix the problem (like the 'Dean's list' and others). I support the fact that people point out FIRST's problems (I have), but they MUST accompany their negative comments with positive suggestions and constructive support.

Andy B.

archiver

23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Michael Martus.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Coach on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central H.S. and Delphi Automotives Systems.

Posted on 8/3/2000 8:07 PM MST

In Reply to: No need to eeeek... I'll define 'move on' better. posted by Andy Baker on 8/3/2000 10:25 AM MST:

Hey! you revived my Idea of the 'Deans List', anyone interested in knowing what the idea is?

If so I will start a new thread and explain.

archiver

23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Mike Gray.

Engineer on team HOT from Huron Valley Schools sponsored by GM Milford Proving Ground.

Posted on 8/3/2000 12:08 PM MST

In Reply to: Is the Chairman's Award fixed? I believe so..... posted by Vinny Bushemi on 8/2/2000 2:47 PM MST:

Your feelings are understandable, many seem to have them. Maybe there is a cure.

If your goal is to win awards, you will be disappointed. Focus instead on giving with
no expectation of repayment. You will be rewarded every time, individually and collectively.

Students are in a unique position to give. Advertise the competition experience as a positive one.
Ask questions of teachers and engineers. Show them that you want to learn more, and have fun doing it.
These 'robots' are complex electro-mechanical systems. As such, they present an opportunity to learn many principles. Take advantage of what the engineers and teachers offer you. They will be rewarded, and so will you.

Sounds like you've done things like these. The point is to be satisfied with a job well done, and you may be pleasantly surprised with an award if you document your efforts. Just don't make a trophy your goal.

Just my thoughts.

archiver

23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Lora Knepper.

Student on team in limbo from in limbo sponsored by in limbo.

Posted on 8/3/2000 7:27 PM MST

In Reply to: A thought or two... posted by Mike Gray on 8/3/2000 12:08 PM MST:

I totally agree with you on this one Mike. Sure, it's a competition, but to simply know you did the best you could is in my opinion much more satisfying then awards. (Though yes, getting them is very nice) I know my fondest memories of FIRST are mostly not even about the competition itself, but the people I've worked with. When I see people getting too wrapped up in the 'winning' aspect, I often see them lose sight of why FIRST was founded to begin with....to inspire.
But then, that's just my feelings...

Lora Knepper

archiver

23-06-2002, 23:30

Posted by Ryan Shanley.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Student on team #191, The X-Cats, from Joseph C. Wilson Magnet High School and Xerox.

Posted on 8/3/2000 12:57 PM MST

In Reply to: Is the Chairman's Award fixed? I believe so..... posted by Vinny Bushemi on 8/2/2000 2:47 PM MST:

I agree with you whole-heartedly, Mike. Though I do occasionally see flaws in the award system, I do not think the teams that won the Chairman's Award (as well as other awards) were not deserving of the recognition: my only complaint would have to be that other teams that also deserved such recognition could not share the spotlight.

On the other hand, I do hate to see largely sponsored teams and/or teams in which the engineers take over all responsibilities, because often the result is less involved students. This isn't to say that there aren't teams with big sponsors who still work their butts off, so don't get me wrong.

I would like to give a sincere congratualation to the Bomb Squad, and other previous winners. But winning awards doesn't mean your team is the best, especially as the judges have more and more teams to choose from each year, so I don't think anyone should put too much worry into it.

just my two cents,
Ryan Shanley

archiver

23-06-2002, 23:31

Posted by Andy Grady.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Other on team in limbo from in limbo sponsored by in limbo.

Posted on 8/3/2000 2:47 PM MST

In Reply to: Is the Chairman's Award fixed? I believe so..... posted by Vinny Bushemi on 8/2/2000 2:47 PM MST:

While Vinnie's comments may seem a bit harsh, he does have somewhat of a valid point hidden in his ramblings. Im not saying that the teams who have won the chairmans award in the past are undeserving, however I do feel that if you have a well known name in this competition, or give money, your odds definatly do increase. Sadly enough for this reason I have given up all care for the chairmans award, and while I was with team 42 we didn't even make an effort to win this award. Personally I would rather my team win the Motorola Quality Award, or the Spirit Award, or my major goal which is the national championship. Now I know this competition is not about the awards, or recognition as team. However, sometimes people can be more inspired when they have something to show for it. For instance after winning the Spirit award this year the freshman on my team (who were very quiet all year long) sprang to life and were all of the sudden very excited about next year. Sadly, hoewever, I saw the chairmans award as an impossible goal for my team because quite simply we did not have a name in this competition. However the Chrysler Team spirit award, I did feel that we could win because frankly you cannot ignore something that everyone sees. Dont get me wrong, the chairmans award is an excelent award for teams to strive for, because whether you win it or not being involved in the production of the award helps you realize exactly how great this competition is especially within your own team, which does actually promote the actual goal of first win or lose. In the end we are all winners reguardless of who wins any award, and we can't loose sight of that.
Cya,
Andy Grady

archiver

23-06-2002, 23:31

Posted by Becky Allen.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Student on team #16, Baxter Bomb Squad, from Mountain Home High School and Baxter Healthcare.

Posted on 8/3/2000 3:19 PM MST

In Reply to: Once again, the name game posted by Andy Grady on 8/3/2000 2:47 PM MST:

I agree with you that winning the Motorola Quality Award is also an unbelievable honor. However, I was just curious, how many Motorola Quality Award winners have been Chairman's finalists or winners? It might be an interesting stat to look up.
I think the reason you think Chairman's Award is associated with a name. Is because it is. Chairman's Award is about capturing the spirt of FIRST, in every way.
So if a team is overall well known for something, there must be a reason. Am I wrong?
Becky

: While Vinnie's comments may seem a bit harsh, he does have somewhat of a valid point hidden in his ramblings. Im not saying that the teams who have won the chairmans award in the past are undeserving, however I do feel that if you have a well known name in this competition, or give money, your odds definatly do increase. Sadly enough for this reason I have given up all care for the chairmans award, and while I was with team 42 we didn't even make an effort to win this award. Personally I would rather my team win the Motorola Quality Award, or the Spirit Award, or my major goal which is the national championship. Now I know this competition is not about the awards, or recognition as team. However, sometimes people can be more inspired when they have something to show for it. For instance after winning the Spirit award this year the freshman on my team (who were very quiet all year long) sprang to life and were all of the sudden very excited about next year. Sadly, hoewever, I saw the chairmans award as an impossible goal for my team because quite simply we did not have a name in this competition. However the Chrysler Team spirit award, I did feel that we could win because frankly you cannot ignore something that everyone sees. Dont get me wrong, the chairmans award is an excelent award for teams to strive for, because whether you win it or not being involved in the production of the award helps you realize exactly how great this competition is especially within your own team, which does actually promote the actual goal of first win or lose. In the end we are all winners reguardless of who wins any award, and we can't loose sight of that.
: Cya,
: Andy Grady

archiver

23-06-2002, 23:31

Posted by Aidan Browne, PhD.

Engineer on team #175, Buzz Robotics, from Enrico Fermi and Hamilton Sundstrand Space Systems Intl.

Posted on 8/3/2000 10:04 PM MST

In Reply to: Is the Chairman's Award fixed? I believe so..... posted by Vinny Bushemi on 8/2/2000 2:47 PM MST:

I encourage everyone to read FIRST's statement of the purpose of the Chairman's Award. It may help to put many of your comments in perspective.

(I took this from the FIRST website, the link to the original page is included below.)

================================================== ====

THE CHAIRMAN’S AWARD

FIRST’s aim, in its broadest sense, is to transform the culture of the United States: to restore the sense of excitement, awe, respect and honor that was once attached to science and technology, and especially to imbue the younger generation with an appreciation of the rewards, including career opportunities, that pursuing an enriched understanding of science and technology can bring.

The Chairman’s Award was created to keep the central focus of the FIRST Competition on that ultimate goal. It remains FIRST’s most prestigious award.

The competition in the arena is intensely exciting. The competitive spirit draws the entire event together. In honoring the team that wins the contest itself, we celebrate the extraordinary drive and skill that brought that victory.The criteria for the Chairman’s Award, however, are different… precisely because the goals of FIRST go beyond scoring points.

JUDGING CRITERIA:

There is no single best way to win the Chairman’s Award. Many factors come into play. It represents the spirit of FIRST, and the hopes of FIRST. It goes to a team that in the judges’ estimation surpassingly represents a model for other teams and embodies the goals and purpose of FIRST.

The quality of your teamwork, both human and professional – of your partnership – is a key ingredient. So, too, is the intensity of the learning experience team members both give and receive. Because our target audience is unlimited – the entire school, the larger community and, through the mass media, the nation – the ways in which a team communicates its excitement and opens the eyes of others is also a major factor.

Among the things the judges will be looking for are concrete examples of the interactions between students and engineers, and of the spirit the shared experience developed; demonstrations of how you have wakened others in your school, your community or elsewhere to the thrill and the fun of engineering, and to FIRST itself as a vehicle for the cultural transformation it seeks to achieve; innovative ways you have devised to spread FIRST’s message. Use your own imagination in helping the judges understand how your team should be an example for future teams.

================================================== =====