QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!!

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Posted by Andy Grady.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Other on team in limbo from in limbo sponsored by in limbo.

Posted on 8/20/2000 11:03 AM MST



Hi all, time once again for the question of the week:

Question 8/20/00: Do you think that having water as a playing field would be a good idea?

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Posted by Brian .

Student on team #56, Robbe Xtreme, from Bound Brook High School and Ethicon Inc..

Posted on 8/20/2000 11:16 AM MST


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Andy Grady on 8/20/2000 11:03 AM MST:



My outake on this on i can sum up in a few words

water+electricity=bad

Brian

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Posted by Steve Prairie.

Student on team #173, RAGE, from Rockville High School /East Hartford High School and UTRC.

Posted on 8/20/2000 12:56 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Brian on 8/20/2000 11:16 AM MST:



how many fire codes do you think we can break?

-Steve

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Posted by Lora Knepper.

Other on team #419, Rambots, from UMass Boston / BC High and NASA, Mathsoft, Solidworks, Analog Devices.

Posted on 8/20/2000 6:10 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!! posted by Steve Prairie on 8/20/2000 12:56 PM MST:



hehe..like the graphic Steve!

Lora

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Posted by Lora Knepper.

Other on team #419, Rambots, from UMass Boston / BC High and NASA, Mathsoft, Solidworks, Analog Devices.

Posted on 8/20/2000 6:10 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!! posted by Steve Prairie on 8/20/2000 12:56 PM MST:



hehe..like the graphic Steve!

Lora

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Posted by colleen.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #246, Blue Light Special, from John D. O'Byrant High School/Boston Latin Academy and NSTAR/Boston University/UTC/Raytheon/MassPEP.

Posted on 8/20/2000 2:43 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Brian on 8/20/2000 11:16 AM MST:



: My outake on this on i can sum up in a few words

: water+electricity=bad

: Brian

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Posted by Amy .

Student on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High and NYPRO.

Posted on 8/20/2000 11:48 AM MST


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Andy Grady on 8/20/2000 11:03 AM MST:



Water as a playing field would definitely be interesting. There might be problems with keeping the water level constant because aggressive play might causing some splashing...I think that FIRST could do it though...the old carpet is great, but water would be a tough new challenge.

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Posted by David Kelly.

Student on team #234, Cyber Blue, from Perry Meridian H. S. and NASA Langley/ Rolls-Royce.

Posted on 8/20/2000 12:22 PM MST


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Andy Grady on 8/20/2000 11:03 AM MST:



Oh Yeah!

Driving robots in or under water would be the ultimate competition. I have been wishing for a competition involving water ever since I have been on a FIRST team.

David Kelly
Team 234

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Posted by Michael Martus.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central H.S. and Delphi Automotives Systems.

Posted on 8/20/2000 1:03 PM MST


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Andy Grady on 8/20/2000 11:03 AM MST:




I think the swim team would get a little miffed at having to share the pool.

Diving Robots, that would make a splash with the media.

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Posted by Matt Leese.

Student on team #7 from Parkville High School and NASA, Black & Decker, AAI, Raytheon.

Posted on 8/20/2000 3:13 PM MST


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Andy Grady on 8/20/2000 11:03 AM MST:



First they want me to wire everything and have it work correctly and not short. Now they want me to waterproof it too. What next? EMP shielding? Except for the fact that our robots are electrically powered, I would think that water would be a good idea. Otherwise, no, I have enough trouble already. :)

Matt

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Posted by Splash.

Student on team #53, Team Inferno, from Eleanor Roosevelt High School and NASA GSFC.

Posted on 8/20/2000 3:42 PM MST


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Andy Grady on 8/20/2000 11:03 AM MST:



: Question 8/20/00: Do you think that having water as a playing field would be a good idea?

I think it would be fun. But in 6 weeks I don't think many teams could field a competitive robot, much less test the one they have. Getting the robot to remain stable while trying to score would be difficult. And scoring would be low because the robots could not move as fast in water.

But if FIRST could figure out an appropriate challenge, I'd be in favor of it.

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Posted by Lora Knepper.

Other on team #419, Rambots, from UMass Boston / BC High and NASA, Mathsoft, Solidworks, Analog Devices.

Posted on 8/20/2000 6:12 PM MST


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Andy Grady on 8/20/2000 11:03 AM MST:



In theory, yes, I like the challenge...in practice...eeek! Trying to waterproof everything gives me a large headache! I have to agree with Matt on this one!

Lora

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Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 8/20/2000 6:34 PM MST


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Andy Grady on 8/20/2000 11:03 AM MST:



I am pretty sure that my hat is safe on this one:

I will eat my hat if FIRST will ever goes to a water based field.

Joe J.

P.S. All bets are off if FIRST forms that pro-league I am always lobbying for ;-) Although I wouldn't mind eating hat stew every now and again if it helped bring about a pro FIRST league.

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Posted by colleen.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #246, Blue Light Special, from John D. O'Byrant High School/Boston Latin Academy and NSTAR/Boston University/UTC/Raytheon/MassPEP.

Posted on 8/20/2000 9:25 PM MST


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Andy Grady on 8/20/2000 11:03 AM MST:



We all no how to play on carpet.. on little square and hexagon fields... i would hate to say it's getting a little predictable.. as are we...

So why not make a competition where past experience doesn't really matter.. where the master crab of the Delphi may not be applicable, the speed of Buzz would need to happen on something other than wheels.. where Assabet would be challenged to put out a quality bot (personally, i think 157 has quality robots down to a science!)

Maybe water's a bit drastic for 2001... or maybe it's not.. I'm ready for the challenge.. I'm ready to have to convert the wheelchair wheels into propellers.. i'm ready for it to be HARD to score.. HARD to play the game... not to say that the game's we play are easy, but so much of it we already know how to do (half of us could build everything except the pickup device before the six weeks.. and the only reason we couldn't put in pickup is cause we wouldn't know the size of what we're grabbing)...

And who are we as FIRSTers to say it won't work, it can't happen, and we don't want to have to learn how to make it happen!!... Motorboats work... i haven't a clue about waterproofing electronics.. but heck, i think it would be fun to learn.. it's been a few years since FIRST has made me learn something new.. or look at something different...

Think of Maize Craze.. a corn bed... i bet people thought that was 'impossible'.. couldn't happen.. was too hard.. etc... but 28 teams didn't see it as such.. heck, on my old team, they built their robot after a kid who worked on a golf course said 'hey, you know those little trucks they drive around to pick-up the golf balls.. hey maybe we could use something like that..'...when's the last time many of us had to think like that??

I'm not meaning to offend anyone.. and maybe i've trailed off the subject a bit.. but there isn't anyone who can't say the game hasn't become a bit predictable.. we know we'll need wheels, need to lift something.. etc... i would LOOOOOVE to see a major change in the game.. water, corn, marbles, sand.. whatever! Don't say it's too hard.. that's never an excuse.. and don't say it wouldn't be fair to the rookies, because that is the only way to make the game even slightly fair.. the less FIRST changes, the less we have to change our previous year's robot.. the more advantage any multi-year team has...

Let's completely revamp the game... after 5 years, i'm being to yawn a bit :-)

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Posted by Eric Rasmussen.

Engineer from FIRST.

Posted on 8/26/2000 8:58 PM MST


In Reply to: Since when are we not up for the challenge??? posted by colleen on 8/20/2000 9:25 PM MST:



: Think of Maize Craze.. a corn bed... i bet people thought that was 'impossible'.. couldn't happen.. was too hard.. etc... but 28 teams didn't see it as such.. heck, on my old team, they built their robot after a kid who worked on a golf course said 'hey, you know those little trucks they drive around to pick-up the golf balls.. hey maybe we could use something like that..'...when's the last time many of us had to think like that??

Note: Don't take the following as a commentary on the future of FIRST games, just a comment about the past.

I competed that year and the corn was _very_ difficult to deal with. In fact, it took us about 3 weeks and a ton of experimenting to design a good drive train. Corn gets between chains and sprockets and either wedges them or causes the chain to slip off. The same thing goes for pulleys and belts. Two-wheel drive is not an option because of the resistance of the corn. Normal and really wide wheels just sink into the corn and spin, like a car stuck in mud or snow. Wide treads have the same problems as pulleys and belts plus they make it really hard to turn. The first drive system we developed that actually worked was a set of four 'paddle wheels' that would churn through the corn like the paddles on a riverboat.

We ended up designing tall thin tires that cut through the corn to the plywood below, had rubber tubes around the perimiter for traction (tires). We powered the front wheels from the motors and the rear by a narrow, round belt in a wide grooved pulley which allowed the corn to flow around the belt without lifting it out of the groove.

Other teams that I remember: Nypro had a cool design with what appeared to be about 20 wheels on 4 axles that not only propelled the robot but also picked up the balls, and the Technocats had a really light and fast robot that ran around on top of the corn with spikey aluminum spokes that approximated the shape of wheels.

All in all, it was very satisfying to come up with something that worked well, and very interesting to see all the different designs. However, many teams struggled and never came up with a good solution. Also, the corn had to be raked into a smooth state before every match, which slowed things down.

One amusing benefit to the corn was that a Physics professor who helped on the team got to take home all the corn from our practice field once the competition was over and feed it to chickens he kept on his property.

-Eric

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Posted by Andy Baker.

Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 8/29/2000 7:11 AM MST


In Reply to: Children of the Corn posted by Eric Rasmussen on 8/26/2000 8:58 PM MST:



: Think of Maize Craze..

: and the Technocats had a really light and fast robot that ran around on top of the corn with spikey : aluminum spokes that approximated the shape of wheels.

My boss was the designer of our Maize Craze machine... the 'Cornvette'. He reminds me at least once a year of things like...

'we barely had enough power to drive ONE motor... let alone 12!'
'you guys have it easy with that carpet... I tell ya that CORN was difficult stuff!'
'and then we had to deal with this TETHER... oooh, that was a pain!'
'and we didn't even get our team together until 2 weeks into the competition!'
'and the playing field... no matter how you turned, you were always driving UPHILL!'

OK, maybe I'm fibbing on the last one, but he never lets a season pass without telling us how difficult the first year was. I just remind him... It's been almost 10 years... and he's getting old!

Andy B.

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Posted by Eric Rasmussen.

Engineer from FIRST.

Posted on 9/2/2000 9:04 PM MST


In Reply to: 'Good ol' Days' posted by Andy Baker on 8/29/2000 7:11 AM MST:



: 'and we didn't even get our team together until 2 weeks into the competition!'

Wow. I thought my team was the only one who started two weeks late... I know that my college president signed up for a team and then never actually organized anything until two weeks into the period. I got drafted into it when Dean gave him a call to remind him to participate and he had to whip together a team quickly.

: It's been almost 10 years... and he's getting old!

So what are you saying? ;)

-Eric

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Posted by Erin.

Student on team #1, The Juggernauts, from Oakland Technical Center-Northeast Campus and 3-Dimensional Services.

Posted on 8/20/2000 11:10 PM MST


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Andy Grady on 8/20/2000 11:03 AM MST:



everyone does. as with the age-old story of every guy wanting to date the new girl in school, it is something about the whole 'mystery' of it that we want to solve. I just want to make a hovercraft. neech.

-erin

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Posted by Andy Grady.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Other on team in limbo from in limbo sponsored by in limbo.

Posted on 8/21/2000 8:04 AM MST


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Andy Grady on 8/20/2000 11:03 AM MST:



OK, call me old fashioned, but im perfectly happy with the rug we have been using for the past 8 years. And here are my reasons...

1. Something tells me that building the playing field to practice on would be difficult and expensive, let lone a pain to dispose of.

2. How much can you do with a boat before it sinks. Im sorry, maybe its just lack of faith and engineering experience, but I just don't feel that we could put too much on a floating robot without it sinking (thinking on a larger scale here because im sure FIRST wants the crowd to be able to see whats goin on)

3. Waterproofing...nuf said

Though I do think that adding water to the game would create a clean slate for teams, I just think it would be too difficult to accomplish especially for rookie teams.

peace out,
Andy Grady

p.s. One thing I wouldn't mind that has something to do with fluid...Hidrolics =) Anyone with me here?

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Posted by Lora Knepper.

Other on team #419, Rambots, from UMass Boston / BC High and NASA, Mathsoft, Solidworks, Analog Devices.

Posted on 8/21/2000 3:58 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Andy Grady on 8/21/2000 8:04 AM MST:



Hydrolics...hmmm, now that sounds like an interesting idea Andy. We already have pnumatics, why not throw another aspect in there?

Lora

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Posted by Eric Rasmussen.

Engineer from FIRST.

Posted on 8/26/2000 9:22 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Andy Grady on 8/21/2000 8:04 AM MST:



: 2. How much can you do with a boat before it sinks. Im sorry, maybe its just lack of faith and engineering experience, but I just don't feel that we could put too much on a floating robot without it sinking (thinking on a larger scale here because im sure FIRST wants the crowd to be able to see whats goin on)

You need to start thinking 'outside the box'. Sure, a boat could get swamped and sink, but what about an inflatable raft? Open-topped canoes are regularly used on whitewater rivers by adding large, inflated 'bags' (don't know the technical term) at the front and back, thus preventing the majority of the volume inside of the canoe from being flooded if water splashes in. Just imagine how much buoyancy you could get from submerging a single 14' diameter inflated ball.

-Eric

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Posted by Jason Iannuzzi.

Engineer on team #11, Marauders, from Mt. Olive HS. and BASF, Rame Hart, CCM.

Posted on 8/21/2000 1:57 PM MST


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Andy Grady on 8/20/2000 11:03 AM MST:



A few years ago, I was helping out with the committee that brought the Mid-Atlantic Regional to NJ, and I had a chance to speak with a few of the FIRST people about the future.

I remember more than one person mention that the idea of an event in the water was being considered.

Of course, they were also thinking of having students actually sit 'in' the robots (not in the water year though), and we know that's not going to happen.

Either way, at least we know that the idea has crossed their minds.

My opinion...not gonna happen. It's hard enough to find an area large enough to build a normal playing field...now we'd have to find an indoor swimming pool that didn't mind giving up countless hours of the busy season so a bunch of people could throw greasy electrical machines in them. Now way.

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Posted by Kyle Huang.

Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Gunn High School and Sun Microsystems, Nasa/Ames and Xerox PARC.

Posted on 8/22/2000 2:14 AM MST


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Andy Grady on 8/20/2000 11:03 AM MST:



Water competition eh?
take a look at this URL. it's another pre-existing robotics competition, called
AUVSI: Autonomous Underwater Vehicle Competition.
it's held in Disney World as well, however this competition look considerably
more complex than FIRST is currently.
But anyways, there are many areas to hold a water-based at Disney World.
Just think of all the lakes, etc. i believe the AUVSI nationals are held in the
water at the Coronado Springs resort.

PS, their webserver is very unreliable, so maybe try this site instead:
http://web.mit.edu/rec/orca/orca.html
this site is MITs AUVSI team site

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Posted by Matt Leese.

Student on team #7 from Parkville High School and NASA, Black & Decker, AAI, Raytheon.

Posted on 8/22/2000 7:33 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Kyle Huang on 8/22/2000 2:14 AM MST:



I think you might be a little confused here. AUVSI is the Automated Unmanned Vehicle Systems International. My team actually took our robot to show off at their convention when it was in Baltimore. I believe the Autonomous Underwater Vehicel Competition is sponsored by AUVSI (can't really tell as all I can reach is the MIT site). AUVSI is really mostly military contractors who specialize in unmanned systems. A lot of the big names like Lockheed, Northrop Grumman, and Raytheon are all there among others. I do know that there weren't any exhibits on this competition at the convention and people did seem very impressed by FIRST.

Matt

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Posted by Mike A..

Student on team #56, RobbeXtreme, from Bound Brook High School and Ethicon.

Posted on 8/23/2000 1:49 PM MST


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Andy Grady on 8/20/2000 11:03 AM MST:



I think that having competition in a tank of water would be a sweet idea. It would definetly make it very challangeing to both students and engineers! But i do see sometime in the next couple of years we would have this challange.

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Posted by Matt Ryan.

Student on team #69, HYPER, from Quincy Public Schools and Gillette.

Posted on 8/23/2000 4:32 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Mike A. on 8/23/2000 1:49 PM MST:



It is a good idea, but the only problem with it is if a robot breaks down, it probably sink, and there goes six weeks of hard work down the drain in the blink of an eye. And many robots break down one time or another (hint: ours broke down a lot)

-=Freshman (aka Matt Ryan, Team 69 Intelligence)=-

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Posted by Eric Rasmussen.

Engineer from FIRST.

Posted on 8/26/2000 9:10 PM MST


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Andy Grady on 8/20/2000 11:03 AM MST:



: Hi all, time once again for the question of the week:

: Question 8/20/00: Do you think that having water as a playing field would be a good idea?

Do you think competing against the Coast Guard Academy and Naval Undersea Warfare Center teams in a water-based competition is a good idea? ;)

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Posted by Lora Knepper.

Other on team #419, Rambots, from UMass Boston / BC High and NASA, Mathsoft, Solidworks, Analog Devices.

Posted on 8/26/2000 11:21 PM MST


In Reply to: Teams with unfair advantages posted by Eric Rasmussen on 8/26/2000 9:10 PM MST:



: : Hi all, time once again for the question of the week:

: : Question 8/20/00: Do you think that having water as a playing field would be a good idea?

: Do you think competing against the Coast Guard Academy and Naval Undersea Warfare Center teams in a water-based competition is a good idea? ;)