top ten best teams in FIRST

[Justin Shelley]

I'm pretty new to FIRST and i was wondering what teams should be included in a list of the top ten best teams in FIRST for all time.:D

[Jon Stratis]

It's a few more than 10... But check out the FRC Hall of Fame (http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/first-history#frc_winners)

[Orion.DeYoe]

I'm pretty new to FIRST and i was wondering what teams should be included in a list of the top ten best teams in FIRST for all time.:D

Hmmm that's a tough one. 1114 is definitely 1st or close to it. 254 is good. 111, 2056, 233 are good. You could throw in 25, 180, and 16 (being world champions and all). Teams beyond that I'm not sure. I know a lot of good teams, but I don't know if they're in the top 10 or not. I guess it would depend on what makes a team "good"/"best".

EDIT: How could I forget 341?

[CalTran]

Hmmm that's a tough one. 1114 is definitely 1st or close to it. 254 is good. 111, 2056, 233 are good. You could throw in 25, 180, and 16 (being world champions and all). Teams beyond that I'm not sure. I know a lot of good teams, but I don't know if they're in the top 10 or not. I guess it would depend on what makes a team "good"/"best".


How on earth did you manage to miss 67? 1717? 469? 217? Point is, there is really not a specific list of "top teams in FIRST". It varies year to year, and there's much too many to list. Go look up FRC Top 25 or search through the forums for Top Teams by Decade or by number block. Can't remember which.

[vinnie]

What CalTran said is good

Here's what I would think, but these are not necessarily the top 10 teams, they consistently build great robots
There's definitely more than 10 though
254
1114
971
973
330
111
1717
16
67
71

[rsegrest]

Robonauts and Robowranglers would be two of my top ten...

[Basel A]

Looking at robot histories, the only "locks" for such a list would be 71 and 67, who have won more Championships than anyone else. After that, there's a large number of teams in the mix, including 1114, 254, 16, 469, 233, 47/51, 111, 217, and many others.

[BJC]

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2383

I think this is what you're looking for.
Regards, Bryan

[itsjustmrb]

I guess the follow up question would be...who are the top 10 teams numbered 2056 or higher, with less than 10 years experience? Not including sister teams or spin off's from other teams.

[Anupam Goli]

The FRC Hall of Fame is the most definite list that you are looking for. From there, there are far too many teams that are "top ten" worthy. Pretty much all elite tier teams are even with each other (though i like to think that 67 is on a whole new level by themselves).

[Taylor]

For all time?
47, 67, 71, 111, 118, 254, 341, 365, 1114, 2056.
Unfortunately, not all these teams currently exist.

2 MI, 1 IL, 1 IN, 1 TX, 1 CA, 1 PA, 1 DE, 1 NY, 2 ONT.

[Racer26]

Looking at robot histories, the only "locks" for such a list would be 71 and 67, who have won more Championships than anyone else. After that, there's a large number of teams in the mix, including 1114, 254, 16, 469, 233, 47/51, 111, 217, and many others.

I think this just highlights the problem with trying to create such a list. Several of the lists on this page manage to ignore 2056, who have won 14 consecutive regionals, beginning with their double regional winning debut in 2007, right up to their double membership in the triple regional club in 2011 and 2012. Not to mention 2 trips to Einstein, among other achievements.

There is a great deal of consensus though, that there exists a group of teams who are perennial powerhouses. 16, 25, 47/51/65, 67, 71, 111, 118, 148, 188, 217, 233, 254, 341, 469, 610, 1114, 1625, 1717, 2056, 2337, and more frequently end up on such lists.

[lemiant]

I'd argue that the very best teams at the moment are: 67, 111 & 1114.
Followed by: 2056, 1717 and 341.
Oh and one team that doesn't often make these lists, but should: 2826, wave robotic. In 2012 they were division finalisits, IRI winners, and had one of the best shooters in the world.

[connor.worley]

Too many ties to pick a top ten. 1717 is my favorite.

[sanddrag]

I recall a thread of this sort in the past, and it did not end up well. I have no problem recognizing great teams, but let's use caution here folks with where we take this.

[Anupam Goli]

I guess the follow up question would be...who are the top 10 teams numbered 2056 or higher, with less than 10 years experience? Not including sister teams or spin off's from other teams.

not in any particular order:
2056
3322
2337
2415
4334 (I think they deserve to be on this list)
2168
2826
2590
2054 (I know its below 2056, but they're a good team)
2046 (same)

[XaulZan11]

Oh and one team that doesn't often make these lists, but should: 2826, wave robotic. In 2012 they were division finalisits, IRI winners, and had one of the best shooters in the world.

I think it is telling that out of all the elite teams coming to Wisconsin this year (16, 71, 111), I may be most worried/excited about 2826...or maybe I'm just another victim of regional bias :)

[Andrew Schreiber]

All Time? From the standpoint of most dominating robots... Here's the top 6 that come to mind.

71 - 2002
47 - 1998 (?)
1114 - 2010
341 - 2012
1717 - 2012
67 - 2009

[smistthegreat]

All Time? From the standpoint of most dominating robots... Here's the top 6 that come to mind.

71 - 2002
47 - 1998 (?)
1114 - 2010
341 - 2012
1717 - 2012
67 - 2009

I would include 1114 - 2008.

[AmoryG]

If by top ten best teams you mean teams most likely to go far in the Championship eliminations, then here's my list:

1. 67
2. 1114
3. 2056
4. 254
5. 217
6. 233
7. 111
8. 469
9. 987
10. 1717

Honorable Mention(ordered by team#): 16, 25, 177, 330, 2826

Obviously this is a subjective list, but I would say the a few of these, particularly the top 4, would be in almost any top 10 list.

If by best teams you meant most influential teams, then I would look at the FIRST HoF.

[Andrew Schreiber]

I would include 1114 - 2008.

I debated that and for some reason they don't stand out in my mind as "dominant" in the same sense the other teams do so I left them off.

I do point to them as probably the most elegant robot of all time though.

[Cory]

I debated that and for some reason they don't stand out in my mind as "dominant" in the same sense the other teams do so I left them off.

I do point to them as probably the most elegant robot of all time though.

They were more dominant in 2008 than 2010 and you left off the only dominant robot of 2010.

[AmoryG]

All Time? From the standpoint of most dominating robots... Here's the top 6 that come to mind.

71 - 2002
47 - 1998 (?)
1114 - 2010
341 - 2012
1717 - 2012
67 - 2009

I like your list, but I would also add 469's 2010 robot, and I would not include a team from 2012. I would say 2056, 67, 987, 469, and perhaps a few other teams were arguably just as dominant as 341 and 1717 in 2012. There really wasn't a truly dominant robot from that year.

[CalTran]

I would say that top teams may vary by regional area. Michigan Teams may not be "good" to west coast teams.

[Andrew Schreiber]

They were more dominant in 2008 than 2010 and you left off the only dominant robot of 2010.

And you neglected to mention a number. If you are referring to 469 I disagree that they were dominant due to their need for a good scoring bot to start the cycle going quickly.

[dellagd]

I recall a thread of this sort in the past, and it did not end up well. I have no problem recognizing great teams, but let's use caution here folks with where we take this.

Yeah. Probably best if we all just throw some good ones out there instead of ranking them.

254,111,1114,2056

Im new to the scene so these are just the ones that Im aware of being quite good.

[Gregor]

Any list that doesn't include 2056 isn't a top ten list. 14 regional wins in a row, never lost a regional, I can't see any team top that in the recent future.

[Anthony Galea]

I would include 1114 - 2008.

I would include 469=2010.

[Racer26]

I do point to them as probably the most elegant robot of all time though.

1503 - 2011 comes to mind for that one too.

[jwallace15]

In my own opinion: (not in any particular order other than numerical, just a list of my ten favourites)
16
33
47/51/65
67
118
245
469
1114
1717
2337
This opinion is based on my own research. I love every FRC team, but those ten teams are my favourites (as well as XaulZan11, I somewhat have a regional bias).

[MARS_James]

I think this has turned into the best robots not teams

In my opinion the best teams are clearly the hall of famers, followed by anyone who has ever won a regional chairmans award.

[Racer26]

Any list that doesn't include 2056 isn't a top ten list. 14 regional wins in a row, never lost a regional, I can't see any team top that in the recent future.

The only past team that was even close was 254 at 6 consecutive from their rookie year, and 2056 shattered that record 4 years ago.

[Dr Theta]

I would include 469=2010.

469 was not by themselves dominant that year though 56-16-5 while very good is not entirely dominant. They had arguably the best robot for that particular game for eliminations.

Also
1114, 67, 71, 118, 148, 2056, 2826, 233, 2415, 314, 254, 973, 330, 177,971, 987, 1986, 469, 359, 16, 1717, 1625, 111, 33, 217. All amazing teams with track records of success.

While I admire all of them my favorite is 1717, because penguins.
There are many teams worthy of mention for robot performance but these are the ones that stand out most strongly to me.

Honorable mentions:
48, 51, 1918, 2054, 1477, 2169, 624, 234, 1983, 1538, 2046, 2337, 525... I could go on and on.

[Cory]

469 was not by themselves dominant that year though 56-16-5 while very good is not entirely dominant. They had arguably the best robot for that particular game for eliminations.

71 wasn't dominant in quals in 2002 either but nobody will even attempt to argue that their robot was worse than the third most dominant ever.

[smistthegreat]

The Hall of Fame list does a pretty good job at listing the best "teams," just by nature of their award.

As far as on-field performance (best robot as opposed to best team), it's a much harder question to ask. People's views (mine included) will be heavily influenced by a number of factors including regional bias, age (I can't tell you how good any one robot was before about 2007), experience (I find that I'm more biased towards robots that I've seen in person), the list goes on. There are already different metrics that attempt to answer this question in terms of robot performance (OPR, CCWM, FRC Top 25 ranking, wins, win percentage, regional wins), but the truth is that none of them are perfect. There will always be a robot that had a bad event that lowered their OPR, or a robot that got upset in elims, or a robot that doesn't get enough exposure to be popular, or a robot that is so different from others that it's impossible to compare them.

That being said, I always enjoy having this debate, as discussing robot merit is usually an interesting and informative topic. I just think that there will never be a true answer to the original question.

[z_beeblebrox]

From my limited experience (Rebound Rumble and some YouTube surfing):

842
1717
1114
2056
254
67
987
341
111
16

[Nuttyman54]

There are already different metrics that attempt to answer this question in terms of robot performance (OPR, CCWM, FRC Top 25 ranking, wins, win percentage, regional wins)

Alright, Andrew and Ian, I think your statistics skills may be needed here. There might not be enough data going back far enough to do this but...

A 4* year moving average of OPR ranking, CCWM ranking, match win percentage and/or event win percentage (including divisions and Einstein) would be an interesting way too look at trends in team competitiveness. This evens out teams that had one really amazing year, and also top teams that had an "off" year (eg, 1114 only won one regional :eek: in 2009).

I suspect the teams that we'll see at the top are the ones already being talked about, but there might be a few surprises. I think it's at least a more statistically significant calculation of the "best" teams (from a competition standpoint) over time.

*I pick 4 because it's the maximum turnover time for a high school student on a team. Other time blocks could be used

[Basel A]

This doesn't answer the question of the thread, but taking a look at recent FRC history, here's an OPR-based ranking of FRC Teams over the past 5 years (2008-2012):
1114
2056
67
987
254
25
111
1717
330
469
217

I took the average of the z-scores of the average of the teams' event OPRs. Unweighted by year or event, but each year was standardised so the data could be combined. It gave this top 11. I made it a top 11 because 217 and 469 were pretty close and there was a pretty big gap after 217. I only have easy access to the past 5 years of data. 1114 and 2056 were ahead of the pack by far. As for OPR, I think it's more trustworthy than any other easily accessible measure of success. You can find a more detailed break-down (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2761) on CD-Media. That includes methodology, a summary of the more interesting data points, and the spreadsheet with ALL the teams.

[Andrew Lawrence]

71 wasn't dominant in quals in 2002 either but nobody will even attempt to argue that their robot was worse than the third most dominant ever.

Who would you say are the top two? I'm guessing 469 in 2010 would be one of them.

[Gregor]

Who would you say are the top two? I'm guessing 469 in 2010 would be one of them.

My guess would be 1114 in 2008.

[dcarr]

Bottom line, there is no shortage of absolutely phenomenal teams to look to for inspiration.

[Ian Curtis]

I only have easy access to the past 5 years of data. 1114 and 2056 were ahead of the pack by far. As for OPR, I think it's more trustworthy than any other easily accessible measure of success.

It is insanely impressive how competitive 2056 and 1114 are. Consider we lived in a perfect world, and 2056 had a 95% chance to win any regional they entered. There is still only a 50% chance that they would win all 14! If they had a 90% chance of winning any regional, there is only a 30% chance they would still be undefeated, and if there was an 80% chance of victory only a 5% chance they would remain undefeated. (Suggesting that their true chance of winning is perhaps even higher than 95%)

After discovering this on a lark the other night, I went back and looked at their win percentages. It turns out that since the founding of 2056, they have won over 80% of their matches. I thought that was probably best-in-class, so I calculated the same percentage for 1114 -- they've won about 85%! In 2010 and 2011 combined 1114 could count their total losses and ties on two hands, despite playing in 134 matches!

[Cory]

Who would you say are the top two? I'm guessing 469 in 2010 would be one of them.

71 02
71 01
47 00

Other arguments can be made, but I'd probably call that my top 3.

[Tristan Lall]

71 02
71 01
47 00

Other arguments can be made, but I'd probably call that my top 3.
Exactly the three I'd choose.

In 2002, 71 was basically unstoppable. In 2001, they were the most precise at balancing two goals quickly. In 2000, 47 could do everything, and a few things nobody else could.

[stundt1]

Not in order:
67
111
71
469
254
1114
2056
233
1717
16
148
118

More then ten teams, it is hard to rank the teams are we talking about all time best or last year?

[nikeairmancurry]

Not in order:
67
111
71
469
254
1114
2056
233
1717
16
148
118

More then ten teams, it is hard to rank the teams are we talking about all time best or last year?
No 217?

[waialua359]

The 2 teams I keep seeing NOT on the list.
25 and 987.;)

[Andrew Schreiber]

Alright, Andrew and Ian, I think your statistics skills may be needed here. There might not be enough data going back far enough to do this but...

A 4* year moving average of OPR ranking, CCWM ranking, match win percentage and/or event win percentage (including divisions and Einstein) would be an interesting way too look at trends in team competitiveness. This evens out teams that had one really amazing year, and also top teams that had an "off" year (eg, 1114 only won one regional :eek: in 2009).

I suspect the teams that we'll see at the top are the ones already being talked about, but there might be a few surprises. I think it's at least a more statistically significant calculation of the "best" teams (from a competition standpoint) over time.

*I pick 4 because it's the maximum turnover time for a high school student on a team. Other time blocks could be used

Remind me after the season and we'll grab the data and we'll see what we can do for this sort of thing. I know Zondag has some interesting stuff with weighted averages in his spreadsheet (linked earlier by BJC I think). I think it'd be interesting to see how it moves over time more than anything.

[dodar]

No 217?

And no 233? You cannot make an honest top FIRST list of any kind without having 233 on it.

[geomapguy]

I'm not too familiar with the teams up north but in ark-la-Tex its something like this. (Might be leaving some out)

16
57
118
148
231
624
1421
1477
1912

[Justin Montois]

No one agrees on the rankings? Where have I seen that before? ;)

Any team listed in this thread is great. I'll post my Top 5 below, in numerical order.

16- Always creative, always successful. They take an "outside the box idea" and execute to the point where it becomes an I can't believe "I didn't think of that idea".

67- Dominating designs, dominating strategies, perfect execution

254- Their robots are show pieces and they function as good as they look

1114- Strategic experts. Robots do exactly what they are designed to do, no more, no less. They keep it simple to the point of elegance.

2056- I believe they are the pinnacle of FRC right now. They are the perfect mix of the teams I've mentioned above. They learned from the best and as a result haven't lost a regional.

[MooreteP]

This doesn't answer the question of the thread, but taking a look at recent FRC history, here's an OPR-based ranking of FRC Teams over the past 5 years (2008-2012):
1114
2056
67
987
254
25
111
1717
330
469
217

I took the average of the z-scores of the average of the teams' event OPRs. Unweighted by year or event, but each year was standardised so the data could be combined. It gave this top 11. I made it a top 11 because 217 and 469 were pretty close and there was a pretty big gap after 217. I only have easy access to the past 5 years of data. 1114 and 2056 were ahead of the pack by far. As for OPR, I think it's more trustworthy than any other easily accessible measure of success. You can find a more detailed break-down (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2761) on CD-Media. That includes methodology, a summary of the more interesting data points, and the spreadsheet with ALL the teams.

There are of course, three kinds of lies.......

How about this stat?:
6 years IN A ROW on Einstein. (2006 - 2011)
Two Championships in the modern era with a much higher level of competitiveness. (2007, 2010)

Not only left off of many lists, but ranked low on most.

See if you can name this dominant team and what your ranked teams bring to the table as evidence of outstanding performance that can compare.

That being said....
the best team is the one that your are on.
It really is about so much more than the robot.

25 days to ship!!!!!

[Donut]

There are of course, three kinds of lies.......

How about this stat?:
6 years IN A ROW on Einstein. (2006 - 2011)
Two Championships in the modern era with a much higher level of competitiveness. (2007, 2010)

Not only left off of many lists, but ranked low on most.

See if you can name this dominant team and what your ranked teams bring to the table as evidence of outstanding performance that can compare.

That being said....
the best team is the one that your are on.
It really is about so much more than the robot.

25 days to ship!!!!!

177 of course, they've shown in this thread a few times already.

When we're discussing dominant robots, I think one of the most dominant robots that didn't win a Championship was 25's 2006 machine. It lost 1 qualifying match the entire season (a match on Newton), its other losses all came during the Championship playoffs (most of them on Einstein).

Has any team gone undefeated in qualifying for the entire season?

[MARS_James]

Has any team gone undefeated in qualifying for the entire season?

476, 3293, 2869 last year (though they only attended 1 regional)

[mr.roboto2826]

177 of course, they've shown in this thread a few times already.

Has any team gone undefeated in qualifying for the entire season?

Durning the 2012 Season, 987 High Rollers went undefeated in not only one event but two. And almost went undefeated on curie (they lost one match).

[nikeairmancurry]

1114 took a undefeated season deep into Champs in 2010. 1 qualifying lost to 469/111 and two more in the Einstein finals.

[AmoryG]

Has any team gone undefeated in qualifying for the entire season?

Technically 1114 wasn't undefeated when they entered the Einstein finals with a 66-1-2 record, but they could have had 67 wins and 0 losses until that point if they hadn't lost on purpose in qualification match 100 on the 2010 Curie Division. And if you're wondering why they lost that match on purpose it was probably the safest thing for 1114 to do to lock up the #1 seed on Curie. That's just how the ranking system worked that year.

[JB987]

Durning the 2012 Season, 987 High Rollers went undefeated in not only one event but two. And almost went undefeated on curie (they lost one match).

40-0 up to the last Curie qual. If I remember correctly we lost that last match by 4 points because we opted for the coop bridge:(

[nuggetsyl]

Durning the 2012 Season, 987 High Rollers went undefeated in not only one event but two. And almost went undefeated on curie (they lost one match).

Omg they did what we did in 06.

[Justin Montois]

Omg they did what we did in 06.

We beat you ;)

Actually 111 beat you.

[TheMadCADer]

40-0 up to the last Curie qual. If I remember correctly we lost that last match by 4 points because we opted for the coop bridge:(

Looks that way. Here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=413yosEYv8k#t=2326s) the match video. Caution: you may want to mute it if you have issues like I do with Curie being pronounced like "curry". :P

[waialua359]

Durning the 2012 Season, 987 High Rollers went undefeated in not only one event but two. And almost went undefeated on curie (they lost one match).

There are many other teams that have gone undefeated in 2 events in previous years.

[waialua359]

Omg they did what we did in 06.

And it happens to be the 2 teams I mentioned earlier.:)

[karomata]

In terms of being consistantly good at the robot game every year, sorted by how good:
1. 148 (Yes, I know it's very biased)
2. 1114
3. 2056
4. 111
5. 177
6. 217
7. 233
8. 1717
9. 16
10. 118

Didn't put a whole lot of time and effort into thinking about it, might post a better list later when I have more time and energy to put into it.

[nikeairmancurry]

In terms of being consistantly good at the robot game every year, sorted by how good:
1. 148 (Yes, I know it's very biased)
2. 1114
3. 2056
4. 111
5. 177
6. 217
7. 233
8. 1717
9. 16
10. 118

Didn't put a whole lot of time and effort into thinking about it, might post a better list later when I have more time and energy to put into it.

Yeah, any list without 67 is just, wrong in my eyes.

[Lil' Lavery]

I debated that and for some reason they don't stand out in my mind as "dominant" in the same sense the other teams do so I left them off.

I do point to them as probably the most elegant robot of all time though.

1114 in 2008 was the most dominant robot since Team Hammond in 2002. While Einstein was far from their shining performance (despite winning the championship), their season as a whole merits consideration among the best seasons in FRC history. Their hybrid period scores alone would frequently beat other alliances' scores for the match. They had a period of time between the final qualification match at GTR and the first match on Einstein where they won 34 consecutive matches. In a game where the median winning score was somewhere around 50, 1114's mean scores for the season were north of 100.

2008 was one of the few games where OPR can actually provide some meaningful data and insight, and 1114's OPR absolutely blew everyone else out of the water. Their season long OPR (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=733759&postcount=160) (71.63) was 34% higher than the 2nd highest OPR (1124 at 53.27). Among individual regional event OPR's (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=732606&postcount=148), they had the highest two by a wide marging and their week 1 event ranked 7th.

The gulf between 1114 and everyone else in 2008 was massive.

[karomata]

Yeah, any list without 67 is just, wrong in my eyes.

I ordered my list by their average year to year performance. The better they are on average, the higher they are ranked. I wouldn't say 67 ranks in the top 10, but they are still a really good team.

Just my philosophy.

[Anupam Goli]

I ordered my list by their average year to year performance. The better they are on average, the higher they are ranked. I wouldn't say 67 ranks in the top 10, but they are still a really good team.

Just my philosophy.


but... but... 67 has won 2 world championships back to back in 2009 and 2010! And 67's bot in 2012 was nothing short of top 5! If anything I would say, while 118's robots are beautiful and they're an amazing team, I would exclude them from that top 10 list, since they seemed to have a few off years in the past few seasons.

[Andrew Schreiber]

I ordered my list by their average year to year performance. The better they are on average, the higher they are ranked. I wouldn't say 67 ranks in the top 10, but they are still a really good team.

Just my philosophy.

What metric did you use for performance? Because no metric I could come up with would give me anywhere near your rating.

[Adam Freeman]

I ordered my list by their average year to year performance. The better they are on average, the higher they are ranked. I wouldn't say 67 ranks in the top 10, but they are still a really good team.

Just my philosophy.

I agree. We have only fully met our expectations 3 times in the last 8 years.

All the teams you listed are outstanding.

We will try to do better in the future.

[Anupam Goli]

I agree. We have only fully met our expectations 3 times in the last 8 years.

All the teams you listed are outstanding.

We will try to do better in the future.

Words cannot describe the amazingness of this post. Too many things can be said about 67 from this one post. ;)

[apalrd]

I wouldn't say 67 ranks in the top 10, but they are still a really good team.

The Data shows that Team 67 is the best. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2383) The sheet lists total Championship points accumulated since 2001 and derated points, and 67 is the best on both metrics.

The fact that they've won 3 out of the 4 Michigan State Championships (while being only MSC Finalists at the fourth), won the championship Chairman's award and are in the HOF, won the world championship three times, including twice in a row and twice within the past 4 years (student change-over interval) all supports this conclusion.

[EricLeifermann]

I agree. We have only fully met our expectations 3 times in the last 8 years.

All the teams you listed are outstanding.

We will try to do better in the future.

You're doing better than us we're 0 for 4...

Wish we could have made it 1 for 4 and 4 for 8 for us both last year...

[dodar]

The Data shows that Team 67 is the best. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2383) The sheet lists total Championship points accumulated since 2001 and derated points, and 67 is the best on both metrics.

The fact that they've won 3 out of the 4 Michigan State Championships (while being only MSC Finalists at the fourth), won the championship Chairman's award and are in the HOF, won the world championship three times, including twice in a row and twice within the past 4 years (student change-over interval) all supports this conclusion.

Even though I echo most everyone's sentiments that 67 has been one of the most dominant teams in FIRST, I would have to say that 2056 takes the prize and only doesnt in your calculations because they havent been around but more than 6 years(this is their 7th). Even though 2056 has never won the NCA or the WC, they are like 16/16 at regionals and have gone to 2/6 Einsteins. Their accomplishments over the time period they have been around, to me at least, seems to be the best ratio in first.(Note, I'm considering a minimum of 5 years in FRC)

[Andrew Schreiber]

Even though I echo most everyone's sentiments that 67 has been one of the most dominant teams in FIRST, I would have to say that 2056 takes the prize and only doesnt in your calculations because they havent been around but more than 6 years(this is their 7th). Even though 2056 has never won the NCA or the WC, they are like 16/16 at regionals and have gone to 2/6 Einsteins. Their accomplishments over the time period they have been around, to me at least, seems to be the best ratio in first.(Note, I'm considering a minimum of 5 years in FRC)

Except Jim's calculations are a weighted average that more or less removes anything more than 4 years ago from the equation.

[Nuttyman54]

but... but... 67 has won 2 world championships back to back in 2009 and 2010!

And everyone forgets that they were also World Finalists in 2008. That's three straight trips to Einstein finals. Let's break down the numbers here:

The last time 67 had a season where they did not win a regional was 2001 (If the FIRST website is to be believed).

Since 2008, they have played on 23 different fields of play (including Einstein appearances). They reached the finals 21 of those times, and came away with 17 wins. That is a finals appearance rate of over 90%, and a conversion rate of 80%.

I firmly believe that 67's 2009-2010 back-to-back Championships marks the greatest performance by a single team ever. Yes, even better than Beatty 2001-2002. 67 lost one event in that stretch, walking away finalists at MSC to 469 in 2010. They won every single other event, including the Championship. That is 8 wins in 9 appearances.

Adam is correct that they missed their goal (winning the Championship) several times. He, and the rest of 67, are also incredibly humble and one of the greatest groups of people you will ever meet in FIRST. But let's also consider that two other teams that are always part of the "best teams" discussion, 1114 and 2056, have one Championship win between them. 67 has three. That puts into perspective just how insanely hard it is to do what HOT did.

[dodar]

Except Jim's calculations are a weighted average that more or less removes anything more than 4 years ago from the equation.

But it's just for championships.

[dodar]

And everyone forgets that they were also World Finalists in 2008. That's three straight trips to Einstein finals. Let's break down the numbers here:

The last time 67 had a season where they did not win a regional was 2001 (If the FIRST website is to be believed).

Since 2008, they have played on 23 different fields of play (including Einstein appearances). They reached the finals 21 of those times, and came away with 17 wins. That is a finals appearance rate of over 90%, and a conversion rate of 80%.

I firmly believe that 67's 2009-2010 back-to-back Championships marks the greatest performance by a single team ever. Yes, even better than Beatty 2001-2002. 67 lost one event in that stretch, walking away finalists at MSC to 469 in 2010. They won every single other event, including the Championship. That is 8 wins in 9 appearances.

Adam is correct that they missed their goal (winning the Championship) several times. He, and the rest of 67, are also incredibly humble and one of the greatest groups of people you will ever meet in FIRST. But let's also consider that two other teams that are always part of the "best teams" discussion, 1114 and 2056, have one Championship win between them. 67 has three. That puts into perspective just how insanely hard it is to do what HOT did.

I'm not knocking 67 in any way, shape, or form, but would these yearly results have happened if they weren't able to have well over 60 matches a year before going to the World Championships?

What do most teams who go to CMP have? 20-32(Thats going off a team going to 2 regionals). If you give those same teams double the play time and experience both on the field and in the pits, I guarantee you 67(and other dominant Michigan teams) have an exponentially harder time. Now, I'm not saying they still wouldnt have won or dominated the way they did, every drive team always wishes they had more time to practice and more matches to play and more time to code and more time to fix/upgrade their robot.

[BrendanB]

Everybody's top 10 will be different and to be honest, top 10 doesn't even do ranking justice! We all look up to teams for various reasons whether they be on the field success, innovative designs, team structure, etc.


There are just some things FIRSTers will never agree upon and this is one of them.

[Andrew Schreiber]

But it's just for championships.

We need to define best for this discussion... My definition is that they have repeated high level performance, demonstrated inspiration, and are widely recognized by their peers for their efforts. Most of the teams we have been discussing meet these criteria.

IF we were looking solely at robot performance... then there is only one stage worth looking at. I'd even argue that any team that has never made Einstein can't be on that list. But I honestly believe that teams that do not have a repeated history of high level performance at Championships cannot be considered even for my definition of best. This includes multiple Einstein appearances and numerous EI/CA wins at both local and championship wins (obviously HoF status counts)...

Based on these criteria 67 is the best. The only teams I would consider as an argument would be 111, 254, and 1114.



(of note, my list earlier in this thread used a different metric, it was for 'most dominant robot' not best team)

[Orion.DeYoe]

How on earth did you manage to miss 67? 1717? 469? 217? Point is, there is really not a specific list of "top teams in FIRST". It varies year to year, and there's much too many to list. Go look up FRC Top 25 or search through the forums for Top Teams by Decade or by number block. Can't remember which.

Yeah. It's really hard to narrow it down to only 10.

[Bob Steele]

I agree. We have only fully met our expectations 3 times in the last 8 years.

All the teams you listed are outstanding.

We will try to do better in the future.

Adam, no really, you guys are the best...we love to watch you every year.
Please, please don't do better in the future...

just kidding...

Best of luck...good luck on a fourth championship..

[Lil' Lavery]

Considering the OP specified this thread to be about "all time" performance, a lot of people are putting a ton of weight on recent years. While 2056's perfection at regionals is nothing short of mind blowingly impressive, the regionals of the 90s and early 2000s were a very different environment that the regionals today. There were a lot fewer of them and often you had several of the teams being discussed in this thread in attendance for each of them. Heck, up until 1999 there was only one winner per event. Winning a pre-alliance event carries a lot more stock than an alliance era event. Winning multiple regionals in the same year was practically unheard of. While multiple teams pick up three wins per year these days, that had only occurred once prior to 2006.

[Karthik mode]
There are several teams that need a lot more discussion in this thread. Chief among them is 47 (pun intended). The 1996 rookie all stars were the Chairman's Award winners in only their second season, AND reached the championship finals. They became the first team to ever win multiple regionals in the same season and the only team to do so before the alliance era. But they didn't stop at two regional victories that year, they won three (Great Lakes, New England, Southwest), a feat not matched again until 2006 (when 1114 and 1503 won three events together). In 2000, they had one of the legendary robots in FRC history, taking 2/3 of regionals (and being the #1 seed at the other). If it weren't for a mechanical failure during the championship eliminations, they likely would have won it all. While their later years weren't quite as successful, the only blemish on 47's resume is a lack of a championship event victory. And that is mitigated by the fact the team they merged with (65) when they became Wings of Fire won it all in 2003.

Until the class of 2008, it was impossible to be on Team Hammond for all four years of high school and not have won a national championship. That's particularly impressive when you consider their rookie year was all the way back in 1996. The class of 2004 won three of them (2001, 2002, 2004). If you lower that bar to reaching the Einstein/Championship finals, you can add the classes of 2008, 2009, and 2010 to that streak. They're still the only team to hang four Championship banners, and they're credited with three of the most dominant robots in FRC history (1997, 2001, 2002).

Meanwhile, at South Windsor High School, the classes of 2009, 2010, and 2011 never experienced a single season where they didn't reach Einstein. While this streak is obviously newer, the sheer length of it is absurd. If 2056 winning every regional they attended for six years is impressive enough to land them near the top of everyone's lists, I don't see how Bobcat Robotics' streak of winning six straight division titles isn't. Not to mention they picked up victories on Einstein in 2007 and 2010.

And while they've recieved a fair bit of attention, something is to be said about the continuous success of 16. The Bomb Squad was a force to be reckoned with before alliances and obviously still is today (as a member of the reigning championship alliance). Add in the fact that not only are they a member of the Hall of Fame, but they were several times one of the Chairman's Award finalists, and you have a pretty spotless resume.

[/Karthik mode]

[Koko Ed]

My top team would be MOE.
When Dean Kamen came up with the concept of FIRST the team he had in mind was MOE. They are a powerful community leader. They have infectious spirit. They are intense about being safe. They are gracious in defeat and victory and they are highly competitive.

[Nuttyman54]

I'm not knocking 67 in any way, shape, or form, but would these yearly results have happened if they weren't able to have well over 60 matches a year before going to the World Championships?


Yes and no. There is no denying that more matches helps teams prepare for championships, I'm not comparing them against the average team. I'm comparing them against the others in the "Best of" discussion. 1114 has typically attended three regionals since 2006 (2009 being the only exception). 2056 started attending three in 2011.

Yes 67 had a lot of practice and that has definitely helped them at Championships. They're also winning almost all of their regional/district events too however, and district championships. The odds are NOT in their favor to do this. Simply put, they're playing at a level that exceeds almost everyone else in FIRST.

I might have a different outlook if 67 doesn't win all their district events and MSC during those seasons, but dominates at CMP. Or even if they struggle out of the box but win at MSC and CMP. The fact is that they start winning from the outset and then keep winning, in one of the toughest FIRST regions in the world.

I'm not going to say that 67 is better or worse than 1114, 2056, 254 or any other team that's performing at that level. It's just too close to call. But I don't believe they can be left off the list, they're just too good. When you look at the statistics, and you compare their results to the results of their peers, I don't think you can argue that they're not one of the top 5 teams in FIRST, let alone top 10.

[Racer26]

My top team would be MOE.
When Dean Kamen came up with the concept of FIRST the team he had in mind was MOE. They are a powerful community leader. They have infectious spirit. They are intense about being safe. They are gracious in defeat and victory and they are highly competitive.

Suggested reading: http://www.simbotics.org/about/outreach

There's a reason 1114 was the 2012 HoF inductee. The only one of your list simbotics (arguably) lacks is infectious spirit, and I think that's mostly because the teams they play with are tired of losing to them.

Filtering the 5 yr average OPR sheet for Canada, theres just 5 teams with 5yrAverage OPR Z-scores over 2 (1114, 2056, 3683, 188, and 1503), and just 14 teams over 1.

1114 and 2056's are over 4.5. 2056 at number 2 with a Z-score of 4.57 is over twice as strong as the #4 team, 188 with a Z-score of 2.25.

The interesting thing I notice flipping through the filters on that spreadsheet, is that the Canadian 100 or so teams, when compared to other groups of 100 or so teams (like FL or WA) is significantly stronger as a whole. The rank where Average Z-score = 0 is about 10% deeper in Canada. It seems the speculated effect of 1114/2056 making the Canadian 2nd tier stronger is true, or at least, its corroborated by this data.

[Lil' Lavery]

Suggested reading: http://www.simbotics.org/about/outreach

There's a reason 1114 was the 2012 HoF inductee. The only one of your list simbotics (arguably) lacks is infectious spirit, and I think that's mostly because the teams they play with are tired of losing to them.

Suggested reading: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/1983

Likewise, there's a reason why 365 was the 2007 HoF inductee. And it's not as if other teams aren't plenty of tired of losing to MOE. They won the last four Philadephia regionals before the switch to districts.

His selection of MOE as his personal choice for "top team" is in no way a slight to the Simbots or anyone else. It's a subjective choice, and MOE is one heck of a program that is an honor to play with each year.

[Ivan Malik]

There is one thing that this thread has solidified, the regionalisms of FIRST teams.

I have talked with FIRSTers from the upper and lower Midwest, New England, Michigan, Atlantic coast, Canada, never had the pleasure to really sit down with many of you from down south or out west, but there is a huge difference in what each area emphasizes at its core. Take for instance Michigan and the upper Midwestern teams. They will in the broad sense make robot performance more of an emphasis than those in NE. NE emphasizes the community (chairman's if you will) more than teams in Michigan. This is not saying that both don't emphasize both robot and community or that one does them better than the other, but each have evolved to have something different as their "go to" guiding principle. This also does not apply to any single team, but rather when you look at the community as a whole.

Debating who is best without parameters means that people will fill in the blanks with their core guiding principles. This means that we are all talking about different things. No amount of data or facts and figures can back up something if the something is not the same. This is not bad either. It is just something that people need to realize when talking about topics like "who is the best." This is without taking into consideration regional biases and competition systems. That is a whole other problem.

FIRST has its own culture, people need treat it like one.

[Racer26]

Suggested reading: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/1983

Likewise, there's a reason why 365 was the 2007 HoF inductee. And it's not as if other teams aren't plenty of tired of losing to MOE. They won the last four Philadephia regionals before the switch to districts.

His selection of MOE as his personal choice for "top team" is in no way a slight to the Simbots or anyone else. It's a subjective choice, and MOE is one heck of a program that is an honor to play with each year.

I'm definitely aware of the awesome that MOE is, and I wasn't really trying to suggest it was a slight to the Simbots. Ed is certainly entitled to select whomever he likes as his "top team".

I wasn't intending to come off as snarky as I did, but looking at the post again, I can see how it reads that way. His phrasing about MOE being the textbook vision of a FIRST team made me want to point out that Simbotics are equals in that regard.

[karomata]

I agree. We have only fully met our expectations 3 times in the last 8 years.

All the teams you listed are outstanding.

We will try to do better in the future.

This is an opinion thread, if people were gonna base their lists off of numbers and statistics, there would be no point in having a thread for everybody to express their opinions. My list is my opinion, and we are all entitled to our own opinions. If you guys really going to be statistical, you came to the wrong thread.

[dodar]

This is an opinion thread, if people were gonna base their lists off of numbers and statistics, there would be no point in having a thread for everybody to express their opinions. My list is my opinion, and we are all entitled to our own opinions. If you guys really going to be statistical, you came to the wrong thread.

Dont take people responding to your post so seriously. people are bringing up facts to show people the reasoning behind their thoughts on the top teams. They are still giving their opinion and everyone loves to see these historical facts about how teams have done in past years and as a whole.

[1018sophmore]

To me every team even mentioned in this spread is amazing and coming from an average team (but my team forever) what these teams are able to do on and off the field is insane