How Much Defense Can You Play?

[Mr. Lim]

With the loading zone and pyramid being "protected zones" this year, I'm curious to just how much defense teams will play around those zones. Will defenders risk driving right up against protected robots? Will offensive robots risk pushing the defenders back to clear space or escape? Or will everyone keep some distance from each other to avoid taking penalties one way or another...

There are a few good Q&As on it, but the GDC can't comment on every specific hypothetical scenario. These are some examples:

Q255
https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/255/if-our-robot-is-in-our-protected-loading-zone-and-an-opposing-robot-places-itself-directly-in-front-of-us-such-that-we-cannot-leave-the-protected-area-without-intentially-striking-the-other-robot-cau

Q256
https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/256/if-we-are-actively-shooting-full-court-shots-from-our-protected-loading-zone-and-another-robot-attempts-to-defend-against-us-and-we-push-the-other-robot-away-to-create-space-to-shoot-either-with-our-r

Q284
https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/284/if-a-robot-is-defending-the-pyramid-and-is-pushed-into-the-pyramid-through-the-actions-of-an-opposing-robot-initiating-their-climb-is-the-defending-robot-liable-for-consequential-contact-under-g27-or

As an offensive robot in a protected zone, if a defender comes to block you, would you push them back to create shooting space? Would you push them out of the way to create an avenue to escape out of the loading zone? Both of these risk getting assessed a G18-1 penalty. Or do you play it safe and just run away the moment a defender puts pressure on you.

As a defender, are you comfortable driving right up against a protected robot to block it? This risks getting a G30 penalty if the offensive robot pushes back. Or do you keep your distance so they can't hit you while they're still protected?

These are a lot of hypotheticals that will come up at regionals, but it appears we won't be able to clarify them all beforehand via the Q&A.

I think it's worthwhile to have a discussion to see what everyone's thoughts are. Recent "full court shooter" videos are starting to pop up. No doubt alliances will want to send a defender to deal with them. What exactly will you tell this defender to do?

[Jay O'Donnell]

I believe there will be two major types of defense bots this year. One is a tall robot sent to block shots, and the other is a quick, strong robot who will just get in the way in the middle of the field. A good driver can cause havoc with as much space as there is.

[ehochstein]

It might become a strategy to flip grounded frisbees over as well.

[xSAWxBLADEx]

I believe there will be two major types of defense bots this year. One is a tall robot sent to block shots, and the other is a quick, strong robot who will just get in the way in the middle of the field. A good driver can cause havoc with as much space as there is.

Why not have a net, and a strong robot?

[Jay O'Donnell]

Why not have a net, and a strong robot?

You certainly could, you'd just have to pay special attention to your drive train and center of gravity.

[GCentola]

A good driver can cause havoc with as much space as there is.

This. It seems that the usual idea of defense is robot-robot. This can be effective, but then it just becomes a question of "can we push them" or "is it safe to hit them in this part of the field?" With 2 minutes to drive around, some of the most effective defense I have seen is played by strategic control of game-pieces or even by slowing down your opponent. With such a limited amount of time, slowing down your opponent with limited robot-robot contact can be just as effective. Offensive power is all about cycle-time (yes, pushing matches do slow teams down, but they aren't the only type of defense).

Game-piece control is a bit different this year (and IMO, a bit more difficult) so I don't know how many alliances or robots will pull it off effectively-especially because many teams seem to forsake floor-loading for feeder-only.

[TheMadCADer]

I could see a team doing well by going from one edge of the field to the other via the space under their own pyramid, blocking opposing robots as they drive by to their feeding stations. As long as they keep their wheels perpendicular to the robot they're defending and stay in good positions, they can certainly slow down other robots quite a bit and occasionally draw a penalty if they are touching the pyramid while blocking the 'lane'.

[Andrew Lawrence]

I don't see every team lining up with their tower to shoot, so I think a good defensive robot would be able to quickly ram into a robot lining up, throwing them off track, and maybe even making them miss their shot. It's quick, easy, and allows a single robot to shut down more than one opponent robot at once.

[kingbrandon14]

One good semi-defensive strategy is to go and pick up or herd frisbees from the opponent's side back to your own teammates, letting you score more and them score less. Also, if the robot could be short enough to drive under the pyramids, it could sort of camp under it and push opponents away before they have a chance to touch it. Just a strategy, we aren't using it though

[pfreivald]

I think defense will be huge this year.

[CalTran]

One good semi-defensive strategy is to go and pick up or herd frisbees from the opponent's side back to your own teammates, letting you score more and them score less. Also, if the robot could be short enough to drive under the pyramids, it could sort of camp under it and push opponents away before they have a chance to touch it. Just a strategy, we aren't using it though

This only works if your alliance has the ability to floor pick up, otherwise it becomes a somewhat worthless endeavor. Which, for the most part, appears to be a particularly rare ability, only outmatched in rareness by a 30pt climber.

And also, clamp under what and push what? Is that in reference to a frisbee? If yes then I would say that that is an incredibly strange scenario, and one likely to get your robot as trapped under the pyramid as the frisbee you're defending is. You're putting yourself in the very middle of an otherwise untouchable structure.

[JM033]

Why not have a net, and a strong robot?

How's your teams build coming along? Plan to climb?

[Donut]

I think it's worthwhile to have a discussion to see what everyone's thoughts are. Recent "full court shooter" videos are starting to pop up. No doubt alliances will want to send a defender to deal with them. What exactly will you tell this defender to do?

I'm worried about this. There aren't a lot of full court shooter videos out yet, but I've seen enough to be convinced that at least a handful of teams will pull off effective ones that could score 70+ points a match if left uncontested. But how do you defend them? Skillful driving is fine and dandy for robots that have to line up to shoot, but unless you can keep a full court shooter from their loading area for half the match all it does is delay the inevitable. A 15 second delay getting across the field once doesn't really stop them from unloading 45 frisbees into the goals.

The thing that compounds my concern is that it seems like many teams are building short robots to fit under the pyramid or hang, and there's not a huge incentive to build a tall robot since it hurts your CG. Outside of the handful of 30 point climbers I don't think many teams will see a reason to extend to 84 inches in their home zone, and without that ability a tall full court shooter is unblockable.

If we have the weight for it a simple piston to flip up a flexible flag/ski pole may be useful to block taller shooters like this if there is a need for it. And if the math works out that we're still not tall enough to block a shot... well I guess taking penalties for loading zone contact could be the lesser of 2 evils.

[xSAWxBLADEx]

How's your teams build coming along? Plan to climb?

climb yes, shoot maybe...if we get time

[DampRobot]

I doubt many teams will shoot full court, as I have stated in the other thread. While I will admit that it is a whole lot easier to shoot full court than last year, I just don't think it will be an effective strategy.

We've seen in year after year that effective robots often get really close to the goal, especially when shooting is involved. 2012 saw many "fender bots" that nevertheless were extremely successful (971, among many other teams, specialized in close range shots). In 2006, many effective robots got on top of the ramp to shoot or even just dumped into the low goal. Lots of teams like to focus on long range shooting, and forget that the most accurate (and highest percentage) shots are those that are taken from close to the target.

How important will defense be? Very. Will there be many robots that try to block shots? I don't think so. We saw very few robots last year that actually tried to block shots, and I don't see them being a huge factor in 2013. It's hard to block other robots shots compared to keeping them from aligning in the first place. In 2012, effective defenders kept robots from getting to the fender, the place where they were most likely to make their shots. If a robot can keep other robots out of the area under the goals, they will be a lot more effective than a robot that tries to block shots simply by putting a net in front of other robots.

[Grim Tuesday]

I feel quite sorry for the head refs this year. At least the reasonably astute observer has been fired.

From Q138 on the definition of consequential and purposeful

A. Consequential means the action has an effect on the outcome of the MATCH. Purposeful means the action was deemed intentional.


I can think of quite a few valid cases where it can be argued that contact is consequential. It is very easy to argue (truthfully) that someone playing defense and accidentally contacts you while you contact the pyramid slows you down and lowers your scoring. If the match was close that's consequential. Only one of the conditions need be fulfilled for the penalty to take place so even if the contact was accidental, it can still be ruled consequential.

And isn't the point of contact defense to be consequential on the match? If not why would anyone play it.

I suspect either head refs will be very unwilling to give out these sorts of penalties, letting defense run wild or will hand them out like there's no tomorrow. It very well may be regional dependent.

[pfreivald]

I can think of very few cases of where it can not be argued that contact is consequential.

Exactly. Protected zones are protected zones...

[Grim Tuesday]

Exactly. Protected zones are protected zones...

Precisely. I would be willing to bet a lot of teams will forget this and think consequential means only if they knock a robot off the tower. Note that there can be tech foul for contact in the loading zone (and as I said above, almost all contact can be argued consequential in a close match). I'll be telling our drivers, if playing defense, to steer as clear of there as possible to avoid any semblance of consequential contact.

[TheCrayButton]

My Team can shoot full court with our robot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzIkee13KB0&feature=player_profilepage

We are not to afraid of robots defending our long shots. There will be a very few amount of teams that actually play defense for those that can shoot long range.

Our first year in FIRST was 2011, and we had an all defense robot. All defenders have to do is just get in the way of other robots. They don't have to fully "block" them from the task at hand. With only 2mins, if defenders do this, they will win matches.

[JesseK]

This is the first year where an offensive robot can drive into the opponent alliance's protected zone without penalty as well (just don't actually touch the pyramid and you're fine). It totally opens up a whole new can of worms of rule subjectivity.

[45Auto]

There will be a very few amount of teams that actually play defense for those that can shoot long range.

Your robot appears to be shooting from very low. You don't think an opposing robot parked directly in front of you will interfere with your long range shot?

[Chris is me]

This is the first year where an offensive robot can drive into the opponent alliance's protected zone without penalty as well (just don't actually touch the pyramid and you're fine). It totally opens up a whole new can of worms of rule subjectivity.

In 2012 there was nothing stopping a defending robot from driving through either the key or the bridge lane, as long as they didn't touch anyone.

I'm not afraid of full court shooters. Not one bit.

[BrendanB]

My Team can shoot full court with our robot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzIkee13KB0&feature=player_profilepage

We are not to afraid of robots defending our long shots. There will be a very few amount of teams that actually play defense for those that can shoot long range.

Our first year in FIRST was 2011, and we had an all defense robot. All defenders have to do is just get in the way of other robots. They don't have to fully "block" them from the task at hand. With only 2mins, if defenders do this, they will win matches.
To be honest you guys have a very elegant shooter, but it is much easier to defend against than a team shooting from in front of the pyramid.

Long range/full court shooters will have great success during qualifications matches, but over lunch break before eliminations start, give me a pizza box and a piston and it might be game over.

And once someone does block your shot you would then have to find your way to a clear zone (probably your own pyramid or at least the half court line).

[pfreivald]

In 2012 there was nothing stopping a defending robot from driving through either the key or the bridge lane, as long as they didn't touch anyone.

Even that's not sufficiently true. We manhandled quite a few robots away from their key without incurring a penalty, because while we were touching their key, they weren't.

[TheCrayButton]

To be honest you guys have a very elegant shooter, but it is much easier to defend against than a team shooting from in front of the pyramid.

Long range/full court shooters will have great success during qualifications matches, but over lunch break before eliminations start, give me a pizza box and a piston and it might be game over.

And once someone does block your shot you would then have to find your way to a clear zone (probably your own pyramid or at least the half court line).

Yes, this is very true! During finals and elimination's, they will find some way to block us. I have no doubt about that.

While our focus is shooting from full court, we can still shoot from anywhere. We have an adjustable angle we can shoot from. So therefore, we can be under the pyramid and still shoot 3's just fine.

[TheCrayButton]

Your robot appears to be shooting from very low. You don't think an opposing robot parked directly in front of you will interfere with your long range shot?

Our robot will be shooting from about 32inch high. Yes that is very low and it can easily be blocked. But in qualifications, i can almost guarantee teams won't block our robot that much. We can sit there all day and shoot just fine. All the other teams will be worried about shooting themselves.

Last year, we were a purely offensive robot that dumped balls in the basket. In qualifications, we didn't get blocked at all. It it really is strange how that works.

Now, in finals we will be blocked, but that is why we can shoot from anywhere on the field. We have an adjustable angle.

[EricLeifermann]

Our robot will be shooting from about 32inch high. Yes that is very low and it can easily be blocked. But in qualifications, i can almost guarantee teams won't block our robot that much. We can sit there all day and shoot just fine. All the other teams will be worried about shooting themselves.

Last year, we were a purely offensive robot that dumped balls in the basket. In qualifications, we didn't get blocked at all. It it really is strange how that works.

Now, in finals we will be blocked, but that is why we can shoot from anywhere on the field. We have an adjustable angle.

I think you will see that after you start shooting from full court that the other alliance will notice and come block you.

I see full court shooter being more like snipers, take the open shots from the feeder station when available, if not collect the 4 discs drive to the pyramid/your preferred shooting location, shoot your 4 discs, and repeat.

[NXTGeek]

I doubt many teams will shoot full court, as I have stated in the other thread. While I will admit that it is a whole lot easier to shoot full court than last year, I just don't think it will be an effective strategy.

We've seen in year after year that effective robots often get really close to the goal, especially when shooting is involved. 2012 saw many "fender bots" that nevertheless were extremely successful (971, among many other teams, specialized in close range shots). In 2006, many effective robots got on top of the ramp to shoot or even just dumped into the low goal. Lots of teams like to focus on long range shooting, and forget that the most accurate (and highest percentage) shots are those that are taken from close to the target.

My opinion is that the successful teams of 2012 saw the limitations of the inconsistent foam basketballs and decided that in a game with barriers in the field and such that shooting from close and picking up from their own half of the field was the more effective strategy. Now won't those same teams see the opportunity to shoot a consistent game piece next to a protected stockpile of them as an opportunity they can't pass up?
The threshold of accuracy from those pitiful foam toys was too low for sniper shots, and basketballs could easily be transferred to the other side of the field by the human player. Do that same strategy this game, and you will suddenly be down an alliance robot, which is transferring frisbees across the field anyway.

[Jakester9999]

I believe that during qualifications there is going to be less defending! People will want to show what they can do, to try to get ranked number 1. . When it comes time for eliminations, the teams that actually showed during qualifications that they can defend, will have a better advantage of getting picked for an alliance then robots that tried shooting and were not as successful. Its going to be very interesting to see how many robots will defend this year. A good defense bot that can also make a 30 point climb rather fast may be more effective this year then a shooter bot.....

[TheCrayButton]

I believe that during qualifications there is going to be less defending! People will want to show what they can do, to try to get ranked number 1. . When it comes time for eliminations, the teams that actually showed during qualifications that they can defend, will have a better advantage of getting picked for an alliance then robots that tried shooting and were not as successful. Its going to be very interesting to see how many robots will defend this year. A good defense bot that can also make a 30 point climb rather fast may be more effective this year then a shooter bot.....

Exactly! I agree 100%. The defense robots will only show during finals. And any robot can play defense. In the finals, there will be good shooter robots that will play defense.

It will be interesting to see how many people actually "play" defense for their main strategy.

[pfreivald]

And any robot can play defense.

But some are better at it than others!

[JohnSchneider]

I think you will see that after you start shooting from full court that the other alliance will notice and come block you.

I see full court shooter being more like snipers, take the open shots from the feeder station when available, if not collect the 4 discs drive to the pyramid/your preferred shooting location, shoot your 4 discs, and repeat.

This is a very good interpretation of what I think we'll see at higher levels of play

[bduddy]

I think that many of the teams assuming there will be less defense in the qualification rounds are forgetting that this year, unlike almost every other, there is no deterrent in the ranking system to play defense. Yes, many teams will still play based on old assumptions and neglect defense during qualifications, but wiser teams may not and those robots assuming a lack of defense may be in a tough position.

[Mitchellsocks]

There is nothing in the rules against using pneumatic air blasts or fans for disc deflection, is there?

[JohnSchneider]

There is nothing in the rules against using pneumatic air blasts or fans for disc deflection, is there?

Nope. Teams employed a similar strategy in 2009.

[Mitchellsocks]

Nope. Teams employed a similar strategy in 2009.

Cool, thank you.

[Siri]

I think that many of the teams assuming there will be less defense in the qualification rounds are forgetting that this year, unlike almost every other, there is no deterrent in the ranking system to play defense. Yes, many teams will still play based on old assumptions and neglect defense during qualifications, but wiser teams may not and those robots assuming a lack of defense may be in a tough position.Further, getting into a defensive position (vs full courters) is much easier than many other years. Dunkers that weren't defended against in 2012 are overlooking the barrier across the field that few teams crossed in quals, and that they were scoring from their own zone: not protected, but also not sitting on the other side of the court in a whopping 20" loading area.

To teams unaccustomed to elim play, there's a world of difference between looking over at the other side of the court [from your robot] and seeing someone dunk, versus having someone zip frisbees down the field while sitting essentially next to you. (Location, location, location!) Better to compare it to 2010 than 2012, when defenders were naturally very close to scorers--one of the (many) reasons those quals were so slow. And this time full court low-shooters are much easier to block; they're not even moving. It's obvious for eager defenders and smart would-be alliance captains. Scorers who aren't that great might not be willing to give up offense altogether [often what stymied 2012], but unlike prior years, they don't have to--it's right next door!

All that said, defensive strategy is otherwise quite intricate this year. (It's not all as broad-side-of-a-barn as low loading zone shots are.)