<R31> Regarding Split numbered bumpers

[Joe Johnson]

Hey folks,
Sorry if this has already been answered clearly somewhere. We are so far behind, I haven't been able to keep up.

Regarding Rule R31 and Splitting numbers over a gap in our bumper.

We have a 32" wide robot with a 16" gap in the mid section (32"-8"-8"=16" gap max on this side).

Can we split our team number '1234' as '12' on the left and '34' on the right?

Joe J.

[Hallry]

According to the blue box under R31:

There is no prohibition against splitting Team numbers onto different sections of BUMPER. The intent is that the Team’s number is clearly visible and unambiguous so that Judges, Referees, Announcers, and other Teams can easily identify competing ROBOTS.

So, as long as people are able to quickly and easily know what team you are from looking at your bumpers, then yes, you are allowed to split your team numbers onto different sections of your bumper.

[Qbot2640]

I believe the intention behind a permission to split numbers is to have them on adjacent sections. For example, if your design results in an octagonal base for some reason, you could split your numbers across a vertex of the octagon. It seems to me that, while possibly legal, splitting your number across a wide gap may not meet the "unambiguous" requirement...1234 could look like 12 from one angle, 34 from another, and 1234 from straight on. Our bumpers are going to be just a bit more than 8" - and there is still plenty of room for four digits. Just choose one side of the gap - we're going with numbers on the right.

[Mark McLeod]

I wouldn't think splitting the team number over a 16" gap would get past the inspectors. That wasn't permitted last year.

The digits have to be close enough to be easily considered a single number, not two separate numbers.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

The blue box reference is correct, numbers can be split with the clear intent that numbers be "unambiguous so that Judges, Referees, Announcers, and other Teams can easily identify competing ROBOTS." This may be difficult for teams with numbers 22, 2222, 11, 1111, etc. I tell teams when asked, "you want to play on Saturday, right? Then you have to be sure you can be identified from the stands."

[Joe Johnson]

The blue box reference is correct, numbers can be split with the clear intent that numbers be "unambiguous so that Judges, Referees, Announcers, and other Teams can easily identify competing ROBOTS." This may be difficult for teams with numbers 22, 2222, 11, 1111, etc. I tell teams when asked, "you want to play on Saturday, right? Then you have to be sure you can be identified from the stands."

So... ...to pick a number number at random, suppose I wanted to label a robot 3958. Could I put 39 on the Left and 58 on the rear?

It is going to be really hard/impossible to get a 4 digit number on one side or the other (each only 11" wide including the 8" + the 3" from the edge of the side bumper)

I am not part of the Fairness Cult but this seems like a pretty big deal for 4 digit teams. If a 3 digit team can have an 8" bumper and a 4 digit team needs a wider one, ... ...well... that kinda stinks.

Joe J.

[Gregor]

So... ...to pick a number number at random, suppose I wanted to label a robot 3958. Could I put 39 on the Left and 58 on the rear?

It is going to be really hard/impossible to get a 4 digit number on one side or the other (each only 11" wide including the 8" + the 3" from the edge of the side bumper)

I am not part of the Fairness Cult but this seems like a pretty big deal for 4 digit teams. If a 3 digit team can have an 8" bumper and a 4 digit team needs a wider one, ... ...well... that kinda stinks.

Joe J.

4 digit teams managed on 8" of bumpers last year. It can be done.

[Jon Stratis]

4 digit teams managed on 8" of bumpers last year. It can be done.

And that was when a 3/4" stroke with was required... now we're down to 1/2" stroke width, per R31

[Chris is me]

I don't see how the rule is ambiguous at all. The rules clearly state you can split numbers as long as when you look at a robot you know it doesn't belong to, say, teams 39 or 58. (Ironically, these teams both exist)

Have you considered something like putting 39- on one side and -58 on the other? Hyphens might make it look less ambiguous.

That said, keep in mind you actually have 10.5" of bumper fabric to write your number on an 8" bumper.

[Joe Johnson]

I don't see how the rule is ambiguous at all. The rules clearly state you can split numbers as long as when you look at a robot you know it doesn't belong to, say, teams 39 or 58. (Ironically, these teams both exist)

Have you considered something like putting 39- on one side and -58 on the other? Hyphens might make it look less ambiguous.

That said, keep in mind you actually have 10.5" of bumper fabric to write your number on an 8" bumper.

Hyphens? If that works fine. What do others think?

Joe J.

[brrian27]

Don't do the split. We did a split last year over our floor pickup area, and ended up having to make ducttape numbers during inspection to fit them on one side. It won't get past inspection.

[CalTran]

Don't do the split. We did a split last year over our floor pickup area, and ended up having to make ducttape numbers during inspection to fit them on one side. It won't get past inspection.

The restriction on split numbers was LAST YEAR. This year's rules clearly states that there is no restriction on split numbers, only that your numbers must be clear and unambiguous.

[jvriezen]

The restriction on split numbers was LAST YEAR. This year's rules clearly states that there is no restriction on split numbers, only that your numbers must be clear and unambiguous.

If you have a gap of 16 inches between the split numbers, and your robot is partially obscured by a field element or other robot so that I can't see the other two digits (but can see the gap), then you have ambiguity.

8" of bumper plus the corner space of 3.25" is 11.25 of space. At .5" stroke, with 1" gap between digits, that only takes about 9". And there is a .75 stroke font we created and used last year that also fit nicely on a minimal bumper. It is free to use for any team:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2630

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Joe,
We have used split numbers for years without too much trouble. Last year the GDC introduced the change thinking it would help in refs doing the real time scoring. So you can do whatever is easiest for your team. With a team number like 3958, refs should not have a hard time figuring it out. The team numbers I pointed out above could be confusing if both teams 22 and 2222 competed in the same event and 2222 split their numbers. The eight inch rule was actually established by calculating the width needed to fit "8888" on a bumper with the corner added.
Now if you are like me/us (WildStang) we have a hard enough time coloring inside the lines and getting the team number right side up!

[Joe Ross]

If you have a gap of 16 inches between the split numbers, and your robot is partially obscured by a field element or other robot so that I can't see the other two digits (but can see the gap), then you have ambiguity.

How is that more ambiguous then a robot with contiguous bumper numbers when 2 numbers are obscured by field element?

The blue box reference is correct, numbers can be split with the clear intent that numbers be "unambiguous so that Judges, Referees, Announcers, and other Teams can easily identify competing ROBOTS." This may be difficult for teams with numbers 22, 2222, 11, 1111, etc. I tell teams when asked, "you want to play on Saturday, right? Then you have to be sure you can be identified from the stands."

I can see it being an issue for a team 1111 in which the numbers are all split, however, on a normal robot with contiguous numbers on 3 sides and split numbers on the front, that doesn't seem like an issue.

[Jon Stratis]

Joe,
We have used split numbers for years without too much trouble. Last year the GDC introduced the change thinking it would help in refs doing the real time scoring. So you can do whatever is easiest for your team. With a team number like 3958, refs should not have a hard time figuring it out. The team numbers I pointed out above could be confusing if both teams 22 and 2222 competed in the same event and 2222 split their numbers. The eight inch rule was actually established by calculating the width needed to fit "8888" on a bumper with the corner added.
Now if you are like me/us (WildStang) we have a hard enough time coloring inside the lines and getting the team number right side up!

So, when you use split numbers, how does WildStang split them? 1 and 11, or do you chop the middle 1 in half? :p :p :p

[Jared Russell]

Now if you are like me/us (WildStang) we have a hard enough time coloring inside the lines and getting the team number right side up!

Yep, getting "111" right side up definitely sounds like a challenge. :)

[MARS_James]

I am not part of the Fairness Cult but this seems like a pretty big deal for 4 digit teams. If a 3 digit team can have an 8" bumper and a 4 digit team needs a wider one, ... ...well... that kinda stinks.

Joe J.

http://www.floridafirstregional.com/slides/2012/Field/L/IMG_1726.JPG

We had no problem with fitting all 4 of our numbers on an 8" bumper last year

[Qbot2640]

I am not part of the Fairness Cult but this seems like a pretty big deal for 4 digit teams. If a 3 digit team can have an 8" bumper and a 4 digit team needs a wider one, ... ...well... that kinda stinks.

Joe J.

It's not a big deal at all - we're 2640...all four of our digits are "full size" so to speak (no 1's) and it is no problem at all making it fit nicely in 8 inches of bumper...and as the OP stated, they have 11.25.

I VERY STRONGLY advise against this split. Last year we had to totally re-construct our front and rear bumper at Championship over an interpretation that was just as "trivial." Five out of six judges said it was fine...the sixth wouldn't budge, so rather than spend our first day on more meaningful adjustments our "advance pit crew" rebuilt bumpers that had been acceptable at Regional. Do you really want to risk the loss of valuable time like that?

[rsisk]

Five out of six judges said it was fine...

inspectors wear yellow hats
Referees wear striped shirts
Judges wear blue polo shirts

If judges were telling you your bumpers were wrong, go find an inspector and set them straight

[EricLeifermann]

I'm assuming that the split is only on the front/back of the robot. If that is the case the left/right sides will have their numbers easily seen and all continuous. There are numbers on 4 sides on the robot, if you are having trouble seeing the number from 1 side wait 5 sec and odds are the robot will turn and you will see a different side. The rules this year allow split numbers so I wouldn't worry about splitting your numbers over 2 bumpers. There is also no rule that says if your bumpers are covered by something during a match that you still have to be able to read them.

That said 2826 isn't splitting our numbers over our bumpers.

[Qbot2640]

inspectors wear yellow hats
Referees wear striped shirts
Judges wear blue polo shirts

If judges were telling you your bumpers were wrong, go find an inspector and set them straight

I mis-spoke - they were "inspectors" during the initial check-in inspection.

Still my main point - it is not worth the risk.

[Alan Anderson]

Five out of six judges inspectors said it was fine...the sixth wouldn't budge,...

If the sixth inspector was the Lead Robot Inspector, it's his or her job to make the final decision. All the other inspectors defer to the LRI's "opinion".

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I VERY STRONGLY advise against this split. Last year we had to totally re-construct our front and rear bumper at Championship over an interpretation that was just as "trivial."
Last year there was no wiggle in the interpretation, they could not be split. This year there is a easy interpretation of the rule and split numbers are legal.
Al

[Taylor]

Now if you are like me/us (WildStang) we have a hard enough time coloring inside the lines
Ahhhh. Now we know why they tie-dye!

[Qbot2640]

Last year there was no wiggle in the interpretation, they could not be split. This year there is a easy interpretation of the rule and split numbers are legal.
Al

I apologize for not being completely clear - the "last year issue" I refer to had nothing to do with split team numbers. The "Lead Inspector" in our situation did not make an immediate decision, attempting to see if consensus would develop, when it did not, he supported the decision of the original inspector. It was our team's distinct impression, however, that he would not have found issue with the situation otherwise.

I am only trying to make the point that there are some times when an interpretation of rules goes a direction you do not expect or possibly agree with. It has seemed to me (and to many others I have spoken with) that inspectors often get a bit zealous with bumper rules. Given how easy it is to fit the numbers neatly on the right or left corner bumper (as demonstrated by the nice 1523 photo above), I would not push my luck on this one. It is much easier to come up with an attractive compromise in the team's robot shop with time and tools and materials, than in an 8X8 pit with the pressure of competition looming and a travel-size subset of team's resources.

[Steve W]

This year if the numbers are split, I as an LRI, would allow according to the present rules. I would suggest that the numbers be close to each other on the sides of the opening. If on opposite sides of the bumper, it would be allowed but as Al said, do you want to be playing Saturday afternoon. If teams miss your number then you may not be chosen.

[toastnbacon]

I would do all that you can to not split your numbers, but if there's no other option, I would split per the xx- -yy option. I think it would be legal (this year) either way. However, all the other pragmatic reasons still stand. It'll be easier for spectators and judges (or refs or whomever) to see, and at the end of the day, that's what matters most. It's the objective of the rules, and if it's achieved, I think the inspectors will let it pass.

That being said, my ruling isn't law. I'll send you a grain of salt later.

[Steve W]

Remember that numbers can be on your bumpers. The - - after and before may not. Al, what's your say?

[DonRotolo]

I am not part of the Fairness Cult but this seems like a pretty big deal for 4 digit teams. If a 3 digit team can have an 8" bumper and a 4 digit team needs a wider one, ... ...well... that kinda stinks.
So, in conclusion, why not try to fit all 4 digits onto one bumper-ette?

1/2" stroke width means 1.5" wide numbers. 1/2" space betwixt means 2" per digit, 4 x 2 = 8, you have the space. Of course you can, and then there's no issue.

Isn't that part of problem solving? If the issue causing the problem goes away, so does the problem?

[Al Skierkiewicz]

James,
Is your example suggesting the use of dashes in the team number?

[Qbot2640]

The smaller size bumper segments in the photo are 11.25" - (8" plus the 3.25" wrap around the corner).

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