View Full Version : Extending above 60"
I'm really looking forward to seeing a bit of a rock-paper-scissors game play out this year. It seems to me that a full court shooter sitting in its loading zone that can drain their alliance's frisbee supply into the top goal is going to dominate this game most of the time in qualifiers. But in elimination matches, they're going to get shut down if an opposing robot has the ability to extend their robot high enough to block those shots. If there's enough defense out there, then climbing looks good by comparison since it's hard to defend against.
So my question is, are there robots out there that have this capability to extend upwards for defensive purposes? It's a risk to build something like that, but I think those robots are going to get snapped up in alliance selections this year.
MrForbes
17-02-2013, 21:15
It seems to me that a full court shooter sitting in its loading zone that can drain their alliance's frisbee supply into the top goal is going to dominate this game most of the time in qualifiers
..............
It's a risk to build something like that, but I think those robots are going to get snapped up in alliance selections this year.
Seems to me (and you, apparently) that those robots will be doing the picking.
tinybob20
17-02-2013, 21:37
Speaking from a team with (potentially) a full court shooter, I can see these types of defense bots being quite annoying. We could easily get shut down by a bot just sitting in-front of us, with a shield raised. But I could also see us potentially breaking a robot, just from our Frisbee speed/impact force.
cmrnpizzo14
17-02-2013, 21:58
Speaking from a team with (potentially) a full court shooter, I can see these types of defense bots being quite annoying. We could easily get shut down by a bot just sitting in-front of us, with a shield raised. But I could also see us potentially breaking a robot, just from our Frisbee speed/impact force.
How strong is your shooter looking right now? Also, it is nice to throw them hard, but are you accurate at all?
ehfeinberg
17-02-2013, 22:18
Speaking from a team with (potentially) a full court shooter, I can see these types of defense bots being quite annoying. We could easily get shut down by a bot just sitting in-front of us, with a shield raised.
With a full court shooter, a tall robot would put a damper to our strategy. If a tall robot does get in our way, we could easily move to the pyramid hot spot. It would just take more time.
But I could also see us potentially breaking a robot, just from our Frisbee speed/impact force.
Same with us. Our shooter caused my hands to sting when catching discs from over 75 feet away.
How strong is your shooter looking right now? Also, it is nice to throw them hard, but are you accurate at all?
Our shooter is about 50% from the feeder station into the high goal (upwards of 75% when shooting into the middle). We are also about 75% into the top goal when shooting into the high goal from the pyramid sweet spot.
Speaking from a team with (potentially) a full court shooter, I can see these types of defense bots being quite annoying. We could easily get shut down by a bot just sitting in-front of us, with a shield raised. But I could also see us potentially breaking a robot, just from our Frisbee speed/impact force.
A deflector can have a pretty good slope to it. It doesn't have to completely block the frisbee.
AllenGregoryIV
18-02-2013, 03:38
We can get up high. Our most recent blog post has pictures of our robot and practice/prototype robot fully extended.
http://3847.blogspot.com/ (http://3847.blogspot.com/2013/02/day-44-two-days-two-robots.html)
We had the idea of blocking full court shooters pretty early on. The horns at the top of the lift get to 83.75".
The robot is as stable as the robot I worked on in 2011 for Logomotion. It would tip if we accelerated full throttle (6 CIMS) at full height but not if a we were just pushed in the bumper zone. We also have bumpers plus 20 more pounds of weight to add to the frame.
1629GaCo
18-02-2013, 08:56
1629 GaCo has the ability to extend to 84" to block shots.
We've noticed that many (most?) bots have their shooters pretty low. Our bot does not extend but it is 60" high and we think we will be able to interfere with a number of shooters.
Andrei1559
18-02-2013, 17:55
Speaking from a team with (potentially) a full court shooter, I can see these types of defense bots being quite annoying. We could easily get shut down by a bot just sitting in-front of us, with a shield raised. But I could also see us potentially breaking a robot, just from our Frisbee speed/impact force.
Our shooter is SOOO much better than yours. We can climb three levels faster than you ever could. In fact I regret working with you. Love you Jeremy!
tinybob20
18-02-2013, 18:00
How strong is your shooter looking right now? Also, it is nice to throw them hard, but are you accurate at all?
Currently, we don't have a good bearing on how accurate our shooter is, but it does seem to hit a foot to half a foot radius circle at 50ft. As for how powerful it is, we can put a pretty nice dent in drywall at 20ft.
It is incredibly hard to break a robot. I'd guess that a 1/32nd polycarb shield, swiss cheesed, and attached to thin angle, could hold against a 100mph frisbee shot no problem.
Andrew Lawrence
18-02-2013, 22:16
So my question is, are there robots out there that have this capability to extend upwards for defensive purposes? It's a risk to build something like that, but I think those robots are going to get snapped up in alliance selections this year.
A risk? How is making a simple deflector that goes up and down a risk? In my opinion, an effective deflector can rise up, shut down a single shooter, and be on its merry way. No risk. No challenge. Maybe an hour's worth of work on your robot. It's no risk, and can make allow your robot to shut down the offensive strength (and possibly game piece feeding) of an entire alliance.
TeraViks
26-02-2013, 01:14
Break the robot? We did the ultimate test, not on purpose mind you. I'm trying to get my marketing team to let me post the video of our bot climbing to level 3, dumping the colored disks, then falling from above the top of pyrimid. The next video shows the bot being righted and going off to shoot more disks! We drank our own Koolaid and followed the Robot Delivery Life Cycle.
We thought this from the beginning.
We went with a shooter/climber combo that would let us
1) Shoot cross court
2) Climb 30 pts
and
3) Play defense.
The climber extends to the max height in order to block shots.
Couple this with our mecanum drive, and its hard for anyone to get around our D.
Bryce2471
26-02-2013, 02:21
I think our robot is the best fit to this part of the game.
桧ur shooter is mounted at 60 inches.
標e can shoot over one hundred feet.
標e have roughly a 90% accuracy from the feeder station into the three pt goal.
標e have many strategies for deterring blocker robots.
標e have near 100% accuracy from anywhere else.
標e have an effective, two sided, floor intake.
標e have an 84 inch blocker.
標e top it off with a quick, 10 pt hang, and shoot 4 last Frisbees wile we hang.
mschwab013
26-02-2013, 08:58
Unless I'm reading the rules wrong, (which I very well may be), wouldn't an 84 in blocker be illegal per G22 simply because you wont be touching your own pyramid while blocking shots?
G22
ROBOT height (as defined in relation to the ROBOT) must be restricted as follows during the MATCH:
If in contact with the carpet in its AUTO ZONE and/or its PYRAMID, ≤ 84 in.
Otherwise, ≤ 60 in.
I expect 60->84" blocker boards being a popular saturday lunchtime addition to weak 2nd pick robots at shallow regionals.
Saberbot
26-02-2013, 09:27
Unless I'm reading the rules wrong, (which I very well may be), wouldn't an 84 in blocker be illegal per G22 simply because you wont be touching your own pyramid while blocking shots?
Check out the definition of AUTO ZONE. Your opponents feeder stations are in you AUTO ZONE.
EricLeifermann
26-02-2013, 09:40
I think our robot is the best fit to this part of the game.
桧ur shooter is mounted at 60 inches.
標e can shoot over one hundred feet.
標e have roughly a 90% accuracy from the feeder station into the three pt goal.
標e have many strategies for deterring blocker robots.
標e have near 100% accuracy from anywhere else.
標e have an effective, two sided, floor intake.
標e have an 84 inch blocker.
標e top it off with a quick, 10 pt hang, and shoot 4 last Frisbees wile we hang.
Sounds like you have a great robot! I look forward to seeing your robot do all of this in a match.
dchartley
26-02-2013, 11:03
Unless I'm reading the rules wrong, (which I very well may be), wouldn't an 84 in blocker be illegal per G22 simply because you wont be touching your own pyramid while blocking shots?
I thought the same thing, to exceed 60" you must be in contact with your pyramid. The "and/or" makes touching the pyramid a requirement. You can touch the Auto Zone and the pyramid in which case the robot would be on the floor or just the pyramid, as in climbing.
Doug
I thought the same thing, to exceed 60" you must be in contact with your pyramid. The "and/or" makes touching the pyramid a requirement. You can touch the Auto Zone and the pyramid in which case the robot would be on the floor or just the pyramid, as in climbing.
No, the word "or" makes touching the pyramid optional. That's what the word means. I may have missed a Q&A, though - is there one that makes touching the pyramid a requirement?
Unless I'm reading the rules wrong, (which I very well may be), wouldn't an 84 in blocker be illegal per G22 simply because you wont be touching your own pyramid while blocking shots?
When defending a slot/full court shooter the defender in his auto zone and may be 84", while the shooter may only be 60". This is one reason slot shooting will be easily defended. It would only succeed if the opposing alliance simply allowed it, or failed to prepare for the match.
dchartley
26-02-2013, 12:34
No, the word "or" makes touching the pyramid optional. That's what the word means. I may have missed a Q&A, though - is there one that makes touching the pyramid a requirement?
When I read the rule I thought that the reason to exceed 60" was to make climbing possible and that was why the pyramid contact was put in the rule. Otherwise why not just say "While in your auto zone"? I put in a Q&A on G22, we'll see what they say.
Doug
I expect 60->84" blocker boards being a popular saturday lunchtime addition to weak 2nd pick robots at shallow regionals.
The robot need not be a weak 2nd pick nor the regional shallow. Preventing 90 points of slot shots is a worthy role for any robot at any event.
Saberbot
26-02-2013, 12:46
When I read the rule I thought that the reason to exceed 60" was to make climbing possible and that was why the pyramid contact was put in the rule. Otherwise why not just say "While in your auto zone"? I put in a Q&A on G22, we'll see what they say.
Doug
A team could be touching the backside of their pyramid without touching their autozone.
Swampdude
26-02-2013, 13:03
I think it's smart for any team to bring along some pvc, a tall cylinder or spring loaded gizmo and some fabric to pop up a blocker. In case your shooter or hanger breaks between matches etc. you're still very useful.
TikiTech
26-02-2013, 13:04
We here at team 3880 saw the full field shooters as a threat and designed to be passively defensive. Our arm tower is close to 60" high with thick Lexan protecting all sides. As well as actively defensive with our shooter arm. It raises up to 82" and is also Lexan covered. That coupled with a mecanum drive and a fast floor gathering system expect to block and shoot those blocked shots!
Looking forward to some very exciting matches...
martin417
26-02-2013, 13:16
Here is the definition for the auto zone from the game manual.
AUTO ZONE: an area on either end of the FIELD bounded by the ALLIANCE WALL, FEEDER STATIONS, LOW GOAL, GUARDRAILS, and the nearest AUTO LINE.
If your robot is touching the carpet anywhere in this defined zone, it my be </= 84" tall.
we built a shot blocker yesterday, but of course it hasn't been tested on the actual bot. maybe it will work and maybe not. maybe we will have time to install it or maybe not.
our shot blocker is made of flexible fiberglass rod. it is pretty flimsy. it does not attempt to actually stop the shot, just deflect it enough so that it misses!
GaryVoshol
26-02-2013, 18:23
"and/or" is logically meaningless. It is only put into documents by people who don't know "or" means one or the other or both. Or maybe they think their audience doesn't know.
Touching the pyramid or touching the carpet in your auto zone, you can extend to 84".
our shot blocker is made of flexible fiberglass rod. it is pretty flimsy. it does not attempt to actually stop the shot, just deflect it enough so that it misses!
Excellent idea. Did you consider a couple of rods, so that your placement doesn't have to be exact, and doesn't have to keep moving as the shooter moves?
dchartley
26-02-2013, 19:49
"and/or" is logically meaningless. It is only put into documents by people who don't know "or" means one or the other or both. Or maybe they think their audience doesn't know.
.
Which exactly why it needs to be clarified.
Excellent idea. Did you consider a couple of rods, so that your placement doesn't have to be exact, and doesn't have to keep moving as the shooter moves?
That's why a full court shot blocker is so easy, it does not need to be wide because the shooter CAN'T move. Once their aim is tweaked in, you need only deflect the shot slightly to shut it down.
Garrett.d.w
26-02-2013, 21:17
Our robot was going to be a dedicated climber/dumper, until the delay in shipping on our pistons cost us precious tweaking time. This resulted in our robot having a vertical side that is 54 inches off the ground and faced with hard nylon. Perfect built in blocker for playing D against the "average" cross field robot.
Maybe the setback earlier this season will help us more than it hurt :rolleyes:
Wayne TenBrink
27-02-2013, 00:47
We added an extendable finger (nicknamed "the bird) to our pickup arm at the last minute as an insurance policy. We don't want to spend a lot of time playing defense, but I would hate to sit by while a tall full court shooter (or a short one with a strategically placed partner) ate our lunch.
Robots like this are out there somewhere, these teams that shoot full court may even pick them just so they dont have to play against them... Let's also remember that a blocking extension could be easily added to a second pick robot, so they may not even be widely used until later on in the season. Based on what I'm seeing here at Lubbock, nearly everyone is trying to shoot, but some are better than others and after week 1 many will convert to defense, which they are already starting to do here.
Wayne TenBrink
02-03-2013, 23:39
We added an extendable finger (nicknamed "the bird) to our pickup arm at the last minute as an insurance policy. We don't want to spend a lot of time playing defense, but I would hate to sit by while a tall full court shooter (or a short one with a strategically placed partner) ate our lunch.
At Traverse City, there were 3 full-court shooters - two "short" and one "tall" (as defined by whether or not they could effectively be blocked by a 60" robot). On Friday, they pretty much had there way and nobody seemed interested in blocking them. Today was a different story, and by eliminations there were makeshift extensions to 60" on several robots. A 60" bot can't block a tall bot unless they get right in their face, which is difficult when there is counterdefense and invites penalties. Its easy to attach a stick or two to a robot, but its harder to make something that raises the extra 24 inches after the start of the match (I'm sure somebody will find a good way).
We got to use "the bird" twice with some success. We only physically stopped a couple of discs, but both times the shooter abandoned the feeder zone.
Kevin Leonard
04-03-2013, 21:21
See I can't see anything in the rules or the Q&A that says you can't start a match at 84 as long as your robot can go down to 60 later. Am I missing something, or is my assumption correct?
See I can't see anything in the rules or the Q&A that says you can't start a match at 84 as long as your robot can go down to 60 later. Am I missing something, or is my assumption correct?
There's nothing that says you have to go to 60" later as long as you stay in your auto zone or keep touching the pyramid. We added some height to 4102 in Hub City for our match against the only full-court shooter there (2468; nice folks; we hated to do it to them :D); see the pic attached to http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1242828&postcount=61
Kevin Leonard
12-03-2013, 21:25
So does the bot HAVE to be able to go back down to 60", or can it stay that high as long as it stays in it's auto zone?
I feel like I read that the bots have to have the ability to go down to 60- at least for inspection.
It shouldn't matter for our bot, but that's something that might be useful for an alliance partner at CT or Champs.
Or maybe it will matter for us- you never know ;)
EDIT: Sorry Jaxom, I didn't read your reply carefully enough.
engunneer
12-03-2013, 21:33
So does the bot HAVE to be able to go back down to 60", or can it stay that high as long as it stays in it's auto zone?
I feel like I read that the bots have to have the ability to go down to 60- at least for inspection.
It shouldn't matter for our bot, but that's something that might be useful for an alliance partner at CT or Champs.
Or maybe it will matter for us- you never know ;)
The previous reply answers your question exactly.
There's nothing that says you have to go to 60" later as long as you stay in your auto zone or keep touching the pyramid.
geomapguy
12-03-2013, 21:42
I think a good example of trying to block shots has to 3847 against 148 in the 2nd Finals Match at Lone Star. If only their battery would've stayed in on the 1st Match.
Iaquinto.Joe
12-03-2013, 22:19
At waterford our team added a shot blocker made out of a cardboard pizza box and scrap plastic before the quarter finals and it won us a match.
techvikesmom
12-03-2013, 22:38
2054 blocked 8 shots on a tall bot in the finals at Gull Lake District.
Their attachment helped their alliance win that match!!
pntbll1313
12-03-2013, 22:52
In the bragging rights match that pitted the winner of the Lake Superior Regional vs the Northern Lights Regional winners our alliance added 84inch tall bars onto team 4011 and taped them together. They were able to play some good defense on a great 2169 KingTec full court shooter well enough that we were able to win the match.
It was pretty funny because when we picked 4011 they weren't too tall so we made them 60" to win the regional (there were no tall full courters in our regional), then we added another 2 feet just for the match against KingTec. We couldn't even get the robot through most of the gates without adjusting things haha.
vBulletin® v3.6.4, Copyright ©2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.