Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters

[Andrew Lawrence]

After this long weekend of scrimmages and week 0 competitions, I've found that robots that can shoot full-court from the human-player stations to be not only common, but really well-done as well. Accurate robots with the ability to dry out a human player of their 45 frisbees in about a minute and a half were everywhere (maybe it's just me, but they were very common).

Now that there's a larger portion of teams able to make full-court shots, how special will it be to do so? Will shooting full court be a commonality found in a lot of robots? Will blocking shots from said teams become a viable strategy?

[tomy]

My team can do full-court shots and we found that if anyone tries to block us they end up touching us which is a penalty and if they stay the penalties add up and double for pining

[cmrnpizzo14]

Being able to block those shots will be a viable strategy in my opinion. It will be very tough, especially if the shooting teams are clever, but a robot that can extend up will be important. The question isn't necessarily CAN you shoot full court but HOW WELL can you do it. I see some teams supposedly being able to do it but not hitting more than 50%. If there is a team that can hit 80% or higher, they will be extremely deadly.

It will come down to the other things that those alliances can do, namely auto and climbing. Floor acquisition could be a game changer, especially in auto. A 30 point climber with a dumper could also be a huge deal. I don't think we have seen enough in week 0 to really tell how the game will go. I know, at least in the Finger Lakes area, that there are still a lot of teams looking extremely mediocre and probably several that are not showing their hands yet.

Also, how many teams have you actually seen in person shooting reliably full court?

[MARS_James]

Now that there's a larger portion of teams able to make full-court shots, how special will it be to do so? Will shooting full court be a commonality found in a lot of robots? Will blocking shots from said teams become a viable strategy?

I think it still will be special since with the robots seen over the weekend were not a significant representation of all 2000+ robots involved with FRC.

If I have a defense bot on our alliance that would be who I would recommend blocking, that being said if I had 3 robots who were 3 point scorers, that would mean we would only need 10 disks scored a piece to completely offset all the points the full court shooter getting all 45 into the 2 point goal (since that is where most of the full court bots I saw shot.)

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

I think their will be a lot of teams capable of shooting full court but it will be very special to do it accurately. I also think that their will be a special place for them on an elimination alliance. For example, two full court shooting robots would end up being the same as one full court shooter and a regular shooter assuming they are both accurate and consistent.

[Andrew Lawrence]

Also, how many teams have you actually seen in person shooting reliably full court?

I've lost count of the teams able to do full-court shots. While this does include a lot of teams with a 50-60% accuracy, I've seen many teams reach 90-95%, my own included (and we don't usually do that well).

One observation I've seen is that from the robots that have been shown (or that have been observed at private scrimmages), even average-joe teams can learn to make full-court shots easily once they tune their shooter.

[Donut]

A question on this since I didn't make it out to a scrimmage; how tall are most of these robots? Are most of the full court shooters already coming out around 60", so a team would need to raise up to block them? Or could a tall robot just park in front of them to block shots like this?

I still question how much this will happen in competition until I see it in week 1 (you know, defense and all), but I'd like to start brainstorming on an extension mechanism for our robot now after build ends rather than Friday of the regional if it's needed.

[Andrew Lawrence]

A question on this since I didn't make it out to a scrimmage; how tall are most of these robots? Are most of the full court shooters already coming out around 60", so a team would need to raise up to block them? Or could a tall robot just park in front of them to block shots like this?

I still question how much this will happen in competition until I see it in week 1 (you know, defense and all), but I'd like to start brainstorming on an extension mechanism for our robot now after build ends rather than Friday of the regional if it's needed.

I've seen tall ones, I've seen shorter ones (such as ours). It all varies.

[XaulZan11]

Does anyone else think these full court shooters are 'bad' for Ultimate Assent?

That being said, I've never been one to turn down a boring or ugly win.

[cjl2625]

So could someone just simply lurk in the corner and intake/fire frisbees nonstop?

[mikemat]

Does anyone else think these full court shooters are 'bad' for Ultimate Assent?

I could see a match with 2 of these teams in a face-off becoming boring, but once teams realize how deadly they are, we'll see plenty of teams trying to block them. Personally, I can see these robots loosing effectiveness as the season progresses.

[Anupam Goli]

If teams are relying on this for their strategy, then they will have a bad time. Any robot that is sufficiently tall just has to stand in front of them to put some sort of pressure on them. Heck, my team has an arm that can be raised to the height that most shooters sit at.

[mikemat]

If teams are relying on this for their strategy, then they will have a bad time. Any robot that is sufficiently tall just has to stand in front of them to put some sort of pressure on them. Heck, my team has an arm that can be raised to the height that most shooters sit at.

I think many teams went away from this strategy for that reason. I'm curious to see if the "Cross-court blocker" will become a robot class come selection time.

[JohnSchneider]

I think many teams went away from this strategy for that reason. I'm curious to see if the "Cross-court blocker" will become a robot class come selection time.

It doesnt need to even be a class. "Robot with sufficient space to mount a blocker over lunch" is the class ;)

[Andrew Lawrence]

If teams are relying on this for their strategy, then they will have a bad time. Any robot that is sufficiently tall just has to stand in front of them to put some sort of pressure on them. Heck, my team has an arm that can be raised to the height that most shooters sit at.

We've found with our relatively short robot, if anyone wants to get close enough to block us, we can easily rapid-foul them.

[JohnSchneider]

We've found with our relatively short robot, if anyone wants to get close enough to block us, we can easily rapid-foul them.

Because that's not a penalty in itself ;)

[mikemat]

Out of curiosity, do any of the full-court shooters know how far from the front of the robot your disks exceed the 84 inch mark?

[sammyjalex]

We've found with our relatively short robot, if anyone wants to get close enough to block us, we can easily rapid-foul them.

Can you explain what you mean by 'we can easily rapid-foul them?' If you sit in your LOADING ZONE and a robot in front of you is 60" tall, where is the foul?

If you attempt to 'draw the foul,' you'll run into G-18-1, no?

G18-1


Strategies aimed solely at forcing the opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule are not in the spirit of FRC and are not allowed. Rule violations forced in this manner will not result in assessment of a penalty on the target ALLIANCE .

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL

[BJC]

Assuming that a really good feeder slot shooter robot is shooting out from the 60" mark, the parabolic ark the disk would take is so high that only an 84" high robot will be able block it (and even then only when about 5ft or closer.)

Theoretically if the disks were to travel in a high arc so that they apexed 5-7ft above the high goal they would be impossible to block. It seems like this would result in much greater shot variation though.

[bgg]

Quick remedy for full court shooters--a low functioning robot starts 84" tall and its appendage/piece of plywood parks 18" in front of full court shooters and blocks 90+% of shots. The defensive bot can't leave out of its offensive zone but prevents any attempt at full court shooting. Perhaps a quick addition at lunchtime on Saturdays??

[Andrew Lawrence]

If you attempt to 'draw the foul,' you'll run into G-18-1, no?

But we're not the ones doing the action. It would involve our opponents coming towards us to block us, touching us, and getting fouled. If they want to block us, they foul us. That happened at a scrimmage today. We stand still, they come forwards and backwards. Would a team do this in a real match? Maybe. Not sure. I definitely wouldn't defend against a team I'm getting fouled on. But other teams may.

[Donut]

But we're not the ones doing the action. It would involve our opponents coming towards us to block us, touching us, and getting fouled. If they want to block us, they foul us. That happened at a scrimmage today. We stand still, they come forwards and backwards. Would a team do this in a real match? Maybe. Not sure. I definitely wouldn't defend against a team I'm getting fouled on. But other teams may.

Not to speak down of another team's performance, but that seems like poor defensive play more than anything else. I would think a proper block would be a team driving forward to block shots, and then just sitting there, while not contacting the full court shooter. Even if there is a single incident of contact, the blocker should back up slightly once so that there is no longer contact and stay still from there. A 3 point penalty is better than 50+ points uncontested. If the shooting robot then went forward/backward to draw penalties that would almost surely draw the ire of G18-1.

[Andrew Lawrence]

Not to speak down of another team's performance, but that seems like poor defensive play more than anything else. I would think a proper block would be a team driving forward to block shots, and then just sitting there, while not contacting the full court shooter. Even if there is a single incident of contact, the blocker should back up slightly once so that there is no longer contact and stay still from there. A 3 point penalty is better than 50+ points uncontested. If the shooting robot then went forward/backward to draw penalties that would almost surely draw the ire of G18-1.

Oh, it definitely wasn't the best defense (we were sure to let them know the fouls they were incurring, and helped them develop a better defensive strategy), however the point was it could happen. If they wanted to defend us, they needed to incur a foul. Teams need to be 100% sure they don't touch an opponent while they're in the feeding station if they want to play defense this year.

[dtengineering]

Ooh... the "Hassle bot".

A highly maneuverable machine equipped with rangefinders and programmed to maintain a constant distance from and opponent. You pull up to within a foot of a full court shooter, and when they try and bump into you and draw the foul, your robot automatically backs out of the way. There's still a day left... quick... get building!

Actually I'm thinking that the deflector fan ideas that were quickly written off in the first couple weeks might actually be really useful against a full-court shooter. The fans might not be able to move the frisbees much, but a small deflection would add up over a long distance, perhaps.

It will be interesting to see what shows up in the withholding allowances after week one!

Jason

[Ian Curtis]

I've lost count of the teams able to do full-court shots. While this does include a lot of teams with a 50-60% accuracy, I've seen many teams reach 90-95%, my own included (and we don't usually do that well).

I could believe 60 percent. I'll believe 41/45 when I see a video of it. If you wanna hide your shooter that's cool, just a video of the goal with 41 out of 45 Frisbees will he enough.

I don't doubt that there are 469s out there, but I do doubt that every event will have one.

[Anupam Goli]

Ooh... the "Hassle bot".


It will be interesting to see what shows up in the withholding allowances after week one!
Jason
I'm going to take a random guess and say a 10 pt. climbing mechanism for most, and a 30 point for the others ;)

[Negative 9]

I wonder how many teams can shoot at the pyramid goal accurately from the feeder station. Those guys are going to be the real winners.

[gurellia53]

Does anyone else think these full court shooters are 'bad' for Ultimate Assent?

That being said, I've never been one to turn down a boring or ugly win.

I though this at first too, but as mentioned earlier, many full court shooters are easy to defend. Full court shooting increases the value of a tall defender robot strategy. In qualifications, full court shooters could have an advantage of no one to defend them, but in eliminations I see them much less effective.

No, full court shooters are not bad for the game.

[T^2]

Seems like a good year for a fanbot...

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

I forgot to ask but are their any videos from the scrimmages of a robot lining up and making full court shots? I missed the webcasts and so if anyone had any that would be great.

[TheMadCADer]

I wonder how many teams can shoot at the pyramid goal accurately from the feeder station. Those guys are going to be the real winners.

Why do you say that? You're limited to just 30 points (6x coloured discs at 5 points each) doing that. Plus, not all of them will score every time, so you better have a floor pickup as well.

At that point, why not sit on your scoring side of the field and score tons of points from all the missed discs strewn about from the full court shooters? With a floor pickup and a deadly accurate shooter, shots from that close should be easy. If you can score 10 discs that way instead of 6 in the pyramid, you still get the same 30 points, but your upper limit is much higher.

[bduddy]

I'm just wondering if anyone built the mythical fan-bot - even a small blast of air to a long-distance shot will probably cause it to miss. That may be the best defense against these kinds of robots...

[dodar]

Does anyone else think these full court shooters are 'bad' for Ultimate Assent?

That being said, I've never been one to turn down a boring or ugly win.

Was 469 "bad" for Breakaway?

[Donut]

Was 469 "bad" for Breakaway?

I think that answer is going to vary with the individual. That goes for all "chokehold" or "game breaking" robots.

From the perspective of an average team facing off against a robot like that, I'd say yes. It's one thing to get steam rolled by an elite team because they just execute so much better than you do; it's quite another to know before the match the starts that your robot is physically incapable of beating an opponent regardless of execution. I think this is more applicable to a bot like 71 in 2002 where the match was over in the first 5 seconds if you were slower than them, at least 469 had to have a partner start scoring for them before they were unstoppable.

If very accurate (75%+) full court shooters are seen at regionals you have the same scenario as 2002 as a possibility. For an average alliance that cannot extend above 60" the match is over if they can't stop their opponent from reaching a feeder station in the first 10 seconds. For an elite alliance you have the potential for a very entertaining match as they now try to be more accurate than the full court shooter in the 3 vs 2 game they get to play. You could see a 150 to 180 match score if that happens.

[Anupam Goli]

I'm still not convinced of full court shooters being very effective. It takes just a simple amount of pressure to force the teams to misfire. From what i've seen, there's not much room for error either when full court shooting. The reason 469 was so effective was because there was room for error and it was actually hard to block their shots and/or pressure them. The teams that try this and don't tune their other systems will be ineffective once defense is applied even a little bit.

[EricLeifermann]

I've said it before and I still feel this way, unless full court shooters are against an alliance who are all too short to block them, they are going to have to be opportunistic. Get to the feeder station if no one is trying to block them start shooting full court until the other alliance notices, then fill up with 4 discs and drive to a closer/un-blockable location next to the pyramid. Then rinse and repeat.

[sdcantrell56]

I've said it before and I still feel this way unless full court shooters are against alliance who are all too short to block them, they are going to have to be opportunistic. Get to the feeder station if no one is trying to block them start shooting full court until the other alliance notices, then fill up with 4 discs and drive to a closer/un-blockable location next to the pyramid. Then rinse and repeat.

And this is coming from a team that appears to be incredibly accurate with full field shooting.

For what it's worth I agree 100%. The truly dangerous teams will be the ones who can pull off the full court shot while left alone but then when defended can quickly score 4 on the field. They will also preferably have floor pickup to reacquire the missed full court shots and not leave them for the other alliance to take out of play.

[Kevin Sevcik]

The protected zone in front of the double feeder station is only 20" wide. A decent first attempt at blocking a full court shooter is going to be beating them to the feeder station and camping sideways there so they just can't get to it. Then the defender has pinning rules on its side. A well designed and driven robot will eventually be able to get past this sort of defense, probably drawing a foul in the meantime, but it should cut a good 30 seconds or more off the time available to shoot.

Also, it's perfectly legal for a full court shooter to draw a G30 foul on a blocking robot by driving forward and touching the robot while still in contact with its loading zone. G30 doesn't care who initiates the contact. Mind you, this will throw off the full court shooter's aim, and the defender can get back into position while the shooter is lining back up...

[dodar]

Is the feeder zone like last year's lane, where there is an invisible wall projected upwards and you are considered protected even if you just have part of your robot over the zone?

[Kevin Sevcik]

Is the feeder zone like last year's lane, where there is an invisible wall projected upwards and you are considered protected even if you just have part of your robot over the zone?You're only protected if you're touching the carpet in the loading zone. That was actually the rule last year as well, you had to be in contact with the lane, key, or bridge.

[rsisk]

We will be happy to sit down court and scoop up all those missed shots and score them.

[Andrew Lawrence]

We will be happy to sit down court and scoop up all those missed shots and score them.

Now I wish we were going to IE. :( I'd love to be allianced with you guys as we shoot full court (or 3/4 court to avoid defense) and have an awesome robot pick up missed shots. It's a surefire way to know every frisbee entered into the field is scored.

[Feroz1325]

Though this strategy (full court shooting) is not a choke-hold strategy, if executed properly it could be close. Consider the elimination round alliance of a full court shooter, a robot with floor pickup and a third pick defensive bot....we will call them the red alliance.
The full court shooter could fire discs at the goal while the floor pickup bot could collect the missed disks. If a blue robot comes to block the shot, the red defensive bot could simply defend the blue defensive bot. This would require two robots from the blue alliance to defend the full court shooter and essentially make the match 1v1.
Do full court shooters ruin the game? No. They just add a new level of strategy, i know my team will be brainstorming ways to defeat (and work with) teams like this.

[Arpan]

I think that effectiveness will vary based on other factors. Many full court shooters i've seen are less than 30 inches tall. Another important factor is bouncing- it is extremely difficult to shoot full court shots with just the right amount of power so that they do not bounce from the goals.

Our team's been throwing around the idea of using off-the shelf items to build a 60 inch box around our alliance's defensive robot during elimination ( if we make it that far).

"Here, put this box on your robot. It'll make you better."

XD

[XaulZan11]

Was 469 "bad" for Breakaway?

I'm not sure this is a direct comparison. The 469's robot was hard to come up with and hard to design/build. Not every average team could have done it. The fact that there was one amazing team (and maybe 2 other very good teams with 51 and 125), that had the design makes it different. We have already seen/heard about countless teams that have sucessfully built full field shooters. Seems too easy for a potentially huge payout.

[theawesome1730]

Over the weekend we had close to 10 teams on our practice field and 2 of them were full court shooters and dead accurate. I think they will be common and will dominate the frisbee area. By week 6 climbing will decide the fate of matches more than anything else IMO

[4057programmer]

Here is our team's thread on full court shooting. A link to youtube of a full court shots are contained:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=113478

While at a scrimmage we were able to maintain an accuracy rating of almost 90% with the limited frisbees we had access to. The most we found to fire in a single round was 28 and we hit 24 of those. 2 of the missed shots were us lining up our robot. I don't have good video of that particular round, but I'm sure someone does. There were enough witnesses that someone must have that video.

[DampRobot]

I'm not sure this is a direct comparison. The 469's robot was hard to come up with and hard to design/build. Not every average team could have done it. The fact that there was one amazing team (and maybe 2 other very good teams with 51 and 125), that had the design makes it different. We have already seen/heard about countless teams that have sucessfully built full field shooters. Seems too easy for a potentially huge payout.

I agree 100%. The two situations really are different.

469 in 2010 executed a fundamentally innovative strategy that many teams wouldn't have been able to execute even if they had come up with it. It's not like no one thought of shooting from the feeding station this year, there were threads about it from the very first days of build season. That many teams have (apparently) executed this strategy proves that it is not extremely difficult.

Is it a good thing for FRC? I don't really think so. There will be a lot of these shooters, and if they are as common as they seem on CD, it seems like most matches will have one. Is watching a robot line up and do one repetitive task match after match really inspiring? I like seeing robots that drive around and pick up things. Opinions, of course, will differ on this point.

If they did decide that they wanted to "stop" full court shooters, what could Manchester do? They could make climbing worth a lot more, encouraging teams not to spend all the match at the feeder station and to make the shooting points worth a lot less. They could give penalties for staying at the feeder station more than, say, 20 seconds. They could also make all robots shoot from in front of a certain point.

But FIRST won't decide this. They tend to really want counterintuitive strategies to succeed, and do a lot to encourage strategic creativity. In any case, full court shooting was so clearly legal at the beginning of the build season that I don't think that they can do much in good faith to prevent it at this point. We shall see.

[tickspe15]

Today we tested our full court shooter and had acuracy above 90 percent we should have a video up Wednesday. The full court had a large window and was the easiest and fastest to line up with even without a camera

[Anupam Goli]

But FIRST won't decide this. They tend to really want counterintuitive strategies to succeed, and do a lot to encourage strategic creativity. In any case, full court shooting was so clearly legal at the beginning of the build season that I don't think that they can do much in good faith to prevent it at this point. We shall see.

I've already got a few strategies to prevent full court shooters from gaining much up my sleeve, but we'll see if it's needed at Palmetto.

Going for a full court shooter isn't an innovative approach. Teams have been trying to find the simplest way to win for as long as everyone remembers. However, becoming the next 71 from 02 or the next 469 from '10 takes A LOT of skill and guided effort. Maybe 1 or 2 teams can pull it off, but you'd better have a back up plan if your shooter gets defended.

[Jibri Wright]

I think that effectiveness will vary based on other factors. Many full court shooters i've seen are less than 30 inches tall. Another important factor is bouncing- it is extremely difficult to shoot full court shots with just the right amount of power so that they do not bounce from the goals.

Our team's been throwing around the idea of using off-the shelf items to build a 60 inch box around our alliance's defensive robot during elimination ( if we make it that far).

"Here, put this box on your robot. It'll make you better."

XD

U talking about our bot? Btw good to see you guys again at the Wildstang invitational.

[The_ShamWOW88]

What scares me the most about these robots is not their effectiveness but if we're allied with a bot that does this, we only load from the human player zone, not from the floor, so if they sit at a station and drain the 45 but only hit 50 - 60% of their shots, we won't be able to get any discs. Hopefully there will be an amicable way to split the amount of discs between all alliance partners.

[Ben Martin]

For those who attended the scrimmages, were the full-court shooters shooting for the two-point goals or the three-point goals ? In our experience, it was a lot easier to dial in on the two-pointer than on the three-pointer (though this may be due to inconsistencies in our "disposable" wheel and/or our feed). The vast majority of videos of full-court shooting while mounted to a robot that I have seen have been two-point shots.

[Chris is me]

For those who attended the scrimmages, were the full-court shooters shooting for the two-point goals or the three-point goals ? In our experience, it was a lot easier to dial in on the two-pointer than on the three-pointer (though this may be due to inconsistencies in our "disposable" wheel and/or our feed). The vast majority of videos of full-court shooting while mounted to a robot that I have seen have been two-point shots.

I've seen a team make all four in a row into the three point goal. They only tried a few times, but if they had it aimed right, it was consistent.

I really hope that enough teams bring 60/84" walls as a possible add on to their robot.

[Lil' Lavery]

From the perspective of an average team facing off against a robot like that, I'd say yes. It's one thing to get steam rolled by an elite team because they just execute so much better than you do; it's quite another to know before the match the starts that your robot is physically incapable of beating an opponent regardless of execution. I think this is more applicable to a bot like 71 in 2002 where the match was over in the first 5 seconds if you were slower than them, at least 469 had to have a partner start scoring for them before they were unstoppable.
Early in the season, your comments about 469 were true. By their second district, their kicking had improved substantially. Between going 2/2 in autonomous and pulling out of the tower if necessary, 469 could very easily "start the cycle" themselves.

Granted, the "cycle" would operate a much larger volume if their alliance partners added to it and maintained it.

Though this strategy (full court shooting) is not a choke-hold strategy, if executed properly it could be close. Consider the elimination round alliance of a full court shooter, a robot with floor pickup and a third pick defensive bot....we will call them the red alliance.
The full court shooter could fire discs at the goal while the floor pickup bot could collect the missed disks. If a blue robot comes to block the shot, the red defensive bot could simply defend the blue defensive bot. This would require two robots from the blue alliance to defend the full court shooter and essentially make the match 1v1.
Do full court shooters ruin the game? No. They just add a new level of strategy, i know my team will be brainstorming ways to defeat (and work with) teams like this.
This strategy could never be close to a chokehold, simply because the other alliance can mirror it. There's no scenario in which this strategy is a guaranteed win, regardless of your opponent's actions.

The only example of a chokehold strategy being executed in FRC history is moving all 3 goals into your scoring zone in 2002 (and ensuring none of your robots are in the opponent's end zone and not taking penalties). If you were successfully able to do that, it was literally impossible for your opponent to outscore you.

I'm not sure this is a direct comparison. The 469's robot was hard to come up with and hard to design/build. Not every average team could have done it. The fact that there was one amazing team (and maybe 2 other very good teams with 51 and 125), that had the design makes it different. We have already seen/heard about countless teams that have sucessfully built full field shooters. Seems too easy for a potentially huge payout.
2337 and 2992 also had ball deflectors that physically attached to the tower, but neither of them directed the balls at the goals.

[MagiChau]

I've seen a team make all four in a row into the three point goal. They only tried a few times, but if they had it aimed right, it was consistent.

I really hope that enough teams bring 60/84" walls as a possible add on to their robot.

Or possibly their climber ;)

[snowmobiler9]

I had a thought about this after our scrimmage last week. The long range shooters were hitting with about 50% accuracy. If one was paired with a floor pickup bot to "clean up" after the long range bot, the pair could be devestating.

Even if a long range team is hitting at 90%, the floor bot can grab some frisbees from the middle while he waits for some to accumilate by the goals.

A few 20-30 point hangs later and you have yourself a blue banner.

[NotaJoke]

What happens if a full court-shooting robot can ignore even the tallest or defense bots? What if there are two full court shooters on an alliance?

Personally, I think these situations will end in something similar to playing a match against the 'choke hold' shooting of 1717. "Keep them out of the key/away from the balls or lose."

6 cim drives are also going to be interesting.

[DMike]

How will that work when a full court shooter tells an accurate pyramid shooter that they can't have their 8-12 loader discs? This was certainly premeditated by FIRST and seems to me the essence of the game. Team work, negotiation = Gracious Professionalism. Most aspects of this game will be effected by an individual robots decision on how to play. I predict the most successful teams will take the I out of alliance.

[neshera]

Seems like a good year for a fanbot...

Check out this thread:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=113931

[Clinton Bolinger]

2337 and 2992 also had ball deflectors that physically attached to the tower, but neither of them directed the balls at the goals.

We could actually direct balls into the goals and they would score on occasions, depending on how the balls would come off of the return.

We prototyped our deflector/diverter on 469s practice field, which was ironic.

"Steal from the best, design the rest." but give credit at least.

-Clinton-

[JohnFogarty]

Then there are those full court shooters who take full advantage of the rules of the protected zone. ;)

[Lil' Lavery]

Then there are those full court shooters who take full advantage of the rules of the protected zone. ;)

Then there are those blocking robots who take full advantage of <G18-1>. ;)

[JohnSchneider]

Then there are those blocking robots who take full advantage of <G18-1>. ;)

I love the mass of people who don't understand that you trying to use the protected zone as a way of baiting your opponent is itself a foul.

[Anupam Goli]

I love the mass of people who don't understand that you trying to use the protected zone as a way of baiting your opponent is itself a foul.

I can't wait to see a "troll bot" whose only job is to stand 6 inches from the protective zone.

[EricLeifermann]

I love the mass of people who don't understand that you trying to use the protected zone as a way of baiting your opponent is itself a foul.

This is partially true as G30 states the opposite. That regardless of who initiates the contact. G18-1 will only prevent a team from hitting another robot repeatedly to take advantage of G30.

I would say that if you are close enough to be repeatedly hit with a G30 that you are WAY closer than you need to be to actually block a full court shot from most robots who can shoot full court.

[JohnSchneider]

The way I understand it,

If full-court-bot(FCB) is in the protected zone shooting , and defense bot (DB) comes to block its shot:

If FCB moves to go shoot at the pyramid and hits DB then the foul is DBs because FCB is just trying to play the game.

If FCB moves solely to trigger the penalty then goes back to shooting then the foul is on FCB because they aren't trying to play a game they're taking advantage of a rule (which is against the rules)

It's the "spirit and purpose of the rule" thing

[Andrew Lawrence]

The way I understand it,

If full-court-bot(FCB) is in the protected zone shooting , and defense bot (DB) comes to block its shot:

If FCB moves to go shoot at the pyramid and hits DB then the foul is DBs because FCB is just trying to play the game.

If FCB moves solely to trigger the penalty then goes back to shooting then the foul is on FCB because they aren't trying to play a game they're taking advantage of a rule (which is against the rules)

It's the "spirit and purpose of the rule" thing

Makes perfect sense to me, but how would an official know that FCB is just trying to get to the pyramid to make a shot? I guess by seeing that the bot goes to the pyramid, but that could still be considered intentional contact.

[JohnSchneider]

Makes perfect sense to me, but how would an official know that FCB is just trying to get to the pyramid to make a shot? I guess by seeing that the bot goes to the pyramid, but that could still be considered intentional contact.

There are a ton of discression based rules. Best to practice caution. But if I was a red and I saw FCB jerk forwards touch DB and then jerk back to shoot again I wouldn't call a foul on DB under the aforementioned guidelines

[Anupam Goli]

Makes perfect sense to me, but how would an official know that FCB is just trying to get to the pyramid to make a shot? I guess by seeing that the bot goes to the pyramid, but that could still be considered intentional contact.

At that point it would be a judgement call. if the referee saw an attempt to evade, then it would be unintentional, but if they rammed right into the bot, then that could be seen as intentional.

[JohnSchneider]

If the defense is not moving they shouldn't be eligible for a foul. From an interpretation standpoint.

Again we should keep in mind these are voulenteer s and so your results may varry and it may be best to air on the side of caution

[dodar]

If the defense is not moving they shouldn't be eligible for a foul. From an interpretation standpoint.

Again we should keep in mind these are voulenteer s and so your results may varry and it may be best to air on the side of caution

If the defense isnt moving, they are purposefully trying to impede the flow of the game; unless the robot is broke and/or e-stopped.

[JohnSchneider]

If the defense isnt moving, they are purposefully trying to impede the flow of the game; unless the robot is broke and/or e-stopped.


Then what other qualification do you use to determine if the full court shooter or the defender is committing the foul.

[dodar]

The way I understand it,

If full-court-bot(FCB) is in the protected zone shooting , and defense bot (DB) comes to block its shot:

If FCB moves to go shoot at the pyramid and hits DB then the foul is DBs because FCB is just trying to play the game.

If FCB moves solely to trigger the penalty then goes back to shooting then the foul is on FCB because they aren't trying to play a game they're taking advantage of a rule (which is against the rules)

It's the "spirit and purpose of the rule" thing

You use this. I dont see how this isnt easily understandable.

[EricLeifermann]

You use this. I dont see how this isnt easily understandable.


I can almost guarantee that it will be called the same way it was last year with the lanes and the key. If you are touching the pyramid or loading zone and someone is playing defense close enough by that you can touch them while still touching the loading zone or pyramid, they will get a penalty every time as long you don't abuse it and hit them repeatedly over and over in a short time span, that is when G18-1 will come into play and not a second sooner.

[dodar]

I can almost guarantee that it will be called the same way it was last year with the lanes and the key. If you are touching the pyramid or loading zone and someone is playing defense close enough by that you can touch them while still touching the loading zone or pyramid, they will get a penalty every time as long you don't abuse it and hit them repeatedly over and over in a short time span, that is when G18-1 will come into play and not a second sooner.

Exactly.

[JohnFogarty]

I enjoy the fact that I spawned a lot of speculation by what I meant in the "taking advantage of the protected zone rule." But I'll make it simple. No robot will be able to get within 23" of the shooting part of our robot within the protected zone. Speculate away.

[JesseK]

air pushers > slot loaded stationary disc shooters

All it takes is a waft of a strong breeze to throw the disc off just enough in its trajectory enough to be too high for a goal.

Oh yea, I almost forgot. Air pushers can be made compact enough to fit on robots which can also drive under the pyramid.

I suppose we'll see if any air pushing robots show up :rolleyes:

[JohnFogarty]

I'll wait until I see it happen, before I take your word for it. I figure it's possible, but I don't think I'll see one next weekend.

[EricLeifermann]

air pushers > slot loaded stationary disc shooters

All it takes is a waft of a strong breeze to throw the disc off just enough in its trajectory enough to be too high for a goal.

Oh yea, I almost forgot. Air pushers can be made compact enough to fit on robots which can also drive under the pyramid.

I suppose we'll see if any air pushing robots show up :rolleyes:

It looks like 2771 has a large fan on their robot.

[ablatner]

Something that some people seem to be missing is that it's only worth having one full court shooter per alliance. If you have two, then... the second one doesn't have a real job unless it has floor pickup or can play effective defense. During alliance selection, only one will be picked per alliance, and the other two may be dedicated to defense, floor pickup, and/or climbing. In essence, full court shooting only works for 1/3 of the teams. Same thing with climbing on the inside of the pyramid. Only one team per alliance can climb on the inside.

[EricLeifermann]

Something that some people seem to be missing is that it's only worth having one full court shooter per alliance. If you have two, then... the second one doesn't have a real job unless it has floor pickup or can play effective defense. During alliance selection, only one will be picked per alliance, and the other two may be dedicated to defense, floor pickup, and/or climbing. In essence, full court shooting only works for 1/3 of the teams. Same thing with climbing on the inside of the pyramid. Only one team per alliance can climb on the inside.

I don't agree. There are feeder stations on both sides of the field. If there are 2 full court shooters on an alliance put them on each side of the field and have the other alliance chose who to try and stop.

[cmrnpizzo14]

I don't agree. There are feeder stations on both sides of the field. If there are 2 full court shooters on an alliance put them on each side of the field and have the other alliance chose who to try and stop.

Only one is protected though, the other alliance will definitely stop the one that they can just bash into....

[EricLeifermann]

Only one is protected though, the other alliance will definitely stop the one that they can just bash into....

Thats fine, then they are wasting their time on that robot while the other robot is free to shoot. Are you really going to send 2 robots to play defense?

[cmrnpizzo14]

If there are 2 possible full court shooters, yes. Send both of the weaker offensive robots out to play defense and you leave yourself with only 1 robot that you have to beat to score.

[cmrnpizzo14]

Thats fine, then they are wasting their time on that robot while the other robot is free to shoot. Are you really going to send 2 robots to play defense?

If there are 2 potential full court shooters, yes. Send both of the weaker offensive robots to go play defense and you free yourself up to take the last 'bot one on one and score.

[sircedric4]

I don't agree. There are feeder stations on both sides of the field. If there are 2 full court shooters on an alliance put them on each side of the field and have the other alliance chose who to try and stop.

How does that work with the allotted frisbees? By splitting the court up and blocking one of the full court shooters did I just cut your score in half? I haven't looked at the frisbee rules much since it isn't really a big strategy concern in our case, but do can you run the remaining frisbees around to the other shooter?

If so, my blocking robot can tire out your human player by swapping to the other robot as soon as he sees them trying to move frisbess over there.

[c-sechrist94]

Amidst all the talk about full court shooters, how to defend against them, and how to counter that defense, I have also seen people mentioning that these shooters are quite powerful. On another thread, it was mentioned that a shooter could dent drywall significantly at 20 feet away, and that catching one at 75 feet stung somebody's hands.

Are any of you worried that your shooter could be so powerful that the Frisbee will contact the chains during the game and simply bounce back out, especially once they start swinging?

[EricLeifermann]

Amidst all the talk about full court shooters, how to defend against them, and how to counter that defense, I have also seen people mentioning that these shooters are quite powerful. On another thread, it was mentioned that a shooter could dent drywall significantly at 20 feet away, and that catching one at 75 feet stung somebody's hands.

Are any of you worried that your shooter could be so powerful that the Frisbee will contact the chains during the game and simply bounce back out, especially once they start swinging?

Haven't had any problem with the chains as of yet. However I would be more worried of breaking a robot trying block our shots...

[Lil' Lavery]

So, what full court shooters can we watch during week 1?

[JohnFogarty]

The same logic as those teams that are shooting from the pyramid are using is going to have to be applied to those shooting full court. The shots will have to be tuned down do that they float into the goal. Plain and simple.

[JohnFogarty]

Out machine is full-court the only difference is we haven't finished making our loader so that we don't have to turn back to the feeder each time we want to get more frisbees. So we won't be as efficient at it as teams like 180 would be.

[Koko Ed]

So, what full court shooters can we watch during week 1?

3015 and 1559 were experimenting with it at the Rochester Rally so I expect them to employ this strategy @ FLR as well. I would not be surprised if 1507 did it as well as they fire the disc at 85 mph out of their shoot so they should easily make it to the other side.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

If I may be so bold to predict (and pardon any repetition from a previous post for completion's sake) the following:

for a district/regional/championship winning alliance, it will be critical to have all of the following in your alliance:

1 cross-court shooter (that empties the feeder station)
1 robot able to pick up rebounds (clears the floor)
1 utility robot to play defense on the other alliance AND/OR protect their 2 scoring robots

At least 1 of these 3 robots must be a 30pt climber/5pt disc dumper.

There are many strategies to play this year's game, but I just cant see any other system that would be more efficient, systematic, organized, and/or potent.

[Anupam Goli]

If I may be so bold to predict (and pardon any repetition from a previous post for completion's sake) the following:

for a district/regional/championship winning alliance, it will be critical to have all of the following in your alliance:

1 cross-court shooter (that empties the feeder station)
1 robot able to pick up rebounds (clears the floor)
1 utility robot to play defense on the other alliance AND/OR protect their 2 scoring robots

At least 1 of these 3 robots must be a 30pt climber/5pt disc dumper.

There are many strategies to play this year's game, but I just cant see any other system that would be more efficient, systematic, organized, and/or potent.


How many cross court shooters do you think are tuned and can accurately make that shot? I personally wouldn't trust many of the attempted ones. Maybe I'm biased because my team has no cross-court capability, but I'd rather pick a feeder-slot loaded robot that is able to consistently do 4 sprints from being fed to scoring. If it was 118 doing the cross court shooting, my opinions would change, but unless I see some really good accuracy and the ability to avoid defence while doing the cross court shot, I will prefer a feeder loaded robot that can sprint and score.

I don't agree. There are feeder stations on both sides of the field. If there are 2 full court shooters on an alliance put them on each side of the field and have the other alliance chose who to try and stop.

If you put two robots on playing defence, it won't take long for the alliance with the two cross court shooters to realize their strategy isn't working. In that case, those cross court shooters better be prepared to turn down their shooters and become sprinters from the feeder stations to the pyramid for their regular 3 point shots. I don't think we can definitively tell if an alliance with a cross court shooter will be superior to any other alliance at this point just from week 0 footage and reveal videos. Competition changes as strategies become unearthed and developed.

[EricLeifermann]

If you put two robots on playing defence, it won't take long for the alliance with the two cross court shooters to realize their strategy isn't working. In that case, those cross court shooters better be prepared to turn down their shooters and become sprinters from the feeder stations to the pyramid for their regular 3 point shots. I don't think we can definitively tell if an alliance with a cross court shooter will be superior to any other alliance at this point just from week 0 footage and reveal videos. Competition changes as strategies become unearthed and developed.

I agree 100%, I would never want a robot that can only score from 1 location of the field, you are too easily defended. Any full-court shooter needs to be able to shoot from other locations.

To see my opinions on full court shooters and the strategy they need to
employ see some of my other posts in this and other threads.

[Libraryfanatic]

As Eric pointed out, a full-court shooter needs to be able to score from multiple locations. However, given a long enough flight distance, doesn't a frisbee describe a sort of parabola? If so, and assuming the full court shots score on the fall side of the parabola, a full-court shooter can by definition score from around half court. I guess I never really thought about it, but I sort of assumed full-court shooting had to be an extra ability for shooter bots.

[Paul Copioli]

So, what full court shooters can we watch during week 1?

217

[scaryone]

58

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

I would never want a robot that can only score from 1 location of the field, you are too easily defended. Any full-court shooter needs to be able to shoot from other locations.

I completely disagree. If you have 1 robot completely dedicated to emptying out the human feeder station, and a second robot cleaning off the floor on the other side, there is no need for the feeder station robot to even move. It is protected by the feeder loading zone, so opponents cant touch it. And the floor feeder on the other side would be picking up the rebounds for it.

Even if a cross-court shooter hits 40% (which is OK at best), that's 18 discs, as opposed to the 16 from 4 trips. PLUS, all the other discs are now on the other side of the field, conveniently located for the floor feeder to score. No cross-court sprint necessary.

A cross-court shooter ONLY needs to run its autonomous mode, and then B-line to the feeder station to transfer all discs to the scoring goals/floor feeder.

[dodar]

I completely disagree. If you have 1 robot completely dedicated to emptying out the human feeder station, and a second robot cleaning off the floor on the other side, there is no need for the feeder station robot to even move. It is protected by the feeder loading zone, so opponents cant touch it. And the floor feeder on the other side would be picking up the rebounds for it.

Even if a cross-court shooter hits 40% (which is OK at best), that's 18 discs, as opposed to the 16 from 4 trips. PLUS, all the other discs are now on the other side of the field, conveniently located for the floor feeder to score. No cross-court sprint necessary.

A cross-court shooter ONLY needs to run its autonomous mode, and then B-line to the feeder station to transfer all discs to the scoring goals/floor feeder.

1. It would not be hard to defend that corner loader and stop them from scoring/passing discs.

2. This would, then, make that corner only/full-court only shooter pretty much a defender because he cannot do anything else

3. Where are you getting 40% is 18 discs?

[JohnFogarty]

Your strategy only works if the full-court shooter is shooting from 60"
In my opinion, no short (<30") robot can strategically considered a full court shooter because they can be blocked so easily.

[dodar]

Your strategy only works if the full-court shooter is shooting from 60"
In my opinion, no short (<30") robot can strategically considered a full court shooter because they can be blocked so easily.

No, they can be but they just have to be opportunistic. If they get there and load up and are unblocked, then take the shots from there and reload; but if you get a face full of robot, then bolt out(which most likely would catch the defender off guard and they would probably not be able to react fast enough to avoid the penalty) and bolt for your pyramid. Then you could either look for more ground discs or go back to the corner and repeat the process. Unless that <30" full-court shooter cannot floor load, then they just have to be opportunistic and a defacto-defense robot.

[Sean Raia]

3015 and 1559 were experimenting with it at the Rochester Rally so I expect them to employ this strategy @ FLR as well. I would not be surprised if 1507 did it as well as they fire the disc at 85 mph out of their shoot so they should easily make it to the other side.

Do you know if there are any videos of the Rally (aside from the Harlem Shake)?

[JohnFogarty]

That's a forced penalty, that would result in the full court shooter being penalized.

But still in sense of the the term "Full Court Shooter" that everyone is this thread is implying is a shooter that won't be blocked by a 60" robot and can stay in the corner indefinitely if needed until they want to climb.

Our robot shoots from 60"..unless we are facing an 84" tall robot..no one will be blocking our shots...(I speculate this)
We have the ability to shoot from the autoline, the half courtlline and pyramid as well as floor load (maybe). So in my opinion a 60" tall full court shooter is 100x more effective.

[dodar]

That's a forced penalty, that would result in the full court shooter being penalized.

But still in sense of the the term "Full Court Shooter" that everyone is this thread is implying is a shooter that won't be blocked by a 60" robot and can stay in the corner indefinitely if needed until they want to climb.

Our robot shoots from 60"..unless we are facing an 84" tall robot..no one will be blocking our shots...(I speculate this)
We have the ability to shoot from the autoline, the half courtlline and pyramid as well as floor load (maybe). So in my opinion a 60" tall full court shooter is 100x more effective.

Its not a forced penalty. The full court shooter is playing the game and the defender is impeding the flow and would get the penalty.

[EricLeifermann]

That's a forced penalty, that would result in the full court shooter being penalized.


No it wouldn't. Its just like last year. If you are close enough to get touched by a robot in a loading zone or touching their pyramid and you get touched, while they are still touching said locations, you will get a penalty not the robot in the safe areas .

[BJC]

Here are some numbers to toss around:

--assuming the full court shooter is approximately 52 ft away from the high goal.--

-A robot shooting from 30" off the ground can be blocked by a 60" tall robot standing ~7ft or closer.
-A robot shooting from 30" off the ground can be blocked by a 84" tall robot standing ~13ft or closer.
-A robot shooting from 60" off the ground CANNOT be blocked by another robot that is 60" tall.
-A robot shooting from 60" off the ground can be blocked by a robot 84" tall standing ~5ft or closer.

*This is assuming none of the shooting robots have exceptionally high arcing shot trajectories.

Basically, 30" high full court shooters will have to be opportunistic while 60" high shooters will be able to shoot all 45 disks regardless of defense so long as a partners agrees to sit in front of them.

Regards, Bryan

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

1. It would not be hard to defend that corner loader and stop them from scoring/passing discs.

2. This would, then, make that corner only/full-court only shooter pretty much a defender because he cannot do anything else

3. Where are you getting 40% is 18 discs?


3) 40% x 45 white disc = 18

2) Absolutely true; if there are no discs on the floor (i.e. discs are not being shot from the feeder station), the floor feeder is absolutely useless.

1) It would be ALOT easier to defend a robot trying to leave the feeder station (and transverse the field) than it would be against a cross-court shooter who has no plans of leaving. As BJC has put it, a 60" feeder-bot would be blocked by an 84" defender 4' away. That is far enough away to avoid the auto-zone penalty but close enough to still block shots (very hard shots mind you).

In that case, one possible solution is to use your 3rd teammate as a buffer for your cross-court shooter; to keep the opposing defender out of the parabolic path of the discs.

Is the system perfect? No; none is. But it's WAY more efficient than any other.

[dodar]

3) 40% x 45 white disc = 18

2) Absolutely true; if there are no discs on the floor (i.e. discs are not being shot from the feeder station), the floor feeder is absolutely useless.

1) It would be ALOT easier to defend a robot trying to leave the feeder station (and transverse the field) than it would be against a cross-court shooter who has no plans of leaving. As BJC has put it, a 60" feeder-bot would be blocked by an 84" defender 4' away. That is far enough away to avoid the auto-zone penalty but close enough to still block shots (very hard shots mind you).

In that case, one possible solution is to use your 3rd teammate as a buffer for your cross-court shooter; to keep the opposing defender out of the parabolic path of the discs.

Is the system perfect? No; none is. But it's WAY more efficient than any other.

You do realize that each alliance has way more than 45 white discs.

[EricLeifermann]

You do realize that each alliance has way more than 45 white discs.

??? No they don't. Each alliance starts with 45 white discs and 6 red or blue discs divided among the HP's how the alliance sees fit.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

You do realize that each alliance has way more than 45 white discs.

Ummm... 3.1.1.C&D
6 Red & 45 White DISCS are located in the Red ALLIANCE STATION.
6 Blue & 45 White DISCS are located in the Blue ALLIANCE STATION.

Unless I'm reading this wrong...

[dodar]

??? No they don't. Each alliance starts with 45 white discs and 6 red or blue discs divided among the HP's how the alliance sees fit.

Oh, I thought the rules said each alliance got 118 discs. My bad.

[EricLeifermann]

Oh, I thought the rules said each alliance got 118 discs. My bad.

118 is the total number of discs.

If each alliance had 118 discs the rules would allow us to carry more than 4 at a time.

[waialua359]

1) It would be ALOT easier to defend a robot trying to leave the feeder station (and transverse the field) than it would be against a cross-court shooter who has no plans of leaving. As BJC has put it, a 60" feeder-bot would be blocked by an 84" defender 4' away. That is far enough away to avoid the auto-zone penalty but close enough to still block shots (very hard shots mind you).


It sounds contradictory in terms of what is easier to defend.
If you can successfully park your robot and block feeder station shots, how is that not easier to defend?

[Anupam Goli]

*snip*

1) It would be ALOT easier to defend a robot trying to leave the feeder station (and transverse the field) than it would be against a cross-court shooter who has no plans of leaving. As BJC has put it, a 60" feeder-bot would be blocked by an 84" defender 4' away. That is far enough away to avoid the auto-zone penalty but close enough to still block shots (very hard shots mind you).

In that case, one possible solution is to use your 3rd teammate as a buffer for your cross-court shooter; to keep the opposing defender out of the parabolic path of the discs.

Is the system perfect? No; none is. But it's WAY more efficient than any other.

You're right in the qualification matches, but in my experience, no one plays defense in qualifications. You'd be lucky to run into a team that is humble enough to play defense instead of offense. However, I think it becomes very evident to those higher ranked teams in eliminations that if there is a cross court shooter, then immediately following autonomous, it becomes priority to stop that shooter. You'll likely see alliance picks and defensive strategies geared to stop that shooter. I think it will be likely that your cross court shooter bot might have some heavy pressure placed on it in the match, which will make you miss some shots, even if you are 60" tall. Don't forget that humans are intimidated by pressure.

[EricLeifermann]

You're right in the qualification matches, but in my experience, no one plays defense in qualifications. You'd be lucky to run into a team that is humble enough to play defense instead of offense. However, I think it becomes very evident to those higher ranked teams in eliminations that if there is a cross court shooter, then immediately following autonomous, it becomes priority to stop that shooter. You'll likely see alliance picks and defensive strategies geared to stop that shooter. I think it will be likely that your cross court shooter bot might have some heavy pressure placed on it in the match, which will make you miss some shots, even if you are 60" tall. Don't forget that humans are intimidated by pressure.

Also defensive robots have the quicker trip to your protected feeder station than you do. If they can get in your way and slow you down or stop you from getting into position you have become useless.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

If you can successfully park your robot and block feeder station shots, how is that not easier to defend?

I can see how my statement may have been clear. Let me word it differently.
Any robot with wheels and a passable driver can play defense on a robot trying to transverse the field. ONLY a robot 84"(or so) tall within a certain distance can play effective defense on a park-and-shoot.

AND... if push comes to shove, all the park-and-shoot needs to do to overcome the defender 4 feet away is to pull away from the wall (like they are going to leave the feeder station), turn to their right, and fade back to the opposing teams driver station to distance themselves from the defender and make their shots. Then load up and repeat.

This routine should take mere seconds and should still allow you to to empty 36-40 of the feeder station discs. Meaning the 84" bot would have to jockey for blocking position.

Of course you could always go the easy route and just have your robot #3 play D for your cross-court shooter.

[lemiant]

Here are some numbers to toss around:

-A robot shooting from 60" off the ground can be blocked by a robot 84" tall standing ~5ft or closer.

*This is assuming none of the shooting robots have exceptionally high arcing shot trajectories.n

How are you calculating this number?
A relatively flat shot will rise 54" (114"-60") over ~50 feet. Which gives a slope of ~1 inch of rise per foot of travel. That would require 24 feet of space(almost half of the field!) before a frisbee would clear a 84" tall robot.

[Paul Copioli]

How are you calculating this number?
A relatively flat shot will rise 54" (114"-60") over ~50 feet. Which gives a slope of ~1 inch of rise per foot of travel. That would require 24 feet of space(almost half of the field!) before a frisbee would clear a 84" tall robot.

That's not how Frisbees Fly. You can get them to altitude quickly and they naturally level off and travel relatively flat for quite a distance.

Also, many of you are not taking into consideration Frisbee curve and the defensive robot's own tower. A tall defensive robot can get blocked by its own tower if a cross court shooter has dialed in their trajectory.

[45Auto]

AND... if push comes to shove, all the park-and-shoot needs to do to overcome the defender 4 feet away is to pull away from the wall (like they are going to leave the feeder station), turn to their right, and fade back to the opposing teams driver station to distance themselves from the defender and make their shots. Then load up and repeat.

This routine should take mere seconds and should still allow you to to empty 36-40 of the feeder station discs. Meaning the 84" bot would have to jockey for blocking position.

That will be one heck of an impressive targeting system and will require an amazingly consistent shooting mechanism since the offensive robot would have to do it on the move while the defensive robot is bouncing off them every couple of seconds, once the offensive robot pulls away from the protected feeder station.

[Joe Ross]

I'm waiting for a full court shooter that does this: http://i.imgur.com/Ez23N.png

[BJC]

How are you calculating this number?
A relatively flat shot will rise 54" (114"-60") over ~50 feet. Which gives a slope of ~1 inch of rise per foot of travel. That would require 24 feet of space(almost half of the field!) before a frisbee would clear a 84" tall robot.

I modeled the situation in Cad then pulled dimensions from that. I approximated the shot trajectory of the disks being shot based on the many full court shooters from various teams on youtube/chiefdelphi.

That's not how Frisbees Fly. You can get them to altitude quickly and they naturally level off and travel relatively flat for quite a distance.

Also, many of you are not taking into consideration Frisbee curve and the defensive robot's own tower. A tall defensive robot can get blocked by its own tower if a cross court shooter has dialed in their trajectory.

This is true, with serious spin disks could be curved so that they go over the opponent pyramid. However, between the pyramid and the safe zone there is still quite a lot of room for a defender to stop the disks before they get even that far.

I think the core of the problem is as you describe Paul. Disks naturally level off and “float” in the downward half of their trajectory. This makes it difficult to shoot them with a high arc. What I think would be interesting would be shooting full field upside down disks. Upside down disks don’t have the floating tendency which means one can probably shoot them with a much higher (unblockable) trajectory and still make them into the goal.

Interesting thread.
Regards, Bryan

[Lil' Lavery]

2) Absolutely true; if there are no discs on the floor (i.e. discs are not being shot from the feeder station), the floor feeder is absolutely useless.
Well, 10 discs start on the floor. And if the floor loading robot can score some of those discs in autonomous, it's already worth having.

You're right in the qualification matches, but in my experience, no one plays defense in qualifications. You'd be lucky to run into a team that is humble enough to play defense instead of offense. However, I think it becomes very evident to those higher ranked teams in eliminations that if there is a cross court shooter, then immediately following autonomous, it becomes priority to stop that shooter. You'll likely see alliance picks and defensive strategies geared to stop that shooter. I think it will be likely that your cross court shooter bot might have some heavy pressure placed on it in the match, which will make you miss some shots, even if you are 60" tall. Don't forget that humans are intimidated by pressure.
What? When did Georgia become so soft? I remember going to the Peachtree in 2006, and having tons of defense be played not only in qualifications, but even practice matches (which I was none too happy about). And just about every event in the Mid-Atlantic and New England is loaded with defense, even durign qualifications.

[billbo911]

I'm waiting for a full court shooter that does this: http://i.imgur.com/Ez23N.png

Maybe outdoors with a strong onshore flow! Although, the Santa Anna's might do it as well.

[Anupam Goli]

Well, 10 discs start on the floor. And if the floor loading robot can score some of those discs in autonomous, it's already worth having.


What? When did Georgia become so soft? I remember going to the Peachtree in 2006, and having tons of defense be played not only in qualifications, but even practice matches (which I was none too happy about). And just about every event in the Mid-Atlantic and New England is loaded with defense, even durign qualifications.

When 2415 is the highest scoring robot and not a single robot crossed over to play defence on them during most of the qualifications and eliminations in the last 2 years, I call that a lack of defence (Not taking anything away from 2415's accomplishments at all, and I think even with defence they would've won every match that they did).

[sdcantrell56]

When 2415 is the highest scoring robot and not a single robot crossed over to play defence on them during most of the qualifications and eliminations in the last 2 years, I call that a lack of defence (Not taking anything away from 2415's accomplishments at all, and I think even with defence they would've won every match that they did).

What you are starting to understand, and the majority of FIRST doesn't (not including most on CD) is that the majority of FIRST teams are not capable or at least not interested in executing strategy, building within their means, or in general being competitive. EWCP had a great analysis of average scores over the years and it was truly eye-opening.

Because of this, many teams will be able to take advantage and depending on the current gameplay be able to score full-field shots until someone finally realizes what is going on.

[PayneTrain]

the majority of FIRST teams are not interested in executing strategy, building within their means, or in general being competitive

I feel like the "Chief Delphi Bubble" is larger and thicker than ever for some reason. There will not be a lot of strong defense because the teams capable of strategizing for a strong defense are likely mechanically capable of making more impact on offense, and teams more mechanically inclined to see success on defense do not have the ability, knowledge, or willpower to develop a strategy around it.

People also think "everyone should be climbing 10 points." If 70% of teams have one successful 10 point climb, that would surprise me.

People think full court shooters will see issues all the time, but in reality, they don't need to display that capability all weekend to get a high seed pick, and most alliances won't plan for a strategy to counter it in elims.

[JB987]

I feel like the "Chief Delphi Bubble" is larger and thicker than ever for some reason. There will not be a lot of strong defense because the teams capable of strategizing for a strong defense are likely mechanically capable of making more impact on offense, and teams more mechanically inclined to see success on defense do not have the ability, knowledge, or willpower to develop a strategy around it.

People also think "everyone should be climbing 10 points." If 70% of teams have one successful 10 point climb, that would surprise me.

People think full court shooters will see issues all the time, but in reality, they don't need to display that capability all weekend to get a high seed pick, and most alliances won't plan for a strategy to counter it in elims.

Any alliance that is playing to win will plan on possibly facing a full court shooter and find a second pick that has a couple of pounds to spare and provide them with a simple pvc picket fence that tops out at 83.75";)

[pfreivald]

I was shocked and appalled at the lack of defense at regionals last year, especially on non-key shooters.

This year, your best bet for defending well-built full-court shooters is to prevent them from getting to their loading zone in the first place (using your own pyramid to help, of course) -- which is easier said than done, especially if they've realized this already and have the drive train to plow you out of the way.

That said, I hope the penalties are called better than they were at Buckeye last year... There were quite a few situations where the defending bot was in the key, preventing the offensive robot from touching it, and fouls were called on the defending bot. :/

[s_forbes]

I'm waiting for a full court shooter that does this: http://i.imgur.com/Ez23N.png

You're insane! That will never work. :rolleyes: I have yet to see any shooters utilizing leaf blowers to assist in frisbee lift, but that would make my day. Also, defending robots using leaf blowers will be an instant favorite of mine.

With a gamepiece so dependent on air, you'd think there would be more teams trying to control this medium!