What we learned from week 1

[Jay O'Donnell]

We certainly learned a lot up here in NH, but what did others learn across the country? Here's what I learned...
1) A robot with an intake for frisbees on the ground is going to do well as there are frisbees all over the field to pick up.
2) Most teams can either shoot well and hang for 10 points or just play defense and hang for 30.
3) A triple hang for 30 points each would be the coolest thing in FIRST history.
4) There is a major lack of variety in shooters this year, but a wide variety of hangers
So what did you learn?

[DonRotolo]

Watching on the web, I noticed that the majority of frisbees on the ground were right-side up.

[EricDrost]

A robot that climbs and dumps for 50 points can be outscored a lot more easily than I anticipated.

Having more than two robots shooting in the same autonomous goal is a bad idea.

[dellagd]

This year really leveled the playing field for teams

[EricDrost]

This year really leveled the playing field for teams

Agreed. It's really easy to put up big points as a new team.

[Steven Donow]

This year really leveled the playing field for teams

There are multiple things a team can do to score a large amount of points-and things that require more than just a drivetrain(ie. balancing last year).


Automated live scoring isn't the blessing it was last year.

[Gregor]

Never to do week 1 again.

[Anupam Goli]

1.) Scheduling gods exist when there are 65 teams at a regional.
2) Being a consistent shooter is something that's not being seen much, but a lot of teams can do it if they use their resources wisely.
3) Defense is not being played, but when it is, there is a severe impact on an alliance's offense when.
4) A 50 point dumper is not enough to offset an alliance with 2 good scorers that have 10 point hangs.

Some of the more controversial stuff:

4) Referees are NOT calling the 10 point hang properly. I have videos of this, but in our Quarterfinals match 1-2 Team 1772 was not hung up properly, but they got the points, which ended up being the deciding factor and sending our quarterfinals to a 3rd match.

5) G30 exists, referees. Referees are not calling G30, and it's been affecting outcomes of matches! Our Quarterfinals match 1-3, 1772 infracted G30 5 different times, yet it was not called once. We tied that match 70-70, but because the referees instead called us for our human player putting a foot outside of the white line, we ended up losing 70-71, despite numerous infractions of G30 by 1772.

I understand the referees can't see everything, but 5 blatant infractions of G30 shouldn't go unnoticed, and everytime a climb is suspicious, DO THE PAPER TEST!

The toughest thing I had to do this afternoon was to help keep the students calm and explain to them the situation and about us getting unlucky. Toughest thing I have had to say.

I'll post another thread about this issue with some videos to make sure that any referees on CD can be prepared.

[Andrew Zeller]

Simple, feeder-station only fixed angle shooters with passive hangers like 862 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoqj1lWUJIQ) can be very effective.

[Saberbot]

1.) Scheduling gods exist when there are 65 teams at a regional.
2) Being a consistent shooter is something that's not being seen much, but a lot of teams can do it if they use their resources wisely.
3) Defense is not being played, but when it is, there is a severe impact on an alliance's offense when.
4) A 50 point dumper is not enough to offset an alliance with 2 good scorers that have 10 point hangs.

Some of the more controversial stuff:

4) Referees are NOT calling the 10 point hang properly. I have videos of this, but in our Quarterfinals match 1-2 Team 1772 was not hung up properly, but they got the points, which ended up being the deciding factor and sending our quarterfinals to a 3rd match.

5) G30 exists, referees. Referees are not calling G30, and it's been affecting outcomes of matches! Our Quarterfinals match 1-3, 1772 infracted G30 5 different times, yet it was not called once. We tied that match 70-70, but because the referees instead called us for our human player putting a foot outside of the white line, we ended up losing 70-71, despite numerous infractions of G30 by 1772.

I understand the referees can't see everything, but 5 blatant infractions of G30 shouldn't go unnoticed, and everytime a climb is suspicious, DO THE PAPER TEST!

The toughest thing I had to do this afternoon was to help keep the students calm and explain to them the situation and about us getting unlucky. Toughest thing I have had to say.

I'll post another thread about this issue with some videos to make sure that any referees on CD can be prepared.

Did you ever send anybody to the question box?

[Anupam Goli]

Did you ever send anybody to the question box?

We did. but before we could debate the climb and the foul points, the fms was finalized in both matches. Perhaps another lesson we learned was to speed walk to the question box as soon as the match is over.

[ttldomination]

Did anyone else notice that the text on the event display is clear? Like, the team number, scores, and the timers are clear so that your see the feed through them?

IMO, it makes the numbers harder to read. Completely unnecessary change.

- Sunny G.

[F22Rapture]

We drove down to Palmetto to watch, and it seemed to me as though fouls were not being called nearly as often as they should have been. While I can't remember numbers, I recall one incident where a red robot repeatedly (at least 3 times) rammed into a blue robot touching it's pyramid. One minute later... 0 foul points.

The situation did seem to improve in the finals.

@Text change

I could swear I saw the regular, black numbering on the streams from other regionals. The only one I noticed that *did* have the clear numbering was Palmetto. I could be wrong however.

[jblay]

Having more than two robots shooting in the same autonomous goal is a bad idea.

I didn't really see this being a problem for any alliance in the webcasts, do you have an example of it being an issue?

4) Referees are NOT calling the 10 point hang properly. I have videos of this, but in our Quarterfinals match 1-2 Team 1772 was not hung up properly, but they got the points, which ended up being the deciding factor and sending our quarterfinals to a 3rd match.

What exactly happened? Seems like a bot is either off the ground or it's not.

[Jaxom]

Pool noodles, pvc, and duck tape are among the materials that can be easily obtained and used to block full-court shooters.

Rookies with Zoology teachers as mentors can add a 10-point hanger during lunch on Saturday. Way to go, 4552!

Multiple robots can shoot autonomous into the same goal.

The carpet seams around the pyramid get torn up pretty easily.

Headgear from 1986, 3931, and 1801 can be simultaneously worn on the same head.

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

Simple, feeder-station only fixed angle shooters with passive hangers like 842 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoqj1lWUJIQ) can be very effective.

I think you mean 862 ;) At least I don't remember winning Kettering.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Did anyone else notice that the text on the event display is clear? Like, the team number, scores, and the timers are clear so that your see the feed through them?

IMO, it makes the numbers harder to read. Completely unnecessary change.

- Sunny G.Seen this before. Someone screwed up the chroma key setting so the chroma key on the scoring overlay was black instead of green. So then when you're chroma keying the overlay, it keys out everything black on the screen...
I think you mean 862 ;) At least I don't remember winning Kettering.Or having a simple fixed angle shooter and passive hanger for that matter.

[robochick862]

I think you mean 862 ;) At least I don't remember winning Kettering.

I was just about to edit that :)
It was such a great way to start off this season, this is the first district win in 862 history. We we're ecstatic. :D Can't wait for West Michigan!

[darkember]

1. Scoring in auton is big.
2. Not as many consistent shooters as i thought there would be.
3. Strong shooter>climber
4. There are a lot of Frisbee on the ground.
5. Penalties have been a serious factor in qualification. Specifically about contact with a robot in protected zone or while touching pyramid.
6. Hardly any effective long range shooters(at start of season a lot of people speculated on full court shooting).
7. Smart defense is the way to slow down best scorers. It was done effectively by a few teams from the webcasts that i watched.

[KFrisk]

There are very few full court shooters (at least fewer than I was expecting)
Team Titanium is a lot better than I expected.
I didn't think they would do that well. Then they won Hub City.

[Steven Donow]

The carpet seams around the pyramid get torn up pretty easily.


Care to elaborate on this one? Did it have an effect on gameplay/driving around the pyramid?

[MagiChau]

1. A consistent autonomous is a 100% must. With the high scores being put up, every single point matters to give you the lead.

2. Full Court Shooters must not be allowed to score. 610 demonstrated their ferocious ability at Granite State.

3. Long 30 point climbers are not viable. When a robot begins climbing they put themselves out for the rest of a match. Shooting a couple rounds of frisbees and then popping for a 1 second 10 point hang out scores 30 point climbers that take a minute.

4. High maneuverability and defensive tactics is king of eliminations. Defense can wreck highly offensive robots' score output but the highly maneuverable robots like 1986 can breeze past.

These are my 2 cents from watching some webcasts today. We get to put our robot to the test in week 2 to see how we stack up in this year's game.

[Sean Raia]

2. Not as many consistent shooters as i thought there would be.


You and I must have been watching different Ultimate Ascents.

[Andrew Lawrence]

A lead gained in autonomous can stay permanently through the match.

[Sean Raia]

A lead gained in autonomous can stay permanently through the match.

So true. Mid-Game scoring can not be relied upon as much as it could in Rebound Rumble (meaning, I feel that defense is somehow more effective in this game). If you are going to pull ahead in a match it had better be early on in Auton, or at the end with high climbs.

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

The most effective defenses I saw were mostly the cause of the offending robot. Too many times did I see teams try to push their way through a defender and waste lots of time doing that. I'm also seeing that the unprotected loading station seems to be the safest to reload frisbees.

[Billfred]

Fortune favors the prepared.

[mandrews281]

1.) Scheduling gods exist when there are 65 teams at a regional.
2) Being a consistent shooter is something that's not being seen much, but a lot of teams can do it if they use their resources wisely.
3) Defense is not being played, but when it is, there is a severe impact on an alliance's offense when.
4) A 50 point dumper is not enough to offset an alliance with 2 good scorers that have 10 point hangs.

Some of the more controversial stuff:


Agreed.

4) Referees are NOT calling the 10 point hang properly. I have videos of this, but in our Quarterfinals match 1-2 Team 1772 was not hung up properly, but they got the points, which ended up being the deciding factor and sending our quarterfinals to a 3rd match.


I wondered about that too. I was right behind the judges and it sure looked like the front right wheel was down and he was checking the front left, but I wasn't the one crawling around on the floor, the ref was. One other interesting thing I noticed with 1772 was in the semis they were red, and their robot was an inch or more off the ground, but on the blue pyramid it was barely off the ground (like a paper width). So the robot could have been off the ground. Teams: allow for field variations -- they do exist.

5) G30 exists, referees. Referees are not calling G30, and it's been affecting outcomes of matches! Our Quarterfinals match 1-3, 1772 infracted G30 5 different times, yet it was not called once. We tied that match 70-70, but because the referees instead called us for our human player putting a foot outside of the white line, we ended up losing 70-71, despite numerous infractions of G30 by 1772.

I understand the referees can't see everything, but 5 blatant infractions of G30 shouldn't go unnoticed, and everytime a climb is suspicious, DO THE PAPER TEST!

The toughest thing I had to do this afternoon was to help keep the students calm and explain to them the situation and about us getting unlucky. Toughest thing I have had to say.

I'll post another thread about this issue with some videos to make sure that any referees on CD can be prepared.

While I agree that G30 wasn't called as much as I thought I saw, there were also a lot of close calls and I'd prefer the refs erred on the side of NOT giving the foul especially for the little ticky-tacky stuff. I also miss the replay on ties. We once lost a quarter final 0-2-3. It really screwed up the schedule; but it was like a final with the immediate match turn-around.

[Andrew Zeller]

I think you mean 862 ;) At least I don't remember winning Kettering.

Yes that is what I meant. I just edited the post.

[PayneTrain]

Did anyone else notice that the text on the event display is clear? Like, the team number, scores, and the timers are clear so that your see the feed through them?


There were a lot of quirks specific to the Palmetto event, and this was one of them.


Referees are NOT calling the 10 point hang properly.

Referees are not calling G30, and it's been affecting outcomes of matches!

I understand the referees can't see everything, but 5 blatant infractions of G30 shouldn't go unnoticed, and every time a climb is suspicious, DO THE PAPER TEST!


From my ivory tower (suspiciously similar to a college dorm room), it was pretty clear that Palmetto definitely had a lot of the rough edges that come with running a Week 1 event without the experience that FLR and BAE have. Even still, it's no picnic. The game is still in its infantile stage.

Let me be clear, holding a Week 1 event is not an enviable task, which is why even though the number of total FRC events has ballooned as of late, the Week 1 number is very hesitant to break 10.

Palmetto is historically a later event, and I assume that the event will slot back into a Week 4 slot when it goes back to Charleston(?). I think that would be good for this event.

[F22Rapture]

Regarding autonomous, is it more effective to just place in the same spot consistently and go to the correct angle, or to use vision targeting, or some combination?

[TheMadCADer]

So true. Mid-Game scoring can not be relied upon as much as it could in Rebound Rumble (meaning, I feel that defense is somehow more effective in this game). If you are going to pull ahead in a match it had better be early on in Auton, or at the end with high climbs.

A 7-disc autonomous is a killer this year, because it can be made much more reliable than a bridge autonomous could last year. 24 extra points right off the bat gets you a huge lead. The other alliance has to score 8 more discs than you just to catch up, and chances are your robot is also good at shooting tele-op discs if it can do a 7-disc auto.

I'd also note how huge of an impact 610's drive team had for them. They were spinning past defenders every trip, and had an awesome technique that used the defender's own pyramid to get free (they'd get them stuck up against the diagonal all the time, it was very fun to watch). First Nick Lawrence, now this driver, plus the always great driving from 1114 and 2056... I guess great drivers come from Ontario. :p

[Andrew Lawrence]

A 7-disc autonomous is a killer this year, because it can be made much more reliable than a bridge autonomous could last year. 24 extra points right off the bat gets you a huge lead. The other alliance has to score 8 more discs than you just to catch up, and chances are your robot is also good at shooting tele-op discs if it can do a 7-disc auto.


A 7 disc auto would give you 42 points, no? Even more emphasizing your point on the importance of gaining a lead in autonomous. Your opponent would need to score 14 frisbees in the top goal to catch up.

[TheMadCADer]

A 7 disc auto would give you 42 points, no? Even more emphasizing your point on the importance of gaining a lead in autonomous. Your opponent would need to score 14 frisbees in the top goal to catch up.

I should have pointed out that I was assuming the other robot that yours "matches-up" against has a pre-loaded 3-disc autonomous, so it would be 42-18 before other robots factor in (giving you that 24 point lead). Your point is absolutely valid if the other robot scores zero.

[Hebrew]

Any videos out of eliminations yet? I checked BA and could find nothing.

[Akash Rastogi]

Observation/learned - many teams still don't have reliable, or any in some instances, 10 point hangers.

[nobrakes8]

Care to elaborate on this one? Did it have an effect on gameplay/driving around the pyramid?

We have a low hanging piston for our shooter (our robot was designed to be low) and it ended up getting caught on part of the carpet that was torn up. It bent our rod 90 degrees without us even realizing until it came time to shoot.

Team 16 had issues catching the carpet with their robot too.. But that might have had something to do when our team collided with them in our last qualification match :yikes: (our frame got bent and they didn't seem to work the same again during eliminations).

But point being if you're a good robot you're going to take a beating this year and things with a close floor tolerance can poise an issue with the carpet. Also it'll be worthwhile to make a quick walk around your pyramid to make sure the carpet is taped down well prior to starting the match.

[itsjustmrb]

Battle Bot style defense is a viable solution for some teams.

[Koko Ed]

Battle Bot style defense is a viable solution for some teams.

Depends on where you do it.
HINT: Don't repeatedly do it when the team is firing away in their loading zone and you start accumulating over a hundred points in technical fouls.
Though the move 48 pulled on 1559 where they ran under the blue pyramid and shoved them all the way across the field before they could hang had to be the boldest defensive move I have ever seen. It could have backfire bigtime.

[EricDrost]

I didn't really see this being a problem for any alliance in the webcasts, do you have an example of it being an issue.

When there are two robots shooting well into the high goal for auto (us and 2363, us and 245, etc.) The chains bounce up, leaving the back of the goal exposed. If you time it well, you'll be fine. If not, your shots will bounce out.

It also helps to have the robots shooting from different positions, not side by side.

[Jay O'Donnell]

Care to elaborate on this one? Did it have an effect on gameplay/driving around the pyramid?

For us it had a huge impact. We have a ramp system from intake rollers in the front to our hopper in the back, and every tape line around the pyramid was a trouble spot for us. Also in eliminations at GSR, team 175 pulled about a foot of carpet up on the corner of a pyramid.

[Wayne TenBrink]

Autonomous is critical. Its also fun to watch the barrage of discs going into the same goal - no need to coordinate timing to avoid mid-air collisions like last year!

Shooting from the pyramid seems a more robust strategy than from the feeder zone. You have options for feeding (floor, feeder stations at either corner) and shooting (left, right, center) and mobility (multiple paths to and from - harder to defend). Defense can slow you down, but can't shut you down. Full court shooting has only one place to go for shooting, takes time to set up, and can be blocked.

10 point hang is good.

I fear that all the time and effort we put into a climber may have been for naught. Even if it works, it takes a lot of time and adds a lot of risk for a modest net gain.

[Zuelu562]

From my vantage point (read bedroom), I noticed quite a lot at BAE

Climbers: 30 pointers are not greatly viable. Instantly turns the match into a 2v3, where you start with a 30 point lead (you hope). 10 point is stronger because you can work with frisbees or play defense, and get 30 additional points if everyone hangs.

Shooters: Long range is strong if you're good. Tower is strong if you do it well.

Defense: From what little I saw on Saturday, the "defense" was ramming into other robots at midfield. Defending long rangers with tall robots is ideal.

Hanging: Seems like a couple got away with ground touches, and I even saw one or two that looked to me like it was touching 3 zones while climbing.

Penalties: with the lack of audio on the BAE stream, I couldn't exactly keep strong track of penalties, but when I saw something, it was accounted for (by and large).

[Nathan Streeter]

Any videos out of eliminations yet? I checked BA and could find nothing.

1519 has uploaded videos of 8 of the 9 quarter-finals at the Granite State Regional. Here's the playlist... http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLLJ8AkRj4AlXS0TSTsI5BrWEbRxhDpuK3&feature=view_all... I believe we have more yet to upload.

I'm sure more videos from this and other regionals will also appear soon...

[sircedric4]

I learned a lot this weekend and all of it just makes me sick to my stomach. Looks like this year will be a very good year for lessons learned for our team bible.

1) The GDC did an awesome job this year building a trap. Let's call the game Ultimate Ascent and introduce this awesome pyramid and impossible top target and then it turns out to be a waste of a season to defeat the obstacle. We and only a few others conquered the very difficult only to watch EVERYONE (hyperbole!) outscore our top end.

We have this awesome climber and dumper and I am seriously thinking about scrapping the whole thing and bolting a quick 3 day robot shooter, human fed device and quick ram the bar 10 pointer to the robot at our one and only regional.

2) Autonomous and frisbee throwing is perhaps the easiest I have ever seen it when it comes to scoring pieces. This is a year that experience actually worked against us. There has never been a scoring game with such consistent pieces, so one lesson learned is always build a game piece scorer immediately before even trying to determine your strategy.


Congratulations all teams of FRC for bringing some good scoring to the game and I guess it will only get better from here for you frisbee throwers.

I could go on but I am just gonna try and reconcile what I saw this weekend with how we saw the games going and determine what we are gonna do. Honestly we are so tired after such an exhausting build season, that I suspect we will just "run what we brung" and we will be the cool looking climber that does contribute consistently. I know that will earn us a spot on an alliance, but it really is disappointing to take the road less traveled and find everyone else at the destination when you get there.

The journey this year will hopefully be worth it since we will definitely have a lot of lessons learned. This year the students and I get to deal with conquering the impossible and that awesome feeling, and then we get to learn how to deal with disappointment when everyone and their mother outscores with "easier" robots.


(PS. I am not trivializing the "easier" robots before you get all in a hissy, I know all those were built in the same 6 week vacuum we were. But shooters have been done for years and there was a 3 day robot, so frisbee throwers were easier to get a base scorer.) :-)

[Mike Norton]

What we learned. To play well you need to to have a great scouting crew. If you go into a match with a good plan you can beat some great robots.

1) shooters vs climbers. You need both. If your climber can stop the other team great shooter then come back and score 30 to 50 pts that will win 90% of the matches. You need great auto shooters. You can not give up the bonuse points to the other team and expect to win.

2) a great driver can insure great results. If you have a great robot and can't drive, then what good is it.

3)Why we did so well in the finals was because of great scouting. Our students knew what teams would work well with our robot. They picked teams that where not on the top seeding. But had watch team 175 and 172 get better and better as the seeding matches went along. 172 at the end was hitting all 3 disc in auto mode then kept shooting and holding their own against the best. 175 was the same way they starting to hit all of their disc in the auto mode. That 36 points to start the match off was great. I would watch out for team 175 at the CT. Regional by then they will have a fine turn robot that will be at the top of the seeding rounds.

4) do not waste or damage your robot when you know your score is high enough to win the match. I saw a lot of plans to play defense against robots that could not score much points. Know what you can score and know what the other team can put up and play to that. We saved our robot from any damage using this plan.

5) For all you 30 pts climbers make sure you have some tall kids to be able to take your robot off the top. This is a back breaker.

6) it was easy to put your robot in place to have the other team incur penaltys. This was a defense position.

[swwrobotics]

Watching the Palmetto webcast, many teams got stuck at the feeder stations by not taking the time to line up right and unfortunately ended up with a bunch of frisbees blocking their way to the wall.

[Jaxom]

Care to elaborate on this one? Did it have an effect on gameplay/driving around the pyramid?

It only happened to this degree a couple of time in Lubbock, but there were many times that the field reset folks were out there with tape on smaller repairs.

[Dragonking]

What great addition out team added to our robot that has been so useful is a supershifter. We could push anyone who got in out way and we could switch to high gear and outmaneuver any one as well as get anywhere fast.

I agree that scouting is extremely important. For our alliance we got a 5 disc auto scorer with a full court shooter at the 3 pt who also had a 10 pt climb. The to of us were the top 2 seeds. The question was who else to get. We also got a second full court shooter which was too tall to be blocked against. They could also block opponents with their height.
Our alliance didn't lose a single match and outscored most of our opponents

[PayneTrain]

It only happened to this degree a couple of time in Lubbock, but there were many times that the field reset folks were out there with tape on smaller repairs.

That seems like a field fault big enough to warrant a "foghorn" reset. I assume that wasn't the case?

[2789_B_Garcia]

Pool noodles, pvc, and duck tape are among the materials that can be easily obtained and used to block full-court shooters.

Some of us on 2789 are still in awe/laughing about how crazy the idea was, how fast it was put up and taken down, and that it worked, lol

Needless to say, we learned A LOT from Bomb Squad at this regional!

[Jaxom]

We also got a second full court shooter which was too tall to be blocked against.

With all due respect, there is no such thing in this game. If you're going to be a full-court shooter you're maxing at 60"; defenders can be 84". 84" > 60", and there's no way you're going to be shooting steeply enough to get over them *if* they're in the right place. Now, you may not have had anyone that set anything up to be able to block you, but I guarantee it could have been done.

Having said that, congratulations on your win. Looks like you guys put up some great scores.

[Jaxom]

That seems like a field fault big enough to warrant a "foghorn" reset. I assume that wasn't the case?

No. There were two of these that I saw; both were actually put back in place (mostly) by a robot running over them in the right direction.

[EricH]

With all due respect, there is no such thing in this game. If you're going to be a full-court shooter you're maxing at 60"; defenders can be 84". 84" > 60", and there's no way you're going to be shooting steeply enough to get over them *if* they're in the right place.
With all due respect, you're thinking inside the box. There are teams that may be able to get over 84" defenders by using other methods than the typical shooter.

[pfreivald]

Defense is every bit as big as I expected it to be!

[dtengineering]

Simple, feeder-station only fixed angle shooters with passive hangers like 862 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoqj1lWUJIQ) can be very effective.

That is the single best camera angle that I've ever seen for an FRC video. It's better than the live camera operators at worlds... you can see EVERYTHING. It's just like being there, but with the added benefit of being able to rewind and rewatch parts that you missed.

Whoever mounted that camera... well done!

Oh, yeah... the robots did a pretty good job, too... but did I see human players throwing frisbees at the end of the match? I thought that got outlawed. :confused:

<goes off to re-read the rules and updates>

Jason

[Brian Ha]

With all due respect, there is no such thing in this game. If you're going to be a full-court shooter you're maxing at 60"; defenders can be 84". 84" > 60", and there's no way you're going to be shooting steeply enough to get over them *if* they're in the right place. Now, you may not have had anyone that set anything up to be able to block you, but I guarantee it could have been done.

Having said that, congratulations on your win. Looks like you guys put up some great scores.

Unfortunately Jaxom, ill have to agree with Eric H. If you have the time to see, a way to beat the 84 inch tall blocker robots is to do exactly what 326 did, the super blah blah blah eagles. They have a rectangular robot with the shooter being parallel with the longer side. It is also near the back of their robot. This allows them to have the end height of their robot to be much higher than the standard shooter. This also makes it harder to block them because of the way their robot is built that you have to stay farther away from them to not incur penalties for touching them in their zone.

They were at Kettering, and while i don't think it turned out as well as they had wished is had for them, their robot is much more difficult to block them let's say 910 which is Foley Freeze.

I just wanted to input what i had seen at the Kettering District in accordance to what you said.

[dtengineering]

I learned a lot this weekend and all of it just makes me sick to my stomach. Looks like this year will be a very good year for lessons learned for our team bible.

1) The GDC did an awesome job this year building a trap. Let's call the game Ultimate Ascent and introduce this awesome pyramid and impossible top target and then it turns out to be a waste of a season to defeat the obstacle. We and only a few others conquered the very difficult only to watch EVERYONE (hyperbole!) outscore our top end.

We have this awesome climber and dumper and I am seriously thinking ...

(PS. I am not trivializing the "easier" robots before you get all in a hissy, I know all those were built in the same 6 week vacuum we were. But shooters have been done for years and there was a 3 day robot, so frisbee throwers were easier to get a base scorer.) :-)

The GDC is not responsible for your team's analysis of the game.

Jason

[cmrnpizzo14]

Depends on where you do it.
HINT: Don't repeatedly do it when the team is firing away in their loading zone and you start accumulating over a hundred points in technical fouls.
Though the move 48 pulled on 1559 where they ran under the blue pyramid and shoved them all the way across the field before they could hang had to be the boldest defensive move I have ever seen. It could have backfire bigtime.

I disagree!
Please continue to think that that defense is effective, we want the high score back!

[Koko Ed]

I disagree!
Please continue to think that that defense is effective, we want the high score back!
Only if 4023 agrees to keep hitting you in the loading zone again and again.

[Jaxom]

With all due respect, you're thinking inside the box. There are teams that may be able to get over 84" defenders by using other methods than the typical shooter.

That's me....I rarely see outside of the box. Do you have an example of something that keeps high accuracy combined with the appropriate geometry? Edit: I just realized that I didn't specify I've been talking about "park and shoot" full-courters. Forcing them to move & reaim won't STOP them from scoring but it will slow them down enough to make them no more effective than a fast under-the-pyramid shooter. Anyone that builds an automated track/aim/fire bot that can score while moving isn't easily blockable. It's also beyond the capabilities of all but a handful of teams. And it will be very exciting to watch the bot that proves me wrong.

If you have the time to see, a way to beat the 84 inch tall blocker robots is to do exactly what 326 did, the super blah blah blah eagles.

I looked at the quarterfinals, and see what you mean. However...their shooter is still exiting at what, about 50"-55"? I couldn't tell for sure, but that's what it looked like their lineup for autonomous put them at when comparing to the 2nd pyramid bar. And since it's still towards the middle of the bot, I don't see how it's that much further back from more "typical" shooters. So for those of you that have seen 326 in person....how would they have done against this contraption we put on our first-match alliance partner 4102 on Friday, to block 2468? I'm asking, not arguing; like I said, I'm pretty much an in-the-box guy.

As an aside -- it looked like 326 has a big open groove in the middle. Is that intended for climbing? That's too bad they fell over in Q1; rotten way to lose.

[Akash Rastogi]

I learned a lot this weekend and all of it just makes me sick to my stomach. Looks like this year will be a very good year for lessons learned for our team bible.

1) The GDC did an awesome job this year building a trap. Let's call the game Ultimate Ascent and introduce this awesome pyramid and impossible top target and then it turns out to be a waste of a season to defeat the obstacle. We and only a few others conquered the very difficult only to watch EVERYONE (hyperbole!) outscore our top end.

We have this awesome climber and dumper and I am seriously thinking about scrapping the whole thing and bolting a quick 3 day robot shooter, human fed device and quick ram the bar 10 pointer to the robot at our one and only regional.


I think you're underestimating what a 50 point climber (climb + dump) can accomplish with a team who is a top notch shooter.

Yes these climbers and dumpers can be beaten with two solid shooters, but it all depends on the full alliance.

[jmiller48167]

[QUOTE=dtengineering;1242790]That is the single best camera angle that I've ever seen for an FRC video. It's better than the live camera operators at worlds... you can see EVERYTHING. It's just like being there, but with the added benefit of being able to rewind and rewatch parts that you missed.

Whoever mounted that camera... well done

FRC 2337 uses a GoPro camera mounted next to the scorpion box on an umbrella pole. Clint Bolinger start doing this last year during the off season as a test bed. Nice work Clint as usual.

[EricDrost]

I think you're underestimating what a 50 point climber (climb + dump) can accomplish with a team who is a top notch shooter.

Yes these climbers and dumpers can be beaten with two solid shooters, but it all depends on the full alliance.

I'd rather have two good shooters than a climber and a shooter. Climbers often lack autonomous and top out at around 50 points. That's easily outscored by a robot that does autonomous and hangs for 10. It only requires two loads of discs, a number that's easily achievable.

Also, climbers (from what I've seen) tend to be less reliable.

[Alexa Stott]

I learned a lot this weekend and all of it just makes me sick to my stomach. Looks like this year will be a very good year for lessons learned for our team bible.

1) The GDC did an awesome job this year building a trap. Let's call the game Ultimate Ascent and introduce this awesome pyramid and impossible top target and then it turns out to be a waste of a season to defeat the obstacle. We and only a few others conquered the very difficult only to watch EVERYONE (hyperbole!) outscore our top end.

We have this awesome climber and dumper and I am seriously thinking about scrapping the whole thing and bolting a quick 3 day robot shooter, human fed device and quick ram the bar 10 pointer to the robot at our one and only regional.

2) Autonomous and frisbee throwing is perhaps the easiest I have ever seen it when it comes to scoring pieces. This is a year that experience actually worked against us. There has never been a scoring game with such consistent pieces, so one lesson learned is always build a game piece scorer immediately before even trying to determine your strategy.


Congratulations all teams of FRC for bringing some good scoring to the game and I guess it will only get better from here for you frisbee throwers.

I could go on but I am just gonna try and reconcile what I saw this weekend with how we saw the games going and determine what we are gonna do. Honestly we are so tired after such an exhausting build season, that I suspect we will just "run what we brung" and we will be the cool looking climber that does contribute consistently. I know that will earn us a spot on an alliance, but it really is disappointing to take the road less traveled and find everyone else at the destination when you get there.

The journey this year will hopefully be worth it since we will definitely have a lot of lessons learned. This year the students and I get to deal with conquering the impossible and that awesome feeling, and then we get to learn how to deal with disappointment when everyone and their mother outscores with "easier" robots.


(PS. I am not trivializing the "easier" robots before you get all in a hissy, I know all those were built in the same 6 week vacuum we were. But shooters have been done for years and there was a 3 day robot, so frisbee throwers were easier to get a base scorer.) :-)

Sorry, but the smiley face at the end of your post doesn't make it any less offensive to all the teams that worked their butt off (same as you) to build their effective frisbee shooters and 10 point climbers.

[NotaJoke]

WAY too much time was wasted lining up, even for some members of winning alliances. This might change in later weeks, but the teams that carried victory were the once that took no time to line up, and simply drove into the pyramid to line up for shooting, or into the alliance wall for loading.

Few teams can floor load well. 'HOT arms' dominated this weekend. Also, floor loading isn't necessary for victory (but it can speed up cycle times considerably.)

There is no excuse for not 10 point hanging. Not hanging lost many teams many matches this weekend.

Crazy high penalty points can all be avoided by smarter maneuverability. Avoid the enemy pyramid at all cost, either by ducking under it, or hugging the side of the wall. EDIT: And not defending a robot when they clearly can't or shouldn't be defended (loading zone!)

Most Linear shooters are capable of full court scoring. Be prepared to defend it even if you haven't seen it from a robot earlier in the tournament. While short robots are nice for avoiding penalties, there should never be an alliance of three short robots. Edit: If there is, tape something tall to one of them ;)

Most importantly: Never leave a robot off your pick list because they are 'too good'. Sometimes even the best of robots can slip past the scouts of earlier seeds, and even be available as third robots. Edit: I'm talking about you; 910!

EDIT: A top heavy robot is a fallen over robot. I won't feel bad for you when your robot falls over if you designed it to fall over, no offense intended.

Also the impact of 'Robot in 3 Days' is very clear even at week one. A huge thanks to the guys who thought of it/put in the effort to actually do it! You're changing the face of FIRST, and making every match that much more exciting.

[Travis Hoffman]

Defense is every bit as big as I expected it to be!

Especially if there's a "nuclear reactor" in your alliance partner's drivetrain. I did so enjoy 48's alliance with 1126 and 145. :)

[Dr. Shocker]

I think we all learned from team 48 that if you're going to climb, you can't waste any time doing it.

[rick.oliver]

Especially if there's a "nuclear reactor" in your alliance partner's drivetrain. I did so enjoy 48's alliance with 1126 and 145. :)

Having run with both 48 and 1126 when I coached 1038, I really enjoyed watching them compete and I have a link to 145, too. FLR elimination rounds were great fun. You guys showed us the tremendous value of defense in this game. Many thanks.

Look forward to seeing 48 at QCR and Crossroads later this season. All the best to 48, 1126 and 145. Not taking anything away from the Champions; it was a great finals.

[Andrew Zeller]

EDIT: A top heavy robot is a fallen over robot. I won't feel bad for you when your robot falls over if you designed it to fall over, no offense intended.


http://youtu.be/C8Ftc_M-n6I?t=29s That was not a joke.

[Mike Norton]

I'd rather have two good shooters than a climber and a shooter. Climbers often lack autonomous and top out at around 50 points. That's easily outscored by a robot that does autonomous and hangs for 10. It only requires two loads of discs, a number that's easily achievable.

Also, climbers (from what I've seen) tend to be less reliable.
__________________
MORT 11
web yt fb tw
--
Friends don't let friends drive mecanum.


We proved that with two good shooter and a good climber you will do well. We knock off the 2nd rank team and the 3rd rank team to make it to the finals. Those last 30 to 50 points are very valuable. If everyone on your team can score 50 points that would be 150 points.

So every robot has it place. We made a climber but do not tell others because they made a shooter it was easier to do. I thought it was easy to build a climber.


Side note we did well do to our new PTO our students built this year. we only used 4 CIMs motors. Two on each PTO. When we switched over to climb we used all four CIMs. Plenty of power to climb fast. Our fastest time to the top was 25 seconds.

[jwallace15]

1. A lot of teams are using mechanum.
2. Not climbing can hurt you (already said by NotaJoke).
3. It's going to be hard to focus a camera through the netting, and not being able to get close to the field to take pictures will prove to be difficult.
4. Our center of gravity + the speed of our drivetrain = a lot of wheelies.
5. Watch out for flying frisbees.
6. Robots WILL get stuck in the pyramid (it took volunteers almost 5 minutes to get a robot down once).
7. Big sheets of lexan make for great noisemakers in the stands.

[EricDrost]

We proved that with two good shooter and a good climber you will do well. We knock off the 2nd rank team and the 3rd rank team to make it to the finals. Those last 30 to 50 points are very valuable. If everyone on your team can score 50 points that would be 150 points.


I agree those 30 to 50 points are valuable, but a captain and first pick shooter can each beat 50 points and a second pick shooter can beat 30 points.

Our alliance in Palmetto hit 166 points without a single climb above 10 points.


What I'm getting at is, climbing alone puts a very beatable ceiling on your score.

[pfreivald]

Especially if there's a "nuclear reactor" in your alliance partner's drivetrain. I did so enjoy 48's alliance with 1126 and 145. :)

Amen to that. 1126's suddenly improved drivetrain was quite the shocker, and so very, very well played. (Pardon me while I sob uncontrollably for a few minutes).

I do have to say, though, that 48's driver needs an award for the ballsiest defense I've ever seen in an FRC match ever--totally epic driving, that was!

[Akash Rastogi]

What I'm getting at is, climbing alone puts a very beatable ceiling on your score.


Agreed, my post was more to tell them that the right alliance can still utilize a climbing dumper very effectively. It is by no means a locked win like some teams thought it would be.

[EricLeifermann]

It is too early to tell what effect pure climber/dumpers will have on the game. I will say that if you are a pure climber/dumper you will be hoping to be picked as a 2nd rounder if you are not in the top 12 after quals.

Doesn't mean robots like this are bad robots just means that discs are easy to score and robot in 3 days showed everybody how easy it was 2 days into build season.

I will also say that climbing higher than 10 will be important come later weeks when discs are all gone/scored with 40 seconds left in the match. Teams that can score and climb for 30 fast will be the ones who sway the match.

[pfreivald]

It is too early to tell what effect pure climber/dumpers will have on the game. I will say that if you are a pure climber/dumper you will be hoping to be picked as a 2nd rounder if you are not in the top 12 after quals.

Doesn't mean robots like this are bad robots just means that discs are easy to score and robot in 3 days showed everybody how easy it was 2 days into build season.

I will also say that climbing higher than 10 will be important come later weeks when discs are all gone/scored with 40 seconds left in the match. Teams that can score and climb for 30 fast will be the ones who sway the match.

Yeah. I'm comfortable predicting scores that amount to just about every disk plus climbing points come Championships.

[rick.oliver]

Yeah. I'm comfortable predicting scores that amount to just about every disk plus climbing points come Championships.

Only if no one plays any defense. Not expecting that, even at Championships.

[pfreivald]

Only if no one plays any defense. Not expecting that, even at Championships.

I didn't mean for every game... :ahh:

[MooreteP]

From another post that I made:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfzkxt3qdz8
Team 1519 Mechanical Mayhem. A Full court shooter

This strategy, combined with a floor pickup robot as they were in the Eliminations teamed with Team 885, The GREEN Team, may be a harbinger of what the eliminations at The Championship Event will look like.

It eliminates midfield traffic, both scorers are protected, and it leaves one robot to play defense.

While one team is climbing, another is scoring.
Similar to 2004, First Frenzy.

[TheMadCADer]

Only if no one plays any defense. Not expecting that, even at Championships.

This is the kind of game where you can realistically have 3 scorers no matter what method of scoring they use. You have 3 feeder stations, wide open goals, and a huge pyramid to climb on (except the inside can only really fit one robot). Championships is the kind of event where every robot has something they can do well, and nobody wants to play defense during qualifications, they want to show off how much they can score (whether or not that's a good idea is another discussion).

Just look at GSR this week. Everyone knew that 610 was by far the top shooter there, but they were hardly ever slowed down on their across the field. Pretty much the same with 1986 at Hub City. It changes in eliminations, but defense hardly ever happens during qualifications.

[pyroslev]

Just from watching the FRC Spyders push notifications, a #8 Seed Alliance can take down #1 in the Palmetto Regional.

And an odd side note, in the Virginia FTC states, both divisions were won by the #3 Alliance. And the irony is the #3 Seeded Alliance won at Palmetto.

[Gregor]

Just from watching the FRC Spyders push notifications, a #8 Seed Alliance can take down #1 in the Palmetto Regional.

And an odd side note, in the Virginia FTC states, both divisions were won by the #3 Alliance. And the irony is the #3 Seeded Alliance won at Palmetto.

#3 won FLR.

[GBK]

I think that the 30 point climb will become more of a factor. However it is going to have to be a quick climb. (30 seconds or less) Full court shooters are going to be deadly during the quals, once the elims come around, they will be slowed down the short ones are easy to block, the tall ones only take someone that can extend to 84 inches. We found that once you disrupted a couple of their shots, they abandoned their post.

[MooreteP]

Here is a useful tactic:
Human players can stack four frisbees on top of their slots in preparation to load their Robot.

You can see 610 doing it in this video at (0:50) & (1:20)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YMPCUb2gCc

[Kristian Calhoun]

Human players need to be careful not to step outside of the alliance station in their frisbee throwing frenzy.

[Jay O'Donnell]

Just look at GSR this week. Everyone knew that 610 was by far the top shooter there, but they were hardly ever slowed down on their across the field. Pretty much the same with 1986 at Hub City. It changes in eliminations, but defense hardly ever happens during qualifications.

And the one match that 610 lost at GSR was the one where the best defense was played on them (By far). There was a lack of defense in them in parts of qualifications and even in eliminations, and their scores reflected that.

[brrian27]

What about robots with a 30-point climb and effective shooter? Any prime examples of that, or is that a rare occurrence in this year's game?

[Jonathan K.]

Here is a useful tactic:
Human players can stack four frisbees on top of their slots in preparation to load their Robot.

You can see 610 doing it in this video at (0:50) & (1:20)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YMPCUb2gCc

Did anybody else see 610 hit 2342 with a frisbee at 0:36?

That was hilarious

[xWildCardx]

I think we all learned from team 48 that if you're going to climb, you can't waste any time doing it.

We(1559) got comfortable because we had almost zero attempts to block our climbing. Going forward, we'll just raise our climbing hook as soon as we get under the pyramid and then we can't be pushed out again.

[robochick862]

That is the single best camera angle that I've ever seen for an FRC video. It's better than the live camera operators at worlds... you can see EVERYTHING. It's just like being there, but with the added benefit of being able to rewind and rewatch parts that you missed.

Whoever mounted that camera... well done!

Oh, yeah... the robots did a pretty good job, too... but did I see human players throwing frisbees at the end of the match? I thought that got outlawed. :confused:

<goes off to re-read the rules and updates>

Jason
THey changed the rule that only COLORED discs may be thrown at the end. THere were human players making it into goals with their throws. :D None in the top of the pyramid I dont remember. Did anyone see any shots in the pyramid?

[Andrew Schreiber]

I learned a lot this weekend and all of it just makes me sick to my stomach. Looks like this year will be a very good year for lessons learned for our team bible.

1) The GDC did an awesome job this year building a trap. Let's call the game Ultimate Ascent and introduce this awesome pyramid and impossible top target and then it turns out to be a waste of a season to defeat the obstacle. We and only a few others conquered the very difficult only to watch EVERYONE (hyperbole!) outscore our top end.

I hope the lesson is to properly evaluate all the scoring options.

[Jaxom]

THey changed the rule that only COLORED discs may be thrown at the end. THere were human players making it into goals with their throws. :D None in the top of the pyramid I dont remember. Did anyone see any shots in the pyramid?

We had 2 or 3 in Hub City. Human players might have been scoring 1 of 20-25 into either the 2- or 3-point goals in the matches I saw.

[itsjustmrb]

I believe 2848 was the first team at Hub City to shoot a frisbee in the pyramid goal and 4063 did it a match or 2 later. Also, one of the team from Mexico had a human player make one in the pyramid.

[Jonathan Norris]

Here is a useful tactic:
Human players can stack four frisbees on top of their slots in preparation to load their Robot.

You can see 610 doing it in this video at (0:50) & (1:20)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YMPCUb2gCc

Our shooter was also jammed for auton and the first half of that match. That's why we weren't running cycles.

4124 also had a great method of loading 4 discs quickly, they held 4 at once in a stack and quickly pushed the bottom one into the slot. It's hard to explain, I'll try and find some video of it later.

But running cycles is all about efficiency, how quickly you get back and setup to load, how quick your human player is at feeding, and being very quick to get aligned and get your shots off. I think in one match our great drive team was able to run 7 cycles with a 10 point hang.

[robochick862]

Any other teams human players have problems with the colored covers of the feeder slots falling off? Happened a few times at kettering.

[pfreivald]

THey changed the rule that only COLORED discs may be thrown at the end. THere were human players making it into goals with their throws. :D None in the top of the pyramid I dont remember. Did anyone see any shots in the pyramid?

3003 did it from the floor with their robot on many occasions at FLR.

[IKE]

Make sure you get re-inspected after you make modifications...

[PVCpirate]

Something I just learned 5 minutes ago from the Central Valley webcast: Teams who make a major change to their robot(like adding a tall screen for blocking shots during eliminations) must be reinspected before their next match. The whole alliance of 973, 1323 and 4135 were just DQ'd from semifinal 2-1, which they had won. Let this be a lesson to all alliance captains suggesting an alliance member should make a similar change.

EDIT: Ike beat me to it

[jspatz1]

Something I just learned 5 minutes ago from the Central Valley webcast: Teams who make a major change to their robot(like adding a tall screen for blocking shots during eliminations) must be reinspected before their next match. The whole alliance of 973, 1323 and 4135 were just DQ'd from semifinal 2-1, which they had won. Let this be a lesson to all alliance captains suggesting an alliance member should make a similar change.

EDIT: Ike beat me to it

This rule has always been in effect for any change, major or minor, at any time in the event. Nothing new.

[PVCpirate]

I figured that, but I thought it was significant because of all the talk about adding blocking screens to robots in eliminations.

[PayneTrain]

^^We both know that rule doesn't see as much use as it should, but you're right.

Coming from a team on an alliance that got knocked out from a red card in 2011, teams, READ THE RULES BEFORE YOU SHOW UP. So many people don't do that. It blows my mind.

[Dr. Shocker]

I figured that, but I thought it was significant because of all the talk about adding blocking screens to robots in eliminations.

There was something we wanted to add to our bot in case we were against certain bots, so we got inspected with them and took them off if they weren't in that match.

[NotaJoke]

We had 2 or 3 in Hub City. Human players might have been scoring 1 of 20-25 into either the 2- or 3-point goals in the matches I saw.

At the Traverse City district event, there was a human player who was extremely consistent, making around 4/6 of the disks each time. Any well trained and well practiced human player could do the same... Until the disks start going into the pyramid goals regularly! Also, I assume human players like him/her were another reason for the rule change.

[MikeE]

This rule has always been in effect for any change, major or minor, at any time in the event. Nothing new.

I don't think anyone objects to reinspection for major modification such as adding a mechanism (active or passive) per rule T11, but it is impractical to reinspect for every modification. If you follow the letter rather than the spirit of the rules, which of these would *not* require a reinspection?

Filing down a corner to give better clearance between parts
Replacing a nut with a locknut
replacing a faulty motor
ziptie several wires together
updating a timeout in the code
adding an accelerometer sensor

[CalTran]

I don't think anyone objects to reinspection for major modification such as adding a mechanism (active or passive) per rule T11, but it is impractical to reinspect for every modification. If you follow the letter rather than the spirit of the rules, which of these would *not* require a reinspection?

Filing down a corner to give better clearance between parts
Replacing a nut with a locknut
replacing a faulty motor
ziptie several wires together
updating a timeout in the code
adding an accelerometer sensor


T10, but technically, yes, that's true. I think certain things, from a practicality standpoint, can be ignored. IMHO, it only elicits a full reinspection after a visible physical change.
If a ROBOT is modified after it has passed Inspection, other than modifications described in T8, that ROBOT must be re-Inspected.
If an observation is made that another Team’s ROBOT may be in violation of the ROBOT rules, please approach FIRST officials to review the matter in question. This is an area where Gracious ProfessionalismTM is very important.

[EricH]

I don't think anyone objects to reinspection for major modification such as adding a mechanism (active or passive) per rule T11, but it is impractical to reinspect for every modification. If you follow the letter rather than the spirit of the rules, which of these would *not* require a reinspection?

Filing down a corner to give better clearance between parts
Replacing a nut with a locknut
replacing a faulty motor
ziptie several wires together
updating a timeout in the code
adding an accelerometer sensor


1 would not. You are removing material, not adding it.
2 could. A large nut could cause a weight limit breakage. However, I don't think this would necessarily be checked or caught.
3 is a repair, not a modification. No reinspection necessary--unless you used a different motor type.
4: see 2.
5 is a code change. No reinspection necessary. Software is not inspected, though versions are checked to make sure they are the proper ones.
6 would be a reinspection, albeit a quick one. Added wire needs to meet the rules, added sensor needs weight check. That would be a "Hey, we added _this_ to the robot, are we A-OK still?" check--5 minutes and out to the field.

Under most situations, the only one that would actually be inspected would be #6, if a robot was going to elims (the inspectors will ask if there are any changes at that point).

[kmusa]

At the Traverse City district event, there was a human player who was extremely consistent, making around 4/6 of the disks each time. Any well trained and well practiced human player could do the same... Until the disks start going into the pyramid goals regularly! Also, I assume human players like him/her were another reason for the rule change.

Actually, I think that it was the human players that weren't making at least 66% of their shots that caused the rule change. :D

[AllenGregoryIV]

Amen to that. 1126's suddenly improved drivetrain was quite the shocker, and so very, very well played. (Pardon me while I sob uncontrollably for a few minutes).

I do have to say, though, that 48's driver needs an award for the ballsiest defense I've ever seen in an FRC match ever--totally epic driving, that was!

Care to explain what 1126 did? Also does any one have video of 48's defense? I would love to see it.

[Libby K]

I've only skimmed the thread, so here's my observations - sorry if they're repeats.

Automated weight-scoring: Awkward when it's broken. Sometimes we were losing 582-14. However, when they take the score down off the big screen, the countdown timer goes too, since it's all the same graphic. It'd be helpful to change that, since some coaches look there instead of the ones on the alliance wall. (Also, at GSR the timer on the driver's station was occasionally not working. It was weird.)

Frisbee Blizzard: Much better than Week 0, but my official count was Near Misses- 10, Frisbees-to-the-face- 1. Most of those were white discs during robot-only times. Only a few were out of control HPs. Keep in mind, I was up taking pictures for my teams, so I was by the field a lot. But still, it gets crazy.

Weird Ref Happenings: 229 got bumped in the last few seconds of the match as we were on the 10-point hang, and the other 'bot was touching us when the buzzer sounded. Ref called for a reset before we could ask, but we were NOT awarded the climb-impedance-foul-points. The answer upon challenging was "Oh, sorry, we reset too quickly, I didn't see it." Sorry, Head Ref whose name I don't know, but that's all on you. If you're a ref, PLEASE look at the field at rest before you signal the all-clear.

Week one was a whole lot of fun for me. Looking forward to next week!

[Wayne TenBrink]

What is the likliehood that the GDC exercises their option to alter the scoring for pyramid by up to 10 points per level at the Championship? (Ref: Blue box under Section 3.1.5.2 of the manual)

If they plan to do it, I hope they let us know well in advance.

[Grim Tuesday]

Care to explain what 1126 did? Also does any one have video of 48's defense? I would love to see it.

1126 made a robot that was small enough to go under the pyramid but had an amazing drivetrain. The lurked under theirs and when their opponents (two slot loaders) came to get discs, they would pop out and waylay them like crazy. At one point I was worried that they were going to get a blockading the gameflow penalty when their alliance partner was lined up to shoot and the entire field was blocked.

As for 48's defense, I don't know if there is any FLR match footage yet but if I remember correctly, they scooted out from auto and pushed 1559 out from under they pyramid before they could begin their climb. It was crazy.


From what I've watched at the regional, the field is incredibly cramped around the pyramid and feeder stations. Defense is incredibly viable though somewhat contradictory - you want to be tall enough to block shots but short to go under the pyramid. If someone can do both and be pushy and fast, they are the ultimate third round pick.

Two shooters one defender is a better alliance than three shooters since the field gets clogged with people going from feeder station to goals and the scoring positions are somewhat limited. Uncoordinated alliances almost end up playing defense on themselves when one robot is driving from the feeder slot to the goals and another is going from goals to feeder slot. I think the ultimate alliance would be one full court shooter, one ground pickup shooter, and one underpyramid defender. Any shots missed by the full court shooter could then be picked up by the ground pickup and scored, as they are now on the right side of the field. However, at least at FLR, there is very little in the way of ground pickup. And when I say very little, I mean none. It looked like 48 and 1507 both had mechanisms but didn't use them, instead opting for feeder station.

A word of warning for anyone putting on lunchtime shot blockers: 578 put one on and their driver, not used to playing with a tall robot got a red card for contacting a robot climbing.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the GDC change points to 10-30-40 or even 0-30-40. Climbing seems to be under powered in relation to how difficult a task it was.

[Jaxom]

Under most situations, the only one that would actually be inspected would be #6, if a robot was going to elims (the inspectors will ask if there are any changes at that point).

If any of the other caused a significant change from your last recorded weight (remember, we re-weigh before elims) you'd also potentially get questioned about 1, 2, and 4. Assuming 50 locknuts or zip ties, or a very large "corner". :)

Bottom line...regardless of what you're changing it's safer & a lot quicker to pop over to the inspection table on Thursday afternoon to say "we're doing this; do you want to take a look?" If you don't, what could have taken 2 minutes when you have lots of time (and remember what you did) turns into 20 minutes when *everyone's* getting re-weighed & changes discussed. And when you'd rather be prepping for that important first quarterfinal.

[Steven Donow]

I noticed this on the FLR stream and looking at the layout for TCNJ, but what is the purpose of the LCD TVs next to the driver stations?

[Grim Tuesday]

I noticed this on the FLR stream and looking at the layout for TCNJ, but what is the purpose of the LCD TVs next to the driver stations?

Protocol states that you should place the screen on the same or opposite side of the scoring table along the horizontal side of the field so both alliances can see it. At FLR, the venue layout has seating on both sides so the screen is placed on the vertical end of the field, only one alliance can see the realtime score and match time left. The screen is placed next to the drivers on the opposite side of the field so they are not disadvantaged by not knowing the realtime score and time.

[DonRotolo]

7. Big sheets of lexan make for great noisemakers in the stands.No, not "great", but "Obnoxious". I can understand high school kids being oblivious to the hearing damage - I was a kid once, too - but please, please have some respect for the rest of the crowd. If you can't be loud with your voice, then you can't be loud. Capisce?

which of these would *not* require a reinspection?

ziptie several wires together

In 2012, that would have put up over the weight limit. :rolleyes:

[Alex Cormier]

Amen to that. 1126's suddenly improved drivetrain was quite the shocker, and so very, very well played. (Pardon me while I sob uncontrollably for a few minutes).

I do have to say, though, that 48's driver needs an award for the ballsiest defense I've ever seen in an FRC match ever--totally epic driving, that was!

I hope someone has videos of those matches. :-)

[artdutra04]

7. Big sheets of lexan make for great noisemakers in the stands.Please read:

4.13.3 Competition Spirit
We ask that you bring attention to your team in ways that are in good taste and in the spirit of the competition. Please refrain from the following:


Using noisemakers;
Using objects that can damage bleachers or floors;
Wearing inappropriate clothing; and/or
Taping or affixing items or papers to walls, bleachers, floors or other site areas.


Please make sure your team Pit and surrounding area is clean when you leave the site.I really wish these rules were better enforced.

I usually bring and wear earplugs to competitions, because usually its so loud I cannot have a conversation with the person next to me in the stands without yelling. It's bad when you have to text back and forth to communicate without losing your voice in ten minutes.

[Chris is me]

Line defense is the easiest way to play penalty-free defense on arbitrary opposition.

Cycle time is what separates the good from the great.

A pure hanger that doesn't move isn't nearly as valuable as people expected. A moving drive base, especially if you're under 30, makes you far more useful to an alliance since you can play defense.

Defense is more about top speed than pushing power this year.

There better be a good reason if you're more than 30 inches tall.

[smistthegreat]

If you're a dedicated hanger and hang from the front, back, or inside of the pyramid, you'll probably be in the way of any back of the pyramid shooters on your alliance.

[Mr. Lim]

And the one match that 610 lost at GSR was the one where the best defense was played on them (By far). There was a lack of defense in them in parts of qualifications and even in eliminations, and their scores reflected that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xPbuEmmgxE

The above is a link to the match you mentioned. I think the loss is far more attributable to 1519 bombing full-court shots off-screen than to defense played on us. We had the unfortunate event of our partner 319 dying near the middle of our pyramid preventing 610 from getting to our preferred shooting spot. It also prevented our 30 pt hanging partner, 3467, from getting to their preferred hanging spot. At 1:15 you can even see 3467 trying to push 319 out of the way, only to be blocked by both the leg of the pyramid and 610 shooting! The credit for this match really has to be given to 1519, who simply shot the lights out... simply an amazing team and robot.

There are a many examples of defense played on at GSR, in quals and elims. One of my favorites is this match, where both 509 and 166 play some very significant defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3FMKiaUXIM

Truthfully, we faced some form of defense in nearly every match we played. Our drive team did practice a fair amount playing against real defenses. They were fortunate enough to do drills against robots piloted by Nick Lawrence and Kaj Anantharajah. Nick and Kaj were given tall robots, and ours is of course short. Our driver (Austin) was told to make them look as silly as possible.

Let's just say there were some silly looking drivers...

...and a lot of broken (https://www.facebook.com/Team610/posts/451550611584543)robots

[coalhot]

I must say, week one was interesting. Not as high of scored at HH than I expected.

I did notice, however, some really mean and borderline illegal defense being played by a few teams when their robots malfunctioned during qualifications (lookin at you, 341 and 25). Between slamming mechanisms into opposing robots, driving on top of opposing robots, and slamming into the opposing driver station repeatedly, to the point that the field broke; it was...interesting.

All in all, a good weekend. Not what I expected, but hey, I only got hit by a frisbee once...in the face...

[bduddy]

As related to defense, I think that "anti-defense", or running interference on defending robots, is a potentially valuable role, especially to help full-court shooters get into position and also if teams start trying to block robots from getting to their pyramid. I wasn't able to watch many matches, but I saw this kind of play paying dividends pretty often...

[MooreteP]

Weird Ref Happenings: 229 got bumped in the last few seconds of the match as we were on the 10-point hang, and the other 'bot was touching us when the buzzer sounded. Ref called for a reset before we could ask, but we were NOT awarded the climb-impedance-foul-points. The answer upon challenging was "Oh, sorry, we reset too quickly, I didn't see it." Sorry, Head Ref whose name I don't know, but that's all on you. If you're a ref, PLEASE look at the field at rest before you signal the all-clear.

Week one was a whole lot of fun for me. Looking forward to next week!

Ah, the travails of week one.

I am sure these and the other referee issues will be addressed in their conference call. I would love to listen in.

[sircedric4]

Sorry, but the smiley face at the end of your post doesn't make it any less offensive to all the teams that worked their butt off (same as you) to build their effective frisbee shooters and 10 point climbers.

The quotes, the smiley face, and the explanation after the PS is there to ensure that no offense was given. This is the internet and even if you go to lengths to try and show that your statements are your own opinion and are not disparaging there is still a possibility of miscommunication.

I apologize to all those that took my remarks as disparaging when they were not meant that way. So another lesson learned from this thread. :-)

I think you're underestimating what a 50 point climber (climb + dump) can accomplish with a team who is a top notch shooter.

Yes these climbers and dumpers can be beaten with two solid shooters, but it all depends on the full alliance.

Actually I am feeling a lot better today than when I made my previous remarks, I was reading the average scores posted earlier as being per robot instead of per alliance. I do think we will find a place to fit in with our climber / dumper after all. And regardless we will have a cool looking robot and a lot of lessons learned to go forward with. Another lesson is don't post on Chief Delphi disappointed, stop and evaluate first. Emotions suck sometimes. :-)

[Jared Russell]

G30 is called very inconsistently.

In eliminations, a lot of matches turned into 6 robot scrums at midfield, with each side trying to get back to their feeder stations with 1 or 2 bots while the other(s) played D.

The lower rung of the pyramid is a bit lower than everyone expected.

Being 1/32" of an inch off the ground is as good as being 27" off the ground.

The pyramid is FAR less rigid than I expected. Anyone attempting a 30 point climb, especially on the corner, better hold on tight.

[Anupam Goli]

G30 is called very inconsistently.



This. Had to exit in the quarterfinals because G30 wasn't called at all. We also had some bad planning and poor strategy on our part, and I don't think we would've gotten past semis, but I was absolutely furious when we lost our last match and the 3 infractions of G30 weren't counted, but one accidental instance of G36 was counted.

[thefro526]

G30 is called very inconsistently.



For anyone competing in the coming weeks and planning on using the pyramid as a protected area, I suggest you keep the following handy:

Regardless of who initiates the contact, a ROBOT may not contact an opponent ROBOT

contacting its PYRAMID or
touching the carpet in its LOADING ZONE.


Violation: FOUL. If purposeful or consequential, TECHNICAL FOUL. If an opponent's CLIMB is affected, each affected opponent ROBOT will be awarded points for a successful Level 3 CLIMB.



Q138 (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/138/g30-has-different-penalties-if-the-act-is-consequential-or-purposeful-please-define-consequential-and-purposeful-with-respect-to-violations-of-g30-in-the-loading-zone)

Q. G30 has different penalties if the act is consequential or purposeful. Please define 'Consequential' and 'purposeful' with respect to violations of G30 in the LOADING ZONE.

A. Consequential means the action has an effect on the outcome of the MATCH. Purposeful means the action was deemed intentional.





Q145 (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/145/does-this-rule-also-apply-to-robots-that-are-contacting-the-pyramid-while-shooting-that-is-to-say-can-a-robot-contact-its-pyramid-to-aim-and-shoot-at-its-goals-and-consider-this-a-safe-zone-or-is)

Q. Does this rule also apply to robots that are contacting the pyramid while shooting? That is to say, can a robot contact its pyramid to aim and shoot at its goals and consider this a "safe zone"? Or is this rule only active when climbing the pyramid?

A. [G30] applies regardless of what the ROBOT is doing, so long as it is contacting its PYRAMID.



I think it's very clear to anyone that reads G30, Q138 and Q145 that intentional contact between a robot touching it's pyramid or loading station and a defender/opponent is prohibited and the opponent will be penalized. With that being said, if you are shooting, and that contact causes one of your shots to miss, a technical foul should be assessed as the match score has now been changed (effect on the outcome of the match).

That being said, there was a certain degree of 'right of way' protection that was assumed to have been created by G30 - that being if you're touching/nearly touching the pyramid and attempting to play the game (score) you would more or less be allowed to do what was required to continue playing - which we were told was not the case. Whether or not this will be called uniformly across all events has yet to be seen...

I guess the TLDR here is to go over G30 in detail with the head ref if it's relevant to your strategy, whether it be climbing or shooting, and make sure that if you're touching the pyramid, that it's CLEARLY visible from all/most angles on the field. A few teams had little flags and fiberglass sticks that would deform when they were in contact which seemed to make things a bit easier.

[Spatel7793]

Well after 1422 caught fire, I learned that Team 639 had the right idea in putting a smoke detector on their robot.

[MikeE]

The pyramid is FAR less rigid than I expected. Anyone attempting a 30 point climb, especially on the corner, better hold on tight.

It was also noticeable how the practice pyramid rigidity deteriotated as the regional progressed. By the end of qualifications it was significantly looser than the field pyramids. I suspect that absent some upgrades the field pyramids will become interestingly dynamic by Week 6 competitions.

[Daniel Brim]

The lower rung of the pyramid is a bit lower than everyone expected.Do you have a specific measurement for the height of the first bar? Or at least a ballpark value?

[Jared Russell]

Do you have a specific measurement for the height of the first bar? Or at least a ballpark value?

We measured ~28 1/4" from the floor to the bottom of the first bar (+/- 1/4" depending on which rung and which pyramid).

[EricLeifermann]

We measured ~28 1/4" from the floor to the bottom of the first bar (+/- 1/4" depending on which rung and which pyramid).

How are they that far out of spec? That is completely unacceptable.

[Racer26]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xPbuEmmgxE

The above is a link to the match you mentioned. I think the loss is far more attributable to 1519 bombing full-court shots off-screen than to defense played on us. We had the unfortunate event of our partner 319 dying near the middle of our pyramid preventing 610 from getting to our preferred shooting spot. It also prevented our 30 pt hanging partner, 3467, from getting to their preferred hanging spot. At 1:15 you can even see 3467 trying to push 319 out of the way, only to be blocked by both the leg of the pyramid and 610 shooting! The credit for this match really has to be given to 1519, who simply shot the lights out... simply an amazing team and robot.

There are a many examples of defense played on at GSR, in quals and elims. One of my favorites is this match, where both 509 and 166 play some very significant defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3FMKiaUXIM

Truthfully, we faced some form of defense in nearly every match we played. Our drive team did practice a fair amount playing against real defenses. They were fortunate enough to do drills against robots piloted by Nick Lawrence and Kaj Anantharajah. Nick and Kaj were given tall robots, and ours is of course short. Our driver (Austin) was told to make them look as silly as possible.

Let's just say there were some silly looking drivers...

...and a lot of broken (https://www.facebook.com/Team610/posts/451550611584543)robots

I remember thinking to myself watching the webcast that the 610 robot driving looked an awful lot like Nick driving 1503's 2011 bot. Now I don't have to wonder why, Nick helped train Austin!

[TD78]

We measured ~28 1/4" from the floor to the bottom of the first bar (+/- 1/4" depending on which rung and which pyramid).

We were going with 29-1/4" that we measured at NH.

We believe it was from the 1/2" plywood base + carpet lining + carpet underneath the pyramid. So the 30" from the actual floor the bots drive around on is 30"...but then you need to take into account the 3/4" of base underneath the pyramid.

The practice field didn't have the plywood base, so it threw my team all off until late Friday afternoon. Our hanger still didn't work as well as we would have hoped...but we didn't expect that curveball.

[DjScribbles]

While the strategic value of shooting 5pt shots from the floor (with 50% accuracy) is questionable, it sure does get the crowd going.

Floor pick up is much more valuable than I personally expected.

Autonomous points are very big this year; if you can reliably gather extra game pieces, your robot will really stand out.

This game piece is pretty difficult to move around consistently. It's easy to shoot, but loading and collecting caused a few jams that crippled us for a match.

Keep the practice field away from the screen with scoring displays. In Traverse City, the sheet behind the practice goals blocked the view of the scores for approximately 1/3 of the audience.

[Blackphantom91]

1). This Game is a lot harder than expected.
2.) Defense totally rewrites how the game is played. It makes it feel like it is played in turns.
3.) Full-court shooters are very successful in qualifications if not stopped, but may falter in Eliminations rounds.
4.) Auto is the most important part of this game. It is really hard to make a comeback if all hit and one side doesn't. (more so than other seasons)
5.)Defense is going to evolve even further as weeks go by teams shutting down main robots and teams being forced to rely on other partners.

Overall week one impressions autonomous,autonomous,autonomous! This game runs on it IMO.:) I am hoping to see more 30pt climbs and how it can effect the game later on.

[Chris is me]

The practice field didn't have the plywood base, so it threw my team all off until late Friday afternoon. Our hanger still didn't work as well as we would have hoped...but we didn't expect that curveball.

For us, the measured difference between an arbitrary rung on the practice field and competition field was more than 1 inch.

Measuring the field and adjust-ability in your hanging mechanism are both mandatory this year, I'm afraid.

[EricLeifermann]

We were going with 29-1/4" that we measured at NH.

We believe it was from the 1/2" plywood base + carpet lining + carpet underneath the pyramid. So the 30" from the actual floor the bots drive around on is 30"...but then you need to take into account the 3/4" of base underneath the pyramid.

The practice field didn't have the plywood base, so it threw my team all off until late Friday afternoon. Our hanger still didn't work as well as we would have hoped...but we didn't expect that curveball.

The problem is that the prints, the manual, and the official field tour videos, show the 30 inches(center) from the floor to be from where the pyramid connects to the floor which is technically on top of the .5in steel, or in the case of districts plywood. So if we follow that correctly when measured from the floor and not the top of the base plate the 1st rung should be 30.5 in(center) or 29.75(bottom) from the floor. So the 28.25" that Jared measured is out of spec by 1.25 inches if measured from the floor or .75 inches if measured to the base plate. I would hope that FIRST wouldn't have put the tolerance of the pyramids in the "the field can be out of spec by 4 inches" specification as the pyramid is such an integral part of the game that it would be a slap in the face to all the teams who designed climbers or robots they thought were short enough to go under the bar but might not be able to at every competition they go to.

[TD78]

The problem is that the prints, the manual, and the official field tour videos, show the 30 inches(center) from the floor to be from where the pyramid connects to the floor which is technically on top of the .5in steel, or in the case of districts plywood. So if we follow that correctly when measured from the floor and not the top of the base plate the 1st rung should be 30.5 in(center) or 29.75(bottom) from the floor. So the 28.25" that Jared measured is out of spec by 1.25 inches if measured from the floor or .75 inches if measured to the base plate. I would hope that FIRST wouldn't have put the tolerance of the pyramids in the "the field can be out of spec by 4 inches" specification as the pyramid is such an integral part of the game that it would be a slap in the face to all the teams who designed climbers or robots they thought were short enough to go under the bar but might not be able to at every competition they go to.

Trust me, I'm just as confused and frustrated!!! I originally thought the 30" was to the top of the first bar as well (in the game manual). Then I looked at a later rev of the game manual and the dimension looked to be in the center of the bar. In the end, my team attempted to make our static hanger adjustable. I say attempt because I still had to spend 45 minutes at the regional machine shop getting the slots elongated (thank you to the machinist who helped me out!!). So with the full adjusted hanger that *should* have worked on the actually field (we had moved the hanger down based on the drive team's observations), the nose of the hanger was hitting the center of the bar on the practice field (which was measured at ~30" to the center of the first bar from the carpet)... A lot of head scratching until the field bar was measured and we started using 29-1/4". Heard a lot of other teams at BAE were having problems with the bar too.

[Woolly]

Also, on the subject of the pyramid, robots are standing up to falls better than anticipated. There was damage from falls, but I didn't see anything that really messed up a robot unless it flipped off the pyramid and landed directly on a mechanism.

[electroken]

EDIT: A top heavy robot is a fallen over robot. I won't feel bad for you when your robot falls over if you designed it to fall over, no offense intended.



Despite other problems, this was the final undoing of the #3 alliance at GSR.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

...I think the ultimate alliance would be one full court shooter, one ground pickup shooter, and one underpyramid defender. Any shots missed by the full court shooter could then be picked up by the ground pickup and scored, as they are now on the right side of the field...

Thank you!!! I've been saying this since the end of week six when the Human Player rule change happened. Nice to see someone else agree with me.

[Gdeaver]

That powder coated conduit is much more slippery than we anticipated. Much worse than raw conduit or can spray painted conduit. We intend to drive up the rail however we need more grip from the wheels. Some very well done shooters and way to many marginal shooters. Last week I was fearing very accurate cross court shooters. I did not see any that struck fear. Will they emerge in the following weeks? A 10 point hang was very effective for week 1 but will it not be enough going forward? Will the quick 20 or thirty point climber gain dominance? Taking the whole tele opp to climb is not good enough and a risky partner. Is a pyramid safe zone really a safe zone? Seems the refs at different venues had varying interpretations of this. One thing for sure this game has plenty of room to evolve.

[notmattlythgoe]

It is very easy for defenders to slow down the flow of the game.

[MrForbes]

I only saw a few matches on the webcasts, mostly during eliminations. I was surprised how few teams were attempting floor pickup in autonomous...this looked to me early on to be a great strategy, and more "worth the effort" than building a high climbing mechanism.

[MisterG]

Actually I am feeling a lot better today than when I made my previous remarks, I was reading the average scores posted earlier as being per robot instead of per alliance. I do think we will find a place to fit in with our climber / dumper after all. And regardless we will have a cool looking robot and a lot of lessons learned to go forward with. Another lesson is don't post on Chief Delphi disappointed, stop and evaluate first. Emotions suck sometimes. :-)

Darren,

I was really happy to see you post this follow up. We have all had the feeling that we brought a knife to a gunfight. On the other hand if you can do even one aspect of the game consistently you will stand out during scouting and have a decent chance of being picked.

-al g

[CalTran]

Is a pyramid safe zone really a safe zone? Seems the refs at different venues had varying interpretations of this. One thing for sure this game has plenty of room to evolve.

This is definitely something that will be clarified in a Blog post, and if not definitely asked during the Driver meetings. Specifically, how the Refs at the tournament will be calling out G27 and G30.

::rtm:: ... ::rtm:: ... ::rtm::

ROBOTS may not contact or otherwise interfere with their opponents’ PYRAMID. Inconsequential contact will not be penalized.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL. If an opponent’s CLIMB is affected,

RED CARD, and
Each affected opponent ROBOT will be awarded points for a successful Level 3 CLIMB.

G30
Regardless of who initiates the contact, a ROBOT may not contact an opponent ROBOT


contacting its PYRAMID or
touching the carpet in its LOADING ZONE.



Violation: FOUL. If purposeful or consequential, TECHNICAL FOUL. If an opponent's CLIMB is affected, each affected opponent ROBOT will be awarded points for a successful Level 3 CLIMB.

Emphasis (Emphasi?) mine. By reading of the rules, if Red 1 is in contact with the Red Pyramid, and Blue 1 contacts Red 1, then it is a foul (Technical if the robot is climbing), as per G30, AND regardless of who initiated contact. HOWEVER, If Blue 1 contacts the Red PYRAMID then it is a TECHNICAL foul AND a potential RED CARD if Red 1 is in the act of climbing, as per G27. Each ruling carries the potential for a 50 point Super-Technical, should Red 1 be in the process of climbing.

That's how I currently interpret the rules, and I implore you to correct me if I'm wrong.

[Elong451]

We drove down to Palmetto to watch, and it seemed to me as though fouls were not being called nearly as often as they should have been. While I can't remember numbers, I recall one incident where a red robot repeatedly (at least 3 times) rammed into a blue robot touching it's pyramid. One minute later... 0 foul points.

The situation did seem to improve in the finals.

@Text change

I could swear I saw the regular, black numbering on the streams from other regionals. The only one I noticed that *did* have the clear numbering was Palmetto. I could be wrong however.

That team did that to us and we played blue and they got like all the foul points. Who sacrifices themselves to do such a stupid thing to the teams on their alliance?

[thefro526]

Emphasis (Emphasi?) mine. By reading of the rules, if Red 1 is in contact with the Red Pyramid, and Blue 1 contacts Red 1, then it is a foul (Technical if the robot is climbing), as per G30, AND regardless of who initiated contact. HOWEVER, If Blue 1 contacts the Red PYRAMID then it is a TECHNICAL foul AND a potential RED CARD if Red 1 is in the act of climbing, as per G27. Each ruling carries the potential for a 50 point Super-Technical, should Red 1 be in the process of climbing.

That's how I currently interpret the rules, and I implore you to correct me if I'm wrong.

If you look at my post a page back, you'll see the Q&A relevant to these kinds of situations, those Q/A responses are what I base my response below on.

Basically, if a Red Robot is Touching the Red Pyramid and is contacted or contacts a blue robot while doing nothing else, then it is a foul.

If that same red robot is attempting to score either by shooting or climbing and the same contact happens, then technically there should be a technical foul because the contact was 'consequential' - if this contact causes the red robot to miss a shot/miss-climb/etc as the contact has changed the outcome of the match.

As far as G27 is concerned, assuming Consequential contact is ruled the same for both G30 and G27, if you contact your opponents pyramid and it has no effect on the outcome of the match**, then there are no problems.

** Meaning that you did not cause a robot to fail at doing something or to do something that it wouldn't have failed/done otherwise.

[Jared Russell]

(This was originally Dustin's idea)

I humbly suggest to the GDC that a tape square connecting the four legs of the pyramid be added to the field, and G30 be re-defined such that when any part of a robot is on/inside the tape line, it gets G30 protection. It is WAY easier for the referees, drive teams, and the audience to see whether a robot is touching something on the floor plane than a pyramid with more complex 3D geometry.

[notmattlythgoe]

(This was originally Dustin's idea)

I humbly suggest to the GDC that a tape square connecting the four legs of the pyramid be added to the field, and G30 be re-defined such that when any part of a robot is on/inside the tape line, it gets G30 protection. It is WAY easier for the referees, drive teams, and the audience to see whether a robot is touching something on the floor plane than a pyramid with more complex 3D geometry.

While this is a good idea. It is currently unfair to the teams that specifically made design choices knowing that lining up against the side of a pyramid to shoot from was not going to be an easy task. By adding the take you've taken the difficulty of getting into the safe zone out of the equation.

[Anupam Goli]

While this is a good idea. It is currently unfair to the teams that specifically made design choices knowing that lining up against the side of a pyramid to shoot from was not going to be an easy task. By adding the take you've taken the difficulty of getting into the safe zone out of the equation.

I'm not sure if GDC intended for it to be difficult to get into the safe zone though. It currently is really tough to tell when G30 is violated. When I look back at our quarterfinals matches at palmetto, there are multiple infractions of G30, but it's definitely hard to tell and I almost can't blame the refs for not catching them. There needs to be an easier way to catch G30 infractions, or add the tape around the pyramid.

[Wayne TenBrink]

If you look at my post a page back, you'll see the Q&A relevant to these kinds of situations, those Q/A responses are what I base my response below on.

Basically, if a Red Robot is Touching the Red Pyramid and is contacted or contacts a blue robot while doing nothing else, then it is a foul.

If that same red robot is attempting to score either by shooting or climbing and the same contact happens, then technically there should be a technical foul because the contact was 'consequential' - if this contact causes the red robot to miss a shot/miss-climb/etc as the contact has changed the outcome of the match.

As far as G27 is concerned, assuming Consequential contact is ruled the same for both G30 and G27, if you contact your opponents pyramid and it has no effect on the outcome of the match**, then there are no problems.

** Meaning that you did not cause a robot to fail at doing something or to do something that it wouldn't have failed/done otherwise.

This is what happened in Finals Match 2 at Traverse City. 2474 was in contact with the pyramid and in the process of shooting when they were hit 4 times by an opponent. The contact was deemed consequential, and we were awarded 4 technical fouls. The final score of 184-90 included 80 penalty points (too bad we couldn't have run that up without them...).

[Jared Russell]

While this is a good idea. It is currently unfair to the teams that specifically made design choices knowing that lining up against the side of a pyramid to shoot from was not going to be an easy task. By adding the take you've taken the difficulty of getting into the safe zone out of the equation.

Yes, this is true. But it makes G30 calls a lot easier to see while not invalidating anyone's design (besides, robots with soccer flags or similar to align to the sides of a pyramid have a second advantage: a mechanical aid or visual fiducial to help aim their shots).

[PayneTrain]

I imagine G27 and G30 are topics that will be on the conference call, as well as the frisbee counters (I think by Championships they will have to pause play because there is a good chance all 28 frisbees at the start of the game could easily find their way in and near the goals during auton by then) and other fun things.

For now, I suggest this to teams. There are driver meetings at events. Sometimes there are 2 or more. Bring up both rules and associated crucial Q&As. Have the drive coach keep certain rules on their person at all times in the form of an index card to quote while in the yellow box(something I intended to do last year, didn't and lost a crucial match because I couldn't cite the rule). Make very obvious contact pieces on your robot like brightly colored "bunny ears" or flashing lights denoting contact with the pyramid, which will also help you with lining up the robot. Keep everyone honest, including yourselves.

[Moriarty]

Looking at the long run for FIRST I am extremely excited in how this year is going. As others said, the playing field is leveled and this is an important step in making FIRST a much more teamwork driven, competitive spectator sport. Now teams have to scout, and clever game-day strategy can trump superior robot design. FIRST isn't only about the robot, and this change can foster better teamwork and make FIRST even more exciting. No one wants to see a match where 3 bots work and of those only 2 score. A match of 6 robots, with different skill levels (like in the elimination matches of previous years) is a lot more exciting than a match where the outcome can be predetermined by robot design.

Some teams have expressed disappointment in thinking their specialized design (e.g, 30 point climb + 20 point dump) has turned out less effective than they thought. This is a product of what I see as a move towards teamwork driven competition. A fully autonomous climb, while a feat of engineering, is not the best team player. Teams with these kinds of robots will need to focus on clever team matchings (macro-strategy?) rather than in-game strategy (micro-strategy?). This reflects another aspect of this years game: trying to stop teams from being able to do everything. I think some teams are having trouble adjusting. This year (for the vast majority of teams) the winning alliances will not be composed of robots that can do everything. Now, regardless of which strategy you pick (climb, close shooter, ground pickup, etc), you can still contribute to an alliance.

However, something that may not be as obvious is the effect of this on team sustainability. Beneath the obvious reasons for loss of teams (money, mentorship, resources) lies a more fundamental and psychological factor of sustainability: Team morale. I suspect many new teams that come into the competition unable to compete become so discouraged that they don't want to come back next year. For newer teams (mine included) qualification matches became a game of chance: we would scan the match schedule in the hopes of being paired with a team that could actually score. This left much of my team discouraged, and many of our members quit. This applies to many newer teams. An encouraged team that comes into the competition able to contribute to their alliance is much more likely to be determined to become better. In order to become better they will then seek fundraising and professional mentors. Making a game where an alliance of rookie teams could work together and defeat a veteran team through strong teamwork and preparation could help solve the sustainability issue in FIRST on a psychological level, and without the need to invest millions in sustaining grants to discouraged teams.

A change is coming, and everyone, veteran teams included need to be conscious of it. Those that rely too much on robot design and not enough on teamwork may find themselves performing worse in this year than in others.

EDIT: I need to work on concise writing.... o.o

[Brian Selle]

I only saw a few matches on the webcasts, mostly during eliminations. I was surprised how few teams were attempting floor pickup in autonomous...this looked to me early on to be a great strategy, and more "worth the effort" than building a high climbing mechanism.

1) The floor pickup during autonomous is huge. I definitely think you will see at least one team on every championship alliance with this capability. This past weekend at Hub City we were up against 1986 in the semi-finals. When they single-handily rain 42 pts in 15 seconds right above your head there is a psychological impact not to mention the 24 pts you need to make up.

2) Defense is huge. Fast <30" robots can significantly slow down the shooters. At Hub City, I was really surprised to see 1801 slip through the cracks until the #1 1986 alliance got them on their 3rd pick. If anything the other alliances needed a defensive robot like this to beat 1986. During one of the qualification matches I saw 1986 either stopped or running for their lives when 1801 was playing defense against them. They were still able to get to/from the feeder station but their cycles times were significantly extended. I'll bet they were pretty darn happy to have them on their alliance instead be playing against them during the elimination rounds.

3) I wish there was a little more point incentive to go for the top climb. 10, 20, 40 pts like last year's bridge would be great. It's a huge risk and hard to do... it deserves a special bonus. It's also a huge crowd pleaser... the whole stadium gets loud and lights up when a team is going for it. I think the 30 pt climbs will become more important as the season progresses but you have to do it fast or it's not worth it.

[GBilletdeaux930]

Scoring is very fair this year. Not nearly as one sided as years like 2007.

When I did the averages, they came out to be around 19 pts in Auton, 19 pts in Tele, and 16 pts in climbing per alliance.

I suppose this could be improved slightly by finding a way to increase climbing scores just a hair, and the way to do this may be increasing to 10, 20, 40 like others have suggested. But eliminating the 10pt climb will drop that average down severely, and raising the 10pt to something else will raise the average severely too.

I don't expect these scores to change too much. Comparing to years like 2008 where every method of point scoring was viable and would win you regionals (see 148), there was absolutely no change in scores from week 1 to week 6.

Last year, as more and more teams began balancing, the scores went up 33% from week 1 to week 6 but I don't see more teams climbing to 30 because of one fact. About half the teams I've seen climb, climb on the inside or would be hindered by a robot climbing on the inside. At champs, yeah I bet we'd see 3 corner climbers. At regionals, I don't expect it to be as prevalent and teams will continue to pick robots for their shooting ability, not their preferred climbing area. Especially since their aren't enough climbers to guarantee a climbing alliance.

If there is an increase in scores, it'll be because of more 10 pt hangers, or robots perfecting their shooting and finding those sweet spots.

[jspatz1]

1) During one of the qualification matches I saw 1986 either stopped or running for their lives when 1801 was playing defense against them.
We would prefer to call it running to the open lane. :D

I'll bet they were pretty darn happy to have them on their alliance instead be playing against them during the elimination rounds.

This.

[Lil' Lavery]

What 1712 learned:

1) If you can't score in autonomous, you won't get picked.
2) Remember to adjust your arm counterweight after you remove weight from your arm
3) It's hard to change and test code in the district format. Just not enough time between matches and it takes too long to deploy to the cRIO.
4) It's really easy to play smart and effective defense.
5) Most teams do not play smart and effective defense.
6) It doesn't take very long to hang for 10, but it takes a while to reposition after a botched hang.

[GCentola]

I do have to say, though, that 48's driver needs an award for the ballsiest defense I've ever seen in an FRC match ever--totally epic driving, that was!

Agreed. The first time I saw them do that, I was in total awe. I could not believe they pulled it off. Again, congratulations to 1405, 3003 and 1559, but watching 48 shut down 1559 was super amazing.

[thefro526]

While this is a good idea. It is currently unfair to the teams that specifically made design choices knowing that lining up against the side of a pyramid to shoot from was not going to be an easy task. By adding the take you've taken the difficulty of getting into the safe zone out of the equation.

I don't see the problem here.

As I can see it, the pyramid was clearly intended to be a protected part of the playing field, in the same way that the bridges and key were last year. When speaking with our partners and drivers at the last event, we always played the game as if this were true. Once a team got close to their pyramid, you back off and let them on their way regardless of if they were touching the pyramid or not. What is touching from one angle may not appear to be touching from another (witnessed this first hand) and that is due to the structure of the pyramid.

With all of that being said, all the tape would do is give observers, referees, drive teams, scouts, etc a good way to tell if a robot is in the protected zone defined by the pyramid. I don't see how this hurts anyone's design decisions because if you designed a robot to play any aspect of the game that involves the pyramid (which every robot does at some point) you'll benefit from the pyramid being defined by tape on the floor instead of the physical structure.

[notmattlythgoe]

I don't see the problem here.

As I can see it, the pyramid was clearly intended to be a protected part of the playing field, in the same way that the bridges and key were last year. When speaking with our partners and drivers at the last event, we always played the game as if this were true. Once a team got close to their pyramid, you back off and let them on their way regardless of if they were touching the pyramid or not. What is touching from one angle may not appear to be touching from another (witnessed this first hand) and that is due to the structure of the pyramid.

With all of that being said, all the tape would do is give observers, referees, drive teams, scouts, etc a good way to tell if a robot is in the protected zone defined by the pyramid. I don't see how this hurts anyone's design decisions because if you designed a robot to play any aspect of the game that involves the pyramid (which every robot does at some point) you'll benefit from the pyramid being defined by tape on the floor instead of the physical structure.

Currently, to be in the safe zone you must be touching the pyramid. Lining up to shoot and also making sure you are touching the pyramid is much harder than just driving up close to the pyramid and aiming.

[EricLeifermann]

Currently, to be in the safe zone you must be touching the pyramid. Lining up to shoot and also making sure you are touching the pyramid is much harder than just driving up close to the pyramid and aiming.

Pretty sure it is quite easy to drive up to the pyramid, touch it, aim, and fire all in less than a second. It just depends where on the pyramid you are trying to touch/shoot from.

[notmattlythgoe]

Pretty sure it is quite easy to drive up to the pyramid, touch it, aim, and fire all in less than a second. It just depends where on the pyramid you are trying to touch/shoot from.

Right, from the back it is perfectly easy, but driving up and shooting from the side of the pyramid while touching it is not as easy.

[Dr. Shocker]

(This was originally Dustin's idea)

I humbly suggest to the GDC that a tape square connecting the four legs of the pyramid be added to the field, and G30 be re-defined such that when any part of a robot is on/inside the tape line, it gets G30 protection. It is WAY easier for the referees, drive teams, and the audience to see whether a robot is touching something on the floor plane than a pyramid with more complex 3D geometry.

If something like this WAS implemented, 48 never would have been able to pull off what they did. It was an amazing sight, we still lost, but it was still very exciting to watch.

[Jeffy]

Can anyone give a little insight into going under the opponents pyramid?

I've heard of it being used to evade defense. My main concern is whether referees were ruling things like "antennae" (zip ties, flags, ect) as inconsequential contact and therefore not calling fouls when you zip under the opponents pyramid.

[Alpha Beta]

Can anyone give a little insight into going under the opponents pyramid?

I've heard of it being used to evade defense. My main concern is whether referees were ruling things like "antennae" (zip ties, flags, ect) as inconsequential contact and therefore not calling fouls when you zip under the opponents pyramid.

We were never penalized for going under the opponent pyramid and our zipties and arm do brush the pyramid bar as we pass by.

It did seem difficult for referees to judge. They were quick to call the foul if someone was trying to hang (even someone who did not have an operational climbing mechanism), but seemed reluctant to call it for robots who were in the act of shooting. Penalties seemed to be better defined in elimination matches than they were in qualifications, and I expect rules to be even more consistent in week 2. Would love for someone to tape the drivers meeting at a week 2 event to hear about how things are being called, or to have a referee chime in after the call to give us a heads up about how they want to enforce things.

[Dr. Shocker]

Can anyone give a little insight into going under the opponents pyramid?

I've heard of it being used to evade defense. My main concern is whether referees were ruling things like "antennae" (zip ties, flags, ect) as inconsequential contact and therefore not calling fouls when you zip under the opponents pyramid.

We used going under the pyramid FOR defense. I know that when we were figuring out how to contact the pyramid to help our aiming, we made sure that it was retractable to run no risk of hitting the opponents pyramid, except at the corners.

[DanielCH]

Can anyone give a little insight into going under the opponents pyramid?

I've heard of it being used to evade defense. My main concern is whether referees were ruling things like "antennae" (zip ties, flags, ect) as inconsequential contact and therefore not calling fouls when you zip under the opponents pyramid.

This was a technique we used frequently at CVR to evade tall defenders on our way to and from the feeder station. The head ref made it clear in a discussion I had with him that as long as no one's climb -- or ability to climb -- was affected, fouls would not be given.

I have a recording of said discussion I could post if anyone is interested.

[tinybob20]

It seems that popular opinion suggests that a reliable 30 point climb isn't viable. I disagree. Our robot could score about 48 points a match, (18 auto, 30 climb), and I found many of our matches coming down to 70-80 point games. I think having at least one reliable 30 point climb on an alliance to be a great asset. I also found that defense played a huge role in the final matches of the elimination rounds, especially against full-court shooters.

[PayneTrain]

It seems that popular opinion suggests that a reliable 30 point climb isn't viable. I disagree. Our robot could score about 48 points a match, (18 auto, 30 climb), and I found many of our matches coming down to 70-80 point games. I think having at least one reliable 30 point climb on an alliance to be a great asset. I also found that defense played a huge role in the final matches of the elimination rounds, especially against full-court shooters.

There is a popular opinion that a reliable 30 point climb and 20 point dump only is not viable if you think you can win a match all by yourself.

7 weeks ago there was a popular strategic opinion floating in the community that a 50 point climb/dump would be a slam dunk to single-handedly win matches because games are historically very low-scoring outside of MSC/MAR/CMP/IRI. Some people (read as: myself and I'm sure a few others) nixed that idea and tried to nudge their teams into nixing that idea because the game can clearly be seen as one capable of high scores in the frisbee goals because of its rigidity as a game piece and its more accessible targets.

Still, climb/dump specialists which accomplish the secondary objective very well are great as secondary alliance partners. They are in no way inferior to all disc-throwing robot or disc/30pt climbs, but it accomplishes a secondary objective with a capped point-scoring ability and thus is a likely secondary partner to a strategy, not a primary partner or alliance captain.

[45Auto]

There is a popular opinion that a reliable 50 point robot is not viable if you think you can win a match all by yourself.

7 weeks ago there was a popular strategic opinion floating in the community that a 50 point robot would be a slam dunk to single-handedly win matches. Some people (read as: myself and I'm sure a few others) nixed that idea and tried to nudge their teams into analyzing their capabilities to produce the highest scoring robot possible. For a few teams that was a 100 point robot, a few more it was 70 point robot, a few more it was a 50 point robot, and for the vast majority it is a less-than-15 point robot (based on the first week alliance scoring averages).

Still, robots which accomplish the primary objective of scoring points (is there a secondary objective? maybe playing defense?) are highly desirable as alliance partners. Points are points, whether they're scored at the beginning of the game in autonomous or at the end of the game on the pyramid. A smart alliance captain will select his alliance based on the combination which he believes will maximize his alliance's scoring capabilities in relation to his opponents.

A robot which consistently scores less than 50 points is a likely secondary partner to a strategy, not a primary partner or alliance captain.

[waialua359]

We were never penalized for going under the opponent pyramid and our zipties and arm do brush the pyramid bar as we pass by.


This is good to know for our antenna as well.

However, are you saying that if you do it while a robot is trying to climb, that its a foul?

[pfreivald]

We identified early in the build season that a 30 point climb + 20 point dump was a viable strategy if and only if it could be done with sufficient alacrity, because the potential for scoring frisbees is so darn high this year. Yes, a lot of teams fail at basic functionality every year, but not enough of them to make climb+dump-only a viable game winner in the long term.

We failed in a rather epic manner to pull off a fast 30 point climb, which translated into an inconsistent and too-hard-to-line-up 10 point climb at FLR, but this problem will be fixed at Buckeye. :)

[thefro526]

Right, from the back it is perfectly easy, but driving up and shooting from the side of the pyramid while touching it is not as easy.

Doing it from the side is as easy as adding two pieces of fiberglass rod (or similar**) to your robot to make sure that if any part of your machine is under the pyramid, it's touching some point on the horizontal bar of level 1.

That being said, the intent of the pyramid rules seems to be quite clear to most people, but they're not written in such a way that they can be clearly and decisively called by a ref without that ref finding the correct vantage point.

I guess my big problem with the pyramid rules as written are that they do not award any protection to a machine that is inside of the pyramid but not touching it. One would think that this robot is offered some sort of protection, but that is not the case.

**Realistically, we could all go the vex route and start using zipties to extend a robot's contact points outside of traditional structure, but I like to think that we don't need to go there..

[falconmaster]

Watching on the web, I noticed that the majority of frisbees on the ground were right-side up.
I am glad to be confirmed on this prediction. What a relief!

[Grim Tuesday]

Doing it from the side is as easy as adding two pieces of fiberglass rod (or similar**) to your robot to make sure that if any part of your machine is under the pyramid, it's touching some point on the horizontal bar of level 1.

That being said, the intent of the pyramid rules seems to be quite clear to most people, but they're not written in such a way that they can be clearly and decisively called by a ref without that ref finding the correct vantage point.

I guess my big problem with the pyramid rules as written are that they do not award any protection to a machine that is inside of the pyramid but not touching it. One would think that this robot is offered some sort of protection, but that is not the case.

**Realistically, we could all go the vex route and start using zipties to extend a robot's contact points outside of traditional structure, but I like to think that we don't need to go there..

I absolutely don't think this years game needs any more protected zones. The field is already cramped enough with the pyramids taking up huge swaths of space and robots trying to travel around them to feeder stations. Teams who planned (notably not mine) to travel under they pyramid to lower the traffic jam should be given their requisite bonus in not being penalized.

[tinybob20]

"I guess my big problem with the pyramid rules as written are that they do not award any protection to a machine that is inside of the pyramid but not touching it. One would think that this robot is offered some sort of protection, but that is not the case."

I can say I've seen this first-hand. On our alliance, we were the designated "climb-bot." in the final match (our bot lines up for a climb on the inside on one of the sides of the pyramid) we were pushed completely out of the pyramid by a defender, and just held away from the pyramid for the remainder of the match. I believe defense is going to be much bigger this year, compared to last.

[Sam_Mills]

We learned the importance of a good human player. Good HPs can severely reduce cycle times, and with so many human fed robots, this can make or break an alliance. Our HP was arguably the best at the Palmetto regional (at loading not throwing), and he is a major reason why we were successful.

[Travis Hoffman]

"I guess my big problem with the pyramid rules as written are that they do not award any protection to a machine that is inside of the pyramid but not touching it. One would think that this robot is offered some sort of protection, but that is not the case."

I can say I've seen this first-hand. On our alliance, we were the designated "climb-bot." in the final match (our bot lines up for a climb on the inside on one of the sides of the pyramid) we were pushed completely out of the pyramid by a defender, and just held away from the pyramid for the remainder of the match. I believe defense is going to be much bigger this year, compared to last.


Eh, you guys still won. :D Still can't find good video of that. I really wish the FLR webcast was archived like the prior years....

[dman14]

I guess my big problem with the pyramid rules as written are that they do not award any protection to a machine that is inside of the pyramid but not touching it. One would think that this robot is offered some sort of protection, but that is not the case.

Many teams, including my own, read the rules to the letter, and hence designed our robot in such a way that it will most certainly be touching it's tower while in shooting position. We discarded shooting from under the centre of the tower, and limited ourselves to the edges in order to be in the protection zone. I felt that it was a design constraint that needed to be given attention, rather than a loophole, or poorly written rule.

I don't have an objection to the tape on the floor idea, but I can see where other's objections may come from as it invalidates clever designs and fine tuned mechanisms that some teams may have built in order to touch the tower.

[Travis Hoffman]

I don't have an objection to the tape on the floor idea, but I can see where other's objections may come from as it invalidates clever designs and fine tuned mechanisms that some teams may have built in order to touch the tower.

...or defensive strategies based on the correct, to the letter interpretation of the rule.

Contact is contact. They don't count "touching air" for level incursion determination while climbing. Why would they count touching air for G30 penalties? You're protected if you are touching the PYRAMID.

"PYRAMID: the Red or Blue steel structure on which ROBOTS CLIMB for points."

Don't see "the air or carpet surrounding said steel structure" anywhere in there. ;)

[Chris is me]

Many teams, including my own, read the rules to the letter, and hence designed our robot in such a way that it will most certainly be touching it's tower while in shooting position. We discarded shooting from under the centre of the tower, and limited ourselves to the edges in order to be in the protection zone. I felt that it was a design constraint that needed to be given attention, rather than a loophole, or poorly written rule.

I am very sure that Dustin and his team read the rules to the letter. He is not proposing a rule change because he screwed up his own design. (edit: my apologies, this came out way harsher than I meant it to...)

Even if you do play to the edges of the tower, there is significantly less protection than you'd expect. Touching the corner of the tower, and then aiming while still clearly touching it, are both non-trivial. Lots of teams would drive up and touch or almost touch it, but then started to aim, drifted a half inch away, and then were completely vulnerable to defense. Not to mention referees seem to err on the side of no penalty when contact is ambiguous.

The pyramid is no 2012 key.

[Patrick Flynn]

Eh, you guys still won. :D Still can't find good video of that. I really wish the FLR webcast was archived like the prior years....

I have the whole FLR webcast recorded on my computer, well not all of it but most. If anyone wants to help split it up or wants me to send it their way let me know. Otherwise I will be working on getting it onto TBA but I'm a bit busy with school at the moment

[Steven Sigley]

At least at CVR:
Full court shooters are king. I saw two teams shooting full court and when they were dialed in they were making shots so fast it was insane. I counted roughly 11 frisbees shot into the top goal in about 25 seconds in one match. Alliances had to plan entirely around stopping these shooters. Even then it wasn't enough, team 840 took home the gold and it was well-deserved.

[dman14]

I am very sure that Dustin and his team read the rules to the letter. He is not proposing a rule change because he screwed up his own design.
I did not mean to imply this at all, and my apologies if it seemed like it. I too feel like the tower does deserves more protection, as I saw way too many G30's go uncalled. We just have to be careful about giving an advantage to certain designs with said increase in protection. (re your edit, I felt the same about my post. Words do not convey tone very well xD)

The pyramid is no 2012 key.
You can say that again.

[Storcky]

It only happened to this degree a couple of time in Lubbock, but there were many times that the field reset folks were out there with tape on smaller repairs.

Did this ever get a penalty from G14?

[Jaxom]

Did this ever get a penalty from G14?

Not that I'm aware, but a) they didn't always specify which rules were being used for penalties, and b) I wasn't always paying close attention by that point. Given some of the other non-calls, I wouldn't be surprised if "no" is the correct answer to your question.

[D.Allred]

...or defensive strategies based on the correct, to the letter interpretation of the rule.

Contact is contact. They don't count "touching air" for level incursion determination while climbing. Why would they count touching air for G30 penalties? You're protected if you are touching the PYRAMID.

"PYRAMID: the Red or Blue steel structure on which ROBOTS CLIMB for points."

Don't see "the air or carpet surrounding said steel structure" anywhere in there. ;)

Agreed. Taping the floor to create a larger protected area would be another significant rule change.

[thefro526]

I absolutely don't think this years game needs any more protected zones. The field is already cramped enough with the pyramids taking up huge swaths of space and robots trying to travel around them to feeder stations. Teams who planned (notably not mine) to travel under they pyramid to lower the traffic jam should be given their requisite bonus in not being penalized.

Simon, we actually utilize the same strategy. Being able to move under and through the pyramids essentially makes the field something like 20% larger than if you couldn't. Not to mention that discs have a tendancy to pile up inside and in front of the pyramid, leaving them as easy pickings for a good floor loader.

All of that being said, a line on the floor wouldn't really do much to hinder that, I think. All it does is make it easier to tell when an ally or opponent is being protected by their pyramid, and increases the amount of protection a robot receives from the pyramid by a marginal amount, unless you're one of those teams that likes to live dangerously and play defense within an inch of a protected area...

...or defensive strategies based on the correct, to the letter interpretation of the rule.

Contact is contact. They don't count "touching air" for level incursion determination while climbing. Why would they count touching air for G30 penalties? You're protected if you are touching the PYRAMID.

"PYRAMID: the Red or Blue steel structure on which ROBOTS CLIMB for points."

Don't see "the air or carpet surrounding said steel structure" anywhere in there. ;)

Travis, I think we all know that no matter how the rules are written, you'll be playing defense on whatever fine line there is to play on. :P


I am very sure that Dustin and his team read the rules to the letter. He is not proposing a rule change because he screwed up his own design. (edit: my apologies, this came out way harsher than I meant it to...)

Even if you do play to the edges of the tower, there is significantly less protection than you'd expect. Touching the corner of the tower, and then aiming while still clearly touching it, are both non-trivial. Lots of teams would drive up and touch or almost touch it, but then started to aim, drifted a half inch away, and then were completely vulnerable to defense. Not to mention referees seem to err on the side of no penalty when contact is ambiguous.

The pyramid is no 2012 key.

Chris, no harm no foul, I know what you mean.

At the end of the day, I was just making a suggestion, I still don't see the reasons to not increase/make more well defined the protected area around the pyramid. That being said, we now know what we have to do to use it's protection and we will move on.

I predict that 2013 may be the year of the soccer flag, foam finger, random noodle, and whatever other stuff people come up with to be 'contacting' the pyramid while shooting.

[Travis Hoffman]

Travis, I think we all know that no matter how the rules are written, you'll be playing defense on whatever fine line there is to play on. :P



Well duh! :)

We like playing offense too. We just don't like to be forced into playing one way or the other, especially if the coercion is implemented by namby-pamby after the fact rule changes that try to cram a certain style of gameplay down your throat.

[xraymypanda]

All of that being said, a line on the floor wouldn't really do much to hinder that, I think.

Don't forget that a team can place a single wheel into the lined zone and occupy the aisle diagonally to block a path to the feeder station that another robot won't fit through. A line greatly increases what I see as defensive opportunities by creating a limited path for a team to follow to get Frisbees.

[P.J.]

This is good to know for our antenna as well.

However, are you saying that if you do it while a robot is trying to climb, that its a foul?

I BELIEVE that this would not be a foul, as long as you don't contact the opponents robot. The contact with the pyramid would still be inconsequential as you would not have affected an opponents climb, just brushed the pyramid lightly. But I'm not 100% positive on that point.

[Alpha Beta]

This is good to know for our antenna as well.

However, are you saying that if you do it while a robot is trying to climb, that its a foul?

I don't believe it would be. Most of the climbs were 10 pointers and kind of clogged up the opportunities to slide through an opponent pyramid anyway.

What we noticed is that robots lining up for a shot while touching the pyramid were mugged by aggressive defense without a penalty being called in several instances. Those who were attempting to climb were given much greater protection. Hopefully in week 2 those calls will be more consistent.

We also noticed that if a defender played along the field wall and hit opponents into the pyramid as they went to the feeder station it was ruled a G-18 and the defender was given a technical. The loading robot appeared to have no responsibility in avoiding the pyramid in this situation. Defenders learned to play from the pyramid side and force the loading robots into the wall instead.

[gabrielau23]

Actually, I think that it was the human players that weren't making at least 66% of their shots that caused the rule change. :D

Same...I think that selfish players that hogged frisbees really would've become a problem

[waialua359]

I don't believe it would be. Most of the climbs were 10 pointers and kind of clogged up the opportunities to slide through an opponent pyramid anyway.

What we noticed is that robots lining up for a shot while touching the pyramid were mugged by aggressive defense without a penalty being called in several instances. Those who were attempting to climb were given much greater protection. Hopefully in week 2 those calls will be more consistent.

We also noticed that if a defender played along the field wall and hit opponents into the pyramid as they went to the feeder station it was ruled a G-18 and the defender was given a technical. The loading robot appeared to have no responsibility in avoiding the pyramid in this situation. Defenders learned to play from the pyramid side and force the loading robots into the wall instead.
Interesting and informative. I wonder why teams who line up to shoot while touching their pyramid aren't getting the calls from defenders that touch you.
If that's the case, how could you ever get a clear shot?
Sounds like missed calls and as you mentioned, hope those calls become more consistent.

[ttldomination]

If that's the case, how could you ever get a clear shot?

The scenario described are not so blatant.

From what I saw were the following;

Say team XXXX tried to line up at the back of the pyramid using uprights or something, then defenders usually left these robots alone. I never saw an instance of contact in this scenario, but I'm sure that had it occurred, it would've been called without hesitation.

Say team XXXX is trying to line up in the corner or even in the front of the pyramid (at this position, taller robots can really get in your game), then there is guarantee of a call. I suppose there's a little room to tussle but when illegal contact is made, it wasn't called very often, if at all.

- Sunny G.

[Alpha Beta]

Interesting and informative. I wonder why teams who line up to shoot while touching their pyramid aren't getting the calls from defenders that touch you.
If that's the case, how could you ever get a clear shot?
Sounds like missed calls and as you mentioned, hope those calls become more consistent.

I wonder if it is just bad angles by the referee's. When you line up on the corner of the pyramid only the very bottom of the bumper is making contact due to the angle of the legs. The higher points of the robot have quite a bit of space. Very difficult to make the call in some cases. (Although the instance I'm thinking of involved mecanums and the shooting robot always strafed until they rocked against that pyramid leg and then aimed to shoot. :rolleyes: )

On a separate note... We saw 60" defenders become effective at blocking full court shooters, but we didn't see many attempt to block pyramid shooters. If the refs continue to have difficulty telling when someone is touching the pyramid we might see the defense become more bold.

*Interesting clip here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spyRub7z1Bw

*We had a bad battery in this match so you will see us escaping the defensive pressure in low gear instead of our normal zippy selves.

[Kevin Sevcik]

*Interesting clip here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spyRub7z1BwDo you know if 2848 got called for a foul when 16 shoved them into the pyramid? By rule they shouldn't have since you can't be forced into taking a foul for anything except a G30. I'm just curious how the refs at Hub City called that.

[hrench]

I haven't had time to read this whole string, but I'll say that I learned that even teams that say they can climb for 30 (or 50) didn't at the Hub City and shooting frisbees four at a time is the best skill.

But like others here have said, even rookie teams were competitive and a ten-point hang is completely worth it.

Many videos of Hub City (for team 1108) at my youtube site.
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/user/hrench"]

[PVCpirate]

Do you know if 2848 got called for a foul when 16 shoved them into the pyramid? By rule they shouldn't have since you can't be forced into taking a foul for anything except a G30. I'm just curious how the refs at Hub City called that.

That was a huge hit if I've ever seen one. If you look at the picture they show a little later, 16's bumper comes up and hits them inside their frame perimeter. Nothing against 16 but if I was a ref and saw that I feel like I would call something.

[SoccerTaco]

Say team XXXX tried to line up at the back of the pyramid using uprights or something, then defenders usually left these robots alone. I never saw an instance of contact in this scenario, but I'm sure that had it occurred, it would've been called without hesitation.
- Sunny G.

Sunny - that happened in our match with you! :)
It was round 84 of the qualifications (great match, btw), and it was somewhere around the 1:30 mark. We were lined up against the back of the pyramid shooting when one of your alliance partners came up and gave us a nice firm tap in our rear end. I thought it was crystal clear that it was a foul - not sure how they missed it. If you have video of that match, check it out and see if you agree. We put up 54 points that round on 15-15 shooting, so we were majorly psyched in spite of the loss.

It was a great tournament for you guys - congrats on achieving the #1 rank and best of luck at Peachtree. I hope you guys make it to St Louis.

[jspatz1]

That was a huge hit if I've ever seen one. If you look at the picture they show a little later, 16's bumper comes up and hits them inside their frame perimeter. Nothing against 16 but if I was a ref and saw that I feel like I would call something.

There is no foul rule that applies to this situation.

[smistthegreat]

There is no foul rule that applies to this situation.

3.2.6.2 G29
Deliberate or damaging contact with an opponent ROBOT on or inside its FRAME PERIMETER is not allowed.

G29 does apply, depending on the severity of the contact.

Edit: The blue box appears to limit the impact of this rule to contact by appendages. Contact by bumpers may be a good candidate for a Q&A question.

[notmattlythgoe]

There is no foul rule that applies to this situation.

G29
Deliberate or damaging contact with an opponent ROBOT on or inside its FRAME PERIMETER is not allowed.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL


High speed accidental collisions may occur during the MATCH and are expected. ROBOTS extend elements outside of the FRAME PERIMETER at their own risk; no penalties will be assigned for contact between two such extended elements.

A ROBOT with an element outside its FRAME PERIMETER may be penalized under this rule if it appears they are using that element to purposefully contact another ROBOT inside its FRAME PERIMETER. Regardless of intent, a ROBOT with an element outside its FRAME PERIMETER that causes damage to another ROBOT inside of its FRAME PERIMETER will be penalized.

You sure?

[jspatz1]

3.2.6.2 G29
Deliberate or damaging contact with an opponent ROBOT on or inside its FRAME PERIMETER is not allowed.

G29 does apply, depending on the severity of the contact.

My comment was not that G29 did not exist, only that it did not apply to this situation. A robot tipped while being pushed and their bumpers overlapped momentarily. Hardly deliberate, damaging contact.

[jspatz1]

You sure?

Read your own quote:
High speed accidental collisions may occur during the MATCH and are expected. ROBOTS extend elements outside of the FRAME PERIMETER at their own risk; no penalties will be assigned for contact between two such extended elements.

16 had no such extended element. Their bumpers overlapped. It happens.

[notmattlythgoe]

Read your own quote:
High speed accidental collisions may occur during the MATCH and are expected. ROBOTS extend elements outside of the FRAME PERIMETER at their own risk; no penalties will be assigned for contact between two such extended elements.

16 had no such extended element. Their bumpers overlapped. It happens.

That part of the quote had nothing to do with this incident, the rule just goes on to explain that if you extend something out there is no penalty for hitting it.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Read your own quote:
High speed accidental collisions may occur during the MATCH and are expected. ROBOTS extend elements outside of the FRAME PERIMETER at their own risk; no penalties will be assigned for contact between two such extended elements.

16 had no such extended element. Their bumpers overlapped. It happens.I know it's hard to tell from a still, but it sure looks like 16's upper frame is hitting the vertical that 2848's shooter is mounted to. Which is well inside the frame perimeter.

At any rate, I think the primary issue is that your initial post seemed dismissive of the whole category of G29 fouls. Since you acknowledge that they do exist, the issue boils down to whether athe few stills and video we have show some evidence of deliberate and damaging contact. I think we can file this under "Judgement Calls" and everybody can move on.

[jspatz1]

I know it's hard to tell from a still, but it sure looks like 16's upper frame is hitting the vertical that 2848's shooter is mounted to. Which is well inside the frame perimeter.

The rule itself acknowledges that this type of contact may occur and is not a foul. The purpose of G29 is to make clear that the element must be purposeful and the damaging contact deliberate in order for there to be a foul. I do not believe I "dismissed a whole catagory of fouls." Since I wtnessed this contact myself, I was offering my opinion that it did not violate any foul rule.

[notmattlythgoe]

The rule itself acknowledges that this type of contact may occur and is not a foul. The purpose of G29 is to make clear that the element must be purposeful and the damaging contact deliberate in order for there to be a foul. I do not believe I "dismissed a whole catagory of fouls." Since I wtnessed this contact myself, I was offering my opinion that it did not violate any foul rule.

"There is no foul rule that applies to this situation."

I'm sorry, but that right there dismisses the fact that any rule applies to what happened. Rule G29 specifically applies to what happened, was it violated is a completely different question.

[toddhans]

Watching on television, it seemed a way to eliminate the defensive bots would be to have, as we used to say in Minnesota hockey terms, a Derek Boogaard. An enforcer (a.k.a. thug) to push those guys out of way as well as score a quick 10 points hanging at the end seemed to be a good protection for two other shooting robots. This way, they could continue to pump in the shots until the end and still have the enforcer score a quick ten at the end. Of course, this strategy only works if you have a defensive bot against you and a driver who understands the rules for contact. If it is all offense or if there are climbers involved, the best that bot could do would be to push around any shooters and try to avoid the penalties until the last 15 to 30 seconds. That could still be a bit of a neutralizer even if they are short and could not block any shots.

As for being an enforcer robot as a rookie team, there is nothing wrong with that. It brought us all the way to the Archimedes finals in St. Louis during our rookie season of 2011!

Todd Hanselman, Mentor
Chaotech 3747, Mankato, MN
Winners of 2011 Lake Superior Regional, 2012 10,000 Lakes Regional
Runners Up 2011 Archimedes Division, 2012 MN State High School League Robotics Championship

[Siri]

The rule itself acknowledges that this type of contact may occur and is not a foul. The purpose of G29 is to make clear that the element must be purposeful and the damaging contact deliberate in order for there to be a foul. I do not believe I "dismissed a whole catagory of fouls." Since I wtnessed this contact myself, I was offering my opinion that it did not violate any foul rule.I have no knowledge of this interaction, but I have put up a Q&A question regarding inside-frame-perimeter contact from things other than "extended elements" for future clarification. It is quite confusing in fact, because G29 as written says the exact opposite of the purpose you ascribe (which I also think is the true intent):

<G29> Deliberate or damaging contact with an opponent ROBOT on or inside its FRAME PERIMETER is not allowed. [emphasis mine]

It actually says the contact (without referring the an "element" until the unofficial Blue Box, and even then not exclusively) does not need to be deliberate. It can be either deliberate or damaging, and needn't be both.

I suspect the Q&A will get a RAO (Reasonably Astute Observer) and/or a "we cannot comment on specific situations", but I figured it was worth a shot.

[Kevin Sevcik]

The rule itself acknowledges that this type of contact may occur and is not a foul. The purpose of G29 is to make clear that the element must be purposeful and the damaging contact deliberate in order for there to be a foul. I do not believe I "dismissed a whole catagory of fouls." Since I wtnessed this contact myself, I was offering my opinion that it did not violate any foul rule."There is no foul rule that applies to this situation."

I'm sorry, but that right there dismisses the fact that any rule applies to what happened. Rule G29 specifically applies to what happened, was it violated is a completely different question.What he said. Please consider communicating some of your internal reasoning next time. We are not mind readers, so it's extremely easy to take single sentence answers the wrong way.

[jspatz1]

I'm sorry, but that right there dismisses the fact that any rule applies to what happened. Rule G29 specifically applies to what happened, was it violated is a completely different question.

It stated my opinion that no foul rule applied here. It does not "dismiss" any rule.

G29 refers specifically to robot elements outside the frame perimeter which are purposefully used to cause damage to another robot. That rule does not apply here, if for no other reason than because 16 had no such element. Two robots came in contact while pushing when one of them tipped. If you would like for that to be called as a technical foul in your match, you may want to be careful what you wish for.

[ttldomination]

Sunny - that happened in our match with you! :)
It was round 84 of the qualifications (great match, btw), and it was somewhere around the 1:30 mark. We were lined up against the back of the pyramid shooting when one of your alliance partners came up and gave us a nice firm tap in our rear end. I thought it was crystal clear that it was a foul - not sure how they missed it. If you have video of that match, check it out and see if you agree. We put up 54 points that round on 15-15 shooting, so we were majorly psyched in spite of the loss.

We have footage of the match (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iowFaQ-T4Hk&list=PLNFpYq5PSoA9ywD2V1nY2OnGABzIyCjUT&index=8), but it focuses most on our machine.

It sucks that you guys didn't get that call. That was the hardest match all event.

- Sunny G.

[notmattlythgoe]

It stated my opinion that no foul rule applied here. It does not "dismiss" any rule.

G29 refers specifically to robot elements outside the frame perimeter which are purposefully used to cause damage to another robot. That rule does not apply here, if for no other reason than because 16 had no such element. Two robots came in contact while pushing when one of them tipped. If you would like for that to be called as a technical foul in your match, you may want to be careful what you wish for.

No, it doesn't. I refers to any contact inside of a robot perimeter. It then goes on to warn that when you have something that extends out you run the risk of it getting damaged because they rule does not cover extended pieces.

[jspatz1]

Please consider communicating some of your internal reasoning next time. We are not mind readers, so it's extremely easy to take single sentence answers the wrong way.

Gotcha. Typing is work. I promise to say no more than I actually mean, if you promise to infer no more that I actually say.

[jspatz1]

No, it doesn't. I refers to any contact inside of a robot perimeter. It then goes on to warn that when you have something that extends out you run the risk of it getting damaged because they rule does not cover extended pieces.

It is silly to debate the content of something that is in writing. The rule and its blue box explanation speak for themselves. I don't think the rule applied to this situation, but that is just my opinion, which is all it ever was.

[PVCpirate]

Well, that escalated quickly! I was just trying to express how the situation looked to me, not really implying that a foul should have been called. I suppose that wasn't the best choice of words when its still week 1.

[gary325]

We(1559) got comfortable because we had almost zero attempts to block our climbing. Going forward, we'll just raise our climbing hook as soon as we get under the pyramid and then we can't be pushed out again.

If you had a flexible tab that would have hit the pyramid as 48 was pushing you out, 48 would incur a foul! Small price to pay for a 30 pt climb. BUT...
With your hook up and then getting hit, that would a TF and a 30 pt climb
G30: Regardless of who initiates the contact, a ROBOT may not contact an opponent ROBOT contacting its PYRAMID or touching the carpet in its LOADING ZONE.
Violation: FOUL. If purposeful or consequential, TECHNICAL FOUL. If an opponent's CLIMB is affected, each affected opponent ROBOT will be awarded points for a successful Level 3 CLIMB.

[jspatz1]

<G29> Deliberate or damaging contact with an opponent ROBOT on or inside its FRAME PERIMETER is not allowed. [emphasis mine]

It actually says the contact (without referring the an "element" until the unofficial Blue Box, and even then not exclusively) does not need to be deliberate. It can be either deliberate or damaging, and needn't be both.

I suspect the Q&A will get a RAO (Reasonably Astute Observer) and/or a "we cannot comment on specific situations", but I figured it was worth a shot.

All correct. Although we should not dismiss what is in the blue box. It is intended to explain the rule's meaning and how it will be implemented. At any rate, it is all a moot point here, as this contact was neither deliberate nor damaging.

[Siri]

All correct. Although we should not dismiss what is in the blue box. It is intended to explain the rule's meaning and how it will be implemented.Agreed, that's why I've requested clarification as to intent wrt to the Box. Though I've learned not to expect too much clarity, I don't think it would be too much to ask for the GDC to give an up/down on whether G29 applies only or differently to incursion by extended elements versus the main robot. It's Q563 (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/563/is-the-intent-to-only-penalize-applicable-contact-of-an-extended-element-in-an-opponents-frame-perimeter-does-it-apply-equally-to-contact-by-an-opponents-main-robot-i-e-its-own-frame-perimeter-b) if anyone's interested.

[SoccerTaco]

We have footage of the match (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iowFaQ-T4Hk&list=PLNFpYq5PSoA9ywD2V1nY2OnGABzIyCjUT&index=8), but it focuses most on our machine.

It sucks that you guys didn't get that call. That was the hardest match all event.

- Sunny G.

Cannot see it from that angle. We were shooting not climbing, and still made the shots, so the hit was not "consequential" - I think that would make it the 3 pointer variety. It was enough of a hit to be very obvious to me, but we all miss things sometimes. It wouldn't have changed the outcome.

[ToddF]

Getting back to the topic of the thread...

lessons not already mentioned:
- The condition of the carpet under and around the pyramid is terrible. Other teams with pickup mechanisms take note. If they are based on scooping the disks with a dustpan type of scoop, like ours is, expect problems. We nearly destroyed our pickup arm by catching it on a taped carpet seam. See this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5NibZXmcaQ&list=UUv_9jINXLDwAMUA3l80nVjw&index=3#t=2m00s) at time 2:00. We attempted to avoid driving over the seams with the arm down, and paid for it when we forgot.

- We saw zero upside down disks on the field until the feeders began throwing the colored ones. We're glad we didn't spend time designing a disk flipper. We dedicated a camera to looking at the floor so we could avoid upside down frisbees. We will re-aim that camera to look into the robot to see if our hopper gets jammed.

- Even with disk pickup, unless defense is very heavy, running back to the feeder station for disks can be quicker than picking them up from the floor.

- Practice results in proficiency. I'm still in awe of how effective team 11's feeder was at loading their robot quickly. The technique he used and the skill he exhibited isn't something that just happens. It has to be learned and developed by practicing with field elements that match the real ones, not the facsimiles suggested in the team drawings.

- There is a reason why high school, college, and professional coaches sometimes scream at referees. Maybe if FIRST referees got chewed out when they blow calls, it might happen less often. These games are way too competitive, and way too much blood, sweat, and tears are invested by teams for us to just shrug away referee mistakes that change the outcome of matches. In all honesty, one lesson that could be learned from week one matches is that a strategy of risking G30 penalty points while playing defense pays off big time. By not enforcing the rules, FIRST is very effectively teaching high school students that it is better to break the rules than to be GP. All the pep talks by mentors about being Gracious Professionals, and how cheaters don't prosper mean nothing when FIRST allows rule breakers to win matches with no prospect for even appealing an obvious missed call. (OK, maybe this lesson has already been beat to death, but I just couldn't resist.)

[Alex Cormier]

Getting back to the topic of the thread...

lessons not already mentioned:...

- Even with disk pickup, unless defense is very heavy, running back to the feeder station for disks can be quicker than picking them up from the floor.
...)


I do not understand this comment, please explain more.

[Jeffy]

I do not understand this comment, please explain more.

What I observed in both our practice, and watching a few webcasts:
-Disks are often scattered
-Many robots don't have mechanisms that just suck in the frisbees at the speed of light and index them perfectly without a little help from the driver.

The multiple changes of direction required and subsequent acceleration from near stop to pick up Frisbees from the floor in multiple locations can often lead to a slower time compared to the straight and practiced path that going to the feeder station entails.

[jeleser]

- Practice results in proficiency. I'm still in awe of how effective team 11's feeder was at loading their robot quickly. The technique he used and the skill he exhibited isn't something that just happens. It has to be learned and developed by practicing with field elements that match the real ones, not the facsimiles suggested in the team drawings.

Could you please specify? I saw plenty of human players stacking four frisbees at a time on top of the feeder slots for easy access, but was there more to the way 11's human player fed frisbees?

[Dr. Shocker]

Jeffy, I think the point that Cormier was trying to make was that, at least at FLR, defense was VERY heavy.

[Anupam Goli]

Could you please specify? I saw plenty of human players stacking four frisbees at a time on top of the feeder slots for easy access, but was there more to the way 11's human player fed frisbees?

11's feeder was able to get all 4 discs in within a matter of about 2 seconds. Their process was very streamlined. I'd like to say our feeder was the exact same way, able to get all 4 discs in within 2 seconds, except 11's faster drivetrain and shooter enabled them to take advantage of a fast feeder and make 4 runs. It's all about technique. Our human player has been practicing loading our robot since Bag day and has developed a stacking technique to make it work quickly.

[pfreivald]

Jeffy, I think the point that Cormier was trying to make was that, at least at FLR, defense was VERY heavy.

I expected a shift to heavy defense, especially on Saturday morning when teams who just couldn't get their offensive capabilities together decided to switch tactics in the hopes of being a second-round pick. I wasn't disappointed--in spades!

...until I was disappointed by just how darned good 1126 suddenly was on defense!

[Koko Ed]

I expected a shift to heavy defense, especially on Saturday morning when teams who just couldn't get their offensive capabilities together decided to switch tactics in the hopes of being a second-round pick. I wasn't disappointed--in spades!

...until I was disappointed by just how darned good 1126 suddenly was on defense!

I seen them do this before at IRI in 2008.

[Ankit S.]

- There is a reason why high school, college, and professional coaches sometimes scream at referees. Maybe if FIRST referees got chewed out when they blow calls, it might happen less often.

While I understand what you are saying, FIRST refs are volunteers. High school, college, professional, and sometimes even little league sports refs are paid. Screaming at the refs is definitely not how we want to tackle the problem of inconsistent calls.

We should be thanking the refs for volunteering, not shouting at them for missing a call.

[scaryone]

Picking up frisbees was so unimportant, we removed our pickup mechanism. Which worked very well.

[mrnoble]

- There is a reason why high school, college, and professional coaches sometimes scream at referees. Maybe if FIRST referees got chewed out when they blow calls, it might happen less often. These games are way too competitive...
By not enforcing the rules, FIRST is very effectively teaching high school students that it is better to break the rules than to be GP. All the pep talks by mentors about being Gracious Professionals, and how cheaters don't prosper mean nothing when FIRST allows rule breakers to win matches with no prospect for even appealing an obvious missed call.

If your students are learning that:
a) yelling at refs will get them a win,
b) it is better to risk penalties and break the rules,
c) the problem with cheating is that it leads to losing, and
d) the problem with c) is that it's incorrect,
then we aren't playing the same game. Hope I'm misinterpreting. Play hard, but always play fair, because it isn't ever about the win.

[Anupam Goli]

While I understand what you are saying, FIRST refs are volunteers. High school, college, professional, and sometimes even little league sports refs are paid. Screaming at the refs is definitely not how we want to tackle the problem of inconsistent calls.

We should be thanking the refs for volunteering, not shouting at them for missing a call.

I know I'm beating a dead horse at this point, and i know they are volunteers, but to be a referee, it's an arduous process. You have to take a referee's test, get trained by FIRST, and have to have experience. Referees are volunteers, but because of the rigors of getting that position, I expect them to fully implement the rules. I will be angry when 2 elimination matches are blown by bad ref calls*. I expect these volunteers to be prepared fully to referee and call every foul consistently.

Trust me, i know what it's like to be a referee. While not on the same scale, i reffed for FTC local qualifiers. it's a tough job, but I spent at least 6 hours preparing for the job and made sure to call everything that I could possibly see, so the competition was fair. I expect every referee to be trained properly and well versed in the rules and any exceptions made in the Q&A.

*Our team could've done better in the match, and when I look back on it, that's certainly the case, but it still stands that G30 was not called once when it was infracted upon at least 3 times in one match, a climb that was legal was ruled illegal, and another climb that was illegal was ruled legal.

[FIRST_Parent]

What I learned from week-1 is that once again my son has been inspired to the level that he came home after the BAE Systems Granite State FIRST Robotics Regional Competition with the biggest smile I have seen on his face for a long long time. I am truly grateful for that.

[Sam_Mills]

Getting back to the topic of the thread...

- Practice results in proficiency. I'm still in awe of how effective team 11's feeder was at loading their robot quickly. The technique he used and the skill he exhibited isn't something that just happens. It has to be learned and developed by practicing with field elements that match the real ones, not the facsimiles suggested in the team drawings.

Our human player practiced for hours and hours on the human feed station from the team drawings. Part of what made him so lethal is that he trained on the plywood one where he had no sight. Palmetto was the first time he got to use a real field, and it was like taking off a blindfold for him.

[ToddF]

I do not understand this comment, please explain more.

Where the carpet is smooth, the disks are optimally placed, and the driver and operator make no mistakes, picking up from the floor can be very quick. If any of these factors are missing, which is often, the number of hoppers of disks shot in a match drops by about one. For us, if everything went perfectly, we could pickup and shoot 3 hoppers worth. If there were problems, that dropped to 2 or 1 hopper.

When we tried going to the feeder station, even with light defense, we could load 2-3 hoppers. Again, drive team mistakes, or heavy defense could drop that number by 1 or 2.

One factor we did not expect was that at least one defender seemed to be targeting our arm for damage. They would back off when it was up, but as soon as it would come down, the defender seemed like they were trying to hit the arm. We expected some amount of consequential damage, but did not prepare enough spares for that kind of defense, even though the possibility was certainly foreseeable.

Since floor pickup and feeder loading seemed to be roughly equal in speed, (at least with our arm) we made the strategic decision to reduce the risk of damage to our arm by saving it for autonomous scoring. We would also use it if heavily defended when running back and forth to the feeder station.

The equation changes a bit if you have a very fast floor pickup mechanism, and/or have had lots of time to practice with it. That may shift the balance towards floor pickup.

[Siri]

Our human player practiced for hours and hours on the human feed station from the team drawings. Part of what made him so lethal is that he trained on the plywood one where he had no sight. Palmetto was the first time he got to use a real field, and it was like taking off a blindfold for him.Was anyone else (at other events) told that you cannot stack discs on the feeder station slides or low goal? Our Head Ref told us specifically not to, but it seems a lot if other events, and even some teams at our event, weren't. (I never saw any penalties called for it, and there's no direct rule.) It didn't overly bother me as we couldn't have taken full advantage of it this time, but Week 3 we should be able to. I hope they clear that up.


As a note, the 'arduousness' to become a ref this year is significantly down from 2012 (no training, just test and maybe an optional telecon). I point this out only because it's partly due to the difficulty of recruiting referees. Some events are short several refs mere weeks before game time. Occasionally refs are literally at their first competition. The process can only be as hard as the quota accepts. It's sometimes rough on teams, and I've been on the bad side of poor calls (I've also been on the bad side of yelled-at). There are some serious Week 1 problems this year. But yelling at refs is a good way to not have any left. Suggestion - if you want refs with more experience, volunteer!

[Andrew Lawrence]

Our human player practiced for hours and hours on the human feed station from the team drawings. Part of what made him so lethal is that he trained on the plywood one where he had no sight. Palmetto was the first time he got to use a real field, and it was like taking off a blindfold for him.

Smills, do you have any match footage of your human player loading your robot? I'm sure we can all learn from his style.

[EricDrost]

Smills, do you have any match footage of your human player loading your robot? I'm sure we can all learn from his style.

We can't disclose all of our secrets :p

[thefro526]

Was anyone else (at other events) told that you cannot stack discs on the feeder station slides or low goal? Our Head Ref told us specifically not to, but it seems a lot if other events, and even some teams at our event, weren't. (I never saw any penalties called for it, and there's no direct rule.) It didn't overly bother me as we couldn't have taken full advantage of it this time, but Week 3 we should be able to. I hope they clear that up.



Siri,

We had a long discussion about this at varying points on Friday night and Saturday morning. From what we could find, there is no rule that specifically disallows this, and the reason that we were given was that 'Stacking Discs could cause field damage'... Some point after that, there was mention of disc stacking being legal, or being clarified to be legal, but I don't remember if we were ever given a conclusive answer...

All of that being said, should you need to stack discs on top of either the low goal or the slot covers at your next event, I'd say to do it until you're told not to - at which point ask them to cite the rule that disallows it.

[pathew100]

One factor we did not expect was that at least one defender seemed to be targeting our arm for damage. They would back off when it was up, but as soon as it would come down, the defender seemed like they were trying to hit the arm. We expected some amount of consequential damage, but did not prepare enough spares for that kind of defense, even though the possibility was certainly foreseeable.

Blue Box, G29 "High speed accidental collisions may occur during the MATCH and are expected. ROBOTS extend elements outside of the FRAME PERIMETER at their own risk; no penalties will be assigned for contact between two such extended elements."

[Anupam Goli]

Blue Box, G29 "High speed accidental collisions may occur during the MATCH and are expected. ROBOTS extend elements outside of the FRAME PERIMETER at their own risk; no penalties will be assigned for contact between two such extended elements."

I don't think Todd was trying to say that any rules were violated, just surprised at the amount of defense that was played against a floor pickup robot when the pickup mechanism is down. We designed a floor intake expecting to have some defense played against it. Our current iteration of it looks overkill, but we still doubt its rigidity against heavy defense.

[Greg Needel]

Do you know if 2848 got called for a foul when 16 shoved them into the pyramid? By rule they shouldn't have since you can't be forced into taking a foul for anything except a G30. I'm just curious how the refs at Hub City called that.

There were no fouls in that match at all. We got exactly what we expected in the match and even confirmed with the ref's before that being shoved into the pyramid by another team would not be our penalty.

As for 16 getting a penalty, they didn't and thats fine. They hit us, we hit them, it happens. Build your robots to take a hit and it doesn't matter.


We went into the match knowing full well we were going to loose, we just wanted to show other teams that it was possible to block 1986. As good as their shooter is from under the pyramid, their accuracy drops from anywhere else on the field. ( just like any other team which calibrates for a specific shot)

As good as 1986 is, I think they will not have such an easy run in Oklahoma, as teams learn how to defend elite robots, such as installing blockers at 60" to force them to leave the spot under the pyramid and shoot on the fly. The biggest advantage they have is that they are already performing at a high level with things like a 7 disk auto (which is awesome), but by week 4 others will have had the opportunity to study the game and mod their robots to adapt.



*edited to better reflect my options in a way that does not put down 1986. They are a great team with a great robot, and it was not my intent to take anything away from the team and their accomplishments. I was just pointing out, from a lessons learned standpoint that even the best of teams will have to deal with teams that learn more about how to play the game as the weeks roll on.

[ToddF]

Just so I'm clear, I am not advocating that yelling at referees is in any way acceptable at a FIRST event. It goes against the principles of being a GP, and is against the rules, as well.

G18: All Teams must be civil towards other Teams, competition personnel, and event attendees.

Unfortunately, the process that FIRST has established to protest incorrect match outcomes, is fatally flawed. It should not be acceptable that the outcome of a properly presented protest to a documentably game changing bad call should be that nothing is done because, "I didn't see that." or "It's too late. The field has already been reset."

We need a better process by which we can all stay civil, but game changing mistakes can be corrected. We all understand that referees can and do make mistakes. Those mistakes can and should be corrected so that those who play by the rules don't lose to those that break them, by accident or otherwise.

[Alpha Beta]

We went into the match knowing full well we were going to loose, we just wanted to show other teams that it was possible to block 1986. As good as their shooter is from under the pyramid, their accuracy drops to less than 50% from anywhere else on the field. ( I think this is mostly due to driver practice and not robot functionality)

As good as 1986 is, I think they will not have such an easy run of it in Oklahoma, as teams are going to install blockers at 60" to force them to leave their perch under the pyramid and shoot on the fly. The biggest advantage they have is the 7 disk auto (which is awesome), but by week 4 others will have it also (through programming changes or robot mods)

We were surprised too that no one picked up on your blocking idea and used it on us in eliminations. Your team did an excellent job of strategizing ways to keep the score down. Teams that emphasize the climbing aspects of the game should be very interested in lowering the teleop shooting so their points matter more.

Saw another interesting strategy where the defensive bot sat in the opponents protected feeding zone, and the loading bot couldn't get to the zone to draw the penalty, much less load discs.

We definitely had a sweet spot to shoot from, although by the time Oklahoma rolls around we should have about 11 other equally sweet spots to pull up to. We have all of the KC regional to practice with in week 3 before heading to Oklahoma in week 5.

Just noticed 2848 is going to be in Oklahoma too. Our scores were higher playing together than playing against each other. Hope to see you on our side next time we meet. :)