View Full Version : 2013 Greater Toronto East Regional
2185Bilal
05-03-2013, 20:30
So with two days left till GTR East, who is coming out to Oshawa.
I would you say Team 2185 The Ramazoidz will be attending this regional, for the second time in a row
There are 43 teams attending, and it will be fun to see what is the outcome. We will be able to see the defending regional champions (1114, 2056, 1219)
So GOOD LUCK and we'll see you at the competition
Looking forward to my first time volunteering at a regional, doing field reset.
Also, 1219 isn't competing this year.
Feroz1325
05-03-2013, 21:30
Team 1325 is excited to be returning to GTR East with our robot "Schmetterling".
Good luck to all teams attending, it looks like its gonna be a great regional!
Gregor, I did field resent at Waterloo last year, its a blast...wear comfortable shoes :] .
2185Bilal
05-03-2013, 21:46
Also, 1219 isn't competing this year.
on thebluealliance database it says they are going:
http://www.thebluealliance.com/event/2013onto
I'm very excited to be at my first Ontario event! Heading out tomorrow.
LeelandS
05-03-2013, 22:50
on thebluealliance database it says they are going:
http://www.thebluealliance.com/event/2013onto
Although an awesome resource, The Blue Alliance has it's flaws.
www.frclinks.frclinks.com/t/1219 (frclinks.frclinks.com/t/1219)
GCentola
05-03-2013, 23:15
Leeland, you posted in the thread. That means you are going to try and make it to GTR, right?
Vince lau
05-03-2013, 23:53
I'm very excited to be at my first Ontario event! Heading out tomorrow.
Libby will be in Ontario :yikes:
DevDebie2200
06-03-2013, 23:11
First time volunteering at this event! I'm very excited to see the teams at this event after seeing the teams do the early load in tonight. I will be one of the robot inspectors this time around
I'll be out there with Team 2013!
The webcast is up at www.watchfirstnow.com/live.php#ONTO
Justin Montois
07-03-2013, 11:25
I can't wait to get up there on Saturday! It's going to be a great event!
216Robochick288
07-03-2013, 11:39
I have been seeing matches.
Peyton Yeung
07-03-2013, 13:37
107 points by ones self is pretty good (2056)
2056 seems to be sporting a very effective floor pickup....
JohnSchneider
07-03-2013, 13:47
Oh I see what they did. Sneaky Canadians building complementary robots ;)
2056 cleaning the carpet right now...
Jonathan K.
07-03-2013, 13:56
2056 sure makes the field look a lot prettier with a lack of white discs on the field.
Joon Park
07-03-2013, 16:19
I can't believe I missed OP on the field! I will be watching the webcast closely, especially for Simbotics and OP even though I can't make it up there.
DevDebie2200
07-03-2013, 20:44
What an awesome first/practice day!
Besides a few final touches on a couple of robots prior to fully completing inspection, everyone is ready to rumble tomorrow.
Alpha Beta
07-03-2013, 23:38
Match schedule is up. http://www2.usfirst.org/2013comp/events/ONTO/ScheduleQual.html
2056 and 1114 play together in match #59 Saturday morning. They never play against each other in qualifications.
PayneTrain
07-03-2013, 23:46
2056 and 1114 play together in match #59 Saturday morning. They never play against each other in qualifications.
Conspiracy?! (kidding)
Good luck to all teams tomorrow! Remember to raise praise, not throw down well... not praise.
GTRE 2012 was not a fun thread.
Yipyapper
08-03-2013, 00:04
Doesn't help when 5 of your matches are against either 2056 or 1114. Makes matters even worse when you aren't playing with them in a single match.
Wow -- interesting cadence on the scheduling! 1114 is up at match 33, and then again at 35! But they keep the same bumper color. :)
Jonathan Norris
08-03-2013, 00:16
2056 and 1114 play together in match #59 Saturday morning. They never play against each other in qualifications.
Thats too bad, I always love watching them go at each other, they are usually some of my favorite matches of the year.
2056 and 1114 play together in match #59 Saturday morning. They never play against each other in qualifications.
Haha maybe not at this regional but I am sure they will eventually and it should be pretty epic. I remember 2 years ago at waterloo they played each other and it was definetly something spectacular. What was more amazing tho was during the last practice match the day before on the thursday they nearly filled all of their rungs with tubes.
Andrew Lawrence
08-03-2013, 00:28
Doesn't help when 5 of your matches are against either 2056 or 1114. Makes matters even worse when you aren't playing with them in a single match.
Show them how much they'd rather be with you in elims than against you. ;)
Akash Rastogi
08-03-2013, 00:32
Doesn't help when 5 of your matches are against either 2056 or 1114. Makes matters even worse when you aren't playing with them in a single match.
Heh, reminds me of 2007 when the match generator was faulty.
Check out how many times we played 25 in qualifications at NJ that year...
http://www.thebluealliance.com/team/11/2007
waialua359
08-03-2013, 00:55
Heh, reminds me of 2007 when the match generator was faulty.
Check out how many times we played 25 in qualifications at NJ that year...
http://www.thebluealliance.com/team/11/2007
I remember that.
We played seven matches during qualifications.
4 against 341 and 3 against 375.
Heh, reminds me of 2007 when the match generator was faulty.
Check out how many times we played 25 in qualifications at NJ that year...
http://www.thebluealliance.com/team/11/2007
Wow..If that happened up here with 1114 and 2056, qualifications would get much more intense because people would be fighting that much harder for the number 1 spot.
JohnSchneider
08-03-2013, 00:59
All the Debbie downers here seem to be forgetting their worlds qualifications will drop down to the finalists after/if they win a regional.
AdamHeard
08-03-2013, 01:01
All the Debbie downers here seem to be forgetting their worlds qualifications will drop down to the finalists after/if they win a regional.
I don't think it works that way, I could be wrong though.
I thought only qualifications earned at an event THIS year are passed down.
JohnSchneider
08-03-2013, 01:07
I don't think it works that way, I could be wrong though.
I thought only qualifications earned at an event THIS year are passed down.
That's what I'm talking about. They seem to be talking about all Canadian regionals not just GTR-E. just reminding them that everything changes at their second event.
Undertones
08-03-2013, 02:18
1114 and 2056 as well as all the other teams that competed on Einstein last year were guaranteed a spot at Championships because of the interference.
I think that if 1114/2056 wins GTRE their spot would get passed on because of the new "wild card" system.
DampRobot
08-03-2013, 02:27
Does anyone have photos/videos/info about 1114 or 2056's robot? I'm really interested in the strategic decisons that these strategy-centric teams made this year.
nikeairmancurry
08-03-2013, 03:33
1114 and 2056 as well as all the other teams that competed on Einstein last year were guaranteed a spot at Championships because of the interference.
I think that if 1114/2056 wins GTRE their spot would get passed on because of the new "wild card" system.
Not in this case. Please note: Championship status based on pre-qualification (Original and Sustaining Teams, Hall of Fame Teams, 2012 FIRST Championship Winners and Einstein Teams) has no effect on this system. Only performance during the 2013 season is considered.
1114 is in the first match of the day today! Tune in at www.watchfirstnow.com/gtr
Is 188 not competing? I see them in the list of teams, but they're nowhere in the match schedule.
Is 188 not competing? I see them in the list of teams, but they're nowhere in the match schedule.
188 is no longer a team.
Is 188 not competing? I see them in the list of teams, but they're nowhere in the match schedule.
Unfortunately, they were one of the teams that had to drop this year due to the Ontario teacher union labour dispute. Hopefully they will be back next year!
Oh, that's disappointing. I was hoping to see them compete. :(
Andrew Lawrence
08-03-2013, 10:20
Wow. 133 points by 2056 and alliance. Looks like for a floor-load-only robot, they're really rocking the competition.
thefro526
08-03-2013, 10:24
Wow. 133 points by 2056 and alliance. Looks like for a floor-load-only robot, they're really rocking the competition.
Not that I would expect anything less from 2056, but their execution is simply amazing. They've clearly been practicing their butts off with that machine. Watching their last match, it was almost like the robot said this: 'No discs on the floor? Oh look at this convenient pile of discs our HP left for us, brb for more scoring'.
Awesome.
Was watching 1114 and 2056. In 1114's first match, they were at best ~24 seconds between scorings. 2056 was about 22 seconds between unloadings. Seemed to be more defense played on 1114's match though and their loader wasn't perfect, so maybe they can get that down to 20 seconds per 4 discs.
engunneer
08-03-2013, 10:31
2056 also has an impressive last-second hang.
Does anyone have video recorded or pictures of 1114 and 2056 for those that have the webcast blocked for them?
JamesBrown
08-03-2013, 10:38
Was watching 1114 and 2056. In 1114's first match, they were at best ~24 seconds between scorings. 2056 was about 22 seconds between unloadings. Seemed to be more defense played on 1114's match though and their loader wasn't perfect, so maybe they can get that down to 20 seconds per 4 discs.
2056 showed in their second match how quickly they can score. 1114 seems just good (Really says more about how high 1114 has set the standard for themselves) However I have a gut feeling that we are not seeing their full hand. I have a feeling 1114 wants to shoot full court, however without a top tier floor loading bot on their alliance many of those discs are wasted. They kind of remind me of 469 (I think) when they had the hang and redirect bot (2010? Im old and memory is the first thing to go.). They are just good enough to keep winning when not playing theirr strategy, but nearly unstoppable with the right partners.
I am basing this on watching exactly one match each for these robots, but I think that tomorrow when 1114 and 2056 play together you will see what 1114 was built for, I think that will be shooting an absurd number of discs full court then performing a 50 point hang/dump with 2056 cleaning up the floor (and probably setting the single robot scoring record).
Jonathan Norris
08-03-2013, 10:40
Does anyone have video recorded or pictures of 1114 and 2056 for those that have the webcast blocked for them?
The webcast is being live archived, you can see the matches here: http://www.watchfirstnow.com/archive.php?id=61352321
Natatatalies
08-03-2013, 10:41
Does anyone have video recorded or pictures of 1114 and 2056 for those that have the webcast blocked for them?
This is all I could manage. I hope it helps.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/09a2208c7a01d6f5ff208d7facadac21/tumblr_mjcm6jvyYQ1qh8yl4o1_500.jpg
I think we are seeing why 1114 and 2056 made their design choices. They are built to play together with complimentary capabilities.
engunneer
08-03-2013, 11:05
I think we are seeing why 1114 and 2056 made their design choices. They are built to play together with complimentary capabilities.
That's an interesting take on strategy for this year. Makes an alternative to the fraternal twin strategies. The "Sim"biosis strategy?
I think we are seeing why 1114 and 2056 made their design choices. They are built to play together with complimentary capabilities.
Qualifications match 59 will prove this, of true.
One clears the floor, one slot loads. One hangs from the lower bar, one climbs the corner. One does the center 7-disc auto, one shoots 3 from the wing.
One clears the floor, one slot loads. One hangs from the lower bar, one climbs the corner. One does the center 7-disc auto, one shoots 3 from the wing.
I agree with you there, and you're probably correct. It should be an interesting match. To bad there isn't a match pitting the two against each other.
Alpha Beta
08-03-2013, 11:44
One clears the floor, one slot loads. One hangs from the lower bar, one climbs the corner. One does the center 7-disc auto, one shoots 3 from the wing.
Interesting theory considering neither one has to qualify for champs this year, and have no guarantee of being placed in the same division. Odd coincidence though.
Jay O'Donnell
08-03-2013, 11:45
I noticed in match #1 that 1114's human player was having trouble feeding the robot due to Frisbees not entering the robot. Does anyone know if something is wrong with the slot or is it a design flaw? (or something else?)
Peyton Yeung
08-03-2013, 11:50
I noticed in match #1 that 1114's human player was having trouble feeding the robot due to Frisbees not entering the robot. Does anyone know if something is wrong with the slot or is it a design flaw? (or something else?)
I just saw the match before lunch and it would appear they have fixed that as they quickly loaded 4 in about 2-3 seconds.
Peyton
Jay O'Donnell
08-03-2013, 11:58
I just saw the match before lunch and it would appear they have fixed that as they quickly loaded 4 in about 2-3 seconds.
Peyton
Ok thanks for the update! Got to hand it to these teams that have robots this good in their first regional (coughcough 1114, 2056, 118 coughcough)
Interesting theory considering neither one has to qualify for champs this year, and have no guarantee of being placed in the same division. Odd coincidence though.
Because they do not need to qualify they do not need to design to win alone. I think they went all-in on an Einstein strategy. Looks like 1114 got the short end of the deal so far.
Because they do not need to qualify they do not need to design to win alone. I think they went all-in on an Einstein strategy. Looks like 1114 got the short end of the deal so far.
But they have no way of guaranteeing that they are in the same division. In fact in 75% of cases they are in different divisions. That's what makes collusion implausible.
Not saying that they have the guarantee, only that they designed for the opportunity. I suppose it is possible that 1114 completely missed the importance of floor loading, and decided to just forfeit any extra auton points. (:rolleyes: eye roll)
Jay O'Donnell
08-03-2013, 12:55
But they have no way of guaranteeing that they are in the same division. In fact in 75% of cases they are in different divisions. That's what makes collusion implausible.
Well the thing is they don't necessarily need to have 2056, just a robot with similar capabilities as them.
Well the thing is they don't necessarily need to have 2056, just a robot with similar capabilities as them.
Yes. But when was the last time 1114 built a robot that was designed in such a way that, in order to be effective, they require their alliance partner's to have other certain characteristics? Generally 1114 builds the robot that does everything, and then selects robots that complement them nicely. It almost seems like this year 1114 has put themselves into a situation where they're going to need their partner to fill the design gaps they weren't able to achieve, instead of the other way around.
Also, it says a lot about the consistency of 1114 as a team when we're sitting here wondering why they don't have a robot that can do everything after being amazed by the robots that can.
Jay O'Donnell
08-03-2013, 13:02
Yes. But when was the last time 1114 built a robot that was designed in such a way that, in order to be effective, they require their alliance partner's to have other certain characteristics? Generally 1114 builds the robot that does everything, and then selects robots that complement them nicely. It almost seems like this year 1114 has put themselves into a situation where they're going to need their partner to fill the design gaps they weren't able to achieve, instead of the other way around.
Also, it says a lot about the consistency of 1114 as a team when we're sitting here wondering why they don't have a robot that can do everything after being amazed by the robots that can.
This is true, they are still putting up insane points without 2056, so they are in good shape. I'll put it to you this way, most teams in FIRST would gladly take 1114's robot right now.
A high score of 182 was just put down by 2056, 4343 and 2852
http://www.watchfirstnow.com/archive.php?id=61365086
But they have no way of guaranteeing that they are in the same division. In fact in 75% of cases they are in different divisions. That's what makes collusion implausible.
"Collusion" is an inappropriate choice of word here and was not the gist of my comments. It is a bold strategy with risks and will be fasciniting to watch play out. They are hoping to meet opportunity with preparation, which is smart for anyone to do.
Paul Copioli
08-03-2013, 14:08
Guys,
I can guarantee that 1114 and 2056 did not make complimentary robots on purpose.
If I know the guys on 1114 (and I do ... very well), they did an analysis based on opportunity cost and did a value based analysis, including the probability of how many teams can pull off the 30 point hang.
What you are seeing is exactly what some of us expected. Early events will be dominated by auton + floor load, but that will change as the season progresses...at least that is the theory. Math supports this claim.
Paul
engunneer
08-03-2013, 14:13
A high score of 182 was just put down by 2056, 4343 and 2852
http://www.watchfirstnow.com/archive.php?id=61365086
That 182 included massive penalties.
Match 26, however... 143-25... 2056's alliance had 60 in Autonomous alone. I think we know who first seed will be. That's an impressive bit of robot.
Really enjoying the webcast and the music variety!
rick.oliver
08-03-2013, 16:13
Guys,
I can guarantee that 1114 and 2056 did not make complimentary robots on purpose.
If I know the guys on 1114 (and I do ... very well), they did an analysis based on opportunity cost and did a value based analysis, including the probability of how many teams can pull off the 30 point hang.
What you are seeing is exactly what some of us expected. Early events will be dominated by auton + floor load, but that will change as the season progresses...at least that is the theory. Math supports this claim.
Paul
I agree; happy accident. I don't know either team the way Paul knows them. I suspect that they both performed an analysis of the game and came to their conclusions. Both are very competitive ... again. Neither relies on an alliance partner to be effective; that is, either can play the game very effectively.
The floor loading advantage in auton (24 points) offsets the additional points for climbing to level 3.
I think 2056 evaluated the game very well and delivered an excellent machine which executes a very effective strategy. Well done 2056.
I agree; happy accident. I don't know either team the way Paul knows them. I suspect that they both performed an analysis of the game and came to their conclusions. Both are very competitive ... again. Neither relies on an alliance partner to be effective; that is, either can play the game very effectively.
The floor loading advantage in auton (24 points) offsets the additional points for climbing to level 3.
I think 2056 evaluated the game very well and delivered an excellent machine which executes a very effective strategy. Well done 2056.
I also think 1114 has executed a great strategy. This year may be one of the first years where there is a drastic difference in Regional level and Championship level strategies that drive robot design.
Don't get me wrong, 2056 has a great design and will be very successful this year; however, I think 1114 is built for a higher caliber of competition/alliance members. By Einstein, I suspect most teams will be shooting 85-90% if not higher. How many discs will really be available on the ground? Yes, auto floor pickup is great and is needed on an alliance, but not every robot needs that capability.
The ability to climb to 30, and what appears to be a setup for the 20point dump, will be much more valuable in the end. Not to mention they are a corner climber so this doesn't really impose any limitations on what other 30pt climber is on their alliance.
Yes, 2056 will steal the regional competitions. But I suspect 1114 to be a much more valuable asset to an alliance on Einstein.
Just my thoughts.
PayneTrain
08-03-2013, 16:28
This slow-motion intro... Canada is rubbing their match cycle efficiency in our faces :(
Good job, regional staff and teams!
Purely based on my observations, top 4 robots are 2056, 1114, 1241, and 4343, in that order.
2056 has a 7 disk auto, and only floor loading.
1114 has only human loading, and a fast 30 point climb, although inconsistant so far.
1241 has a wicked fast shooter, and fast cycle times, although they were having drivetrain issues early on.
4343 is a consistant 18 point auto, 3-4 cycle shooter, and 10 point hanger. Nothing fast, but super consistant.
rick.oliver
08-03-2013, 19:21
... Yes, 2056 will steal the regional competitions. But I suspect 1114 to be a much more valuable asset to an alliance on Einstein. ...
Agree both are excellent executions of excellent strategies. I expect that 2056 will not only dominate the Regional fields, they will also dominate their Division at the Championship event.
Unless of course there is a machine that delivers a seven disc autonomous, a fast 30 point climb with a 20 point dump and four or five 12 point cycles in between.
I congratulate both teams on their achievements.
Saberbot
08-03-2013, 19:34
But they have no way of guaranteeing that they are in the same division. In fact in 75% of cases they are in different divisions. That's what makes collusion implausible.
Yes, but they aren't necessarily dependent on each other just robots with the same skill sets. They chose to perfect their respective skills because the flexibility of a robot with a lot of mediocre skills is less necessary when they are able to form a well rounded alliance out of "cream of the crop" specialized robots at champs.,
How big is the penalty for holding more than 4 discs at a time in teleop?
Can you hold more than 4 discs at a time in teleop? Is there a penalty?
You can never hold more than 4 discs at any time in the match. PENALTY: 3 point penalty per disc.
S/N: in the future be sure to check the rules.
So how many times have there been 2 undefeated robots in the same regional event? Was just thinking that might happen if 2056 and 1114 go undefeated.
So how many times have there been 2 undefeated robots in the same regional event? Was just thinking that might happen if 2056 and 1114 go undefeated.
1114 did not go undefeated, they had one draw (Match Q35)
1114 did not go undefeated, they had one draw (Match Q35)
When I say undefeated I mean they were not defeated. A draw in my book is not a defeat, so both 2056 and 1114 are undefeated at this point.
z_beeblebrox
09-03-2013, 15:33
1114 + 2056 = >200!
I was torn among watching WPI for the teams coming to Hartford; watching GTRE for the amazing performances there; and repair of mailbox damaged during recent snowstorm.
I thought I saw a 100-pt climb total for one of the matches. A 30 and two 10s on each side.
Atonomous
09-03-2013, 20:22
The alliance pick by 2056 to team up with 1114 was boring, and I for one though that this early in the game they would have chosen to play against each other to gain experience and game play knowledge instead of the "steam roller" dominance that you chose. Shame on you both for just grabbing yet another regional win. That is not what I would expect of the high calibre teams that you are. As far as I am concerned, it was a hollow meaningless regional win. :mad:
Let me explain....Both teams knew that one of them was going to win this regional, this is a given. Neither of them needed the win to qualify for worlds. It could have been a mutual learning experience that both of them missed. Instead they chose the safe route. Flame on, my heat shields are up and ready.
@ Atonomous: If you were the #1 seed at an event, and you wanted to win, who would you pick--a team you've worked with well before, and who if you don't pick you'll have to face in the finals, or a team that maybe you haven't worked so well with/you know won't help much?
I know I'm feeding the trolls here, but it's a question worth considering, for all of us. I know that there are other alliances that tend to crop up year after year, beating most other alliances in their path. But is that alliance always the best? (And, before anybody answers: best for who?)
My vote is we don't start this debate, again.
Atonomous
09-03-2013, 20:50
EricH and tim-tim
I understand this is a previously long drawn out affair, but given I am a long term lurker who just signed on because of what I witnessed this week-end...bear with me. These two teams are power houses, that is a given. Both didnt need this win to qualify for worlds, because they are already there. That is a known fact. So why not take the opportunity to give teams that are not qualified or in the same league to experience the growth that they need? To gain the knowledge and experience these teams have enjoyed for many years? How do you gain this level of experience without the help of the top teams? I am not really bashing 2056 or 1114, I am just saying that they both missed a good opportunity to help lesser teams gain valuable on hands experience.
The alliance pick by 2056 to team up with 1114 was boring, and I for one though that this early in the game they would have chosen to play against each other to gain experience and game play knowledge instead of the "steam roller" dominance that you chose. Shame on you both for just grabbing yet another regional win. That is not what I would expect of the high calibre teams that you are. As far as I am concerned, it was a hollow meaningless regional win. :mad:
2056 and 1114 aren't be default the winners of every regional they go to. Yes, they're both great teams and they will be among the favorites every year they participate. But they probably won't always be elite every year they play. Just look at 217 and 67 this year. I would have bet a lot of money based on their history that they would have at least made it to the finals at their respective regional events, and I would bet even more money that their losses were upsets. I would have lost a lot of money if I made those bet. 217 and 67 are every bit as good as 2056 and 1114, and see no reason why they might not be as good next year. 2056 and 1114 should enjoy their success as long as possible.
Also, just because they won today doesn't mean they will win any of their other events. 1114 were favorites to win the Midwest Regional in 2009, and they were upset by an alliance in the quarterfinals that didn't even win that event. 1114 DID win a regional event later that year, but pretend for a moment they played that regional first. If they thought they would surely win the Midwest regional and declined 2056, then they may have lost that event and they wouldn't necessarily qualify for the championship event at all.
And I also don't agree that 1114 and 2056 made the event boring. They didn't participate in over half the elimination matches, and even the matches did they play in weren't necessarily boring. I thought the finals were exciting, even if 2056 and 1114 did win the event.
If you are really feeling these things then I don't think you really get the point of these competitions. These teams did nothing shameful. They are admired and respected by most of the FIRST community partly because they are consistently good year after year. You should be asking these teams questions, and try to aspire to be on their level. They deserve the wins with all the work they do (including possibly the work that has benefited you and your team). And I think it would be more helpful for you and your team to admire what they do and learn how to be as successful as them.
Andrew Lawrence
09-03-2013, 21:10
EricH and tim-tim
I understand this is a previously long drawn out affair, but given I am a long term lurker who just signed on because of what I witnessed this week-end...bear with me. These two teams are power houses, that is a given. Both didnt need this win to qualify for worlds, because they are already there. That is a known fact. So why not take the opportunity to give teams that are not qualified or in the same league to experience the growth that they need? To gain the knowledge and experience these teams have enjoyed for many years? How do you gain this level of experience without the help of the top teams? I am not really bashing 2056 or 1114, I am just saying that they both missed a good opportunity to help lesser teams gain valuable on hands experience.
I understand what you're trying to say, but put yourself in their shoes. Yes, they are going to qualify anyways and probably win the regional, but putting out any less than 110% on the field doesn't benefit them in any way, and if I were on the field, I'd always want to put out my 110%. Yes, by them not teaming up together, they would allow a few more teams to go to champs, but that's not their goal. This is a competition. If you have an amazing robot, go out there and use it to its full potential. When picking alliance partners, choose the team(s) that pair best with you and will most improve your chances of success. Even with 1114 and 2056, success isn't guaranteed.
EricH and tim-tim
I understand this is a previously long drawn out affair, but given I am a long term lurker who just signed on because of what I witnessed this week-end...bear with me. These two teams are power houses, that is a given. Both didnt need this win to qualify for worlds, because they are already there. That is a known fact. So why not take the opportunity to give teams that are not qualified or in the same league to experience the growth that they need? To gain the knowledge and experience these teams have enjoyed for many years? How do you gain this level of experience without the help of the top teams? I am not really bashing 2056 or 1114, I am just saying that they both missed a good opportunity to help lesser teams gain valuable on hands experience.
To be honest, I'm glad 1114 and 2056 teamed up again. I think (and I believe almost everyone agrees) that those two teams were the best performers at GTER, and allying with each other gave both the best opportunity to win. This is a competition, and if 2056 used their first pick on some other team "just to be nice", then it would prove to me that they are not taking the competition seriously (by not playing to win), and the integrity of the event would be compromised.
Remember that Gracious Professionalism doesn't conflict with playing hard and trying to win--it actually encourages it--but only juxtaposes it with being courteous and helping make sure that everyone can have a fair competition. Having a fair competition also doesn't mean that 1114 and 2056 have to be split up, because it's perfectly fair that they are together, given that they have not broken any FRC rules by doing so.
As has been said before, the best way to level the playing field is not to hold the top down, but to help the bottom up. There aren't many teams who have inspired or assisted as many others as 1114 and 2056 have--just look at who took home the Chairman's Clock last year.
To be honest, I'm glad 1114 and 2056 teamed up again. I think (and I believe almost everyone agrees) that those two teams were the best performers at GTER, and allying with each other gave both the best opportunity to win. This is a competition, and if 2056 used their first pick on some other team "just to be nice", then it would prove to me that they are not taking the competition seriously (by not playing to win), and the integrity of the event would be compromised.
Right. And letting teams have a chance "just to be nice" would also seem condescending to a lot of people.
I would also add that 1114 and 2056 intentionally giving themselves a harder chance to win would be at the expense of the members of their teams that have not tasted similar success that members in past years have experienced. And plenty of teams have the opportunity to qualify for championships in other ways. In no way is 1114 and 2056 preventing other teams from getting to St Louis through other means.
Atonomous
09-03-2013, 21:24
Just because it is Team 1114 or 2056 it is not an auto-win. There are many teams with different modes of opperation that are successful.
iVanDuzer
09-03-2013, 21:39
The alliance pick by 2056 to team up with 1114 was boring, and I for one though that this early in the game they would have chosen to play against each other to gain experience and game play knowledge instead of the "steam roller" dominance that you chose.
This year, both teams built wildly different robots, on a scale that hasn't been seen since 2009. Since then, both teams have built different robots that have done the same tasks. But this year they (unwittingly) built complementary robots. The same kind of complementary robots that they would team up with at Worlds. These two teams built Einstein calibre robots, but to get there, they need to work with teams with different skill-sets. 2056 and 1114 were getting game-play knowledge... but not for regional play. For Einstein play. Being able to interface with other robots of differing skill sets is the key to becoming World Champs. And that takes practice.
Shame on you both for just grabbing yet another regional win. That is not what I would expect of the high calibre teams that you are. As far as I am concerned, it was a hollow meaningless regional win. :mad:
Is it hollow to set a world high score, and then break it, and then break it again? Is it hollow for 1325, whose autonomous mode helped keep the red alliance in the game after blue pulled ahead in finals-2? Is it hollow for 2056 to not want to lose, to continue the streak that has put them on the map and made them a household name? Is it hollow for 2056 to go undefeated at a regional, a feat not accomplished by teams like 118, 148, 254, 2826, 67, 610, 1114? All of these are huge victories that in some ways eclipse a regional title.
Let me explain....Both teams knew that one of them was going to win this regional, this is a given. Neither of them needed the win to qualify for worlds. It could have been a mutual learning experience that both of them missed. Instead they chose the safe route. Flame on, my heat shields are up and ready.
Let me phrase this another way: both of these teams have sponsors. These sponsors expect that they are sponsoring winning robots. These sponsors are very involved and very interested in how these teams do. Say 2056 doesn't choose 1114, and then loses to them in the finals. They have to go to their sponsors and explain why they set up their own defeat. That they basically sabotaged their own winning effort, and that they threw away a streak that is 7 years in the making. I'd imagine those sponsors would think twice about giving money next year. I know I would.
--
When looking at 1114 and 2056, you have to acknowledge that they're simply on a different plane than the rest of us. Even amongst powerhouses, they stand as strong teams. They don't play the "let's get to Worlds" game that the vast majority of FIRST plays. They play the "let's be continuous Einstein contenders." To do this means to take their machines to the very limit, a limit best explored by working with a like-minded team.
Let's not forget that the Wild Card system is designed to bring more teams to CMP who wouldn't have made it otherwise, which is great. No need to take regional wins from those who deserve it.
Billfred
09-03-2013, 21:51
Going back to 2010, Simbotics is 9 for 10 at regionals. And those nine are with 2056:
GTRE 2013: 2056 #1.
GTRE 2012: Simbots #1.
Waterloo 2012: Simbots #1.
GTRE 2011: Simbots #1.
Waterloo 2011: Simbots #1.
Pittsburgh 2011: Simbots #1.
Pittsburgh 2010: Simbots #1.
Waterloo 2010: Simbots #1.
GTR 2010: Simbots #1.
What happened in the tenth (GTR-W 2012)? 3161 racked up 20 coopertition points to eke them out on qualification points and get #1 seed. 1114 was #2, 2056 was #7...and obviously there was no way those two were going to end up paired in eliminations at that point. The former got silver with 3161, the latter got gold.
In summary: Don't like the 1114-2056 combo? Outrank them.
Going back to 2010, Simbotics is 9 for 10 at regionals. And those nine are with 2056:
GTRE 2013: 2056 #1.
GTRE 2012: Simbots #1.
Waterloo 2012: Simbots #1.
GTRE 2011: Simbots #1.
Waterloo 2011: Simbots #1.
Pittsburgh 2011: Simbots #1.
Pittsburgh 2010: Simbots #1.
Waterloo 2010: Simbots #1.
GTR 2010: Simbots #1.
What happened in the tenth (GTR-W 2012)? 3161 racked up 20 coopertition points to eke them out on qualification points and get #1 seed. 1114 was #2, 2056 was #7...and obviously there was no way those two were going to end up paired in eliminations at that point. The former got silver with 3161, the latter got gold.
In summary: Don't like the 1114-2056 combo? Outrank them.
Or perform well enough so that 1114 or 2056 would think they would have a better chance of winning with you than with the other. 1114 and 2056 don't always choose each other when given the opportunity. Think IRI.
In my 11 years of FRC experience, 1114 has been dominant since 2005, and has 20 regional champions banners to prove it. 2056's 15 regional streak is nothing short of amazing. I've spent much of the last 11 years studying the Canadian powerhouses, and learning what works and what doesn't.
I wouldn't want them to not join forces for elims unless it was a truly better decision for them. 1114 was considerably stronger than either 1241 or 4343, and so I fully support their choice. Playing the way they do has helped to make the Canadian second tier so strong that they can consistently go to other events where they aren't as overpowered, and bring home hardware. 610, 781, 772, 188, and more I can't remember right now have all been champions elsewhere.
As a mentor for the #3 seed and captain of the Finalist alliance, I'm really proud of the team. They set out this year to perform better than their #30 seed, 3-7-0, not selected for elims performance in 2012. I never expected this weekend to go quite as well as it did. Losing only 1 match in qualifications to an alliance including 1114 by just 6 points (67-73) and then 2 more to 1114/2056 in finals with triple digit losing scores is certainly an improvement to say the least.
Congrats 2056/1114/1325 on another well-earned victory, and congrats to 781 on a long-time-coming RCA.
akoscielski3
09-03-2013, 22:11
Quickly posting and never again in this thread.
1114 and 2056 are like brothers, why would they go against each other if they can add to how legendary their success is, has been, and will be.
This thread better not turn into the thread it turned into last year.
That is all.
Atonomous
09-03-2013, 22:13
FIRST was supposed to be about inspiration, it has come down to sponsorship and dollars and cents.
Akash Rastogi
09-03-2013, 22:16
FIRST was supposed to be about inspiration, it has come down to sponsorship and dollars and cents.
lol
Aside from this clown....
Congrats 2056, 1114, and 1325 on another big win! 1325 was a steal in the 2nd round! Way to go folks.
I wouldn't want them to not join forces for elims unless it was a truly better decision for them. 1114 was considerably stronger than either 1241 or 4343, and so I fully support their choice. Playing the way they do has helped to make the Canadian second tier so strong that they can consistently go to other events where they aren't as overpowered, and bring home hardware. 610, 781, 772, 188, and more I can't remember right now have all been champions elsewhere.
Not to mention success at the Championship event as well. 188 and 610 were division finalists, and 781 was a finalist on Einstein in 2011.
FIRST was supposed to be about inspiration, it has come down to sponsorship and dollars and cents.
Then get out there, in the community, and raise some money! These teams have worked hard to get to where they are, and you have the ability to do the same, with a lot of hard work and dedication. A really good post I saw a while back from a member of 973 (I believe, and I wish I could find it) recalled when they really kicked it into high gear and became the force they are today. You can make up ground and compete with these guys, as long as you don't spend your time complaining about how you can't.
Anything 2056 does that isn't putting in 110% effort into keeping their winning streak alive would be just plain stupid. If you have a problem that they picked 1114 (again), then build a better robot than them. Top tier teams don't pick teams because they are friends, they pick the best team remaining. Remember you don't have to be better than both of them, just one of them.
JohnFogarty
09-03-2013, 22:23
I want to pull out the proverbial wacking stick.
The success of teams of 1114 and 2056 is inspiration, it inspires me to one day start FRC teams to combat the success of said "powerhouses."
I'll use a story from my FTC days. Back when I created the team 3864 I had already been to the FTC World Championship once and I knew who the powehouse teams were...2818, 1, 4447, etc. and after seeing their robots that year it inspired me to create a better team with a better robot. That rookie team went all the way to win the world championship in 2010. Now that success is unprecedented and is the exception to this argument, but teams like 1114 and 2056 are inspiring kids everyday and setting the bar high saying "you want this blue banner...well you come over here and get it."
Hey- did anyone notice the other robots that were playing at this regional?
Or should we have a moderator rename this thread to "1114 and 2056 go to GTR East"
JohnFogarty
09-03-2013, 22:29
Hey- did anyone notice the other robots that were playing at this regional?
Or should we have a moderator rename this thread to "1114 and 2056 go to GTR East"
Everytime I saw your team number I chuckled saying, "This team needs to win..." Also. Solid 30 pt climber, You have an blog posts on how it works anywhere?
ghostmachine360
09-03-2013, 22:40
The alliance pick by 2056 to team up with 1114 was boring, and I for one though that this early in the game they would have chosen to play against each other to gain experience and game play knowledge instead of the "steam roller" dominance that you chose. Shame on you both for just grabbing yet another regional win. That is not what I would expect of the high calibre teams that you are. As far as I am concerned, it was a hollow meaningless regional win. :mad:
Let me explain....Both teams knew that one of them was going to win this regional, this is a given. Neither of them needed the win to qualify for worlds. It could have been a mutual learning experience that both of them missed. Instead they chose the safe route. Flame on, my heat shields are up and ready.
I'm just going to put this here, for my first response to that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9kpTvm6CYA
My secondary response:
I don't care whether a team has a lock already on a Championships spot already, or if they even had a automatic spot onto Einstein even; I would NEVER want them to go less than their 100%. It's a disservice to the men & women that organized & volunteered at the event, the sponsors who helped pay for the event, the spectators, the students competing, and themselves as a team/community. Your response is the evidence of wussification (reference to Christopher Titus, look him up) in a generation. You are never entitled to success. You must WORK FOR IT. If you want to change the competition dynamic, as Billfred said: outrank them.
It disheartens me every time to see these kinds of posts; we should be praising excellence from teams like 1114 & 2056, and emulating it; not invalidating it. There's a reason 1114 won the Championship Chairman's Award; they are a model, nay, the model for FIRST. I have tried to follow their standards through my years in FIRST after losing to them in 2009 at Championships during Division Elims, and it's worked out for me pretty well. Inaugral FRC Dean's List winner, starting my own robotics program, working for GeorgiaFIRST; I'm better off because I learned from them, not because I thought to bring them down in others' eyes (which I couldn't honestly, if I ever wanted to).
Final note: maybe you should watch this as well. It's their 2012 CCA video; it was one of my main inspirations in starting my robotics program later in 2012.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFwz3FZqiuc
Congratulations to 781 for earning the Chairman's Award. You guys have a strong program. Can't wait to see what comes next!
FIRST was supposed to be about inspiration, it has come down to sponsorship and dollars and cents.
Said it a couple weeks ago, and I'll say it again. The elite aren't great because they have great sponsors. They have great sponsors BECAUSE they're great.
There are many teams with big sponsors and budgets significantly larger than 1114/2056 and the rest of the elite, and they don't perform nearly as well, so you never hear about them.
The elite are great because of their great mentors. All of the elites have stellar mentors, and it shows.
Everytime I saw your team number I chuckled saying, "This team needs to win..." Also. Solid 30 pt climber, You have an blog posts on how it works anywhere?
Lol thanks, we've got two more regionals to go so don't count us out yet! There is a long list of improvments to hash out over the next week and a bit before Boston. The team is very determined to make this year "Their" year to win.
Unfortunately we don't have any data posted specifically on how it works but I've got a pile of on-board GoPro video which should show the hardware in action. I'll try to get something posted soon. In the mean time, the reveal video one of our members made has some footage of our practice bot climbing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LFh7FpmcQk&feature=youtu.be
Check us out on Facebook for updates. "Cybergnomes Robotics FRC Team 2013"
As a driver for team 1325, it was almost surreal walking onto the field and accepting the alliance request from 2056 and 1114. Though we're really passionate, we haven't been very successful in the past. This year, we decided to put everything we had into it, which was made quite difficult by teachers' job action, our limited resources, and the fact that we have an extremely young team. Also, our first day of competition was pretty shaky,and we doubted making any alliances. However, like some of the other users have said previously, you can't whine about not winning a regional because of powerhouse teams. My opinion might seem biased since I was on their alliance, but I honestly believe that our team, as well as many others, look up to teams like 2056 and 1114, and try to emulate their actions.
Last year was my first year in FRC, and I spent a lot of time wondering how top-notch teams like theirs worked so well. After being on an alliance with them, and working with them, I've learned a lot. It's their attention to detail, their mentors, and their passionate students that really lift them up. They have their sponsors because of these qualities. They were calm, polite, and very professional, even though our robot and driving weren't as good as theirs. A lot of the improvement we experienced from last year to this year was because we looked at teams like 2056 and 1114 and tried to have similar qualities. We're not there yet, but they've certainly inspired us to try harder this season.
Something else I noticed during this regional was the increase in the quality of rookie teams. Especially noticeable was 4476, the WAFFLES. I had a hard time convincing people that they were a rookie team. Congrats to 781 for the RCA win! Something interesting during this regional was when 2013 (was it you guys with the 2-speeds? I think it was, correct me if I'm mistaken) tried to push us, and we had a 6-CIM drive train...it was cool to see what would happen. Have you ever tried headbutting anyone with those hats? :P
1241 is another team with a powerful bot, and they also had a pit to match. That pit setup was gorgeous, I'm jealous :P Also, 1075 had these awesome sparkly bumpers....our pit was right beside theirs, and I never grew tired of staring at their bumpers.
Obligatory first post note: This is my first post, so sorry if formatting/etiquette is off.
First, congrats to 2056, 1114, and 1325; a phenomenal win. Congratulations also to 4343, 1241, and 216 for ignoring the memo about not having a chance & making the winning alliance work for it.
The alliance pick by 2056 to team up with 1114 was boring, and I for one though that this early in the game they would have chosen to play against each other to gain experience and game play knowledge instead of the "steam roller" dominance that you chose. Shame on you both for just grabbing yet another regional win. That is not what I would expect of the high calibre teams that you are. As far as I am concerned, it was a hollow meaningless regional win. :mad:
Let me explain....Both teams knew that one of them was going to win this regional, this is a given. Neither of them needed the win to qualify for worlds. It could have been a mutual learning experience that both of them missed. Instead they chose the safe route. Flame on, my heat shields are up and ready.
I'm not sure why Atonomous has a problem with the way alliance selections went. I support all teams picking the best robot to complement them & form a strong alliance; otherwise what's the point of competing? There's been a lot said about sponsorships, showing excellence, etc.; I won't repeat any of that.
The only thing I can think of that might be a good reason to pick someone else is to give that team "elite" playing experience. And I totally reject that as an acceptable reason. Teams at regionals the "elite" teams attend get the chance to play on alliances with them during qualifications, and (probably more importantly) get to see them close up both on & off the field. Any team that doesn't take advantage of proximity to other teams ("elite" or otherwise) to learn is shortchanging themselves & has no business blaming anyone but themselves for not doing so. And in no way should they wait for the other teams to initiate the conversation.
We've had the good fortune to be on winning regional alliances with 2 former World Champion teams. In one case they picked us; in the other they were our best pick. I'd hate to think that either picked us (or accepted our selection) just because they wanted to be nice or help give us experience. I know that the alliances formed because they were good for both teams, and that's the way it should have been.
1018sophmore
10-03-2013, 00:16
Among all this bickering I'd just like to say this regional had some amazing robots and watching how alliances worked out with different robot strengths was really enlightening and congrats to simbotics and op you inspire as always and to 1325 I can relate to your team
Something else I noticed during this regional was the increase in the quality of rookie teams. Especially noticeable was 4476, the WAFFLES. I had a hard time convincing people that they were a rookie team.
4476, and 4718 too. Both had strong robots. If 4476 hadn't chosen 4718, they would have been the 6th alliance captain.
It helps having some strong veteran mentors though, 4476 has a former 610 mentor, and 4718 has at least one former 188 mentor.
PayneTrain
10-03-2013, 01:10
I'm not going to do the popular thing on Chief Delphi and take my pound of flesh out on this guy, so I will just say three things:
1. Why can't this ever be a normal thread? It is the same tired shtick every year. You say who's coming, you loosely catalog the event's happenings, you congratulate the teams, and move on. Instead, it's this all-out verbal war that has been fought on this site so many times it makes me sick.
2. I really want to be on the same field as some of these teams one day. I want to rise up above the rest, because pulling them down is pointless. If I was ever on a team that intentionally sandbagged an event, I couldn't be with them anymore. If I played on a field against teams who were sandbagging it, I wouldn't ever really win that match, would I?
3. If I am jealous of anything, I'm jealous of the quality of the average team that shows up to GTRE/W/Waterloo because 1114 and 2056 have pushed their whole country to step it up. 610 is going to have a battle in Waterloo after they tore up BAE, and I love it. That's what I want. I don't want to win all the time, I want my state to have a killer reputation for robotics instead of a killer reputation for DC Beltway construction, deficient bridges, and bay cleanups.
Something interesting during this regional was when 2013 (was it you guys with the 2-speeds? I think it was, correct me if I'm mistaken) tried to push us, and we had a 6-CIM drive train...it was cool to see what would happen.
Don't think it was us as we are running 6 CIM single speed as well.
Anupam Goli
10-03-2013, 13:04
To me, it's quite clear what the impact of 1114 and 2056 is in Canada. The competition level was very fierce at GTE. I'm willing to wager that if any of those alliance captains or 1st picks were to come down to the Southeast US (excluding Florida), they would end up being regional winners or finalists. It's like the same with Michigan, because of the level of competition for the blue banner, the whole region is becoming stronger in terms of robot performances and the teams themselves. Part of that HAS to be the effect 1114 and 2056 have on Canada FIRST and all of the resources both teams provide.
To me, it's quite clear what the impact of 1114 and 2056 is in Canada. The competition level was very fierce at GTE. I'm willing to wager that if any of those alliance captains or 1st picks were to come down to the Southeast US (excluding Florida), they would end up being regional winners or finalists. It's like the same with Michigan, because of the level of competition for the blue banner, the whole region is becoming stronger in terms of robot performances and the teams themselves. Part of that HAS to be the effect 1114 and 2056 have on Canada FIRST and all of the resources both teams provide.
Absolutely correct. See: 772 in 2012.
Yipyapper
10-03-2013, 14:18
On behalf of Team 781, I'd like to thank everyone for your sincere congratulations on our Chairman's Award win. The members of our team that worked on presenting the award worked so hard to get there all season long, and it's quite a feeling to see them (and the rest of the team, of course) become this happy. In place of the nervousness they felt when they were doing it along with the admirable Team 1241--Theory 6--was replaced with tears of joy. This was worth more than our upset last year at Queen City, more than our regional win in Toronto two years ago and even more than our World Finals finish that same year (don't take that as a team opinion, although I'm sure it's echoed by at least most of them).
A huge congratulations to 1114 and 2056 for their 20th and god-knows-how-many regional wins for them, respectively. Both of you are nothing short of amazing to see year after year, what with your stunning robots and inspiration to every FIRST team. 1114 is a Hall of Fame team for extremely good reason, and it wouldn't be surprising if I see another 4-digit team from Stoney Creek join them.
Thanks for another fun regional, and Team 781 will see you in Waterloo (if you'll be there)!
EDIT: And an enormous thank you to the group who made this regional possible, the volunteers. I'm not sure if Karthik was the chair this year like last year, but whatever he did do, he's obviously included in this thanks. Can't wait to see you MC at Waterloo! (James wasn't too bad either!)
lakstick
10-03-2013, 15:22
Congratulations also to 4343, 1241, and 216 for ignoring the memo about not having a chance & making the winning alliance work for it.
Thank you! Our three teams, 216, 244, and 288, had an incredible weekend up in Canada! We beat all odds being able to compete in the tournament after many of our parts were stolen the night before the tournament, and there was no way that we were going to give up in the finals!
We've had the ability to compete with both Simbotics and OP Robotics for 3 years now, and we are incredibly impressed by their robots every year. In fact, Simbotics was one of the teams that really stepped up and donated computers, drive stations, and tools to our teams!
We are proud of our work, and we can't wait to (hopefully) see everyone up in Canada again next year!
Gaurav27
10-03-2013, 15:27
First, congrats to 2056, 1114, and 1325; a phenomenal win. Congratulations also to 4343, 1241, and 216 for ignoring the memo about not having a chance & making the winning alliance work for it.
Thanks Jaxom! We tried. :)
GTR-E was incredibly well run. Match cycles were so efficient, the event was mostly running ahead of time. Great work by all the volunteers and organizers who made this possible. Thank you all.
We would like to congratulate 4343 MaxTech on their incredible show of GP on and off the field. On the field, a simple and efficient robot with fast cycles. This team were excellent alliance captains, very cooperative and open to listen to our picks and match strategies. For a second year team, you get it. See you at GTR-W. 216 More RoboDawgs were also great alliance partners. It was a pleasure to work with one of the Michigan - Grandville teams. Thank you both!
Congratulations to 2056 (#15), 1114 (#20) and 1325 (their first) on the Regional Victory. We hope that we gave you a hard time in the finals :p
Congratulations to 4476 W.A.F.F.L.E.S on their wonderful display of FIRST's values on and off the field. Highest Rookie Seed, Rookie All-Star and a FIRST Dean's Finalist Award. As for their robot, simply outstanding. They chose to be a low goal dumper and defended against veteran teams like champions. I'm incredibly happy for you guys. I also love both their abbreviation and acronym :cool:
Congratulations to 781 on the RCA, very well deserved. We're nothing less than happy for this team, they've gone to many heights to achieve this award. On the field, the schedule was very tough for the Kinetic Knights, facing either 1114 or 2056 in 5 of their qualification matches!
It's only been hours since GTR-E, can't wait till Waterloo and GTR-W! :)
EDIT: And an enormous thank you to the group who made this regional possible, the volunteers. I'm not sure if Karthik was the chair this year like last year, but whatever he did do, he's obviously included in this thanks. Can't wait to see you MC at Waterloo! (James wasn't too bad either!)
Thanks, Aaron. Yes I was the Regional Chair once again. The regional was an amazing success, made possible by some of the most dedicated and experienced volunteers in FIRST. These people really are the heart of FIRST in Canada; I'm regularly humbled by working along side them.
It was amazing seeing Team 781 win their first Chairman's Award in their team history. For the past 12 seasons, they've been growing and fostering FIRST in their community and beyond. They've gone unrecognized in the past, which must make yesterday's victory seem even more sweet. The reactions of their team once they realized they had won were priceless.
Finally, a special congratulations to James Cerar, the 2013 GTR East Volunteer of the Year. Anyone crazy enough to be a Lead Robot Inspector, Head Referee and FTA in the same season, doing each role in a different province, deserves an award of this stature.
Atonomous is obviously frustrated.
I don't mind his comment at all - because it is painfully honest. At least he/she is saying exactly what's on their mind, instead of slipping away quietly, throwing their hands in the air, and leaving the FRC program entirely without ever expressing their frustrations. For all I know Atonomous could be one of the incredibly dedicated Ontario mentors who's been involved with FRC for over a decade, has worked tirelessly to build a world-class robot year after year, but just can't take the final step to qualify for Champs because it is so incredibly difficult to do in Ontario.
Or maybe he/she has just sacrificed a year of their life trying to do the ultimate FRC challenge: getting a rookie team off the ground. Maybe they are contemplating not coming back next year because they feel disenfranchised. Team sustainability is one of the biggest challenges FRC faces, and the last thing we want are good mentors walking away from the program.
What I don't appreciate is a throng of non-Ontario teams jumping down his/her throat and pushing them further away, instead of actually trying to understand why this person is frustrated, and maybe even fix it.
That's just lazy and unproductive.
I am in a very fortunate position where I constantly get to hear very raw, unadulterated, and passionate comments from other Ontario mentors. I couldn't tell you how many times a mentor has pulled me aside at competition and started the conversation with "I'm not coming back next year because..."
Frankly, you need to take comments like that very seriously, and act on them (i.e. pushing for a WildCard system, district point system, or even putting together a plan on how to help their team obtain a qualification spot to CMP).
Being in Ontario, it's not hard to see why people (like Atonomous) say these things.
Consider the following:
In a pre-wildcard system, if 610 had competed at GTRE instead of BAE this year, 610 probably wouldn't qualify for CMP.
In 2012, if 610 had competed in WAT instead of AZ, we wouldn't have qualified for CMP.
In 2011, 610 played only in Ontario, and did not qualify for CMP. We attended only because we pre-registered as we hadn't qualified for CMP for so many years prior. This robot went on to be 469's 1st pick, and a Curie division finalist, losing to the eventual world champs in 3 matches.
We're lucky that 610 has the resources to travel... we would travel anyways, because we love representing our city, province, country and FIRST as a whole. But fundamentally, we are an Ontario team who should be competing in Ontario as much as possible. Consistently leaving Ontario to find a spot at CMP seems... well... wrong. Truthfully, I don't think the people in the areas outside of Ontario where we compete find it all that great that we take away local spots from them either.
But it's that, or strategically trying to be the 24th best team at all our Ontario regionals, which also seems... well... wrong.
And it's not just 610. There is a large pool of world-class teams in Ontario who probably deserve to go to CMP each year, but just can't find a way despite building robots which are CMP worthy, but just not as good as 2056 and 1114.
188 did not qualify or attend CMP in 2012 - a shocker, because both 610 and 188 were actually favoured to beat 2056 and 1114 in the GTRE finals that year. Yes, hard to believe CD, but ask the actual people in the stands that day at the 2012 GTRE and they'll tell you the same. Also, 188 only snuck in to CMP in 2010 and 2011 as a last-minute wait-listed team as they couldn't qualify. Crazy...
What if 4334 was an Ontario team? Would their robot ever qualify for CMP again? They're too good to be 24th pick at an Ontario regional, but not quite good enough (yet) to beat them. The original "Eh Team" would never reunite at CMP.
I would never berate a team who is looking out for their own success. Winning a regional is of the utmost importance to some teams. It was to us last year in AZ, and this year in BAE.
But as we know, FIRST is about so much more than the robots...
For teams who have already secured a spot at CMP, it could also be about ensuring that our area/province/country is represented by as many of the best area teams as possible at CMP, and that these teams get the opportunity to be inspired on the biggest FRC stage in the world. This is a bigger picture view that has a lot of merit, especially for teams that believe in the concept of "Team Canada" or have similar patriotic or regional motivations.
Now, the wildcard system changes things dramatically in Ontario, and I hope people like Atonomous appreciate the effect it has on us. It's still not perfect. It's not quite the district points system, but it is much better than before. Previously, at GTRE, WAT and GTRW a total of 6 of the 9 Ontario winner qualification spots could be used up by two dominant teams. Those duplicate spots used to simply disappear, lost forever into the abyss. The remaining 3 would go to "24th-best" calibre robots. The 3rd to 6th best robots in Ontario would never get a shot at CMP. With the wildcards now, the landscape changes dramatically.
Consider the "worst case" at Waterloo and GTRW, assuming 1114 and 2056 win both. At both these regionals the Finalist Alliance Captain and their 1st Pick would be offered spots to CMP.
You'd better believe teams like 772, 907, 1310, 1334, 1503, 2013, 2220, 2386, 2702, 2852, 3161, and 3683 are going to be gunning for those 4 finalist spots. Whereas in the past, they would be completely shut out.
You'll notice there is no negativity towards 2056 or 1114 in this post. They've earned everything they've gotten.
But there needs to be a way for Ontario's other teams to see success as well, because quite frankly, they've earned it too.
We're getting there, but there's still plenty of work to do.
On behalf of the alumni, congratulations Team 781 on our team's first Regional Chairman's Award. I am incredibly impressed by how much work you have done over the past few years.
The powerhouse teams in Ontario have had a huge impact on Ontario teams in multiple ways. In the former CMP qualification system (pre-Wildcards), many Ontario teams began focusing their efforts on the Chairman's award as a way to qualify for champs. It seems to have paid off; 1305, 771, 1241, 1334, 2809 and 781 (I'm probably forgetting some) have all won either Chairman's or EI in recent years.
In response to Mr. Lim's post, I agree that it has been too difficult in the past to qualify based solely on robot performance in Ontario. Teams like 1114 and 2056 have drastically elevated the level of play in Ontario, but unfortunately many second-tier teams never qualify for Champs. I think the best example was in 2011 when Greater Toronto was split into a double regional. 1114 won East with 1503 as their first pick, while 2056 won West with 781. At Champs, both 1114 and 2056 were #1 divisional picks (an incredible achievement). However, both of their partners from Toronto, 1503 and 781, played on Einstein that year. If 1114 and 2056 had played together at GTR that year, these Ontario teams would not have been able to show what they can do on the world stage. Ultimately, this wild card system will be better for us because it will allow more Canadian teams to compete at the highest level.
Duncan Macdonald
10-03-2013, 18:06
2809 had a great time this past weekend. Hopefully Kingston teams wont earn a reputation after 2809 and 4476 broke each other in sequential elimination matches.
Suggesting 2056 should pick someone else is not a well thought out idea. If there were an event later in the year with 781, 1241, 4476, 2809, 610 attending would you tell them not to pick each other as well so other teams could get the championship eligibility passed down to them if they win or are finalists?
To further on what Shawn said. I'm hoping that the wild card system will be expanded to pass down eligibility regardless of how the existing entry to championships was earned now that 1114 is a Hall of Fame team. Without this I see the typical 3rd to 10th canadian teams avoiding GTRE in the future and "letting" 1114 and 2056 take the first event. (Nobody wants to see GTRE 2011 ever again)
The only issue I have with 1114 and 2056 is that there are exactly two of them. If Ontario can get 3,4 or 24 teams consistently up to this level then we won't see this thread every year. For those of you across the border, it wasn't that long ago that you didn't have to be the Robodogs to come and visit (https://my.usfirst.org/myarea/index.lasso?page=teamlist&event_type=FRC&sort_teams=number&year=2006&event=on). The total level of competition is definitely increasing but we've got some work to do still.
(Average points by team on friday to the best of our scouts ability [1114 started hanging consistently on saturday])
http://i46.tinypic.com/iolt95.jpg
Congratulations to 781, 1241, 2056, 1114, 1325, 4476 on their success this weekend.
David and Mr. Lim are spot on.
The wildcard system will have a huge impact in Ontario, and in other regions where multiple CMP slots are consistently eaten up by the same elite few teams.
Its just unfortunate they restricted it to "Has already won a 2013 regional" and not "Already qualified for CMP on a merit-based invitation". It means that 1241 and 4343 making Finalist Captain and Finalist 1st pick at GTRE this weekend, eventually being defeated by the "already qualified as 2012 Einstein Robots" 1114 and 2056, aren't invited to CMP.
I'd like to share Stephen Covey's Habit #1 here... "Be Proactive". He advocates an "Inside-Out" approach, starting from one's self.
What can I do to make a difference?
1. If you like the wildcard system, please join me in sending an email to FRC at frcteams@usfirst.org to give them credits for listening to the communities' need. Or send one to Dean Kamen (mailto:contactDEKA@dekaresearch.com) himself too. I am sure all of them are keen to hear suggestions for improvements too!
2. There are an exceptional number of passionate volunteers in the FIRST community here. They care about FIRST's mission and the students very much. Encourage everyone to participate in CANFIRST. The more participation, the more likely we will enhance the overall impact of FIRST in Canada, quality of the teams, and eventually make this thread obsolete.
3. If you are a student, learn as much as possible from the powerhouses like 1114 and 2056. Visit their pits, talk to their folks, don't be shy. Once you have acquired these knowledge, you have already won... whatever happens on the playing field.
I experienced my first Ontario event this week, and I had an amazing time.
I plan on making Canadian events a tradition- thanks for having me! :)
SarahBeth
10-03-2013, 19:49
Lol thanks, we've got two more regionals to go so don't count us out yet! There is a long list of improvments to hash out over the next week and a bit before Boston. The team is very determined to make this year "Their" year to win.
Unfortunately we don't have any data posted specifically on how it works but I've got a pile of on-board GoPro video which should show the hardware in action. I'll try to get something posted soon. In the mean time, the reveal video one of our members made has some footage of our practice bot climbing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LFh7FpmcQk&feature=youtu.be
Check us out on Facebook for updates. "Cybergnomes Robotics FRC Team 2013"
That video is great, I do love it! And your climber is very very similar to the one that our team talked about building originally and then ended up going in a different direction. I'm really looking forward to seeing it in action in Boston. :)
PayneTrain
10-03-2013, 21:33
Atonomous is obviously frustrated.
...
I definitely agree with your post. While I think the Wild Card system might seem like a godsend to great but not super-elite teams in your province, there is still more work to be done. Since FRC has ballooned, a lot of quirks have been found in the regional system that are more like drawbacks.
Not to make this "about me", but regional sizes are not fixed, so you can have regionals as small as, let's say, 32 or 35 teams, or as big as 65 teams. An area that has two or more smaller regionals benefits more than one big regional. However, the benefit is "neutralized" when the super-elites sign up for all of the smaller regionals in that area.
I know the "it's not about the robots" police might attack me for talking about the way we hand out chamiponship bids, but Championships is harder to get into now, and the event itself is about more than the robots. Not every team should go, but plenty of teams that are deserving of a spot have been left out to dry by fitting the square peg that is the traditional regional system into the circular, eye-of-a-needle sized hole that is a spot for a team at CMP.
Would this be a place to ask why Ontario has never moved into a district system? It could even be an open district system, and maybe allow for cross pollination with FIM, NEFIRST, etc...
Would this be a place to ask why Ontario has never moved into a district system? It could even be an open district system, and maybe allow for cross pollination with FIM, NEFIRST, etc...
So far as I know, this is in the works, and the cross-pollination thing would be more possible once the district model is adopted in more places.
Steven Donow
10-03-2013, 21:43
So far as I know, this is in the works, and the cross-pollination thing would be more possible once the district model is adopted in more places.
Definitely; I think as of now the issue of cross-pollination is simply not there due to the physical distance of FIM and MAR. This will all change once Canada enters the District system as well as when NEFIRST(that is the correct name, right?) makes the switch.
Then get out there, in the community, and raise some money! These teams have worked hard to get to where they are, and you have the ability to do the same, with a lot of hard work and dedication. A really good post I saw a while back from a member of 973 (I believe, and I wish I could find it) recalled when they really kicked it into high gear and became the force they are today. You can make up ground and compete with these guys, as long as you don't spend your time complaining about how you can't.
I think this is the post (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=983372&postcount=24) and thread to which you refer. It is one of those threads that needs extraction and study at team meetings. At least at those team meetings at which there is consensus about the possibility of learning something from other teams.
PVCpirate
11-03-2013, 00:14
Its just unfortunate they restricted it to "Has already won a 2013 regional" and not "Already qualified for CMP on a merit-based invitation". It means that 1241 and 4343 making Finalist Captain and Finalist 1st pick at GTRE this weekend, eventually being defeated by the "already qualified as 2012 Einstein Robots" 1114 and 2056, aren't invited to CMP.
It doesn't change your point, but I think your first statement in quotes should read "Has already qualified for CMP in 2013." (meaning winning say Chairman's at one regional and then winning a second regional opens a wildcard slot at the second regional)
Atonomous is obviously frustrated..
Totally agree with this post. The reality of the trickle-down CMP qualifying hasn't hit me yet, but once it does I think it'll make competition in Ontario much more fun. Having been in FIRST since 2003, the idea of anyone but 1114, (excellent robot), and (24th-best robot) qualifying for champs on robot performance seems totally alien. It was discouraging trying to build a better robot, knowing that every improvement that takes you above 24th-best is likely to decrease your chances of CMP participation.
Combined with the blue banners brought home by travelling Ontario teams like 610, and Canada/Ontario should be very well represented at CMP this year :-)
Nothing in this post should be taken as a knock against 1114 and 2056. They're free to be unstoppably awesome each year, and now the rest of us in Ontario can also be rewarded for our intermittently-stoppable awesomeness too.
Anyone happen to know if or when 2056 plans on releasing the information about, IIRC, Adversity? I'd love to get some specs on it.
Taylor Nicholson
12-03-2013, 13:11
Anyone happen to know if or when 2056 plans on releasing the information about, IIRC, Adversity? I'd love to get some specs on it.
I believe their robot name is "Face". This is following 1114 ("B.A. Baracus") and 4334 ("Murdock").
Do Do Dooooo, Do Do Dooo #ehteamforever
I believe their robot name is "Face". This is following 1114 ("B.A. Baracus") and 4334 ("Murdock").
Do Do Dooooo, Do Do Dooo #ehteamforever
I thought I saw the name Adversity on FB
I thought I saw the name Adversity on FB
The team may be facing some adverse times trying to name the robot...heyyo
2185Bilal
14-03-2013, 23:03
their name is Adversity, atleast that is what it says on their robot
I was torn among watching WPI for the teams coming to Hartford; watching GTRE for the amazing performances there; and repair of mailbox damaged during recent snowstorm.
I thought I saw a 100-pt climb total for one of the matches. A 30 and two 10s on each side.
yes there was. see attached screencap . note the final score was listed as 211-74 for this match.
Yipyapper
15-03-2013, 15:27
yes there was. see attached screencap . note the final score was listed as 211-74 for this match.
And a single tear was shed for the blue alliance.
We knew we weren't comming out of that one long before the scores went up. The alliance went into that round with the goal of putting on a show and completing a double 30 pt climb. Even though we didn't pull it off, judging by the noise of the crowd in our on-board video, the valiant efforts of 2994 didn't dissappoint!
Here are some photos from the event that I took - http://tinyurl.com/bhqv6tf
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